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 Weazel wrote:
Anyone else think that knights have absolutely ruined 40k? Luckily we don't play or even allow LoWs in our gaming circle but I think it's just so so sad that every discussion about tactics or whatever revolves around the question of "how does this work against knights?"

The discussion never revolves around knights, it revolves around one specific knight in one specific army: the super buffed raven castellan with cawl's wrath and the improved ion shields warlord trait utilizing the raven reroll ALL 1s strat and rotate ion shields strat every round that's sitting in the back of a guard army that feeds it CP and screens it. Add in some sort of flying murder-captains to taste.

That specific army combo is stupidly good, but it doesn't mean knights are broken as a whole any more than the various smash captains involved mean that Blood Angels or Custodes are broken as a whole. Actual knight armies are fine, and don't warp the meta any more than anyone else who brings a lot of armor or a lot of bodies. If I can make a game of it against an IK army with my silly all-melee Tyranid list, they aren't a real problem.

Banning an entire army and a whole class of model outright seems like a terribly destructive way of fixing the issue, like imposing a 40 model cap for every single army because conscripts+commissars were too good at launch. Why not just ban Cawl's Wrath, change the raven strat to be reroll 1s to hit, or just not allow CP sharing between codexes?

Orks have plenty of ways of dealing with them, too, with lots of surprisingly effective shooting options (I prefer mek gunz and freeboota tankbustas in transports, but there are so many choices), a suicide warboss that can reliably splat one, and whole builds that render that super-castellan completely worthless (enjoy your 600+ point army linchpin as it blast the absolute snot out of a couple boyz a turn).

So. After tournament over time to think up new concept to try for fun. As said NO LOOTAS WHATSOEVER! Not that they are good but them being core of army from the day 1 of codex change of pace and that dice roooooooolling! My wrist becomes tired ;-)

So. Let's go for some speed instead. Keep in mind casual enviroments so worst of cheese combo's shouldn't be worry. Also as usual index banned.

Battallion: Evil sunz

warboss(brutal but kunning, killa klaw, kustom shoota)
deffkilla

30xboyz(nob w/klaw)
10xboyz(nob w/big choppa)
10xgretchin
10xnob(4xbig choppa&choppa, 1xpower klaw&choppa, 5xdouble choppa)
nob w/waagh banner
bonebreaker

Battallion: death skull

big mek w/shock attack gun
badrukk

3x10 grots
15xtank busta+1xbomb squig
battlewagon

Battallion: goff

warboss(power klaw, kustom shoota)
weirdboy(da jump)

30xboyz(nob w/power klaw)
2x10gretchin

Bonebreaka and deffkilla aim for T1 charge, evil sun boyz mobbed and da jumped ditto. Skarboyz coming T2 with da jump(hopefully). Wish I Could find points for 2nd da jump weirdboy.

Do you usually have your weirdboy with da jump killed in first or second turn? I've always though two psykers with da jump were redundant and never wanted to field a second one as he always survives till half game at least. After all da jump is usually useless after 2nd turn or 3rd turn at most.

 Blackie wrote:
Do you usually have your weirdboy with da jump killed in first or second turn? I've always though two psykers with da jump were redundant and never wanted to field a second one as he always survives till half game at least. After all da jump is usually useless after 2nd turn or 3rd turn at most.

a) snipers. Even 1 wound makes it risky. Afterall peril+3 wounds from d3=da jump fails.
b) one place where 2 big mobs can hide out of LOS is harder even here than 2 different locations for 1 mob. One weirdboy might not be able to be able to reach both AND keep boyz out of LOS.
c) perils. If I don't have + modifiers it's 58%. Ergo I can't count on getting both off in 2 turns. Even both failing to go in first 2 turns isn't that unlikely(bit more than 1/6 odds). If I have plus modifiers he suffers perils more often and if he suffers perils he averages 2 wounds. Another peril and he dies. Ergo this adds yet more chances for da jump on turn 2 fail.

I usually have 2 da jumps specifically because I find 1 not be reliable enough. AND I usually use it in every turn. If nothing else than to reposition himself for next turn/objective grabber.

It's not so much as he gets flat out killed all the time turn 1 but that his reliability after first turn usually drops down. Not to mention the LOS issue and if the boyz are visible they can get vaporized easily before they get da jumped.

1). This is pretty much everything I have on my hands assembled and painted. Could you help me to organise a list out of this? My group won't mind against index too much.
2). Which klan would you run with this list? I'm feeling like it'd be okay with Freeboota.
3). Is it a stupid idea to run this as a battalion at this ammount of points if I get it all out? I lack third HQ model.
4). That x30 boy blob is magnetised, I can have either shootas or choppas if I want. What is better here?
5). I'm still assembling nobz, so I could change their wargear if current one is lacking.

