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I think most are in agreement about primaris. Its gw trying to get in on the true scale movement, which makes sense. But just make new marine models, don't try and mush a new story into it...

Not enough dogs.

Cyber mastiff?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could give it a machine spirit to match your favourite dogs personality.

It's a small one, but the fused rib cage of space marines deeply bothers me. They wouldn't be able to breath or bend over, and would be much easier to break. If it was something more like overlapping, segmented plates I think I'd be okay with that. As it stands, the space marines have more in common with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles than humans.

Returning Loyal Primarchs. I'm all cool with Daemon Primarchs, but the loyalist heroes should stay dead.

Primaris bug me.

The shift in atmosphere and focus between the Oldcrons and Newcrons.

Grey Knights being playable as an army.

The Jury is out on the cicatkjhfkjdhdf maledictum(?). The Eye of Terror was awesome just as is (was).

The Horus Heresey in novel form. Imo it was better off as whispers and legends.

Edit:
The obsession with "bigness" in general. "These super warriors are taller than these other super warriors, who are even biggerer than these super warriors!" Even, or maybe especially the Primarchs. I'd rather they just be marine-sized and hyper skilled-strong-tough-smart etc. Like Paul Muad'dib isn't awesome because he grew to 12 feet tall. There's something really disappointingly childish about the whole size obsession.

The Tyranids having hooves; it just doesn't look right to me.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
The Tyranids having hooves; it just doesn't look right to me.

I imagine it is an attempt to move the visuals away from space dinosaurs.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The distinction could be 'have we had multiple instances reported of these Spirits actively trying to kill us, known malfunctions aside'?

Like most heresies, it probably often boils down to "I'm clearly not a heretic, so what I say must be right. You disagree, therefore you're a heretic". It's up there with "this? No, I didn't invent this. It's an old STC pattern I found down the back of my sock drawer - been there for millennia, so it must be OK". A very similar excuse to the one lots of gamers use; "these? No, dear, they're not new. I've had them for ages, you've just not seen them".

 amazingturtles wrote:
Not enough dogs.

Me want much gud dogo.

I would agree with Bobthehero about the one upping game of Space Marines too.

Am I one of the few that like new crons? I love the ability to have 'your dudes' now, and that all the necrons are unique. I've always hated the idea of an 'unknown horror' like Oldcrons/Tyranids.

Anyway, throw my hat in for Guilliman coming back and Primaris.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Machine Spirits are a key part of the background. They serve to demonstrate just how little man's technology is understood. To us, it's just a computer programme, albeit a sophisticated one.

All serves to show just how pig ignorant even the higher ups in the Mechanicus are, and how doomed the whole thing is.

There's also the possibility that the Machine Spirits in certain machines (such as Titans, where the Princeps has to actively dominate it) may be previously sentient designs that have been lobotomised to prevent too much independent thought and action.

The background I dislike is more a matter of exclusion than inclusion, and that's The Dark Mechanicum (or indeed, The Mechanicum, given the loyalist version was reorganised and rebranded during the Heresy).

They're such a crucial part of the renegade war machine, yet we know next to nothing about them. We know they deal with marrying Daemons to Technology. We know they trade in slaves and souls. But that's about it.

Given a large chunk of the reason to side with Horus was a lifting of a great many restrictions, where's the pay off? Where's the hideous gribbly nasties produced from their unholy research and development? Because to be honest, the smattering of Daemon Engines (many of which are actually made in Godly Foundries), there's not an awful lot to show for it.

I personally envisage them as somewhere between demented Mekboy, and well learned Techpriest. Always tinkering. Always pushing what's possible. Capable, but possibly uninterested, in creating mass production, instead favouring one-offs by their nature.

They play an important role for the renegade chapters and legions, yet the background just doesn't properly reflect it.

Their actions also go someway to explaining why Renegades don't keep Imperial tech around. In my head canon, they're forcibly stripped of it. Thunder Hammers, Stormshields, Landspeeders, Assault Cannons. Anything even vaguely 'modern' is taken as tribute, likely willingly. Yes, an Assault Cannon is a better weapon in a fight to a Reaper Autocannon. But it also requires far, far more maintence to keep it in any semblance of working order. When you're a Renegade Chapter or Company, do you want to be paying the tariff to keep your Landspeeders in the air, or focus on your Predators and Transports? Which can you more readily do without? Which is going to need the least visits to the creepy Renegade Magos? Which is going to incur the least debt? And what does the Dark Mechanicum do with those shiny pretties? Are they stockpiling them? Stripping for parts? Repurposing? What's the power structure on a fallen Forgeworld? How does one attain and retain station? How does it all function?

This all needs to be properly explored within the lore.

It kind of makes sense to me that there isn't tons being pushed out by the Dark Mechanicus, as they have much more limited resources even compared to when they were loyal.

I mean, the Imperium has most of a Galaxy to plunder, while the Dark Mechanicum gets what it gets from tributes and what it can raid itself. So they can put out one super horrible gribbly in the time it takes the Imperium to make ten thousand Baneblades or Titans.

Sir Heckington wrote:
Am I one of the few that like new crons? I love the ability to have 'your dudes' now, and that all the necrons are unique. I've always hated the idea of an 'unknown horror' like Oldcrons/Tyranids.

I do prefer the Newcron since, indeed, the oldcrons were basically just metal Tyranids, but with crappier models (especially at the time). Plus, you can still play near mindless killing machine necrons if you consider destroyers.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
The Tyranids having hooves; it just doesn't look right to me.

I imagine it is an attempt to move the visuals away from space dinosaurs.

Mixing the modern xenomorph design with some dinosaur aesthetics I think could look really cool.

