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 Valkyrie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.

Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.

Then he's not the problem, the problem is you letting him ignore a fundamental rule that's been in place since 4th and letting him reroll everything until he makes the charge.

Are we really criticising someone for deciding not to be TFG? You realise the guy rolled double-1 for the initial charge, right? He's obviously going to want to use the relic reroll with that. Xenomancer did exactly what I (and I assume a large number of other people) would have done and allowed his opponent to go back and rectify an obvious mistake because he forgot about a rule that probably rarely comes up. The fact he rolled one dice first, then the second dice after that isn't relevant when the outcome is the same either way. It sounds like the game hadn't moved on to the Fight phase yet either so there's absolutely nothing affected by letting his opponent use the rule he's just remembered about.

 Stux wrote:
Did you know that Custodes actually have another relic that IS just a 3++ ?

And also storm shields, but GW at least had the restraint not to give them that option on bikes (or rather, didn't have room for them on the sprue).

Slipspace wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.

Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.

Then he's not the problem, the problem is you letting him ignore a fundamental rule that's been in place since 4th and letting him reroll everything until he makes the charge.

Are we really criticising someone for deciding not to be TFG? You realise the guy rolled double-1 for the initial charge, right? He's obviously going to want to use the relic reroll with that. Xenomancer did exactly what I (and I assume a large number of other people) would have done and allowed his opponent to go back and rectify an obvious mistake because he forgot about a rule that probably rarely comes up. The fact he rolled one dice first, then the second dice after that isn't relevant when the outcome is the same either way. It sounds like the game hadn't moved on to the Fight phase yet either so there's absolutely nothing affected by letting his opponent use the rule he's just remembered about.

Honestly that's nowhere near what TFG is. You re-roll once, and it still doesn't come up with what you want. While it's nice that he bent the rules and allowed another re-roll, to not do so is not TFG behaviour and if the Custodian did make the charge you can't then complain that the Relic is broken. It doesn't guarantee a charge, as shown in the OP, it can still fail.

 Valkyrie wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.

Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.

Then he's not the problem, the problem is you letting him ignore a fundamental rule that's been in place since 4th and letting him reroll everything until he makes the charge.

Are we really criticising someone for deciding not to be TFG? You realise the guy rolled double-1 for the initial charge, right? He's obviously going to want to use the relic reroll with that. Xenomancer did exactly what I (and I assume a large number of other people) would have done and allowed his opponent to go back and rectify an obvious mistake because he forgot about a rule that probably rarely comes up. The fact he rolled one dice first, then the second dice after that isn't relevant when the outcome is the same either way. It sounds like the game hadn't moved on to the Fight phase yet either so there's absolutely nothing affected by letting his opponent use the rule he's just remembered about.

Honestly that's nowhere near what TFG is. You re-roll once, and it still doesn't come up with what you want. While it's nice that he bent the rules and allowed another re-roll, to not do so is not TFG behaviour and if the Custodian did make the charge you can't then complain that the Relic is broken. It doesn't guarantee a charge, as shown in the OP, it can still fail.

The custodes player rolled his two dice, failed and knew he needed to re-roll, he didn't know his relic aswell as giving a 3++ also allowed him to reroll charges, so instead if using his free reroll of both dice he paid a CP to reroll 1 dice.
Was presumably checking his codex so when Xeno came back he allowed to reroll the second of the two dice. Hr didn't reroll the same dice twice. In a tournament fine raw don't allow it but against someone learning their army it's just allowing them to correct a mistake a more experienced player wouldn't have made.

Dawn eagles are quite strong and charictors on dawn eagles with the same inevitable relics are basically OP.
The nerf to fly has helpped a bit but it nerfef a lot of collateral damage in the process of addressing an issue that could have been addressed at a more targeted and finessed changes.

Slipspace wrote:
GW really, really needs to stop handing out such good protection to so many characters, I agree. They also need to take a long, hard look at many of their relics because it's laughable how bad some of them are in comparison to others. The Shield Captain is the perfect example of a unit that's gone completely too far in one direction. You don't need T6, W7, 2+ save and a 3++ on top of the protection of being a character and the possibility of a 5+++, that's just insane and leaves very little valid counterplay. Dakka doesn't work because of the high Toughness and low-volume high-damage stuff doesn't work because of the 3++. The major difference between the Shield captain and the Smashcaptain is that the BA Captain is T4 with W5 so you actually can just hose him down with small arms once he's obliterated his target.

Agreed. And this is on top of characters being virtually impossible to target to begin with.

Honestly, I think even 4++ saves should be rare - rather than being the norm.

 skchsan wrote:
Can't reroll a reroll. He had you there.

It's either he rerolls a single dice via Command Reroll or reroll both dice from his relic.

