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 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?

FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges

There are lots of good relics for characters.

If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?

Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!

A Suit of Knives 3++ character has the potential to kill a 30man Ork unit within even attacking... Is that strong enough for you? Sure you need a power/stratagem to help, but can a captain do that? And its less than 100pts.

Everyone knows the Solitare is OP lol.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?

FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges

There are lots of good relics for characters.

If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?

Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!

A Suit of Knives 3++ character has the potential to kill a 30man Ork unit within even attacking... Is that strong enough for you? Sure you need a power/stratagem to help, but can a captain do that? And its less than 100pts.

You mean the Relic where you had to roll a 1 to hit them and then you roll a 2+ for the mortal wound?

So is this 30 Ork Boyz an average or just a BS number you came up with? I'm gonna go with the latter.

This is the thing where people say it's super duper DUUUPER easy for you to just cast one psychic power on the ork boyz, then another psychic power on the solitaire, then use a stratagem on the solitaire, then the ork player decides to play along and pile in his models to die instead of opting to not do that.

Yeah, if that happens, then through the combined efforts of about 300pts of harlequin characters you can one-round 30 ork boyz.

Which is why we see all those harlequin lists sweeping tournaments so often.

No one disagrees captains on Jetbikes are great, but of all the factions to care about them, IG should not. Adjust your tactics, prioritize targets, use screens. Bring in allies. Bullgryns with brute shields and power mauls backed up by an astropath improving their invul save and a priest for extra attacks will make custodes seriously reconsider charging the line of tanks they're guarding. Alternatively, throw them into a valkyrie and just grav chute them into his face.

It's 2+ invul saves and layered save nonsense that are the bane of all existence.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Before you start talking about nerfing invul saves you might want to reduce the ridiculous overwatch a properly equipped Russ can puke out with Defensive Gunners and the general lethality of shooting (and also assault while we're at it). Models need that 3++ to prevent them from being shot off the board instantly by a 4d3 overcharged plasma + lascannon Russ Executioner that is unchargeable by anything lighter than a Relic Contemptor thanks to Defensive Gunners (or chaff hordes like Boyz or Cultists but you need to be lucky enough to have brought an army that has those units).

And yes I'm -y because my toughest beatsticks get dropped by overwatch on a frighteningly consistent basis.

Anyone that uses grinding advance in overwatch is cheating you.

How so? That doesn't work during Overwatch?

Correct. The rules state explicitly "in the following Shooting Phase".

Custodes are just an example of an army that is un-fun to play against. It's more about hoping they fail saves. And they have command reroll, and also, their once per game reroll. It's just dumb, getting past a 3++ with 1 reroll per turn and an additional on-demand reroll.

In general, truly elite armies aren't fun, though. No one liked invisible death stars from 7th. And people don't like running into a list that fields nearly invincible models in 8th, like a fully buffed Mortarian, a CP fueled Knight, Custode balls.

The best thing about 8th is that most of the things in the game are totally killable... hopefully they don't walk away from this.

BaconCatBug wrote:So stop firing things that care about his invulnerable, overwhelm him with Dakka, ya zoggin git.

JohnnyHell wrote:Don’t shoot high AP at units with good invulnerable saves.

Shoot volume of fire with enough AP to put them on their invulnerable save instead of armour, probably even just -1 will do in a lot of cases, or -2. Make them roll more dice and more will fail.

The problem arises when we're talking about a T6 W7 2+sv unit. At that point the character has about the same resiliency against plinky volume of fire attacks as a battle tank does.

You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that. Almost 200 BS3+ bolter shots (whereas you could Dakka a Predator Tank to death with 150 shots). If we're talking Assault Cannons, you're gonna need an average of 11 BS3+ Assault Cannons to take down such a Character. If the weapon has a -2 ASM, the Invul kicks in and makes anything with an ASM more than -1 pointless. The 3++ makes it so that the tanky character has a similar resiliency against big guns to boot. With the 3++ save, you need an average of 14 BS3+ Lascannons or Krak Missiles to kill the character (so while the assault cannons are better, it's not by very much, there is no single weapon type that's particularly effective, the character is stupid resilient against *everything*).

Deathwatch have the optimal loadout.

Poisoned 2+ /w rerolling 1s to both hit and wound easily, with a native ap-1 on primaris bolt weapons.

They are the efficient choice here.

 Marmatag wrote:
Deathwatch have the optimal loadout.

Poisoned 2+ /w rerolling 1s to both hit and wound easily, with a native ap-1 on primaris bolt weapons.

They are the efficient choice here.

Aye. They is good. Stalkers work good too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Deathwatch have the optimal loadout.

Poisoned 2+ /w rerolling 1s to both hit and wound easily, with a native ap-1 on primaris bolt weapons.

They are the efficient choice here.

Aye. They is good. Stalkers work good too.

I LOL you even make mention of Stalkers.

 Elbows wrote:
Correct. The rules state explicitly "in the following Shooting Phase".