Sir Heckington wrote:
Am I one of the few that like new crons? I love the ability to have 'your dudes' now, and that all the necrons are unique. I've always hated the idea of an 'unknown horror' like Oldcrons/Tyranids.

I think a combination of both makes for the best version. Necron lords who have gone completely insane from their consciousness being stuffed into a machine and then living for a couple millennia. Using technology we couldn't hope to understand. That makes an intimidating foe that stands out from the other races.

Easy. Captain Cortez captured by Dark Eldar. What REALLY pisses me off other than the fact that Cortez would probably have beat the whole damn raiding force with nothing more than a ball peen hammer and a case of Schlitz is that the reason for making that story canon is because Dave Thomas from GW Aus (if memory serves) got his converted Cortez model captured in a one-off game. Cortez deserves better.

I'm sure I can think of something better, but for whatever reason could never accept (or take seriously) the Iron Hands battle motto "The Flesh is Weak!"

Seems like its just missing a point. The flesh is weak... but... But what? Is it the enemies flesh? Is it their own flesh? Is this some kind of sicko flaggelation fetish?

Seems more appropriate for the Dark Eldar or Emperors Children.

I mean, compare it to the Iron Warriors battlecry. One sounds determined and strong, the other sounds like some wrist cutters.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm sure I can think of something better, but for whatever reason could never accept (or take seriously) the Iron Hands battle motto "The Flesh is Weak!"

Seems like its just missing a point. The flesh is weak... but... But what? Is it the enemies flesh? Is it their own flesh? Is this some kind of sicko flaggelation fetish?

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, the enemy flesh is weak, because flesh is weak

2) Yes your own flesh is weak, because flesh is weak

in resumé metal and machines are strong, organic matter is weak, less pure and corruptible.

3) Yes, it's totally a sicko flaggelation fetish that first started by uncritical admiration of Ferrus Manus powers derived from his necrodermis arms and later fuelled to insanity fetishism after his death. The Iron Hands needed to be stronger and they were not because their flesh was weak. They needed to be closer to machines.

By Imperial standards, the Iron Hands are bit insane, but not all that much compared to others. A lot of Imperial faction have a sort of fetish fuelled obsession for pain, perfection, purity and/or vengeance. The entire Adpetus Mechanicus shares their's after all.

/joke

Count me in for the Space Wolves being Wolf Wolf of the Wolf Wolf instead of just Space Vikings.

Here's an odd one: while I like the new Scion look, I actually prefer the old Stormtrooper asthetic, and that Cadians had their own version with the Kasrkin.

I don't mind Primaris, but I will agree that they could have been done better.

Some of the comparisons between the stuff available during the Horus Heresy versus actual 40k seems a bit silly to me. I can understand that the tech in the Horus Heresy is worse than the Dark Age of Technology due to cataclysmic events which would cause such a loss. However, the explanation of the tech difference between the Horus Heresy and 40k proper seems to just be "...and then they became hyper religious zealots." Just seems lazy to me.

Tons and tons of shoddy pseudo-scientific explanations. I get it's a fantasy setting and shouldn't be examined too closely for fidelity in that regard, but god I hate how everything is possible and easily explainable with: "oh, it's a genetic mutation". Humans which transform into giant werewolves? Genetic mutation! Chapter of space marines with dragon horns and scales for skin? Genetic mutation! Need to make a superhuman soldier who spits acid and has blood which can corrode steel but not his own blood vessels? Gene seed!


TRIGGER WARNING:


At the risk of sounding conceded, I work in the medical field with specialties in genetics and endocrine regulation. (Ie hormones, growth etc) and the "sciences" being described to write away fantastic biology always makes me laugh/roll my eyes. (I do get it's written by literary authors for children so I don't take it to heart, but it is the silliest aspect of 40K)


1) the GW explanation for why women can't be astartes. Everything I've read on this topic which explains women are genetically incompatible with and reject the primarch gene-seed is truly nonsensical. The whole "gene seed is encoded to male tissues etc." shows a profound lack of understanding of genetics and how the human body works. I think they would have been better off explaining the all male astartes as cultural/martial tradition and left it at that instead of making it a case of gender biological differences. In the real world there is no such thing as male specific tissues other than the genitals. Very little is encoded on the Y chromosome that isn't linked to reproduction and that part of the genome is inactive in all other tissues. Male and female tissues otherwise behave the same way and wouldn't reject gene-seed only because it came from the opposite sex. I think here we are slaves to making up a pseudo scientific explanation instead of them saying, "you know what? We only have male astartes, due to the strict militant fraternal traditions of Terra. It's not impossible to have female astartes, 'its just not done because the Imperium is backwards and stuck in traditions that are millennia old." This would be in my book a much more honest and acceptable explanation.

2) While we are on marine biology here's the kicker: Gene seed organs.

Total unnecessary nonsense in my mind as it really doesn't make astartes any better as soldiers. Let's take a look.

A) Secondary Heart: Supposedly implanted to help pump blood and as a backup in case the other heart fails. Problem is, if the first heart fails and these are on the same circuit, how the hell is the blood gonna pass by the original damaged heart? The valves only respond to pressure and contracture of the muscle and will not keep blood flowing through dead heart and therefore the dead heart will form a stop-cock in circulation and the marine will die anyway. Secondary heart can only work if parallel circuit of blood vessels is also implanted, but this is never mentioned. There's also a mechanical problem with two dissinchronized hearts beating together which may cause aberrant blood flow. It's a real mess; there's a reason mammals haven't evolved multiple hearts.

