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Ok so we know that a lot of our old models that we have or had conversions for have gone. Vanished due to the no model rule. We also know that the codex cycle is nearing an end with what, 2 or 3 Codex's left? So what happens for the next cycle of codex's?

In my personal opinion I think they have deliberately done this, due to a lot of the focus the design team must have on the Sisters of Battle release (because lets be realistic, they have to re-do a whole range which isn't quick nor easy) and so have not had much, if any time to update all the Finecast kits to plastic or make some of these index units into a standard model. I think to keep a momentum for the next cycle of codex's, in addition to updating the Finecast stuff, they will also bring back our old units with a standard model, but not all of them at once. I think it will take two codex cycles and an edition update to bring everything back. My only exception to my idea is that Primaris will obviously get more model range (most likely CC options).

What do you think will happen in the next codex cycle?

Of course they aren't going to bring back index entries to the codex. The entire point was to transition to a strict "No model, No rules" environment. The indexes will be removed from matched play in due course. The only way an index entry will get a codex one is if GW release a kit for it.

I very much doubt any of the dropped Marine options will come back - any future Marine releases will be Primaris marines.

For everyone else, who knows? It's possible that GW will try to revisit old options with new model ranges. It's equally possible that they'll decide that since those options are gone anyway, they might as well just focus on completely new stuff.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Of course they aren't going to bring back index entries to the codex. The entire point was to transition to a strict "No model, No rules" environment. The indexes will be removed from matched play in due course. The only way an index entry will get a codex one is if GW release a kit for it.

He's talking about releasing new versions of models that lost rules. So, a new Rough Rider kit for example. Also, potentially updating eldar aspects while they're at it.

Anyway, I think the success or failure of the sisters reboot will make or break any major push to update older ranges..

The ork codex was pretty much the writing on the wall. They got new "buggie" units that were not the same as any of the older ones and had a ton of options trimmed. The kit bash and custom faction got slaughtered in it's codex release. It's beyond clear at this point GW wants a smaller range with less options for all factions.

I'd thoroughly expect that when an 8.5 or 9th edition comes along, all of those orphaned Index entries will disappear for good, along with the Indexes, when new codexes come out. So enjoy your Space Marine Apothecary on a bike while you can...

The official "banning" of index books in matched play is inevitable. But outside of a specific Autarch load out, or SM biker character.. how many people realistically still take entries out of the index?

All I ever see it used for is to abuse unit load outs and taking a mix of index/codex entries.

Jump priests. BA should have jump priest, but the codex doesn't. And the honor guard goes away. I'm not using these units anyway, but it's still annoying.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
The official "banning" of index books in matched play is inevitable. But outside of a specific Autarch load out, or SM biker character.. how many people realistically still take entries out of the index?

All I ever see it used for is to abuse unit load outs and taking a mix of index/codex entries.

Orks? A huge number of units and options didn't make the cut, including some of the most iconic and popular choices. Big Mek with kff, mega armor warboss, warboss on bike (or anyone on bike), and that's just the HQs. All of my dreads will have technically illegal loadouts when the index dies. A couple of dozen artillery pieces are in the same boat. All my kommando squads, too. The list goes on.

What's worse is that most of these had official models. Some of them are even still for sale from fw (biker boss and kommando weapons, for example, you can buy right now).

Orks took it far worse, I'd say. Although the BA honor guard DID have a kit circa 3rd ed.

Campaign books and models related to said campaign

For instance Blood angels VS tyranids might be melee inceptors and actual shrikes

Unpopular opinion, but having options in the codex that aren't in the kits is awful. It's deeply annoying to have to cobble together some nonsense out of spare sprue parts or whatever just because they don't have las/plas turrets in the box.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to actually put all the crap the units say they have in the box with how stupidly expensive these things are. Kitbashing should be something optional you do for fun, not something that's mandatory to get the most out of your model. At that points it's basically just putting paid DLC, that GW don't even see the profit from, into the game out of sheer spite.

Now if they cut something that used to have a model because the kit they made to replace it wasn't thought out well enough, they can go feth themselves.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Campaign books and models related to said campaign

For instance Blood angels VS tyranids might be melee inceptors and actual shrikes

This is how I'm expecting them to release new models going forward. Have them exclusive to a battle box for a period of time and then when the next codex update rolls around release them as a standalone kit and include their rules into the codex (assuming they don't already have rules and are just a kit update).