Also, Custodes has a special save against MW, so no, not as effective (maybe a tad bit more useful) as you think it is.

it's like a 6+. I've played against them with psychic heavy armies, it might as well not be there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
GW really, really needs to stop handing out such good protection to so many characters, I agree. They also need to take a long, hard look at many of their relics because it's laughable how bad some of them are in comparison to others. The Shield Captain is the perfect example of a unit that's gone completely too far in one direction. You don't need T6, W7, 2+ save and a 3++ on top of the protection of being a character and the possibility of a 5+++, that's just insane and leaves very little valid counterplay. Dakka doesn't work because of the high Toughness and low-volume high-damage stuff doesn't work because of the 3++. The major difference between the Shield captain and the Smashcaptain is that the BA Captain is T4 with W5 so you actually can just hose him down with small arms once he's obliterated his target.

Agreed. And this is on top of characters being virtually impossible to target to begin with.

Honestly, I think even 4++ saves should be rare - rather than being the norm.

Yes, but you could also rephrase this and say "the main difference between a custode biker captain and a smashcaptain is that the custode biker captain gets 5 S6 AP-3 D3 damage attacks that reroll wounds, and that the Smashcaptain gets 5 S8 AP-3 flat 4 damage attacks with +1 to wound, who can also fight twice and gain D3 attacks such that he can reasonably one-round a knight."

the_scotsman wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Can't reroll a reroll. He had you there.

It's either he rerolls a single dice via Command Reroll or reroll both dice from his relic.

Also, Custodes has a special save against MW, so no, not as effective (maybe a tad bit more useful) as you think it is.

it's like a 6+. I've played against them with psychic heavy armies, it might as well not be there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
GW really, really needs to stop handing out such good protection to so many characters, I agree. They also need to take a long, hard look at many of their relics because it's laughable how bad some of them are in comparison to others. The Shield Captain is the perfect example of a unit that's gone completely too far in one direction. You don't need T6, W7, 2+ save and a 3++ on top of the protection of being a character and the possibility of a 5+++, that's just insane and leaves very little valid counterplay. Dakka doesn't work because of the high Toughness and low-volume high-damage stuff doesn't work because of the 3++. The major difference between the Shield captain and the Smashcaptain is that the BA Captain is T4 with W5 so you actually can just hose him down with small arms once he's obliterated his target.

Agreed. And this is on top of characters being virtually impossible to target to begin with.

Honestly, I think even 4++ saves should be rare - rather than being the norm.

Yes, but you could also rephrase this and say "the main difference between a custode biker captain and a smashcaptain is that the custode biker captain gets 5 S6 AP-3 D3 damage attacks that reroll wounds, and that the Smashcaptain gets 5 S8 AP-3 flat 4 damage attacks with +1 to wound, who can also fight twice and gain D3 attacks such that he can reasonably one-round a knight."

And the shield captain is reliant upon charging to have his re-rolls to wound, charge him with a rhino or some other semi durable unimportant unit and his offensive output falls off pretty sharpish.

If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.

secretForge wrote:

If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.

Translation: Helverins.

Sterling191 wrote:

secretForge wrote:

If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.

Translation: Helverins.

As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!

Jarval wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

secretForge wrote:

If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.

Translation: Helverins.

As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!

My only regret is that the Mechanicum didn't slap autocannons into the sponsons!

Jarval wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

secretForge wrote:

If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.

Translation: Helverins.

As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!

Except you can still hide the dawn eagle three behind anything else due to "Charictor" and neither of those can shoot at them.

Ice_can wrote:

Jarval wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

secretForge wrote:

If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.

Translation: Helverins.

As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!

Except you can still hide the dawn eagle three behind anything else due to "Charictor" and neither of those can shoot at them.

At which point, you're actually complaining about soup, because in a custode army, you actually want to be shooting almost anything else (because everything else has more damage output/point with less durability/point)

Ice_can wrote:

Jarval wrote:

As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!

Except you can still hide the dawn eagle three behind anything else due to "Charictor" and neither of those can shoot at them.

Then you're playing your Helverins wrong. Raven Helverins are damn near flyers in their capacity to put their guns on whatever they damn well please.

Jarval wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

secretForge wrote:

If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.

Translation: Helverins.

As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!

You know you get a 2+ save in cover against them right?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Null Zone is garbage and you can't throw mortal wounds at characters so easily if they're screened.

Plus Jetbikes have enough speed to charge your Librarian and knock it out in a round. Are you a troll or something?

 Xenomancers wrote:

You know you get a 2+ save in cover against them right?

You know Helverins reliably put out close to ten shots per turn with AP and it only takes three of them to go through to kill a zoom cappy right?

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You know you get a 2+ save in cover against them right?

You know Helverins reliably put out close to ten shots per turn with AP and it only takes two of them to go through to kill a zoom cappy right?

Yeah they are great but they just arent great against 2+ saves in cover. They average 8 shots btw. Their biggest weakness is they can't fall back and shoot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Null Zone is garbage and you can't throw mortal wounds at characters so easily if they're screened.

Plus Jetbikes have enough speed to charge your Librarian and knock it out in a round. Are you a troll or something?

Welcome to a page ago, please go read what we all said, it locks down your important units so a MELEE INVUL CHARACTER cant assassinate your important stuff. You know there are also many DE players with 10-20 Grots? Talos? Wracks? with a 4++ too right? It helps against them as well. If you feel its bad then dont use it.