B) Ossmodula: Implantable device which causes secretion of special Growth Hormone to make human bones to grow fast and strong. Problem is, if you're supplying a hormone all it can do is cause the tissues you already have to respond in the natural way. The hormones activate natural receptors and even a "super hormone" which may have a really high affinity for and bind to the receptor can only do so much. We have a known diseases that affect this pathway. Presuming this is done in young kids it would cause gigantism, which while it would make them larger, it would also wreak havoc on multiple other systems and cause a lot of side effects, notably enlarging organs like the heart, meaning the marine may be prone to heart failure. The added nonsense about a diet of 'ceramic-based" minerals would not cause a stronger skeleton as the lore suggests, as we would have no way to obtain and incorporate said minerals, which are never actually individually named, because that isn't a function of growth hormone but of digestion. (This is roughly analogous to thinking that eating bits of rock will make your bones rock hard) The final bit here is about the rib cage becoming fused into one giant plate which would of course kill the marine as the only way we have of inflating a deflating our lungs other than a diaphragm is mostly reliant on the expansion of the rib cage. (This is why people buried up to their necks in mud die; they can't expant their lungs.)

C) Biscopea: Regulates the Ossomodula above, which is fair. However you're still stuck with all the problems of the Ossmodula.

D) Haemstamen: Supposedly alters blood chemistry to carry more oxygen. While this is fair and practical, we know oxygen carrying capacity of blood falls to hemoglobin. Certain conditions can cause this red-blood-cell-bound protein to hold on to oxygen more or less tightly. (This is referred to as the oxygen dissociation curve) There are risks and benefits to having your blood hold on to oxygen more tightly, most notably that if the hemoglobin holds on to more oxygen it doesn't like to let go of it when it finally gets to the tissues and results in less oxygen delivery to the tissues. This one is never explained so I am gonna let them have it as the idea is a good one and it makes sense, if they are describing some form of modified oxygen carrying protein or a new form of hemoglobin which both holds more oxygen and readily releases it at the target tissues. You get one GW.

E) Larraman's Organ: Essentially an organ that makes cells which enact a new type of blood clotting system. Supposedly the advantage is that the cells form instant clots of scar tissue in seconds and cause almost "instant cessation of bleeding". Well this is a terrible idea as any process in the body is counter-regulated by an opposite process so that it never "runs away". Let's say an astartes gets shot by enemy sniper through the torso. Bullet nicks a major blood vessel, at which point the marine starts bleeding internally. Problem is, this new blood-clotting system sees the damage and does immediate repair but the scar tissue is now blocking the blood vessel downstream. This means essentially you'll be clotting off the arm every time a blood vessel in the arm is hit, which will result in loss of that limb. This "repair" is physiologically worse for the marine than the blood loss that would have resulted had he simply kept his human clotting mechanism.

F) Catalepsan Node: Brain implant which shuts off sections of the brain off at a time so they can rest, allowing marine to stay up late. In theory it seems practical, but problem is that the brain sometimes needs to re synchronize altogether. I'm no neuroscientist but the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with. Because they were vague in their description, and because the brain is maybe the least understood of the body systems, and because they seem to be basing it on natural phenomena that appear in other animals I will let them have this one. You got two GW.

G) Preomnor: A section of the digestive tract before the stomach which breaks down toxins, and rejects materials that would kill that marine. This is good in theory but again shows lack of understanding of digestion. This is before the item eaten is digested by the body. A lot of foods have toxic metabolites; compounds that are only exposed once food has been chemically and mechanically digested. They would have been better off with a new type of liver (Which detoxifies the metabolites of food) It's also said that this organ analyzed food and decided whether to regurgitate or allow it to pass. This implies an autonomous Nervous system independent of the marine's, which means that if the marine eats something that is safe but the organ dislikes he will have no choice but to regurgitate it. In effect if this organ becomes confused (which may happen if marines are eating weird flora/fauna on campaign) it may starve the marine to death.

H) Omophage: An organ that allows marines to gain memories and info on species by eating their flesh. Total nonsense, as memories are not stored in "flesh" but instead in the brain matter of animals. They are not encoded on DNA as GW seems to think, at least not specific memories that can be replayed back like a holo-tape. Even if marines ate the enemy's "brain matter" he'd have no way of accessing and re-assembling a memory from tissue. This may be the worst one of the bunch.

I) Multi-Lung: An extra lung to allow for more breathing. Again, in a confined space of the rib cage you can only have so much stuff. Cramming a third lung into it will not make breathing more efficient, it will decrease the expansion of the primary lung. Not to mention you also have to fit in extra blood vessels going to it from the heart, making a whole lot more tissue necessary. It's also not a good idea as a backup as any insult that penetrates the chest cavity and pops one lung won't have any trouble popping the backup in the same instant.

J) Occulobe: Some kind of obscure neuro-implant which provides hormones and "genetic stimuli" to eyes which makes manipulation of the marine's eyes easier by apothecaries. Allegedly this allows superhuman acuity of sight and seeing in low-light conditions. I'm not qualified to comment on this one but it sounds shoddy as there are no specifics mentioned here. It basically says "some space magic happens here and the marine can see better". There are very few hormonal processes which would cause vision changes, and all of them are pathological, which makes this one very poorly laid out indeed.