Hi, I’m a noob on this forum so would like to take chance to say helllo. That chaplain marine with the electric blue lightening I just saw is Golden Demon quality imho! Now I just want to firstly ask, what is the no model rule? Does that mean we cannot do minor converts to an existing piece? That absolutely sucks if so and completely ruins thoughts and creativity. My main question is this. I’m working through the hardback rule book v.8, I have 3 indexes. I really want to field a army of 3 marine squads, mk 6 armour and also a small detachment of Adeptus Soritas. I hope there’s gonna be a lot more fluff on these angels of death and new models that make them look more “pretty and feminine.” The female form is beautiful and this should be reflected in the models citadel sculpt. I do not think I’m being derogatory towards females, much the reverse. I have plenty of girlfriends who feel the same way. Banshees looked great and no one complained. I hope they make some fairer looking models as that would be a great challenge. In new poses and not just the same metal ones. Does anyone know if any of my wishes will be answered, and again I have the utmost respect for women, it would be great to have some deeper lore and fairer looking models. Also I’d like them to fight with my 3 squads of original mk 6, crimson fists, mabey even be my hq. Replies appreciated, thoughts. Many thanks. blanco77

blancosevenseven wrote:
Hi, I’m a noob on this forum so would like to take chance to say helllo. That chaplain marine with the electric blue lightening I just saw is Golden Demon quality imho! Now I just want to firstly ask, what is the no model rule? Does that mean we cannot do minor converts to an existing piece? That absolutely sucks if so and completely ruins thoughts and creativity.

"No Model - No Rule" refers to GW's increasing practice of only publishing official rules for models they actively sell, i.e. what you can buy from their webstore right now. Any legacy units or previous "conversion only" pieces that they don't have an actual model, won't appear in the codex. For example Apothecary on a bike.

Taking an existing model, and converting it to be more individual, but using the normal datasheet rules that model is supposed to represent is perfectly fine - and something I greatly encourage!

Just a quick thought. What if you could get your army signed off by Games Worshop themselves so as to receive a certificate? Proving that the army is true enough to the lore. Ie no Gretchen carrying D Cannons! Or what ever the equivalent is now. You could then have a GW certified army and avoid arguments. My dad was a model engineer and had to gave his boiler certified before it was safe for use. Just a thought, it would be a great two way dialogue, enriching the hobby. Store managers could be given the power to issue certificates of fitness and judge points wise wether it was fairly balance. I miss compendium!

The sheer scope of players submitting lists to GW for a certificate would be a logistical nightmare.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

blancosevenseven wrote:
Hi, I’m a noob on this forum so would like to take chance to say helllo. That chaplain marine with the electric blue lightening I just saw is Golden Demon quality imho! Now I just want to firstly ask, what is the no model rule? Does that mean we cannot do minor converts to an existing piece? That absolutely sucks if so and completely ruins thoughts and creativity.

"No Model - No Rule" refers to GW's increasing practice of only publishing official rules for models they actively sell, i.e. what you can buy from their webstore right now. Any legacy units or previous "conversion only" pieces that they don't have an actual model, won't appear in the codex. For example Apothecary on a bike.

Taking an existing model, and converting it to be more individual, but using the normal datasheet rules that model is supposed to represent is perfectly fine - and something I greatly encourage!

Thanks for your reply, no medic on a bike? That’s ridiculous! You used to have a medic in a rhino option. Why are they ruining this game?? I love the war gear lists. You could spend a day prior, exchange army lists beforehand and have the best battles. Release a kids version if you must but this is getting stupid.

I find it amusing that every time people get salty about GW's "No model - No rule" policy that everyone conveniently forgets the reason for it becoming a thing is the chapter house debacle after they made what they called "Games Workshop tervigon conversion kits" and "Games Workshop space wolf thunderwolf calvary". The resulting lawsuit making it so if GW wanted to protect it's IP it couldn't put stuff in a codex that didn't have a model.

Really hope they make new kits for Chaos characters on Daemonic Mounts. We got the Discs with Tzeentch so hopeful that the others come with WE and EC books

Next wave of codex means 9th edition. Too soon to predict what will be GW's politics in the future.

For orks I can say that the lack of options will reduce their sales. I hope they'll notice that and they add to next codex options and units that must be kitbashed or converted to use them. SW codex still have several units, expecially HQs, that must be converted/kitbashed because there is no official model. Basically with the generic SM commander you can assemble any sort of HQ now, but you may also buy a TWC kit just for making 1+ HQs.

A small handful of Index models may eventually return - but most will not. Space Marines for instance, will not. They'll be Primaris or nothing.

You'll never get another Warboss on a bike for Orks - you have that new Killa-Trike-Stabb-Blasta-Mega-Bike or whatever the hell it is.

Of course, none of this matters if you play casually or narratively. You're not beholden to GW or a TO deciding whether or not you can use an index. Hell, in my local group we let most common sense things fly. I have a buddy who runs Rough Riders and we let him use Guard orders since they would have had access to them if they were in the codex (this is a unit I could see being re-done when they finally re-do the basic guard Infantry kits). We also let him take officers on horseback for an additional 10 points, etc.

Want your Primaris lieutenant or captain to have actual wargear? Go for it. In our group if you want to buy some common sense wargear, just do it and pay the appropriate points. It doesn't ruin the game...at all. I know I harp on it frequently, but it makes me feel bad for the people are solely tournament gamers. You're stuck playing such a tiny, overly limited sliver of the game. 40K can be as good, logical, or balanced as you want to make it with very minimal effort. But that's not an option for people who are strictly in the game for tournament gaming.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Of course they aren't going to bring back index entries to the codex. The entire point was to transition to a strict "No model, No rules" environment. The indexes will be removed from matched play in due course. The only way an index entry will get a codex one is if GW release a kit for it.