Too little guns for freeboota. Kannon kills something. Fine. What utilizes the +1 to hit?

Evil sun looks like obvious one but keep in mind one unit of 10 boyz is pretty pointless there. One can be merged, one is sitting duck.

Would drop one ammo runt from nobz and have warboss in there. What he's going to do? Big mob of orks should be da jumping forward(if they try foot slogging they are dead) so you have warboss running forward on foot...sloooow!

For nobz squad add choppa's to big choppas and pk models. +1 attack in h2h is more useful than pistol. Ditto for sluggas. Double choppa better than slugga and choppa.

If you had 3rd HQ you could put him, kannons and dragsta into spearhead deathskull. Dragsta benefits nicely from deathskull bonus. Also extra CP. Albeit extra HQ is bit pricey here.

For big blop I would mix it. With 30 models + 10 mobbed up you have generally waaaaay too many choppas to reach all into h2h and even pistol range is harder. some shootas to clear chaff/finish near dead units goes around nicely. 10 shootas or so isn't bad. With 2 big shootas 8 shoota boyz, 29 choppa boyz, nob and 2 big shootas.

Thanks! I'll make sure to change nobz loadout.

 JawRippa wrote:
1). This is pretty much everything I have on my hands assembled and painted. Could you help me to organise a list out of this? My group won't mind against index too much.
2). Which klan would you run with this list? I'm feeling like it'd be okay with Freeboota.
3). Is it a stupid idea to run this as a battalion at this ammount of points if I get it all out? I lack third HQ model.
4). That x30 boy blob is magnetised, I can have either shootas or choppas if I want. What is better here?
5). I'm still assembling nobz, so I could change their wargear if current one is lacking.

Spoiler:

Battalion (1449pt.):

HQ [2]

Warboss (82pt.) Powerklaw, Kombishoota
Weirdboy (62pt.)

Troops [4]

30x - Boyz (298pt.)
> 27x - Boys choppa/slugga
> 2x - Boys big shoota
> 1x - Nob PK/slugga

10x - Boyz (70pt.)
> 9x - Boys shootas
> 1x - Nob Choppa/slugga

10x - Boyz choppa/slugga (75pt.)
> 9x - Boys choppa/slugga
> 1x - Nob Big choppa

10x - Gretchin (30pt.)

Elites [4]

5x - Kommando (40pt.)
> 2x - Kommando choppa/slugga
> 2x - Kommando burna
> 1x - KNob choppa/slugga

1x Painboy (67pt.) Killsaw

1x Nob with Banner (79pt.) Kustom shoota

x10 Nobz (262pt.)

> 4x - Nobz choppa/slugga
> 3x - Nobz Big choppa
> 3x - Nobz PK
> 2x - Ammo Runt
> 1x - Truk big shoota (64pt.)

Fast attack [2]

1x Shokkjump Dragsta (108 pt.)

6x Warbikers (156pt.)
> 4x - biker boyz
> 1x - Nob PK
> 1x - Nob Big choppa

Heavy support [1]

5x Big gunz (125pt.)
> 5x - kannon

Just a quick couple of points regarding ...sigh.. points.
The waaagh banner nob is 77 (75+2)
The shokkjump dragsta is 120 (108 + 12 for the rokkit launcha)
Remember to put tankbusta bombs on your boyz (both in lists and on actual models)
You can't put in 2 biker nobz in a normal warbiker unit, you have enough for 2 units though.

I agree with Tneva that Evil sunz are a pretty good fit for what you have, and that switching out sluggas for extra choppas is worth doing every place you can. I'd get another weirdboy and 2 squads of boyz/grots though so you can get 2 battalions. If you want to do a freeboota list then both detachments should be freebootaz to get maximum mileage out of that trait IMO. I'd also get some actual Flash Gitz then as well, since they "belong" in such a list (just for fluff purposes if nothing else).

There are some interesting stacking moves you could do with freebootas + waaagh banner nob. If you manage to smack something in CC you can have MANZ with killsaws hitting on 2's. It all sort of depends where you want to go with this list.