K) Lyman's Ear: A mechanica inner ear which makes the marine immune to dizziness. (Remember spinning around in place and stopping and watching the room start to spin?) It also gives them improved hearing. An excellent and practical idea! Question is, why is it only on one side? If only one ear is replaced the marine will still experience the sensation of movement with speed on the other side, but this time it will be worse, because one ear will feel the spin and the other will not. This may lead to "vertigo" or the sensation of the room spinning with every head movement. This is debilitating to the marine. (There's a reason we have TWO inner ears)

L) Sus-an Membrane: A mysterious membrane that wraps the brain and allows gravelly wounded marines to self induce a coma until they recover. This one is practical, the only question is; why does the marine have to undergo major head surgery to achieve something that can be achieved with medication? We can induce medical comas all the time for specifically this reason. This function could be much better served by an automatic drug infusion from the marine's armor right into the blood stream. There's no physiologic reason why one has to have their brain operated on. The other stated purpose of this organ is to "keep the marine's brain alive even with grave wounds." That's not how brain work. If you're bleeding out on the battle field, the only way your brain can survive is to have fresh oxygen rich blood supplied to it. The moment the marine belled out, he will pass out and the brain will die unless necessitated quickly. (Lack of blood flow to brain is what strokes are)

M) Melanochrome: This is said to be a hormonal implant which regulates the skin color of marines. Problem is, the melanin in your skin is produced by cells in your skin to protect your skin from UV rays. It's not centrally controlled by a massive organ like the lore here is suggesting. They alos use this organ as a way of explaining the various skin tones differences between chapters. (eg: Blood angels are paler, and Salamanders are really dark skinned) The problem is the contradiction; if the organ somehow magically controls the skin pigmentation, then it should work for all chapters with this function in mind; meaning blood angels would turn dark immediately when exposed to sun. GW does the cop-out of "genetic mutation" here again. This is not how skin pigmentation works, plain and simple.

N) Oolitic Kidney: In effect a detoxification organ (more akin to liver) not really a kidney. That by itself could be acceptable, but it's said to also regulate the remaining organs and the circulatory system. This is too much work to cram on one organ: it both part of the Digestive, excretory, circulatory, endocrine, and nervous system. Aside from the nightmare of a job somebody would have to wire this thing to every other system either directly through nerves, or distally through hormones. Each time you create new hormones there are downstream effects, you have to look for a checks-and balances system with counter-regulatory hormones. In effect this creates an incredibly complicated organism, where the marine could simply wear a respirator. This also ignores the fact that once toxic gases like Sarin gas enter the body they are doing damage and right away, and by the time they reach this new organ for detox, the marine would be dead anyway.

O) Neuroglottis: Implant in the nasal cavity which somehow allows the marine to tell if food is poisonous or safe to eat. Also enhances his sense of smell. This one is actually acceptable. It begs the question: "What the hell are marines eating all the time that their bodies seem principally designed to reject poisons?" Fun fact; out tongues are designed to prevent us from eating spoiled food; the sour receptors are right at the tip of the tongue so that if you byte into a bacteria-ridden-spoiled carcass (which is very acidic as anyone who has been unfortunate enought to drink spoiled milk can attest) you feel it and spit it out before swallowing. Tis same principal can be amplified here. That's three GW!

P) Mucranoid: Total nonsense right here. Described as something implanted in the central nervous system that causes marines to secrete thick mucus like substance which allows them to survive in stasis/cold environments/vacuum of space. SO much wrong with this glands on the skin will not just secrete magical space goo because you stimulate the CNS. You would have to create a new type of gland, encode it into a type of cell already on the skin, somehow program cell to secrete a brand new type of substance (We assume it's protein based) and somehow you wire this to the nervous system. We are talking here about a massive manipulation of the genome with insertions of new cell types, proteins and neurologic pathways. This won't spontaneously develop if you just implant an organ. (That would be like transplanting a heart into somebody's abdomen and expecting it to somehow link up on it's own with the rest of the organs, create new blood vessels etc. In other words, it makes no sense)

Q) Betcher's Gland: Poison gland which spits corrosive acid which allows marine to disable enemies, and "helps with digestion of hard to digest food". OK.... Somebody was obsessed with Alien when he wrote this one. Problem here I hope is self evident; even if the acid is well stored in durable sacks, every time the marine spits the acid would burn the soft unprotected mucousa of his lips. If he ever gets the bright idea to use it on food he's eating it would literally dissolve his esophagus and stomach killing him. If this acid is strong enough to harm foes, it will certainly harm the food pipe which is in no way special or augmented to accommodate this acidity.

R) Progenoid Gland: Glands which grow chapter gene seed and are harvested to increase gene seed stock. The idea is good and very grimdark; in essence having your warriors serves as incubators and guardians of the genetic material necessary to create the chapter. I'm 100% behind this, it;s a pity the description had to be so riddled with scientific mumbo-jumbo. The organ is described as "looking for" gene seed cells from other organs and creating "germ cells" much like an ovary. Problem is, germ cells aren't necessary in asexual reproduction. They are only needed when sperm and egg cells have to meet and fuse to form a new zygote. The genetic combination of the gene seed is always identical and once assumes always has the full set of genetic material. This could have been better written as a type of "living cell culture", whereby marines are implanted with the progenoid gland already seeded with gene seed, and it being allowed time to naturally grow. This is how I ret-con it in my mind. Close but no cigar here.

S) Black Carapace: Some kind of interface material that wires marine directly to power armor. It could have been written better; even a direct cable that connects to the CNS or brain of the marine and plugs into the power armor would have been more eloquent. The idea of implanting a full carapace "under the skin" makes no sense as you would be in essence interrupting all blood/nerve supply to skin. This would cause skin to slough off. I want to give them this one but it makes no sense.

PRIMARIS ORGANS: (I had high hopes they would at least make the newer organs a bit more plausible but alas)

T) Sinew Coils: Metallic fibers around sinews said to give Primaris super strength and extra layer of protection. Again, basic lack of physiology knowledge; sinews don't take part in muscle contraction, they hold muscles anchored and ordered. If your sinews are made incredibly strong and capable of contracting they would cause tremendous muscle damage every time you over-extend. You will in fact tear your muscles apart (look up rhabdomyolysis) and the resulting spill of protein in the blood with cause irreparable kidney damage. It would make a lot more sense to simply have external armor plates.

