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I hope they make the smashas more points expensive. It' s only way how to save my money and time. So much money for original models, so much time for conversions and so much work to paint the complicated model + 6 grots per model á 30p.... aaaargh

I think the Mek Gun chassis and other options are actually pretty fairly priced. 45pts for 1 auto-hitting shot that rolls damage twice against Flyers and makes them auto-Crash is fair. 60 pts for the KMK is also fine. I'd say the Smasha needs about a 5pt increase, and the Bubblechukka probably needs a 10 pt decrease.

IF it gets a hyke i hope its to the chassis itself, otherwise the wazbom goes up in price too.
Bump the base cost a bit and drop the non-smasha weapons to compensate. I dont think the smasha is broken, its just the super cheap mek gun base statline for 15pts on top of the great gun is whats silly lol

Alternatively, drop the price of a Wazbom too.

 Jidmah wrote:
Orks placing first and second in Montreal:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/d1rvb2/pandas_weekend_rundown_907908/

In additon to his Flash Gits, Steven brought a battlewagon full of tankbustas, apparently to grenade things to death. He is also back to "just" 12 smashas.

Second place went to a guy a bunch of evil suns boyz and mobbed up bad moon shootas with smashas behind it. Probably going full tellyporta assault in T2?

So he brought a battlewagon to suicide tankbustas? Seems kind of strange to me, I understand its rather effective, a single strat almost doubles the Tankbustas shots and increases damage by a significant amount, but unless its against a pair or vehicles OR an expensive knight you are just throwing points away because the enemy will then pulverize the bustas on their next shooting phase because they can't use strats unless they are outside the vehicle.

 flandarz wrote:
I think the Mek Gun chassis and other options are actually pretty fairly priced. 45pts for 1 auto-hitting shot that rolls damage twice against Flyers and makes them auto-Crash is fair. 60 pts for the KMK is also fine. I'd say the Smasha needs about a 5pt increase, and the Bubblechukka probably needs a 10 pt decrease.

It seems to me someone at GW must have just screwed up and swapped smashas and bubblechukkas. I don't think I'd use the bubblechukka at anything more than 35.

I agree with that. Just too swingy to count on for anything.

You know, at 35 pts, the Smasha isn't even that good. At least, by itself. The easiest fix would probably be to drop the max "squad" size for Mek Gunz from 6 to 3. A single Smasha is kinda worthless (I think the average damage per turn for it is less than 1), but 12 to 18 of them is scary. Drop the maximum you can take by half or more and suddenly it isn't so bad.

Edit: another possibility would be to take away the "separate into individual units" Ability. That'd make them much more of a liability.

Considering the battlewagon has an 'ard case, he almost definitely had them jump out.
Pretty much every army has something worth throwing 10 tankbusta bombs at, plus you still get the other 5 rokkits and bomb squigs, and he can do all that twice.

That, or he is trying to see what else he can get away with

if he manages to get that close, 10 tankbusta bombs would delete any knight in a heartbeat.

I havnt tried to do that because i can never get my tankbustas anywhere near a target. People are rightfully so quite terrified of a wagon with bustas in it lol and will gladly dump excessive firepower to get rid of it asap.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
if he manages to get that close, 10 tankbusta bombs would delete any knight in a heartbeat.

I havnt tried to do that because i can never get my tankbustas anywhere near a target. People are rightfully so quite terrified of a wagon with bustas in it lol and will gladly dump excessive firepower to get rid of it asap.

10 Tankbusta bombs is 20 shots on average for 7 hits with all rerolls so another 4ish for 11 total hits, with Dakkax3 that is probably another 3 hits so 14 total. Against a Knight its 7 wounds, against a 5+ Invuln its 5ish causing damage and at 3.5 a piece that is 17.5 damage, add in another strat to either shoot again, or dakka on 5s and yeah, you are probably killing the knight in 1 shot....unless he gets the 4+. The Bomb squigs are harder to say because they are so swingy. But yeah, a tankbusta bomb squad can definitely ice a knight in 1 turn.

Perhaps he teleported in the wagon, expelled the bustas and charged another target to protect them from return fire as best he could? I'm assuming a squad of boys also jumped upfield to offer some screening or perhaps even Grots?