So I have a casual 2k 2v2 Xenos vs imperium game Friday. And the list I want to try for funsises revolves around Goff assault force supported by badmoons lootas and my dark eldar ally. I was thinking of getting rid of the bad moons and adding my evil sunz for some earlier charges. I want to dajump the skarboyz and probably deepstrike ghaz with the grots shielding the nobz. If I cast FOG and warpath on ghaz he would have 10 attacks on the charge at S14 -4 dmg 3 with exploding 6s and boosting his 5s to 6s with the lucky stikk. What do you guys think? Should I put in some evil sunz bikes or deep strike evil sunz meganobz?
[spoiler]
++ Patrol Detachment (Orks) [40 PL, 670pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Goffs

+ HQ +

Ghazghkull Thraka [12 PL, 235pts]: Warlord

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, 4. Fists of Gork, Warphead (1 CP) Da Lucky stikk

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 215pts]: Skarboyz (1 CP), 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

+ Elites +

Nobz [14 PL, 158pts]: 2x Ammo Runt
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa

++ Patrol Detachment (Orks) [17 PL, 330pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Bad Moons

+ HQ +

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, Warphead (1 CP)

+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Heavy Support +

Lootas [13 PL, 238pts]: 14x Loota

++ Total: [57 PL, 1000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

JawRippa wrote:1). This is pretty much everything I have on my hands assembled and painted. Could you help me to organise a list out of this? My group won't mind against index too much.
2). Which klan would you run with this list? I'm feeling like it'd be okay with Freeboota.
3). Is it a stupid idea to run this as a battalion at this ammount of points if I get it all out? I lack third HQ model.
4). That x30 boy blob is magnetised, I can have either shootas or choppas if I want. What is better here?
5). I'm still assembling nobz, so I could change their wargear if current one is lacking.

Spoiler:

Battalion (1449pt.):

HQ [2]

Warboss (82pt.) Powerklaw, Kombishoota
Weirdboy (62pt.)

Troops [4]

30x - Boyz (298pt.)
> 27x - Boys choppa/slugga
> 2x - Boys big shoota
> 1x - Nob PK/slugga

10x - Boyz (70pt.)
> 9x - Boys shootas
> 1x - Nob Choppa/slugga

10x - Boyz choppa/slugga (75pt.)
> 9x - Boys choppa/slugga
> 1x - Nob Big choppa

10x - Gretchin (30pt.)

Elites [4]

5x - Kommando (40pt.)
> 2x - Kommando choppa/slugga
> 2x - Kommando burna
> 1x - KNob choppa/slugga

1x Painboy (67pt.) Killsaw

1x Nob with Banner (79pt.) Kustom shoota

x10 Nobz (262pt.)

> 4x - Nobz choppa/slugga
> 3x - Nobz Big choppa
> 3x - Nobz PK
> 2x - Ammo Runt
> 1x - Truk big shoota (64pt.)

Fast attack [2]

1x Shokkjump Dragsta (108 pt.)

6x Warbikers (156pt.)
> 4x - biker boyz
> 1x - Nob PK
> 1x - Nob Big choppa

Heavy support [1]

5x Big gunz (125pt.)
> 5x - kannon

If you're running anything but the smallest games, you'll probably want either two battalions (which means two more HQs and some more troops, probably grots) or a brigade (which would take the same troops, but only one more HQ). What size of army were you looking at getting together? 1000?

You could always take your two biker nobz and give them some fancy bling (if they don't have it already) and call them warbosses? The PK bikerboss with the relic claw is a great little missile and will kill whatever he hits. I'd probably spend the CP for the relic big choppa, too, just to give the second guy a bit of punch. That does leave you without enough bikers to split, though, so you'd need another FA slot to run a brigade (right now you could run 2x3 bikes to get to your requisite three slots).

Also, just from an efficiency point of view, those big gunz are pretty awful these days. GW nerfed them hard. I'd leave them on the shelf unless people there are cool with you proxy-ing them as mek gunz (in which case, do that).

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

Spoiler:

So I have a casual 2k 2v2 Xenos vs imperium game Friday. And the list I want to try for funsises revolves around Goff assault force supported by badmoons lootas and my dark eldar ally. I was thinking of getting rid of the bad moons and adding my evil sunz for some earlier charges. I want to dajump the skarboyz and probably deepstrike ghaz with the grots shielding the nobz. If I cast FOG and warpath on ghaz he would have 10 attacks on the charge at S14 -4 dmg 3 with exploding 6s and boosting his 5s to 6s with the lucky stikk. What do you guys think? Should I put in some evil sunz bikes or deep strike evil sunz meganobz?
[spoiler]
++ Patrol Detachment (Orks) [40 PL, 670pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Goffs

+ HQ +

Ghazghkull Thraka [12 PL, 235pts]: Warlord

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, 4. Fists of Gork, Warphead (1 CP) Da Lucky stikk

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 215pts]: Skarboyz (1 CP), 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

+ Elites +

Nobz [14 PL, 158pts]: 2x Ammo Runt
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa

++ Patrol Detachment (Orks) [17 PL, 330pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Bad Moons

+ HQ +

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, Warphead (1 CP)

+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Heavy Support +

Lootas [13 PL, 238pts]: 14x Loota

++ Total: [57 PL, 1000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

You should really combine those into at least one battalion, just for the CP. Badmoons are only really good for the loota bomb, and that requires a ton of CP (you have zero at the start of the game right now) and a bunch of grots to shield the lootas. With the size of the game and what you want to run, I just don't think you can fit both the goffs and the badmoons in and have either work. You'll have to choose one and run with it, either swapping the lootas for more melee threats or dropping the nobz for a bunch of badmoon grots (and put the second weirdboy in there, too, to make a battalion).