U) Magnificat: This ia like Ossumodula but turned up to 11. Still won't work for same reason. IF humans simply got bigger and healthier as you gave them more and more growth hormone, we would be a nation of super healthy body-builders. There's huge side effects and early death is one.

V) Belisarian Furnace: An extreme backup gland that kicks the marine's hearts into gear with potent mix of hormones when they are close to death.This is the "stim-pack" the marine's body auto-applies. Problem is, how would the body know when to apply this? Surely it can't be triggered by first bout of adrenaline, heart rate or other vitals? It makes sense if the cogitator in the power armor recognized failing vitals and auto-administered a dose, but that's not the case. I'll still give it to them as it's not a violation of basic biology. That's four GW!



So here we are 5 of the 24 which are kind of plausible, and the remainder which make me laugh. Again, please don't take this seriously, this was an exercise of self-indulgence for me. Again, apologies if I sound conceded.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:
Am I one of the few that like new crons? I love the ability to have 'your dudes' now, and that all the necrons are unique. I've always hated the idea of an 'unknown horror' like Oldcrons/Tyranids.

I think a combination of both makes for the best version. Necron lords who have gone completely insane from their consciousness being stuffed into a machine and then living for a couple millennia. Using technology we couldn't hope to understand. That makes an intimidating foe that stands out from the other races.

I like aspects of the new stuff, and while technically both interpretations can still exist, the emphasis on the newcron-esque flavor bugs me. And the loss of Pariahs.

The fact that Necrons got degraded also really bugs me. Base Warrior had a 3+ save, Flayed Ones had a 3+ save. Immortals had a T5 and were arguably some of the best infantry in the game during 3rd/4th.

@Hive City Dweller

You sir deserve an exalt for this dissection of the many, many problems of Space Marine anathomy, but I think you forgot the fused rib-cage which would prevent breathing and augment the chances of overheating and also make Space Marines stiff as feth which isn't that practical when you are supposed to fight. You need to be strong, but also supple to be a good fighter.

epronovost wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm sure I can think of something better, but for whatever reason could never accept (or take seriously) the Iron Hands battle motto "The Flesh is Weak!"

Seems like its just missing a point. The flesh is weak... but... But what? Is it the enemies flesh? Is it their own flesh? Is this some kind of sicko flaggelation fetish?

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, the enemy flesh is weak, because flesh is weak

2) Yes your own flesh is weak, because flesh is weak

in resumé metal and machines are strong, organic matter is weak, less pure and corruptible.

3) Yes, it's totally a sicko flaggelation fetish that first started by uncritical admiration of Ferrus Manus powers derived from his necrodermis arms and later fuelled to insanity fetishism after his death. The Iron Hands needed to be stronger and they were not because their flesh was weak. They needed to be closer to machines.

By Imperial standards, the Iron Hands are bit insane, but not all that much compared to others. A lot of Imperial faction have a sort of fetish fuelled obsession for pain, perfection, purity and/or vengeance. The entire Adpetus Mechanicus shares their's after all.

/joke

To be fair to the Iron Hands, their opinion on flesh and the benefits of mechanical augmentation are functionally identical to that of the Mechanicum. It's not exactly unique to the chapter.

At the risk of sounding conceded, I work in the medical field with specialties in genetics and endocrine regulation. (Ie hormones, growth etc) and the "sciences" being described to write away fantastic biology always makes me laugh/roll my eyes. (I do get it's written by literary authors for children so I don't take it to heart, but it is the silliest aspect of 40K)

Well written and interesting post but you sure as hell dont need a degree in science/medicine to pick apart the craziness of marine biology

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
Tons and tons of shoddy pseudo-scientific explanations. I get it's a fantasy setting and shouldn't be examined too closely for fidelity in that regard, but god I hate how everything is possible and easily explainable with: "oh, it's a genetic mutation". Humans which transform into giant werewolves? Genetic mutation! Chapter of space marines with dragon horns and scales for skin? Genetic mutation! Need to make a superhuman soldier who spits acid and has blood which can corrode steel but not his own blood vessels? Gene seed!


TRIGGER WARNING:


At the risk of sounding conceded, I work in the medical field with specialties in genetics and endocrine regulation. (Ie hormones, growth etc) and the "sciences" being described to write away fantastic biology always makes me laugh/roll my eyes. (I do get it's written by literary authors for children so I don't take it to heart, but it is the silliest aspect of 40K)


1) the GW explanation for why women can't be astartes. Everything I've read on this topic which explains women are genetically incompatible with and reject the primarch gene-seed is truly nonsensical. The whole "gene seed is encoded to male tissues etc." shows a profound lack of understanding of genetics and how the human body works. I think they would have been better off explaining the all male astartes as cultural/martial tradition and left it at that instead of making it a case of gender biological differences. In the real world there is no such thing as male specific tissues other than the genitals. Very little is encoded on the Y chromosome that isn't linked to reproduction and that part of the genome is inactive in all other tissues. Male and female tissues otherwise behave the same way and wouldn't reject gene-seed only because it came from the opposite sex. I think here we are slaves to making up a pseudo scientific explanation instead of them saying, "you know what? We only have male astartes, due to the strict militant fraternal traditions of Terra. It's not impossible to have female astartes, 'its just not done because the Imperium is backwards and stuck in traditions that are millennia old." This would be in my book a much more honest and acceptable explanation.

2) While we are on marine biology here's the kicker: Gene seed organs.

Total unnecessary nonsense in my mind as it really doesn't make astartes any better as soldiers. Let's take a look.