Smashas will almost certainly go up in price and deservedly so in my opinion. They are too cheap and effective. Look at how many get taken.

To be fair, a lot get taken because in small numbers Smashas are pretty bad. A single Smasha is gonna get 2 shots,1.16 hits, 0.49 Wounds (against T8), and 0.85 Damage (against 4++, which is fairly common, 1.7 Damage without an Invuln), on average. Not exactly game-breaking. In order for Smashas to be worth taking, you kinda HAVE to spam them.

Though, I agree that they ARE pretty dang cheap. Cheap enough that the lack of Kultur and Stratagems doesn't hurt them at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Multiply the above by 6 (5.1 Damage and 10.2 Damage), for the amount of Smashas equivalent to a 30 strong Shoota Boy Blob. Which will get, on average, 5.82 damage against T4, Sv4+ targets, in Ranged, and another 3.75 Wounds in CC (assuming you can only get 12 of them into CC range, you didn't bring a Boss Nob, and accounting for the Charge fail chance of Evil Sunz Boyz). Doesn't seem quite so broken anymore, honestly.

Edit: Though, to be fair, the Smashas are "technically" harder to kill than the Boyz, due to higher T (5 vs 4) more Wounds (36 vs 30), a better Save (4++ vs 6++), and their "split into individual units" rule.

With the Tankbustas in a wagon, it's also possible that he's used the wagon to block LOS to the Tankbustas from the bulk of the incoming fire. Also factor in that the enemy will be depleted from a lack of a knight, and will have the rest of his army to worry about!

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
if he manages to get that close, 10 tankbusta bombs would delete any knight in a heartbeat.

I havnt tried to do that because i can never get my tankbustas anywhere near a target. People are rightfully so quite terrified of a wagon with bustas in it lol and will gladly dump excessive firepower to get rid of it asap.

10 Tankbusta bombs is 20 shots on average for 7 hits with all rerolls so another 4ish for 11 total hits, with Dakkax3 that is probably another 3 hits so 14 total. Against a Knight its 7 wounds, against a 5+ Invuln its 5ish causing damage and at 3.5 a piece that is 17.5 damage, add in another strat to either shoot again, or dakka on 5s and yeah, you are probably killing the knight in 1 shot....unless he gets the 4+. The Bomb squigs are harder to say because they are so swingy. But yeah, a tankbusta bomb squad can definitely ice a knight in 1 turn.

10 bombs + 5 bustas with rerolls, no MD or SO, is 14 (13,889 so nobody can whine that I lie) hits; which means 21.6 hits ( you reroll the DDD too, you knöw that right?). This generates 11 (10.8) W, which results in 24.5 W on 5++ or 18.4 on 4+++
This is without showing off or more dakka.
You guys can have opinion on everything but mathematics.
I suggest using this site next time mathhammer8thed.com/

He did agree with you though.

SemperMortis wrote:But yeah, a tankbusta bomb squad can definitely ice a knight in 1 turn.

Judging from some other threads here on dakka and on reddit it currently seems to be common wisdom that killing smashas as fast as possible is the way to handle ork lists - if that's what people are doing, I'm not surprised if the battlewagon lasts until turn 2.

Tankbustas have a 5' movement, so move 8' away from the battlewagon. TB bombs have a 6' range right ?
So basically you need your opponent playing knights to leave a BW alive and within 14' of their knight.
I know knight players are usually not the most skilled players out there (it's why they play such a low bodycount army, because it is easier to play), but still...

I personally think he just shot stuff at 24', and perhaps during one game one of his opponents forgot about the TB bombs and moved a juicy target within 14' of the wagon.

Bad moon Tankbustas in a ard case BW is not a bad idea, but you need to have a strong hunch about the meta (or be in a team tournament to get properly matched up).

Last time I took Tankbustas at a tourney I played against Tau for my first match (0 vehicules), then Tzeentch + CSM (0 vehicules again) and finally a chaos list with a few vevhicules which i would have wrecked any way even without the bustas. Suffice to say they really were not needed...

addnid wrote:
Tankbustas have a 5' movement, so move 8' away from the battlewagon. TB bombs have a 6' range right ?
So basically you need your opponent playing knights to leave a BW alive and within 14' of their knight.
I know knight players are usually not the most skilled players out there (it's why they play such a low bodycount army, because it is easier to play), but still...