Either way, you definitely want CP. Orks really love their strats.

Has anyone had any good ideas for what a Blood Axe list would be focused on? I've basically gone through all the major clans listbuilding and gaming wise so far except Snakebites, Freebootas and Blood Axes, and I want to try out Blood Axes next.

Bonebreaka battlewagons seem to be pretty good since you get to make the most mileage out of the extra D6 damage from being able to fall back and charge again. Similarly, stormboyz (fittingly) are then able to really cheese with guys who try to screen by potentially flying past them and charging into more opportune targets. Tankbustas are also good in the sense that for only 1 CP we can deepstrike them and not need transports, while also having enough protection and tactical placement to have the best shot at taking out ideal targets. The only other unit that comes to mind that would benefit from Blood Axes are Deffkoptas (at least for brigades) and the Deffkilla Wartrike. So the question is would it better to go for a Blood Axe Battlewagon oriented list or an infantry heavy one?

My list is aimed at 1500 points btw. I'll probably have one cooked up by tomorrow.

 Grimskul wrote:
Has anyone had any good ideas for what a Blood Axe list would be focused on? I've basically gone through all the major clans listbuilding and gaming wise so far except Snakebites, Freebootas and Blood Axes, and I want to try out Blood Axes next.

Bonebreaka battlewagons seem to be pretty good since you get to make the most mileage out of the extra D6 damage from being able to fall back and charge again. Similarly, stormboyz (fittingly) are then able to really cheese with guys who try to screen by potentially flying past them and charging into more opportune targets. Tankbustas are also good in the sense that for only 1 CP we can deepstrike them and not need transports, while also having enough protection and tactical placement to have the best shot at taking out ideal targets. The only other unit that comes to mind that would benefit from Blood Axes are Deffkoptas (at least for brigades) and the Deffkilla Wartrike. So the question is would it better to go for a Blood Axe Battlewagon oriented list or an infantry heavy one?

My list is aimed at 1500 points btw. I'll probably have one cooked up by tomorrow.

The cover rule is a small benefit to Trukks, tankbustas and lootas. Everyone complains about the 18" minimum range but I've found it helpful, especially on trukks. Not against lascannons, of course, but the 3+ trukk is fun.

Nobs are especially nice after Loot It!, giving them 2+ from long range things.

The fallback and charge is awesome on scrapjets and BWs, but also Trukks. Most opponents forget they have it and can really gak with them if they are not on their toes.

Thanks a lot for the responses! I'll get to fixing points.

I guess I could proxy Nob banner as a big choppa warboss since he is a custom made one and has sufficient bling, thus turning it into a brigade. (probably I'll have to get 10 more grots then). I think I'll stick to 1000 or 1250ish for now.

Few more questions:
1). What units would you get to make Freeboota kultur more appealing apart from flashgits? I've always been a fan of shooty orks.
2). What loadout would you run on truk nobz, apart for "mandatory" choppa+choppa for ablative wounds nobz?

 Grimskul wrote:
Has anyone had any good ideas for what a Blood Axe list would be focused on? I've basically gone through all the major clans listbuilding and gaming wise so far except Snakebites, Freebootas and Blood Axes, and I want to try out Blood Axes next.

My orks are painted as Blood Axes, so I have not played any other culture so far. Be prepared to be disappointed though.

In detail:

Bonebreaka battlewagons seem to be pretty good since you get to make the most mileage out of the extra D6 damage from being able to fall back and charge again. Similarly, stormboyz (fittingly) are then able to really cheese with guys who try to screen by potentially flying past them and charging into more opportune targets.