A) Secondary Heart: Supposedly implanted to help pump blood and as a backup in case the other heart fails. Problem is, if the first heart fails and these are on the same circuit, how the hell is the blood gonna pass by the original damaged heart? The valves only respond to pressure and contracture of the muscle and will not keep blood flowing through dead heart and therefore the dead heart will form a stop-cock in circulation and the marine will die anyway. Secondary heart can only work if parallel circuit of blood vessels is also implanted, but this is never mentioned. There's also a mechanical problem with two dissinchronized hearts beating together which may cause aberrant blood flow. It's a real mess; there's a reason mammals haven't evolved multiple hearts.

B) Ossmodula: Implantable device which causes secretion of special Growth Hormone to make human bones to grow fast and strong. Problem is, if you're supplying a hormone all it can do is cause the tissues you already have to respond in the natural way. The hormones activate natural receptors and even a "super hormone" which may have a really high affinity for and bind to the receptor can only do so much. We have a known diseases that affect this pathway. Presuming this is done in young kids it would cause gigantism, which while it would make them larger, it would also wreak havoc on multiple other systems and cause a lot of side effects, notably enlarging organs like the heart, meaning the marine may be prone to heart failure. The added nonsense about a diet of 'ceramic-based" minerals would not cause a stronger skeleton as the lore suggests, as we would have no way to obtain and incorporate said minerals, which are never actually individually named, because that isn't a function of growth hormone but of digestion. (This is roughly analogous to thinking that eating bits of rock will make your bones rock hard) The final bit here is about the rib cage becoming fused into one giant plate which would of course kill the marine as the only way we have of inflating a deflating our lungs other than a diaphragm is mostly reliant on the expansion of the rib cage. (This is why people buried up to their necks in mud die; they can't expant their lungs.)

C) Biscopea: Regulates the Ossomodula above, which is fair. However you're still stuck with all the problems of the Ossmodula.

D) Haemstamen: Supposedly alters blood chemistry to carry more oxygen. While this is fair and practical, we know oxygen carrying capacity of blood falls to hemoglobin. Certain conditions can cause this red-blood-cell-bound protein to hold on to oxygen more or less tightly. (This is referred to as the oxygen dissociation curve) There are risks and benefits to having your blood hold on to oxygen more tightly, most notably that if the hemoglobin holds on to more oxygen it doesn't like to let go of it when it finally gets to the tissues and results in less oxygen delivery to the tissues. This one is never explained so I am gonna let them have it as the idea is a good one and it makes sense, if they are describing some form of modified oxygen carrying protein or a new form of hemoglobin which both holds more oxygen and readily releases it at the target tissues. You get one GW.

E) Larraman's Organ: Essentially an organ that makes cells which enact a new type of blood clotting system. Supposedly the advantage is that the cells form instant clots of scar tissue in seconds and cause almost "instant cessation of bleeding". Well this is a terrible idea as any process in the body is counter-regulated by an opposite process so that it never "runs away". Let's say an astartes gets shot by enemy sniper through the torso. Bullet nicks a major blood vessel, at which point the marine starts bleeding internally. Problem is, this new blood-clotting system sees the damage and does immediate repair but the scar tissue is now blocking the blood vessel downstream. This means essentially you'll be clotting off the arm every time a blood vessel in the arm is hit, which will result in loss of that limb. This "repair" is physiologically worse for the marine than the blood loss that would have resulted had he simply kept his human clotting mechanism.

F) Catalepsan Node: Brain implant which shuts off sections of the brain off at a time so they can rest, allowing marine to stay up late. In theory it seems practical, but problem is that the brain sometimes needs to re synchronize altogether. I'm no neuroscientist but the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with. Because they were vague in their description, and because the brain is maybe the least understood of the body systems, and because they seem to be basing it on natural phenomena that appear in other animals I will let them have this one. You got two GW.

G) Preomnor: A section of the digestive tract before the stomach which breaks down toxins, and rejects materials that would kill that marine. This is good in theory but again shows lack of understanding of digestion. This is before the item eaten is digested by the body. A lot of foods have toxic metabolites; compounds that are only exposed once food has been chemically and mechanically digested. They would have been better off with a new type of liver (Which detoxifies the metabolites of food) It's also said that this organ analyzed food and decided whether to regurgitate or allow it to pass. This implies an autonomous Nervous system independent of the marine's, which means that if the marine eats something that is safe but the organ dislikes he will have no choice but to regurgitate it. In effect if this organ becomes confused (which may happen if marines are eating weird flora/fauna on campaign) it may starve the marine to death.

H) Omophage: An organ that allows marines to gain memories and info on species by eating their flesh. Total nonsense, as memories are not stored in "flesh" but instead in the brain matter of animals. They are not encoded on DNA as GW seems to think, at least not specific memories that can be replayed back like a holo-tape. Even if marines ate the enemy's "brain matter" he'd have no way of accessing and re-assembling a memory from tissue. This may be the worst one of the bunch.

I) Multi-Lung: An extra lung to allow for more breathing. Again, in a confined space of the rib cage you can only have so much stuff. Cramming a third lung into it will not make breathing more efficient, it will decrease the expansion of the primary lung. Not to mention you also have to fit in extra blood vessels going to it from the heart, making a whole lot more tissue necessary. It's also not a good idea as a backup as any insult that penetrates the chest cavity and pops one lung won't have any trouble popping the backup in the same instant.

J) Occulobe: Some kind of obscure neuro-implant which provides hormones and "genetic stimuli" to eyes which makes manipulation of the marine's eyes easier by apothecaries. Allegedly this allows superhuman acuity of sight and seeing in low-light conditions. I'm not qualified to comment on this one but it sounds shoddy as there are no specifics mentioned here. It basically says "some space magic happens here and the marine can see better". There are very few hormonal processes which would cause vision changes, and all of them are pathological, which makes this one very poorly laid out indeed.