Hum. That's good to know next time I get blasted off the board, thanks

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem arises when we're talking about a T6 W7 2+sv unit. At that point the character has about the same resiliency against plinky volume of fire attacks as a battle tank does.

It is something you always have to be prepared for, even if custodes were nerfed out of existence there are still a large variety of daemon princes rolling in at T6+, W8, with a variety of saves, psychic buffs, and relics.
Ever run into a 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince or a 2+/5++/4+++ wound reflecting nurgle prince? Real pain for armies without the tools.

 Vaktathi wrote:

You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.

2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!

Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.

It's amazing what a little charge here and there can do.

You should see what happens when a Rhino charges Spears.

A.T. wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem arises when we're talking about a T6 W7 2+sv unit. At that point the character has about the same resiliency against plinky volume of fire attacks as a battle tank does.

It is something you always have to be prepared for, even if custodes were nerfed out of existence there are still a large variety of daemon princes rolling in at T6+, W8, with a variety of saves, psychic buffs, and relics.
Ever run into a 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince or a 2+/5++/4+++ wound reflecting nurgle prince? Real pain for armies without the tools.

Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.

Bharring wrote:
It's amazing what a little charge here and there can do.

You should see what happens when a Rhino charges Spears.

True, although unfortunately Eldar have a Fall Back and Charge Stratagem. Still, if you can get multiple disruption charges off you can mitigate damage in some crucial turns.

Primortus wrote:
Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.

Am I misreading the revoltingly resilient warlord trait?

A.T. wrote:

Primortus wrote:
Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.

Am I misreading the revoltingly resilient warlord trait?

No, but that is on a single model. Also to nitpick, that trait doesn't give you a 4+++, it gives you a 5+++ on D6+1.

A.T. wrote:

Primortus wrote:
Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.

Am I misreading the revoltingly resilient warlord trait?

You're not, my mistake. I've completely forgotten any DG warlord trait other than Arch-contaminator exists.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.

2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!

Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.

Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.

Primortus wrote:
You're not, my mistake. I've completely forgotten any DG warlord trait other than Arch-contaminator exists.

My last game against DG was against mortarion and 5-6 princes IIRC, so it's fresh on my mind. A few tzeentch and slaanesh princes also find their way into most TS lists I play.
Whenever I see these threads I can't help but think of the custodes as the prince's boring cousins, reliable with their 2+ saves and swooping charges but lacking the varied shenanigans of the daemons.

Slipspace wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.

2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!

Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.

Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.

I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.

You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.

Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.

 Insectum7 wrote:

You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage.

Not even half assuming you live in reality where 3.6 isn't half of 10.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
If it fails his charge then you have nothing to worry about....... kill the 1 screen it might have then shoot it off the table, its only 7 wounds.

Can't really fail charge when you get an icing on top reroll charge relic that ALSO gives you a 3++. It's dumb. Theres an actual relic in the codex that gives a 3++ and nothing else. How can 1 also give reroll charges? Don't say well only jetbike can take it...Only the best option can take the best relic? That's almost the opposite of how it should work.

Thematically it makes sense, even if mechanically it doesn't - this is a problem with uncosted Relics, I agree, as in previous editions I guarantee the bike would cost more than the helmet.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.

2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!

Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.

Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.

I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.

You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.

Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.

The point is, a SC is so mobile and tough he never needs to put himself in danger. There are so few actual threats to him they become a priority target for the rest of the army. There are plenty of ways to get them up the field and still screen them. If your opponent is somehow allowing you to wipe 3 after they've charged I'd suggest they don't have a clue what they're doing.

You haven't seen 7th ed HH Custodes, 3++ on captain that you can reroll and you also had eternal warrior just in case someone with instant death came
What's not to like?

When you play vs them, have 25% more points and still loose because of how OP they are

Bharring wrote:
It's amazing what a little charge here and there can do.

You should see what happens when a Rhino charges Spears.

You mean they fall back and act as normal for 2 cp? Plus you take some free damage on your rhino (possibly lose your rhino).

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It's amazing what a little charge here and there can do.

You should see what happens when a Rhino charges Spears.

You mean they fall back and act as normal for 2 cp? Plus you take some free damage on your rhino (possibly lose your rhino).

If you are worried about losing your Rhino to make them waste a turn or cp, then you dont know the purpose of a rhino.

A.T. wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem arises when we're talking about a T6 W7 2+sv unit. At that point the character has about the same resiliency against plinky volume of fire attacks as a battle tank does.

It is something you always have to be prepared for, even if custodes were nerfed out of existence there are still a large variety of daemon princes rolling in at T6+, W8, with a variety of saves, psychic buffs, and relics.
Ever run into a 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince or a 2+/5++/4+++ wound reflecting nurgle prince? Real pain for armies without the tools.

to the former, I have not, because they explicitly nerfed the 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince out of the game.

the_scotsman wrote:
to the former, I have not, because they explicitly nerfed the 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince out of the game.

Well you missed an... interesting challenge. The combination of something needing mortal wounds to kill while also being one of the most able factions to stop their most common source 0 psychic attacks.