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SemperMortis wrote:
Ahh, i love kitbashing Mek Gunz, even if I don't use mek gunz right now because they are too flimsy. Seriously, going from T7 with a 3+ save to T5 with a 5+ save is just ridiculous.

Their cheapness makes them worth it. Currently have three based on two chimera's and a trukk (yep, a bit bigger then they should be) and planning to make a couple more.

Hey all, Been away a long time, been waiting on this codex a Looooooong time
Loving the new stuff, firstly, what happened to the rumoured new Ghaz model?
Secondly, god damn killa kanz! have wanted my killa kanz list to be the meta for so long, but beggars cant be choosers. Whats the Meka-list state like? having looked through the codex and read as much of this thread as possible...

Dreads, utilising the Deathskulls re-rolls as they act as individual units, tele in with max squad, become separate units, eat as many vehicles as possible?
planes? Dakka jet for the chaff clearing that threaten your dreads? Burna bomba for elites? The KMB plane? whats its role? anti-tank? so less useful than the others in a mek list?
I'd love to squeeze in some flash gitz, but obviously inside a morka/gorka aint gona work well as you lose your ablative wounds? Do i stack grots? maybe have a grot mob ready to become grot shields when the gitz get out? Or just go with a BW and roll around blasting holes in things?

I have access to FW and Index, would a Killtank or Supaskorcha full of gitz be any good, or am i simply spending too many points on the vehicles? Was thinking how funny it would be to tele a supa-scorcha full of gitz down and just start shredding stuff, as the gitz should be able to make use of their melee profile when landing in hot.

Grots over boyz?
Man my dice are itchin! cant wait to roll dem 6's

Solar Shock wrote:
Hey all, Been away a long time, been waiting on this codex a Looooooong time
Loving the new stuff, firstly, what happened to the rumoured new Ghaz model?
Secondly, god damn killa kanz! have wanted my killa kanz list to be the meta for so long, but beggars cant be choosers. Whats the Meka-list state like? having looked through the codex and read as much of this thread as possible...

Dreads, utilising the Deathskulls re-rolls as they act as individual units, tele in with max squad, become separate units, eat as many vehicles as possible?
planes? Dakka jet for the chaff clearing that threaten your dreads? Burna bomba for elites? The KMB plane? whats its role? anti-tank? so less useful than the others in a mek list?
I'd love to squeeze in some flash gitz, but obviously inside a morka/gorka aint gona work well as you lose your ablative wounds? Do i stack grots? maybe have a grot mob ready to become grot shields when the gitz get out? Or just go with a BW and roll around blasting holes in things?

I have access to FW and Index, would a Killtank or Supaskorcha full of gitz be any good, or am i simply spending too many points on the vehicles? Was thinking how funny it would be to tele a supa-scorcha full of gitz down and just start shredding stuff, as the gitz should be able to make use of their melee profile when landing in hot.

Grots over boyz?
Man my dice are itchin! cant wait to roll dem 6's

I wouldnt say grots over boys, but a battalion made up of 30 grots is highly recommended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what would they have to do to the Mekboy workshop besides making it free in order for you to take it in a list?
?
I don't know what GW thought they were doing with that/ which playtesters worked on it because they should be reprimanded for it's rulez!

If you could get a Kustom Job without actually giving up the unit's ability to shoot/move/fight that turn, the Mek Workshop would be pretty decent.

Ive discussed that with my roommate alot and we came to 2 ideas to make the Mekshop viable

1) Doesnt nullify the unit for a turn. Potentially broken given we have some long range mean guns with random shots (you have to factor in FW units, and either the Supakannon or Killtank would absolutely LOVE this)
2) The "Extra" stuff is automatic. Lose it for a turn, gain whatever minor one-shot buff you were going for, and guarantee the permanent boost. Even if you add a clause where you can only gain 1 permanent bonus i'd probably take it for this.

If the extra stuff was guaranteed i'd be using it for flavor alone. The only things i will not run are complete dead weight units (burnas...) and it would atleast be amusing and cause some interesting scenarios such as a T9 Morkanaut lol.

Hey Everyone,
Steve(N!) Pampreen here

bored at work so feel free to ask me anything orky about Adepticon.

If you're curious about list stuff, I also built Elliot Levy's list for him and he did pretty well with it. If I had had the models that's probably what I would have done.

I did read back a few pages and want to say sorry for the format, that's what I use when list building and I haven't had (many) illegal lists with it so I'm kind of stuck in my ways.