K) Lyman's Ear: A mechanica inner ear which makes the marine immune to dizziness. (Remember spinning around in place and stopping and watching the room start to spin?) It also gives them improved hearing. An excellent and practical idea! Question is, why is it only on one side? If only one ear is replaced the marine will still experience the sensation of movement with speed on the other side, but this time it will be worse, because one ear will feel the spin and the other will not. This may lead to "vertigo" or the sensation of the room spinning with every head movement. This is debilitating to the marine. (There's a reason we have TWO inner ears)

L) Sus-an Membrane: A mysterious membrane that wraps the brain and allows gravelly wounded marines to self induce a coma until they recover. This one is practical, the only question is; why does the marine have to undergo major head surgery to achieve something that can be achieved with medication? We can induce medical comas all the time for specifically this reason. This function could be much better served by an automatic drug infusion from the marine's armor right into the blood stream. There's no physiologic reason why one has to have their brain operated on. The other stated purpose of this organ is to "keep the marine's brain alive even with grave wounds." That's not how brain work. If you're bleeding out on the battle field, the only way your brain can survive is to have fresh oxygen rich blood supplied to it. The moment the marine belled out, he will pass out and the brain will die unless necessitated quickly. (Lack of blood flow to brain is what strokes are)

M) Melanochrome: This is said to be a hormonal implant which regulates the skin color of marines. Problem is, the melanin in your skin is produced by cells in your skin to protect your skin from UV rays. It's not centrally controlled by a massive organ like the lore here is suggesting. They alos use this organ as a way of explaining the various skin tones differences between chapters. (eg: Blood angels are paler, and Salamanders are really dark skinned) The problem is the contradiction; if the organ somehow magically controls the skin pigmentation, then it should work for all chapters with this function in mind; meaning blood angels would turn dark immediately when exposed to sun. GW does the cop-out of "genetic mutation" here again. This is not how skin pigmentation works, plain and simple.

N) Oolitic Kidney: In effect a detoxification organ (more akin to liver) not really a kidney. That by itself could be acceptable, but it's said to also regulate the remaining organs and the circulatory system. This is too much work to cram on one organ: it both part of the Digestive, excretory, circulatory, endocrine, and nervous system. Aside from the nightmare of a job somebody would have to wire this thing to every other system either directly through nerves, or distally through hormones. Each time you create new hormones there are downstream effects, you have to look for a checks-and balances system with counter-regulatory hormones. In effect this creates an incredibly complicated organism, where the marine could simply wear a respirator. This also ignores the fact that once toxic gases like Sarin gas enter the body they are doing damage and right away, and by the time they reach this new organ for detox, the marine would be dead anyway.

O) Neuroglottis: Implant in the nasal cavity which somehow allows the marine to tell if food is poisonous or safe to eat. Also enhances his sense of smell. This one is actually acceptable. It begs the question: "What the hell are marines eating all the time that their bodies seem principally designed to reject poisons?" Fun fact; out tongues are designed to prevent us from eating spoiled food; the sour receptors are right at the tip of the tongue so that if you byte into a bacteria-ridden-spoiled carcass (which is very acidic as anyone who has been unfortunate enought to drink spoiled milk can attest) you feel it and spit it out before swallowing. Tis same principal can be amplified here. That's three GW!

P) Mucranoid: Total nonsense right here. Described as something implanted in the central nervous system that causes marines to secrete thick mucus like substance which allows them to survive in stasis/cold environments/vacuum of space. SO much wrong with this glands on the skin will not just secrete magical space goo because you stimulate the CNS. You would have to create a new type of gland, encode it into a type of cell already on the skin, somehow program cell to secrete a brand new type of substance (We assume it's protein based) and somehow you wire this to the nervous system. We are talking here about a massive manipulation of the genome with insertions of new cell types, proteins and neurologic pathways. This won't spontaneously develop if you just implant an organ. (That would be like transplanting a heart into somebody's abdomen and expecting it to somehow link up on it's own with the rest of the organs, create new blood vessels etc. In other words, it makes no sense)

Q) Betcher's Gland: Poison gland which spits corrosive acid which allows marine to disable enemies, and "helps with digestion of hard to digest food". OK.... Somebody was obsessed with Alien when he wrote this one. Problem here I hope is self evident; even if the acid is well stored in durable sacks, every time the marine spits the acid would burn the soft unprotected mucousa of his lips. If he ever gets the bright idea to use it on food he's eating it would literally dissolve his esophagus and stomach killing him. If this acid is strong enough to harm foes, it will certainly harm the food pipe which is in no way special or augmented to accommodate this acidity.

R) Progenoid Gland: Glands which grow chapter gene seed and are harvested to increase gene seed stock. The idea is good and very grimdark; in essence having your warriors serves as incubators and guardians of the genetic material necessary to create the chapter. I'm 100% behind this, it;s a pity the description had to be so riddled with scientific mumbo-jumbo. The organ is described as "looking for" gene seed cells from other organs and creating "germ cells" much like an ovary. Problem is, germ cells aren't necessary in asexual reproduction. They are only needed when sperm and egg cells have to meet and fuse to form a new zygote. The genetic combination of the gene seed is always identical and once assumes always has the full set of genetic material. This could have been better written as a type of "living cell culture", whereby marines are implanted with the progenoid gland already seeded with gene seed, and it being allowed time to naturally grow. This is how I ret-con it in my mind. Close but no cigar here.

S) Black Carapace: Some kind of interface material that wires marine directly to power armor. It could have been written better; even a direct cable that connects to the CNS or brain of the marine and plugs into the power armor would have been more eloquent. The idea of implanting a full carapace "under the skin" makes no sense as you would be in essence interrupting all blood/nerve supply to skin. This would cause skin to slough off. I want to give them this one but it makes no sense.