And even then, they might just call it a Primaris Thriator-Pattern Astartes Captain on Cyber-Bike(tm) and give him a fixed loadout so you can't use your old model.

You know, like the Deffkilla Wartrike.

Orktavius wrote:
I find it amusing that every time people get salty about GW's "No model - No rule" policy that everyone conveniently forgets the reason for it becoming a thing is the chapter house debacle after they made what they called "Games Workshop tervigon conversion kits" and "Games Workshop space wolf thunderwolf cavalry". The resulting lawsuit making it so if GW wanted to protect it's IP it couldn't put stuff in a codex that didn't have a model.

Because GW had the wrong people in that courtcase, we all lost out. They should have released the missing options themselves, and the 3rd-party model companies would have had to adjust to keep up.
Instead, they dropped everything they didn't have models for, and a huge amount they did have, and cut the rules to match.
There's nothing stopping GW releasing the missing stuff with codex-cards or PDFs, but they generally aren't.

ERJAK wrote:
Unpopular opinion, but having options in the codex that aren't in the kits is awful. It's deeply annoying to have to cobble together some nonsense out of spare sprue parts or whatever just because they don't have las/plas turrets in the box.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to actually put all the crap the units say they have in the box with how stupidly expensive these things are. Kitbashing should be something optional you do for fun, not something that's mandatory to get the most out of your model. At that points it's basically just putting paid DLC, that GW don't even see the profit from, into the game out of sheer spite.

Now if they cut something that used to have a model because the kit they made to replace it wasn't thought out well enough, they can go feth themselves.

I kind of understand where you are coming from for something like the Las/Plas turret, which doesn’t have an obvious starting point and takes a fair bit of planning and chopping to achieve, but a SM Apothecary on bike is literally “glue a different torso, head and arm onto the bike”. No cutting, planning or any real modelling skill, it’s just using the flexibility and interchangeability that was designed into the kits from the beginning (and used to actually be a selling point for GW, because you need to buy two kits instead of one). And don’t get me started on things like the Grey Knights ghost knight commander and retinue, who disappeared right at the start of this policy, when the only thing you needed to do to make them was a different paint job!

As for the next round of codices, I think they’ll be adding new forces / sub forces into the game before going back to index models. We know that SoB are on the way and given the new design traitor guardsmen in Blackstone Fortress, I’d give you good odds that renegades & heretics army is on the way, similar to Genestealer Cults (i.e. a new infantry kit, couple of characters, and an upgrade sprue to allow you to use IG vehicles). After that, maybe Ynnari? They’re an interesting new faction, that currently doesn’t have any of their own models really and would allow them to do new Eldar stuff without getting muddled up with the existing range.

GSC and SoBs are next as stated.
I'd wager a redo of the SM codex is coming or maybe a 100% Primaris Codex.
After that I think we'll see several campaign style books/sets and then 9th will drop.
Absolutely cant see 8ths codexes getting done again within its lifespan.

 Eldarain wrote:
Really hope they make new kits for Chaos characters on Daemonic Mounts. We got the Discs with Tzeentch so hopeful that the others come with WE and EC books

Same here. Still have to paint my amateurishly-kitbashed juggerlord. Would love it if he could charge into battle along with a unit or two of jugger-mounted berzerkers too.

Not sure my regular opponent would feel the same.

 Ratius wrote:
Absolutely cant see 8ths codexes getting done again within its lifespan.

After 2-3 waves of new models, I expect they'll redo a codex to merge-in the FAQs and erratae.

Orktavius wrote:
I find it amusing that every time people get salty about GW's "No model - No rule" policy that everyone conveniently forgets the reason for it becoming a thing is the chapter house debacle after they made what they called "Games Workshop tervigon conversion kits" and "Games Workshop space wolf thunderwolf calvary". The resulting lawsuit making it so if GW wanted to protect it's IP it couldn't put stuff in a codex that didn't have a model.

They could put it in the Index but not the Codex, huh? Come on, at least think things through before you go parroting blatantly obvious nonsense.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
I find it amusing that every time people get salty about GW's "No model - No rule" policy that everyone conveniently forgets the reason for it becoming a thing is the chapter house debacle after they made what they called "Games Workshop tervigon conversion kits" and "Games Workshop space wolf thunderwolf calvary". The resulting lawsuit making it so if GW wanted to protect it's IP it couldn't put stuff in a codex that didn't have a model.

They could put it in the Index but not the Codex, huh? Come on, at least think things through before you go parroting blatantly obvious nonsense.

The index is literally a PR stunt, nothing more. The only reason it exists is because Kirby got the shaft and they are trying to compromise between not (overly) pissing off the playerbase while also keeping the lawyers happy. If Kirby was still at the helm I would bet you my left foot the Indexes would not have been released, or released with the No Model No Rules mantra.