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SemperMortis wrote:
Even if you use him as a counter charge unit, you will by necessity have to keep him out of LOS because those assault centurions aren't attacking turn 1 which means your opponent will get at least 2 turns of shooting at Ghaz before those cents are ready to be counter charged.

This falls into the "Too new to know" category. Emi's opponent made a tactical mistake because he didn't understand ghaz yet. its unlikely someone is going to make that same blunder twice so as players get a bit more experience against him they will realize how useless the model is and will designate some shooting to it and then promptly ignore it until it needs to be dealt with.

Well on any decent board he will have easy time hiding out of LOS if you aren't rushing forward at full speed. And if he's being used as counter charge that indicates that opponent, not you, is the one doing the moving forward so ghaz has less incentive to hop out of LOS.

Similar to my sister penitent engines. Stay out of LOS, then come forward when enemy comes forth. And those are harder to hide(3-4 models only slightly smaller vs 1 model).

tneva82 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Even if you use him as a counter charge unit, you will by necessity have to keep him out of LOS because those assault centurions aren't attacking turn 1 which means your opponent will get at least 2 turns of shooting at Ghaz before those cents are ready to be counter charged.

This falls into the "Too new to know" category. Emi's opponent made a tactical mistake because he didn't understand ghaz yet. its unlikely someone is going to make that same blunder twice so as players get a bit more experience against him they will realize how useless the model is and will designate some shooting to it and then promptly ignore it until it needs to be dealt with.

Well on any decent board he will have easy time hiding out of LOS if you aren't rushing forward at full speed. And if he's being used as counter charge that indicates that opponent, not you, is the one doing the moving forward so ghaz has less incentive to hop out of LOS.

Similar to my sister penitent engines. Stay out of LOS, then come forward when enemy comes forth. And those are harder to hide(3-4 models only slightly smaller vs 1 model).

The issue with that is that you're leaving near 300 points sitting about doing nothing, hoping that the enemy will get close enough for Ghaz to charge them. And while he's sitting about, he isn't buffing the units that you want to be throwing into your opponents face.

Personally I would want Ghaz to be earning his points back as early as possible, so that I can get a points advantage and try to punish the opponent once I'm up. I would want him in the enemy's face, buffing things in combat and making the most of those high strength and damage attacks.

But that's me. As we've already said, time will tell whether Ghaz is a competitive choice or not.

weaver9 wrote:
With the exception of space marines most true gunline armies may be hard pressed to deal damage to him outside the shooting phase. Tau, IG, Necrons, don't have a ton of psychic or melee.

First of all they can just gun them down over the course of three shooting phases, that's how long he needs to reach combat if barreling forward at full speed.
That aside, neither tau nor IG nor necrons have trouble adding a second phase of damage, if not a third. Both tau and guard can throw down some pretty mean overwatch in the charge phase, necrons get C'Tan powers in the movement phase, both necrons and IG have some heavy counter-charge units themselves, and IG is regularly seen bringing primaris psykers or inquisitors. Not to mention all the odd abilities and stratagems that deal mortal wounds at odd times, like that kroot tracker, Immothekh's lightning or

But that wasn't really my point. He is a hard counter to melee alpha-strikes, which is something certain armies rely heavily on right now.
The armies I mentioned sit on their side of the table and will protect anything valuable from deep strikes, while not getting close enough for a counter-charge unit to have any effect. To get anything out of Thrakka against these armies you need to deep strike him or charge towards that army. Which basically means that you won't be getting anything worth your points.

I find it difficult to work him into lists thus far, but I would likely keep him in the tellyporta till needed. Even if that's to camp a far off objective, he presents a natural immunity to being shot off the board, and has a smaller footpront than 30 boyz, so is easier to place when deep striking.

I really don't think that's worth 285 points. MANz can to the same for much cheaper.

For me it works very good ATM because it allows me to have 125 fearless grots that run forward and takes the board.
That is backed by massive firepower and 2 bomber and a DJ that forces my opponent to do 2 things, either be out of LoS and let me take total control of the board , or come at me and munch thru 120 fearless bodies, needing to take him down before arriving to my gunline. Most of the time he sits and just treath to punch you, which is fine by me. I Can easily win by hold, hold more, bonus, board control secondaries, without needing to kill anything .
Last game I had my opponent caged up in a enclosed ruin for 4 turns in order to screen his carcathers and elite infantry. By T5 I was so much in advantage with points that didn't matter he came out and killed 5 units per turn.
Patience and control are more important than shoot an chop up stuff, especially in ITC and WTC ATM.
I'll try him out tomorrow Vs 2 hard lists with inquisition souped with as mech Vs one of the top 10 in Sweden and 5-1 LVO player and Vs another hard core meta chaser with RG. I'll let you guys know.