I also saw y'all arguing about the SSAG mek and boy do I love that guy.

My other favorite model is by far Mad doc grotsnicks, when the going gets tough, grotsnick gets chopping.

 vercingatorix wrote:
Hey Everyone,
Steve(N!) Pampreen here

bored at work so feel free to ask me anything orky about Adepticon.

If you're curious about list stuff, I also built Elliot Levy's list for him and he did pretty well with it. If I had had the models that's probably what I would have done.

I did read back a few pages and want to say sorry for the format, that's what I use when list building and I haven't had (many) illegal lists with it so I'm kind of stuck in my ways.

I also saw y'all arguing about the SSAG mek and boy do I love that guy.

My other favorite model is by far Mad doc grotsnicks, when the going gets tough, grotsnick gets chopping.

I think the most obvious question is how much do you think the Adepticon format helped your list/what would you do differently in a pure ITC format?

The next question I'd have is unrelated to Adepticon specifically but I'm sure you won't mind answering - how confident are you with Orks going into a meta of 85 pt easy include, tailored Assassins, bolter rules, troops that potentially deny Da Jump etc? Are you making any changes to your LVO list to better prepare for these new problems?

Are you sticking with Lootas? I saw them do work at Adepticon but they are thirsty.

I think the most obvious question is how much do you think the Adepticon format helped your list/what would you do differently in a pure ITC format?

I think adepticon format generally helped but only in that I didn't have to concern myself with missions because I would just focus on tabling. That's basically what I did in ITC anyway but sometimes in ITC it would cost me. I'm sure some of you noticed I brought the exact same list. Given more prep time I likely would have gone with Elliot Levy's list as I think it's more unique. Looking back at the results though I think my current list is stronger.

The next question I'd have is unrelated to Adepticon specifically but I'm sure you won't mind answering - how confident are you with Orks going into a meta of 85 pt easy include, tailored Assassins, bolter rules, troops that potentially deny Da Jump etc? Are you making any changes to your LVO list to better prepare for these new problems?

Reasonably confident, It'll certainly be annoying but I haven't really been challenged by imperium lists. Assassins killing my characters doesn't change the fact that I only need a single turn of lootas and 2 turns of SAG mek to maul an imperium army beyond recognition. Hopefully the knight point increases will offset any benefit.

The same is kind of true for bolter rules, I just haven't had issues with those armies in the past so unless they got A LOT better then it's just a matter of I'll get more tired during those matches. Justin Curtis and I played a game for fun with new chaos and I was seriously impressed. I think that'll by my new boogie man.

Are you sticking with Lootas? I saw them do work at Adepticon but they are thirsty.

I keep trying to do something else but honestly, they just win games. Even with multiple vects and what not. They won the game I had against Juice, I was just too tired to effectively manage my clock but lootas single handedly won the game.

Tell us about the chaos stuff that impressed you!

Also if you're not particularly worried about Imperium lists what lists do concern you?

Do you think Lootas will get an adjustment in the FAQ? Do you think they need one?

I was impressed with the bikes and terminators combined with new prayers and old psychic powers. It's a nasty combination that you basically can't stop.

Other ork lists and vect combined with stuff that my lootas usually take care of.
Really my biggest opponent is the clock. I've lost 3 games since the codex that weren't clock related.

one was when I forgot to swing half my loota attacks to clear out genestealers they were in assault with.
second was against nick nanavanti where I picked secondaries like I was gonna actually play him then decided I was gonna yolo. So I tabled him but lost cause no secondaries. Super fun game though lol.
Third was alex harrison.

All three of those games involved colossal mistakes on my part where I would have as nearly guaranteed as you can be in 40k won if I hadn't done the dumb thing.

Then I've lost like 5 or 6 games to getting clocked out. Including at Adepticon. My round 4 opponent I clocked him out and had 10 minutes left on mine then the game still ended so I lost because adepticon has weird rules about clocks. Funnily enough the exact same thing happened to Nick nanavanti round 1 of day 2 to the same opponent. I got clocked out by Juice when I would have damn near tabled him.

Basically I just need to play faster. Orks are the best army in the game right now IMO, at least with how I prefer to play.

FAQ:
I hope Mob up gets some adjustment so that it only works on boys. I don't run the loota mob up because it's unnecessary. It just creates feel bad moments where you go first, mob up, roll 3 shots, and just win. It's not good for mid tables.