In multiple games I have yet to use this part of the culture efficiently for anything but buggies or koptas. You will only ever be making that decision after something has been stuck in combat with you during their turn. For boyz, bonebreakers, storm boyz, nobz, warbikers and many other units this means either they have charged, so the unit was wiped out or fell back during their turn so they can shoot you/not get mulched in combat. Or they have charged you, which means that your unit is most likely dead or dying. Falling back with a bonebreaker on two wounds doesn't actually yield a lot of advantages - usually you want to stay in combat so you don't lose your last two wounds to overwatch.
It's nice for buggies (tested with kustom burna blasters and shokkjump dragsta) since those don't actually have the fighting power to wipe out units in combat, but are durable enough to tie down units you don't want to shoot or charge during their next turn.
It also works well for koptas, as it allows them to shoot and assault after falling back. Fall back, shoot rokkit at a hard target, charge back into the unit you were locking down.
Nobz can benefit from this when they in your opponent's backfield - charge some blocking vehicle like a rhino and instead of getting stuck to it for two turns, fall back and charge around it next turn.
Nauts might benefit, but I haven't tried any yet.

Tankbustas are also good in the sense that for only 1 CP we can deepstrike them and not need transports, while also having enough protection and tactical placement to have the best shot at taking out ideal targets.

There are two more things that can be hidden away:
1) Units of 20 boyz. Combine with a deff kopta that can deep strike naturally to eat overwatch and benefit from green tide in combat. In a recent game I had a flank collapse during turn 2, next turn I deep struck two units of 20 boyz there, jumped another unit there and green tided a third one. Suddenly the harlequins that overextended to wipe out two battlewagons there found themselves surrounded by 80+ boyz and three koptas. He basically lost the game right there.
2) Characters. Banner nob, warboss or KFF mek can basically anywhere you need them. Even if they don't make their charges, doing a surprise advance+charge, having some unit hit a lot harder than expected or repairing and protecting a bonebreaker, deff dread or other vehicle can throw a bone into your enemy's plans. Hiding weird boyz is not advised since you are wasting the turn 1 smite.
For extra sneaky gits, give your banner nob the finkin' cap and the "Follow me, ladz!" warlord trait and have instant tripple-aura character wherever you need it.

A bloodaxe battalion with 3x 20 boyz and two characters can hide all of its members for +- 0 CP.

Something you have not addressed is the cover save, but for good reason. In my experience, it basically does nothing unless you are shot by krak missiles. Anything else either punches through armor anyways, does mortal wounds or is shooting from within 18".

The only other unit that comes to mind that would benefit from Blood Axes are Deffkoptas (at least for brigades) and the Deffkilla Wartrike. So the question is would it better to go for a Blood Axe Battlewagon oriented list or an infantry heavy one?

I had the most success with a deep-strike heavy set-up, with two deff dreads in the tellyporta, three units of boyz, tank bustas and the finkin cap+banner nob hiding and some koptas on the flanks. Combined with green tide and da jump you can have an entire army popping wherever you need it.
The rest of the army is made up of durable units like battlewagons with nobz inside and planes plus gretchin or boyz covering your backfield (5+ in the open) with a KFF of some sort (naut/mek/wazzbom) so you don't face wipe-out turn one.

The sad thruth is that any army you could think up would be better by just fielding it as Evil Suns or Deff Skulls instead of Blood Axes.

 Jidmah wrote:
1) Units of 20 boyz. Combine with a deff kopta that can deep strike naturally to eat overwatch and benefit from green tide in combat. In a recent game I had a flank collapse during turn 2, next turn I deep struck two units of 20 boyz there, jumped another unit there and green tided a third one. Suddenly the harlequins that overextended to wipe out two battlewagons there found themselves surrounded by 80+ boyz and three koptas. He basically lost the game right there.

Wait are you saying to use deep striking dethkoptas to eat overwatch so deep striking blood axe boyz could charge without overwatch? Unless death kopta is separate detchment for evil sun you have like 1/3 of those boyz making charge like that. Other times either kopta ends up charging alone or boyz charge without kopta.

Even with evil sun kopta it's still less than half the time...

Much more reliable to have either non deep striking kopta(to make 4-6" charge) or bigger mob of boyz so 1 casualty isn't too much of a worry.

Hiding weird boyz is not advised since you are wasting the turn 1 smite.

I rarely get chance for turn 1 smite even if I put him on front line. With average threat range of 26.5" range is generally too short by 1-2 inch.

 JawRippa wrote:

Few more questions:
1). What units would you get to make Freeboota kultur more appealing apart from flashgits? I've always been a fan of shooty orks.