PRIMARIS ORGANS: (I had high hopes they would at least make the newer organs a bit more plausible but alas)

T) Sinew Coils: Metallic fibers around sinews said to give Primaris super strength and extra layer of protection. Again, basic lack of physiology knowledge; sinews don't take part in muscle contraction, they hold muscles anchored and ordered. If your sinews are made incredibly strong and capable of contracting they would cause tremendous muscle damage every time you over-extend. You will in fact tear your muscles apart (look up rhabdomyolysis) and the resulting spill of protein in the blood with cause irreparable kidney damage. It would make a lot more sense to simply have external armor plates.

U) Magnificat: This ia like Ossumodula but turned up to 11. Still won't work for same reason. IF humans simply got bigger and healthier as you gave them more and more growth hormone, we would be a nation of super healthy body-builders. There's huge side effects and early death is one.

V) Belisarian Furnace: An extreme backup gland that kicks the marine's hearts into gear with potent mix of hormones when they are close to death.This is the "stim-pack" the marine's body auto-applies. Problem is, how would the body know when to apply this? Surely it can't be triggered by first bout of adrenaline, heart rate or other vitals? It makes sense if the cogitator in the power armor recognized failing vitals and auto-administered a dose, but that's not the case. I'll still give it to them as it's not a violation of basic biology. That's four GW!



So here we are 5 of the 24 which are kind of plausible, and the remainder which make me laugh. Again, please don't take this seriously, this was an exercise of self-indulgence for me. Again, apologies if I sound conceded.

haha this is awesome. except for the fact that youve totally ruined space marines for me now. and also, now I'm waiting for similar responses that I got when I pointed out the flaws in machine spirits inside pieces of equipment that are essentially mechanical parts and electrical systems.

I have to say, all of the time I have spent on this forum over the years, that's probably one of the most interesting things I have ever read. Bravo, sir!

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
1) the GW explanation for why women can't be astartes. Everything I've read on this topic which explains women are genetically incompatible with and reject the primarch gene-seed is truly nonsensical. The whole "gene seed is encoded to male tissues etc." shows a profound lack of understanding of genetics and how the human body works. I think they would have been better off explaining the all male astartes as cultural/martial tradition and left it at that instead of making it a case of gender biological differences. In the real world there is no such thing as male specific tissues other than the genitals. Very little is encoded on the Y chromosome that isn't linked to reproduction and that part of the genome is inactive in all other tissues. Male and female tissues otherwise behave the same way and wouldn't reject gene-seed only because it came from the opposite sex. I think here we are slaves to making up a pseudo scientific explanation instead of them saying, "you know what? We only have male astartes, due to the strict militant fraternal traditions of Terra. It's not impossible to have female astartes, 'its just not done because the Imperium is backwards and stuck in traditions that are millennia old." This would be in my book a much more honest and acceptable explanation.

I just wanted to point out that there is a very specific reason that female astartes are "scientifically impossible" in the setting. The creators of the setting (and most of the community) wanted male-only space marines. "Because it is tradition" even if it is acknowledged as outdated in setting is not an acceptable reason... people would jump all over that and claim that it was glorifying misogyny and that it should be retconned. Stating that gene seed implantation is impossible on females and giving some sort of crap pseudoscience to back that up is an effective way to short-circuit that argument. See? We didn't make marines all men because we are sexist it is because it is impossible in-universe because XYZ.

Personally, I think that making marines all men is about as sexist as making sororitas all women (hint: it isn't). But people like to freak out about that kind of thing and take it way too seriously. Creators should have the freedom to design settings however they wish and not have to face social pressures to "change" things to suit other people's sensibilities. Don't like it? Don't play/watch/consume it.

I've spoken before about my strong sense of suspension of disbelief in other threads. Sure as hell I have put 40k novels down and just stopped reading if I have run across something that has made me say "lol no".

I think they couldve made SM more plausible if the explanation was more along the lines of enhancing them with chemically perfected combinations of steroids and hormones, rather than all the surgeries and extra made up organs you mentioned

Well, it was written in the 80s by someone who was certainly not a biologist. I think a faulty explanation, especially by today's standards, was to be expected.

The point still stands though - women cannot be space marines. Besides, you have sisters of battle. Way more interesting than marines. I mean, they are pure humans who have so much resolve that they get pseudo magical protection. That's pretty neat.

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
Tons and tons of shoddy pseudo-scientific explanations. I get it's a fantasy setting and shouldn't be examined too closely for fidelity in that regard, but god I hate how everything is possible and easily explainable with: "oh, it's a genetic mutation". Humans which transform into giant werewolves? Genetic mutation! Chapter of space marines with dragon horns and scales for skin? Genetic mutation! Need to make a superhuman soldier who spits acid and has blood which can corrode steel but not his own blood vessels? Gene seed!


TRIGGER WARNING:


At the risk of sounding conceded, I work in the medical field with specialties in genetics and endocrine regulation. (Ie hormones, growth etc) and the "sciences" being described to write away fantastic biology always makes me laugh/roll my eyes. (I do get it's written by literary authors for children so I don't take it to heart, but it is the silliest aspect of 40K)

That's the sort of thing I was mentioning above. That's why I prefer it if they just say what the enhancements are, and not the "mechanics" of how they work. If they just say "this organ keeps the Marine's blood flowing for a short while if his heart stops beating" and left it at that, then we can come up with whatever explanation is most plausible (or least implausible).

I think to placate the whole equal opportunities crowd they should just make the sob/SM equivalents, in that they take the children at whatever age, and they split into the relevant branches for training and enhancement.