With 15 doing that you still should win most of the time but it's not "we might as well shake hands now" kind of win.

What do you think you did differently that helped you beat the flyer spam list your last round at Adepticon that you lost to at LVO?

just to clarify, if you bring an index option it gets access to your kultur? aka, if i want a deathskullz brigade to make use of the rerolls, i can fill those slots with index choices of KMB koptas?

They have the (clan) keyword same as codex so yes

 vercingatorix wrote:
Hey Everyone,
Steve(N!) Pampreen here

bored at work so feel free to ask me anything orky about Adepticon.

If you're curious about list stuff, I also built Elliot Levy's list for him and he did pretty well with it. If I had had the models that's probably what I would have done.

I did read back a few pages and want to say sorry for the format, that's what I use when list building and I haven't had (many) illegal lists with it so I'm kind of stuck in my ways.

I also saw y'all arguing about the SSAG mek and boy do I love that guy.

My other favorite model is by far Mad doc grotsnicks, when the going gets tough, grotsnick gets chopping.

Hey man I have HEAPS of questions! Firstly, congrats on just killing it with Orks, inspirational mate.
I run a similar but different list to you, so my questions are basically gameplay tips, I do alright with this list, I have a positive win ratio but I'm not topping GTs yet.

* I have trouble using my small amount of grots effectively, I feel like my lootas often remain in exactly my deployment location or I da jump them to commit suicide. However, when I move my grots forward to gain a better foothold they get shot off the board and I'm still trapped with my loota mobility. What am I doing wrong here? How do you consider your loota placement in deployment? And what do you do in game to get more movement, if at all.

* ITC wise: Is Recon a trap? Is your list just a castle that cripples the opponent and then moves out? Or are you advancing forward with the boys from turn 1. What secondaries do you take in the mirror?

* How often do you deep strike your lootas? And with boyz squads, what variables do you consider important enough to force you to deepstrike boyz?

* What is your opinion on the 15 loota 10+ smasha gun lists that are running around? Do mek guns give over too many kill points?

Ive been mulling over the size of my grot mobs. I find that i usually have a few points left over and usually just plonk a few extra ablative wounds into my grot shields but its not based on anything concrete and tbh, they usually just evaporate to morale.

I often wonder if there would be a mathematically optimal number to take per squad? I expect them all to die, it's their job after all, but I'm interested in what might make it the most annoying for an opponent to have to take down, with an extra couple of grots hanging around getting in the way and taking up valuable wounds?

At the moment, 10 seems OK because that's usually as much as it takes for any shooting to kill, with any survivors usually evaporating to morale. Just looking at trying to waste my opponents shooting attacks for the minimum amount of points.

Thoughts?

I also think 10 is fine, but if you want them to last longer, the only way I can think of is to make the shielded unit harder to Wound. Throwing a Painboy and KFF aura over your Orkz means less Wounds pass onto the Grots, which means it'll take longer to take them down.

 flandarz wrote:
I also think 10 is fine, but if you want them to last longer, the only way I can think of is to make the shielded unit harder to Wound. Throwing a Painboy and KFF aura over your Orkz means less Wounds pass onto the Grots, which means it'll take longer to take them down.

Umm you roll to transfer each time roll to wound has been made so those don't help.

Does help if the grots themselves are inside as otherwise rather than target unit they clear T2 grots directly first.

Also bigger squads+either warboss or runtherd to deal with morale.

If neither then no point going for above 10 except with remnant points with no other use. Use those as extra deep strike buffer or something.,

According to the wording of Grot Shields, you roll when the Shielded unit "loses a Wound."

Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time a model
from that unit loses a wound if there is a friendly unit
comprised entirely of <CLAN> GRETCHIN INFANTRY models
within 6" of it, and the GRETCHIN unit is closer to the
attacking model than the target.

From my interpretation, this occurs after Saves and FnP. Because your unit doesn't lose a Wound until both of those fail. You still have to use the Stratagem before then (occurs when the unit is hit with a Ranged Attack), but seems like the transfer doesn't actually take effect until the attack passes Wounding, Saves, and FnP.

Is that codex or faq version? Codex version was rewritten in faq to prevent lascannom killing d6 grots etc.

Codex, but that wording I posted there didn't change in the FAQ.

To be clear, this is the FAQ version, from what I found:

Stratagems, Grot Shields Change the rules text to read: ‘Use this Stratagem after a Infantry unit from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of Gretchin models) has been hit by a ranged weapon. Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of Gretchin Infantry models within 6″ of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that Gretchin unit is slain and the attack sequence ends.’