I find Freebootas to be the most interesting Kultur, as it has the potential to bring orks up to IG and Tau level of firepower. I have been thinking about how best to optimise a FB list so i'll list my thoughts on their best units below along with some math (Disclaimer - i am not a math man and am happy to be disproven. I have based the percentages on shots hit relative to shots fired, factoring in DDD )

- Flash Gitz. The obvious one, a base 4+ base increases to 3+. A 4+ base and DD results in 58.33% hits. So a squad of 10 flash gitz can expect just over 17.49 hits from 30 shots. However if they are buffed with +1 to hit the percentage goes to 77.77% (23 hits from 30 - better than base 3+). I have also ignore the kaptin (better base BS) and ammo runts in these calcs so they will be slightly better. Finally, add in Kaptin Badrukk to supavize the gitz and the hit calcs go up to 92.9% with the rr1s

- Dakkajets. another unit with technically a base 4+, so similar calcs as above. a weapon profile that is strong against T3 low sv chaff and MSU units. A good unit to procc the FB kultur

- Tankbustas. Already a strong unit under any kultur thanks to the built in re-rolls, this arguably becomes even stronger when given a +1 to hit as well, as you increase the chances of hitting, re-hitting and triggering DDD twice. Math is shaky on this one, but i have it down as 93.75% hits vs vehicles at BS 4+ - very accurate!

- Mek guns, don't benefit from the kultur but useful for procuring it. Standard back line of smashas and traktros probably most useful.

- Shokk Attack Gun Mek. (with Da souped up shokka, Big killa boss WL trait and Kustom ammo strat). the listed requiremetns are needed to make this truly viable, but you end up with a FB warlord who can happily sit safe backfield, shoot 4D6 shots at Bs 4+ once youve procc'd and with decent rolling can be wounding on 3 or 2s. This can roughly do 14 dmg to T7 vehicles, so good chance to one shot anything without a inv save.

- DakkaDakkaDakka special rule becomes much stronger the better your Bs is. Extra shots are always generated at the same rate, but these shots have a much better chance of actually hitting, its one of the main reasons some of the calcs for freebootas and tankbustas are so high, compared with re-rolls.

- Both tankbustas and Flash gitz need a trukk/battlewagon and potentially a KFF support to make them truly survivable, so thats added pt tax

Honourable mentions
- Lootas, shoota boyz.. Can be useful when buffed to 4+, but are not particularly effective without. ( or bad moonz strats)
- Scrapjet and dragsta. I haven't really considered these units too much. i don't think they are the ideal unit to be used as they are outperfromed by FB tankbustas

Random thought - Tau are one of orks more difficult math ups, but their drones usually act as individual units once on the field. Logic suggests that killing just one drone will procure the FB buff.

My current list is as follows and aims to saturate higher toughness. boyz in battlewagons to rush forward and soak fire, while bustas and freebootas move up in trukks midfield then start dakka'rin:


This is all theory crafting, i have flash gitz and other bits on order, so im keen to start testing it out. If it fails then i'll give an orky sigh and pull out my 200 boyz and revert to Evil suns boyz rush :{

Ya I really hope they give flash gitz at least a 5 pt decrease in the next chapter approved, an 8 pt decrease is what they really need, but I'll take what I can get. They're my favorite unit and I've been waiting like 4 editions for them to finally be viable :(

Something to note with FB is that it helps h2h as well. However as you need 1 unit to destroy something for others to work few units isn't really good idea. Reversed going for freeboota h2h with idea of hitting on 2+'s is then hurt by few shooty elements. In general you should either go all in with freebootas(if you want some h2h elements have them be non-FB) or have decent mix of both. Something like 90% shoota, 10% h2h is pretty bad deal. 60/40 would be lot better.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
1) Units of 20 boyz. Combine with a deff kopta that can deep strike naturally to eat overwatch and benefit from green tide in combat. In a recent game I had a flank collapse during turn 2, next turn I deep struck two units of 20 boyz there, jumped another unit there and green tided a third one. Suddenly the harlequins that overextended to wipe out two battlewagons there found themselves surrounded by 80+ boyz and three koptas. He basically lost the game right there.

Wait are you saying to use deep striking dethkoptas to eat overwatch so deep striking blood axe boyz could charge without overwatch? Unless death kopta is separate detchment for evil sun you have like 1/3 of those boyz making charge like that. Other times either kopta ends up charging alone or boyz charge without kopta.

Even with evil sun kopta it's still less than half the time...

Multiple koptas can charge one target, so the chance is decent of not eating overwatch. If the boyz mob doesn't succeed charging afterwards isn't too terrible since you are not taking overwatch for trying to do so.

Much more reliable to have either non deep striking kopta(to make 4-6" charge) or bigger mob of boyz so 1 casualty isn't too much of a worry.

Blood axe stratagem ist useless for more than 20 boyz.

Hiding weird boyz is not advised since you are wasting the turn 1 smite.

I rarely get chance for turn 1 smite even if I put him on front line. With average threat range of 26.5" range is generally too short by 1-2 inch.