That is the biggest problem, but in any decent tournament, you can safely hide at least one veichle T1 which should be enough for t2, as you should jump the grots for shield t1 and conga line then towards the runtherd.

addnid wrote:
Tankbustas have a 5' movement, so move 8' away from the battlewagon. TB bombs have a 6' range right ?
So basically you need your opponent playing knights to leave a BW alive and within 14' of their knight.
I know knight players are usually not the most skilled players out there (it's why they play such a low bodycount army, because it is easier to play), but still...

He went 5-0 at a fairly large tournament, so it's safe to assume that his opponent were not low-skilled knights players.
Also note that one major list you need to handle is eldar fliers, tankbustas do that fairly well, and those are usually close enough to throw bombs at.

I personally think he just shot stuff at 24', and perhaps during one game one of his opponents forgot about the TB bombs and moved a juicy target within 14' of the wagon.

A spectator confirmed that he was using the battlewagon to grenade things to death, so this is a fact, not a matter of opinion.

Last time I took Tankbustas at a tourney I played against Tau for my first match (0 vehicules), then Tzeentch + CSM (0 vehicules again) and finally a chaos list with a few vevhicules which i would have wrecked any way even without the bustas. Suffice to say they really were not needed...

Tank bustas can still bomb a riptide to death, they don't roll over and do nothing just becasue they re-rolling ones instead of all their rolls. S8 AP-2 D3 is fairly versatile, you just need to find good targets for them - killing dangerous elite units like agressors, broadsides, skyweavers or havocs is not a waste of their potential.

I really wanna know if he's deploying the wagon or not, I am gonna use that list next gt and I think it is must vs knights

Good question.
On one hand, thats a crazy high value target.
On the other like Jidmah pointed out, people tend to be going for the mekgunz first so he could have been depending on that and deployed it normally.

Either way, unless the knight was moving forward, theres no way hes getting 10 models in 6" of any big vehicle or riptide until T3. And no shooting as he rolls up the field so not like hes gaining anything by doing that instead either.

Crazy idea...probably not worth the points.

Aegis defense line for grot shield grots. The idea being that ADL is terrain, so it can block line of sight. Grots are short enough to hide behind it and would become untargetable.

With this the loota bomb could be placed anywhere. Worth even half the points of the ADL?

You can just bring 25 gretchin instead of the ADL, so probably not - they can still just target the lootas to kill them, they just have worse to wound rolls.

Hey everyone,

Had a super fun time this weekend. I read through you questions and they revolved around bustas in the wagon.

Did I reserve it?
No, the whole point of the thing was so I DIDN'T have to reserve the tank bustas. In fact, I never reserved anything the whole tournament. I also lost my only game at CCBB to my montreal round 4 opponent because he had a bommer that could kill my bustas despite LOS or grot shield. Putting them in a wagon prevented that.

Did I use grenade strat?

I grenaded the hell out of things. I used it in 3/5 games and the only reason I didn't use it in the other two was because my opponent through everything they had at bustas to kill them or I wanted to run to a second floor to snipe a misplaced character.

1st game I used grenades to remove most of a custodes walking squad.

2nd game I used it to increase their volume to finish off an ork boys squad so they wouldn't green tide.

3rd game my opponent was simply not paying attention and moved 2 caladius grav tanks in range turn 1. My bustas nuked 2 of them (it would have been 3 but 16 rokkit shots wounded once on the other tank). That turn my warboss + flash gitz killed a knight, and my SAG mek did 8 wounds to a shadowsword, and my smasha guns finished off the third caladius. So, 3 caladius, and a knight down turn 1. it was awesome.


I had a ton of fun with those explody bois.

feel free to ask any other questions

Do you feel like the +1T on the wagon was big enough to justify not letting the tankbustas fire out of it?
For me i usually dont notice much difference between T7 and T8 for a wagon, it might survive a couple more bullets, but loss of the shooting of whats inside sucks.

 vercingatorix wrote:
Hey everyone,

Had a super fun time this weekend. I read through you questions and they revolved around bustas in the wagon.