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though, I guess there's room for interpretation there. Ie: whether you consider a unit "wounded" when they fail a Wound roll, but before Saves and FnP, or after those when the unit actually takes a Wound.

Per faq:

Page 127 – Stratagems, Grot ShieldsChange the rules text to read:‘Use this Stratagem after a <Clan> Infantry unit from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of Gretchin models) has been hit by a ranged weapon. Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan> Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that Gretchin unit is slain and the attack sequence ends.

Not "suffers a wound" but "range weapon wounds" which is talking about the actual "To Wound" roll.
They basically flipped it because the old one was a bit weirdly texted. Way the Codex was worded was multiple wound weapons would just rip apart grot shields, the faq version negates the ork save but its 1 grot per 1 wound roll instead of wound suffered. Which is WAY better.

 flandarz wrote:
Codex, but that wording I posted there didn't change in the FAQ.

Don't have codex at hand but lirc codex said suffers a wound. Which has big impact as it talks after damage is rolled. If you think it didn't change guess you don't mind rolling 2+ d6 time vs lascannon like codex has it?

I posted directly from the Codex up there. It said "loses a Wound". Obviously, if you got a model with more than 1 Wound, you could "lose" more than a single Grot. But 1 Wound Models can only lose 1 Wound, so you should only ever lose Grots on a 1 to 1 basis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Missed that post, Vine. I agree with you guys, for the most part. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it. Still think the new version is pretty weirdly worded though. Probably shoulda used "when the Unit fails a Wound Roll" instead of "attack with a ranged weapon Wounds that unit." Cuz I don't consider a unit "wounded" until it takes actual damage. Might just be me though.

FAils a wound roll? Ummm so for S3 weapons wounding orks on 5+ you would roll for grot save on 1, 2, 3 and 4...Now THAT would be weird rule.

If they wanted to make it for every wound suffered after saves they could write "for every unsaved wound...".

I say "fail" as in it "wounded" the unit. But I kinda feel like you knew that and just wanted to nitpick.

To be fair, if they wanted it to be after the Wound roll, but before Saves, they also could have just said that. As is, the FAQ version is still pretty ambiguous.

When stages are "to hit, to wound, save, damage" and it says "when you wound" it's pretty clear. What you do when you roll 4+ with S4 vs T4? That's right. You wound the target.

Considering the definition if "wound" is "an injury or to cause an injury", I'd say it's pretty ambiguous. For example, in your steps, if you pass your "to wound" but fail to damage the target because of their Save, do their Wounds go down? When you have two things using the same name, you need to be clear which one you're referring to.

Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 *each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds* that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan> Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit.

The relevant portion is in asterisks. Now, do you Wound a model when you succeed your S vs T roll, or when it actually takes damage and you remove a Wound from the model?

 flandarz wrote:
Considering the definition if "wound" is "an injury or to cause an injury", I'd say it's pretty ambiguous. For example, in your steps, if you pass your "to wound" but fail to damage the target because of their Save, do their Wounds go down? When you have two things using the same name, you need to be clear which one you're referring to.

Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 *each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds* that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan> Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit.

The relevant portion is in asterisks. Now, do you Wound a model when you succeed your S vs T roll, or when it actually takes damage and you remove a Wound from the model?

The sequence on p181 of the rule book says;

4. Resolve Attacks

1. Hit Roll...

2. Wound Roll.
If an attack scores a hit, you will then need to roll another dice to see if the attack successfully wounds the target...

3. Allocate wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit. ...

4. Saving throw: ...If the result is less than the models's save charecteristic, then the saving throw fails and the model suffers damage....

5. Inflict damage: ...A model loses one wound for each point if damage it suffers...

It's clear from the sequence in the book that the point at which a ranged weapons wounds a target is at step 2, before the saving throw at step 4. After that it's referred to as damage to the wound charecteristic.

So I would declare that I am using the grot shields strategem after a successful step 1, then roll my 2+ after step 2. That's how I interpret it.

I *do* understand where it's supposed to be done. What I'm saying is that the wording is bad. Cuz until you fail that Save and assign that damage, your unit hasn't lost a Wound. Which makes it ambiguous as to whether it has been "wounded". And that's aside from the last part of the FAQ Grot Shield, which states a 2+ ends the "attack phase".

Again, I'm well aware of how Grot Shields is supposed to work. I'm just saying its wording is terrible and should be more clear.