Thanks Jidmah and JimonMars for your input! I'll definitely have 20 man boyz squads added to my list. It's too bad to hear that Blood Axes aren't as competitive as the mainstays of Deffskullz and Evil Sunz, but I guess fluffwise it makes sense that they're more tactical to play with. I kinda want to try out Burna Boyz with them, since they're one of the few units that want to burninate after falling back with a transport, but they're still so lacklustre there's basically no point :(

Here's my rough draft of the list so far:




My main issue right now is that the battlewagon kinda sticks out like a sore thumb in the list, its basically the only target for anti-vehicle and I'd have to hide it T1 until my reinforcements arrive. I only really included it since I really want to try out battlewagons right now. If I were to make a more battlewagon oriented, should I just make it two battalions and cut down on the fast attack?

Speaking of battlewagons, have people tried a 9 wagon list (3 Bone Breakas, 3 plain BWs and 3 gunwagons, I believe allowed even under 'rule of 3' restrictions as they have separate codex entries)?

It would _look_ super-cool, and many opposing armies would have trouble stopping that much armour, but is it actually a viable army? What units would you put in the wagons, and what other supporting units would the army need?

Speaking of battlewagons, have people tried a 9 wagon list (3 Bone Breakas, 3 plain BWs and 3 gunwagons, I believe allowed even under 'rule of 3' restrictions as they have separate codex entries)?

It would _look_ super-cool, and many opposing armies would have trouble stopping that much armour, but is it actually a viable army? What units would you put in the wagons, and what other supporting units would the army need?

I feel you may have some success with 3 bonebreakers and 3 plain battlewagons. Having shooty in the wagons and choppy in the breakers. Though it feels like you pay so much for to little with the gunwagons. Back it up with bike KFF meks and perhaps some scrapjets and most knights and harly bike spam would have to work hard to chew through it all before it slams home.

 Jidmah wrote:

Multiple koptas can charge one target, so the chance is decent of not eating overwatch. If the boyz mob doesn't succeed charging afterwards isn't too terrible since you are not taking overwatch for trying to do so.

So now you are sinking more points, limiting it to basically one due to rule of 3 and if boyz fail it those koptas die on their own. And still about once in six your boyz are charging without kopta's anyway unless you go for max 3. Which truly makes this work only for 1 unit and costs around 120 pts more. When you could just have taken 30 boyz and have better unit with more reliability and pay less points.

Blood axe stratagem ist useless for more than 20 boyz.

Luckily being blood axe doesn't mean you can't use the other strategem eh then? Or not take blood axe to begin with.

I'm playing death guard, daemons, sisters and harlequins a lot lately. Those armies don't do jack outside of 26.5" range.

But they can move out of that range. Idea isn't to stay there. Idea is to prevent opponent from screwing them if they get first turn(and now you even know it when deploying) by shooting/casting/doing T1 charges. Once your turn is done they are in position to move forward and do as planned. Why would they give you free chance to smite when they can prevent it with no cost for them...Well of course if you play against bad players fine but I don't count on that.

Levski wrote:


My current list is as follows and aims to saturate higher toughness. boyz in battlewagons to rush forward and soak fire, while bustas and freebootas move up in trukks midfield then start dakka'rin:

Spoiler:

Freebootas 2000

Freebootas Battalion

Kaptin Badruk 84
Ammo runt 4

Big Mek 55
KFF 20

20 Grotz 60

20 Choppa boyz 140

20 Choppa boyz 140

10 Flashgitz 300

10 Tankbustas 170
2 Bomb squigs 20

Trukk 64

Trukk 64

10 Lootas 170

Dakkajet 148

Dakkajet 148

Freebootas Spearhead (Dread Mob)

Big Mek SAG (KbB) 80
Da Souped up Shokka

3 Mek Guns (Smashas) 93

Battlewagon 120

Battlewagon 120

This is all theory crafting, i have flash gitz and other bits on order, so im keen to start testing it out. If it fails then i'll give an orky sigh and pull out my 200 boyz and revert to Evil suns boyz rush :{

I'd suggest splitting the 10 man squad of flash gitz into 2x5 with 2 ammo runts. This way you get 2 katpins and 2 additional re-roll. I'd add a warboss, rather than a big mek. The one with da killa klaw is also quite good on triggering the +1 to hit for boyz in combat.

Another bonus: Less issues with morale with 2x5. Are there any strategems flash gits would like to use? Those encourage deathstar style aka 25 lootas but don't recall top of my head anything flash gits would be dying to use. More dakka if facing -1 or more when you need to move in range but that's rather specific case...

edit: Grot screen. That's the one purpose to have 10 unit. With 2x5 you will get unit of 5 wiped out without grot screens to help them. Another would be loot it.