Did I reserve it?
No, the whole point of the thing was so I DIDN'T have to reserve the tank bustas. In fact, I never reserved anything the whole tournament. I also lost my only game at CCBB to my montreal round 4 opponent because he had a bommer that could kill my bustas despite LOS or grot shield. Putting them in a wagon prevented that.

Did I use grenade strat?

I grenaded the hell out of things. I used it in 3/5 games and the only reason I didn't use it in the other two was because my opponent through everything they had at bustas to kill them or I wanted to run to a second floor to snipe a misplaced character.

1st game I used grenades to remove most of a custodes walking squad.

2nd game I used it to increase their volume to finish off an ork boys squad so they wouldn't green tide.

3rd game my opponent was simply not paying attention and moved 2 caladius grav tanks in range turn 1. My bustas nuked 2 of them (it would have been 3 but 16 rokkit shots wounded once on the other tank). That turn my warboss + flash gitz killed a knight, and my SAG mek did 8 wounds to a shadowsword, and my smasha guns finished off the third caladius. So, 3 caladius, and a knight down turn 1. it was awesome.


I had a ton of fun with those explody bois.

feel free to ask any other questions

You are a fORKlore hero!
Do you jump your grots and/or run them in order to dominate th board?
Do you play the long war and start to take secondaries T3 or do you go for smashing stuff asap?
Favorite secondaries?

Congrats again man

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Do you feel like the +1T on the wagon was big enough to justify not letting the tankbustas fire out of it?
For me i usually dont notice much difference between T7 and T8 for a wagon, it might survive a couple more bullets, but loss of the shooting of whats inside sucks.

Bustas are best used when double firing with more dakka, since you can't use strats on them inside wagon.

I didn't find a huge difference in toughness but I also know that my local meta has nick rose spamming marine autocannons so I'm gonna keep it T8. I never got to use the deffrolla so I think I'm gonna lose that even.

You are a fORKlore hero!
Do you jump your grots and/or run them in order to dominate th board?
Do you play the long war and start to take secondaries T3 or do you go for smashing stuff asap?
Favorite secondaries?

Congrats again man

Just living my best ork life.

I da jup them rarely. I did against chris in round 2. I got 30 grots over in position to murder 10 of his with pistols. They do run a lot. My last game I had one squad on 3 of the 4 objectives and one squad on 2 objectives preventing my opponent from scoring a point for holding an objective. That happened in multiple games where I didn't score a ton but I held my opponents to 1 or 2 points over the last 2 turns of the game letting me cement a lead.

I don't play long game, every game is over by turn 2, 3 at the latest. It's why Tau case me so much trouble. They have the staying power against me.

Favorite secondary is definitely Big game hunter cause it means they brought vehicles and my bustas are about to have a really good game.

Hello fellow Greenskins.

I have an upcoming event where I have to play three games with the following conditions:

- 2000 Points
- Max. 3 Detachments
- Stealing the initiative is impossible
- Ground Floors are LOS blocking
- No Maelstrom
- Deployment maps are: Long Site, Short Side, the one where you have circle of 9" in the middle
- Missions for all three games will be Vital Intelligence as primary and Big guns never tire (You can choose the battlefield role) as secondary.
- 1 hour and 20 minutes for every player.

I have some real trouble coming up with a good list, especially as I have never played an event where you have the same mission over and over again. Can you give me some tipps as to what units you would take and which one you don`t? I have basically the whole Codex available, as long as you do not expect absurd amounts of one unit like 9 scrapjets.

Check the OP for the current "best" and "worst" unit choices. There's also some lists at the bottom of that post that should give you a solid idea of what works and what doesn't.

 vercingatorix wrote:
Hey everyone,

Had a super fun time this weekend. I read through you questions and they revolved around bustas in the wagon.

Did I reserve it?
No, the whole point of the thing was so I DIDN'T have to reserve the tank bustas. In fact, I never reserved anything the whole tournament. I also lost my only game at CCBB to my montreal round 4 opponent because he had a bommer that could kill my bustas despite LOS or grot shield. Putting them in a wagon prevented that.