Also stratagems can deal MW's, even if its just a few, many times you need that little extra damage to kill something.

This character you speak of melee'ed his tank... idk about you but if a character is meleeing my back field tank, then i can easily kill it off, even if its a 3++, there is no screens.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Null Zone is garbage and you can't throw mortal wounds at characters so easily if they're screened.

Plus Jetbikes have enough speed to charge your Librarian and knock it out in a round. Are you a troll or something?

More likely a user of custode jetbikes lol. In any case he's still got a 2+ save so it's not like Nullzone is an auto kill ether. Need Ap-3 to bring him to a 5+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Null Zone is garbage and you can't throw mortal wounds at characters so easily if they're screened.

Plus Jetbikes have enough speed to charge your Librarian and knock it out in a round. Are you a troll or something?

Welcome to a page ago, please go read what we all said, it locks down your important units so a MELEE INVUL CHARACTER cant assassinate your important stuff. You know there are also many DE players with 10-20 Grots? Talos? Wracks? with a 4++ too right? It helps against them as well. If you feel its bad then dont use it.

Also stratagems can deal MW's, even if its just a few, many times you need that little extra damage to kill something.

This character you speak of melee'ed his tank... idk about you but if a character is meleeing my back field tank, then i can easily kill it off, even if its a 3++, there is no screens.

Not if it fails it's charge.

If it fails his charge then you have nothing to worry about....... kill the 1 screen it might have then shoot it off the table, its only 7 wounds.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
If it fails his charge then you have nothing to worry about....... kill the 1 screen it might have then shoot it off the table, its only 7 wounds.

Can't really fail charge when you get an icing on top reroll charge relic that ALSO gives you a 3++. It's dumb. Theres an actual relic in the codex that gives a 3++ and nothing else. How can 1 also give reroll charges? Don't say well only jetbike can take it...Only the best option can take the best relic? That's almost the opposite of how it should work.

Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?

FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges

There are lots of good relics for characters.

If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?

I'm a bit shocked by the timing here. Those 3++ Custodes Captains with extra rules bling have been around for months now. I might be the only local Imperial player who doesn't run bike-borne Shield Captains.

The fact that they can't fly over models when they charge now is a big help. Also, iirc their save vs. Mortal Wounds is only a save vs. Psychic Powers. Mortals dealt outside of the psychic phase can't be stopped.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?

FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges

There are lots of good relics for characters.

If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?

Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?

FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges

There are lots of good relics for characters.

If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?

Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!

A Suit of Knives 3++ character has the potential to kill a 30man Ork unit within even attacking... Is that strong enough for you? Sure you need a power/stratagem to help, but can a captain do that? And its less than 100pts.

Before you start talking about nerfing invul saves you might want to reduce the ridiculous overwatch a properly equipped Russ can puke out with Defensive Gunners and the general lethality of shooting (and also assault while we're at it). Models need that 3++ to prevent them from being shot off the board instantly by a 4d3 overcharged plasma + lascannon Russ Executioner that is unchargeable by anything lighter than a Relic Contemptor thanks to Defensive Gunners (or chaff hordes like Boyz or Cultists but you need to be lucky enough to have brought an army that has those units).

And yes I'm -y because my toughest beatsticks get dropped by overwatch on a frighteningly consistent basis.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?

FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges

There are lots of good relics for characters.

If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?

Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!

A Suit of Knives 3++ character has the potential to kill a 30man Ork unit within even attacking... Is that strong enough for you? Sure you need a power/stratagem to help, but can a captain do that? And its less than 100pts.

You mean the Relic where you had to roll a 1 to hit them and then you roll a 2+ for the mortal wound?

So is this 30 Ork Boyz an average or just a BS number you came up with? I'm gonna go with the latter.

No, its in the majority of cases when used in the way he's describing. The number comes from the max size unit - in theory, any size unit that can get into CC would be similarly impacted.

With -4-to-hit, the Orkz roll a 1 to hit 5 out of 6 times. Then mortal wound 5 out of 6 times. For every 7 attacks they make, they kill 5 of their own Boyz. So if they have 2+ attacks/model, it is highly unlikely that any of the models survive.

Now, pulling off a -4-to-hit actually takes quite a bit, so it's very gimmicky and not competitive. But that 30-man squad is probably dead.

Pandabeer wrote:
Before you start talking about nerfing invul saves you might want to reduce the ridiculous overwatch a properly equipped Russ can puke out with Defensive Gunners and the general lethality of shooting (and also assault while we're at it). Models need that 3++ to prevent them from being shot off the board instantly by a 4d3 overcharged plasma + lascannon Russ Executioner that is unchargeable by anything lighter than a Relic Contemptor thanks to Defensive Gunners (or chaff hordes like Boyz or Cultists but you need to be lucky enough to have brought an army that has those units).

And yes I'm -y because my toughest beatsticks get dropped by overwatch on a frighteningly consistent basis.

Anyone that uses grinding advance in overwatch is cheating you.

I don't think people realize how terrifying Overwatch is to many of the lighter CC units in the game.