 Clang wrote:
Speaking of battlewagons, have people tried a 9 wagon list (3 Bone Breakas, 3 plain BWs and 3 gunwagons, I believe allowed even under 'rule of 3' restrictions as they have separate codex entries)?

It would _look_ super-cool, and many opposing armies would have trouble stopping that much armour, but is it actually a viable army? What units would you put in the wagons, and what other supporting units would the army need?

The gunwagons are a tough sell to be honest. They're just stuck in a weird role of transport and slow-moving, short ranged gunboat. Now if FW ever got off their hands and gave the battlewagon with supa-kannon (technically a different datasheet as well) the base point drop that battlewagons got then they would at least become a somewhat viable alternative to tankbustas in trukks.

But technically the bonebreakas and three battlewagons with deffrolla could be really strong, if you're playing on a big plains board. Terrain (especially ruins) would shut that list down hard.

 Clang wrote:
Speaking of battlewagons, have people tried a 9 wagon list (3 Bone Breakas, 3 plain BWs and 3 gunwagons, I believe allowed even under 'rule of 3' restrictions as they have separate codex entries)?

It would _look_ super-cool, and many opposing armies would have trouble stopping that much armour, but is it actually a viable army? What units would you put in the wagons, and what other supporting units would the army need?

Problem is going to be a) you are spending lots of points on transports without points to fill with worthwhile stuff b) you need 9 HS slots. Either 3 battallions at which point all those HQ's and troop slots are going to be pain or bat+spearhead which leaves you thin on CP's.

9 BW, 9x10 grots(minimum troops for 3 bat), 3xwarboss and 3xweirdboy(among cheapest HQ's) and you are already nearly looking at 2k.

Even trimming down to bat+spearhead you are looking at around 1600 pts...

As it is just the wagons are 1302 pts MINIMUM(no upgrades) and empty standard bw with no upgrades...Is not a threat.

Too expensive in points for 2k. Need more points like 3k to fill them with something worthwhile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
But technically the bonebreakas and three battlewagons with deffrolla could be really strong, if you're playing on a big plains board. Terrain (especially ruins) would shut that list down hard.

OTOH on big plain boards opponent has good time to shoot with no LOS blocking and in these knight heavy meta's...BW's are actually soft targets. People are gearing up to one shot castellans. That's equilavent of causing 84 wounds to T8. How many BW's that is?

tneva82 wrote:
Luckily being blood axe doesn't mean you can't use the other strategem eh then? Or not take blood axe to begin with.

Typical tneva. I responded to a person trying to run blood axes. You respond to me by telling me not to run blood axes. Seriously?

I'm playing death guard, daemons, sisters and harlequins a lot lately. Those armies don't do jack outside of 26.5" range.

But they can move out of that range. Idea isn't to stay there. Idea is to prevent opponent from screwing them if they get first turn(and now you even know it when deploying) by shooting/casting/doing T1 charges. Once your turn is done they are in position to move forward and do as planned. Why would they give you free chance to smite when they can prevent it with no cost for them...Well of course if you play against bad players fine but I don't count on that.

tneva82 wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
But technically the bonebreakas and three battlewagons with deffrolla could be really strong, if you're playing on a big plains board. Terrain (especially ruins) would shut that list down hard.

OTOH on big plain boards opponent has good time to shoot with no LOS blocking and in these knight heavy meta's...BW's are actually soft targets. People are gearing up to one shot castellans. That's equilavent of causing 84 wounds to T8. How many BW's that is?

For sure, but at least on a plain battlefield you have some crazy damage potential. But if someone has a castellan or a list tailored to beat castellans then battlewagon spam is not going to work. And if you're fighting in ruins then you're also screwed.

Battlewagons & bonebreakas are solid, it's just too much of a good thing

PiñaColada wrote:
For sure, but at least on a plain battlefield you have some crazy damage potential. But if someone has a castellan or a list tailored to beat castellans then battlewagon spam is not going to work. And if you're fighting in ruins then you're also screwed.

Battlewagons & bonebreakas are solid, it's just too much of a good thing

Plains you are also in trouble if you are facing any list which has taken knights in mind. Which is...about every list in competive and lots of semi-competive. Any list that can one shot knight, especially castellan, will be blowing up several battlewagons right away(indeed theoretical average with 3++ castellan would equal 5 bw's and 1 wounded...Albeit the way damage rolls work out you are looking more like 3-4 bw's).

So it's not even as tough as you might think. And you have not nearly enough points. 3 unarmed battlewagons with nothing inside is nothing scary but with 1300pts bare minimum for 9 wagons without hq's and troops not much else you afford in...