Did I use grenade strat?

I grenaded the hell out of things. I used it in 3/5 games and the only reason I didn't use it in the other two was because my opponent through everything they had at bustas to kill them or I wanted to run to a second floor to snipe a misplaced character.

1st game I used grenades to remove most of a custodes walking squad.

2nd game I used it to increase their volume to finish off an ork boys squad so they wouldn't green tide.

3rd game my opponent was simply not paying attention and moved 2 caladius grav tanks in range turn 1. My bustas nuked 2 of them (it would have been 3 but 16 rokkit shots wounded once on the other tank). That turn my warboss + flash gitz killed a knight, and my SAG mek did 8 wounds to a shadowsword, and my smasha guns finished off the third caladius. So, 3 caladius, and a knight down turn 1. it was awesome.


I had a ton of fun with those explody bois.

feel free to ask any other questions

Thanks for all dem explosiv’ Taktiks ! Do you feel like a second « no deffrolla » battlewagon for say the flashgitz for example would be possible ? Or would that be too many points and too much big stuff to hide ?

 Emicrania wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
if he manages to get that close, 10 tankbusta bombs would delete any knight in a heartbeat.

I havnt tried to do that because i can never get my tankbustas anywhere near a target. People are rightfully so quite terrified of a wagon with bustas in it lol and will gladly dump excessive firepower to get rid of it asap.

10 Tankbusta bombs is 20 shots on average for 7 hits with all rerolls so another 4ish for 11 total hits, with Dakkax3 that is probably another 3 hits so 14 total. Against a Knight its 7 wounds, against a 5+ Invuln its 5ish causing damage and at 3.5 a piece that is 17.5 damage, add in another strat to either shoot again, or dakka on 5s and yeah, you are probably killing the knight in 1 shot....unless he gets the 4+. The Bomb squigs are harder to say because they are so swingy. But yeah, a tankbusta bomb squad can definitely ice a knight in 1 turn.

10 bombs + 5 bustas with rerolls, no MD or SO, is 14 (13,889 so nobody can whine that I lie) hits; which means 21.6 hits ( you reroll the DDD too, you knöw that right?). This generates 11 (10.8) W, which results in 24.5 W on 5++ or 18.4 on 4+++
This is without showing off or more dakka.
You guys can have opinion on everything but mathematics.
I suggest using this site next time mathhammer8thed.com/

The original comment was "10 tankbusta bombs would delete any knight in a heartbeat" which i took to mean 10 tankbusters throwing 10 grenades using the strat, because 10 tankbusta bombs by themselves would not kill a knight.

But again, 10 D3 is 20 shots. 20 shots= 7 initial hits (Hitting on 5s, so 3.5 are 6s for rerolls) So you get 13 normal rerolls which = 4.3 more hits for another 2.15 6s so 5.65 more dakkax3 rerolls which = 1.88 more hits and another 1.25 with rerolls, so for simplicity lets say 3 more hits for a total 3+4.3+7 = 14.3 total hits out of 20 shots. So really good results. 14.3 = 7.15 wounds against T8. Vs a 5++ that is 4.76 that go through which x3.5 = 16.68 damage on average, using 1 strat.

So to summarize, 10 tankbusters BY THEMSELVES using the grenade strat can inflict 16.68 damage against a T8 knight with a 5++.


Now if you were talking about Pamp's list that would explain the +5 tankbustas which makes your math about right But as already pointed out, this requires your opponent to get danger close to the Wagon, and anyturn the Busters are in the wagon they can not shoot because it is not open topped with a Ard case. Also, if you Teleporta the wagon it can't disgorge its passengers that turn to shoot because the strat says it happens at the END of the movement phase which means it can't just disgorge its passengers, and since you can't tellyporta turn 1 that means your busters only get to play from Turn 3 onward AND they have to survive at least 1 full shooting phase in that wagon which isn't that tough to kill, especially for a knight list which has already had 1 full turn to nuke those Mek gunz.

I have no idea how Pampreen did what he did, I would love to see a video of the game to try and learn some new tactics.