How do you even keep those gretchin alive? Your meta is much more competitive than mine, and I easily lose 40+ turn one despite hiding them

Usually what kills grots vaporize Vs SSAG, Flashgitz, Smashaguns and gunwagon (mine works good Jid ). So when I do lose 30-40 grots in a turn, I retaliate hard, so is always a tricky choice since I can break heads of everything on 6" range AND I will always save 1 grot for 2 CP and deny kill more.

Eh, my SSAG also took six games to kill its first model. But then it one-shot a stormhawk and a predator in one turn

Will keep trying to make them work anyways, the battlewagon model was one of my reasons to start playing 40k in the first place.

About the gretchin - yeah, that makes sense. My lists have absolutely no infantry otherwise, so naturally people would rather shoot gretchin than maybe plonk a wound off a buggy.

 Emicrania wrote:

I'll try him out tomorrow Vs 2 hard lists with inquisition souped with as mech Vs one of the top 10 in Sweden and 5-1 LVO player and Vs another hard core meta chaser with RG. I'll let you guys know.

You’re doing Gorks ( or Morks) work!

How have you dealt with something like the tau matchup fielding that list? Just take the centre and try to out score them on primaries?

Wakshaani wrote:
As an aside, GW's "Price adjustments" which, you know, I think we all know means going up, not down, include at least the following:

Ork Boys
Grots
Nobz
Lootas/Burnas
Bikes
Trukks

…

Ouch.

I have a decent selection of most of these, but it's getting harder and harder for new Ork players to get made. That's a huge chunk of must-haves there.

For real? Orks are an expensive army to begin with, making the core parts of the army more expensive is just going to make it even more of a pain for both expanding lists and newer guys to get into da WAAAGH!.

I feel like of all things, GW should try to keep the core essentials (HQ, Troops), relatively low to keep the barrier of entry more palatable. Especially for non-elite armies like Orks where you already need multiple boxes to even consider playing them. Otherwise it's lost money to the second-hand market like eBay.

 Grimskul wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
As an aside, GW's "Price adjustments" which, you know, I think we all know means going up, not down, include at least the following:

Ork Boys
Grots
Nobz
Lootas/Burnas
Bikes
Trukks

…

Ouch.

I have a decent selection of most of these, but it's getting harder and harder for new Ork players to get made. That's a huge chunk of must-haves there.

For real? Orks are an expensive army to begin with, making the core parts of the army more expensive is just going to make it even more of a pain for both expanding lists and newer guys to get into da WAAAGH!.

I feel like of all things, GW should try to keep the core essentials (HQ, Troops), relatively low to keep the barrier of entry more palatable. Especially for non-elite armies like Orks where you already need multiple boxes to even consider playing them. Otherwise it's lost money to the second-hand market like eBay.

For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.

The workshop is on the list...I mean...I can't even.

 Haasbioroid wrote:
The workshop is on the list...I mean...I can't even.

Gotta double down on that investment they made with that mold I guess. It's really bizarre how crucial faction-specific terrain is atm for AoS, while in 40K it's a complete crapshoot.

I was a little behind with some of the discussion regarding Ghaz, but besides being obviously suboptimal, is the final consensus that he's best taken in mixed Klan list then? Or is it worth it going mainly Goffs with him?

tulun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

I'll try him out tomorrow Vs 2 hard lists with inquisition souped with as mech Vs one of the top 10 in Sweden and 5-1 LVO player and Vs another hard core meta chaser with RG. I'll let you guys know.

You’re doing Gorks ( or Morks) work!

How have you dealt with something like the tau matchup fielding that list? Just take the centre and try to out score them on primaries?

Not yet, but the new Harlequins are gonna be the bane of this list, they just have too much mobility and screening right is just an absolute must.
If Tau comes in with multiple 2 man drone unit, he better get first turn or i´ll wipe him out with the bombers. If he goes first AND he has 3x8 drones or something like that, is gonna be an interesting match for sure!

Wakshaani wrote:
For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.

Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.

 Jidmah wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.

Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.

Yikes! Didn't the boyz box used to have 20 (or 16? Can't remember) boyz a box back then? I remember them being similar to Cadians before they got reboxed/recut to only have half the sprues. I guess they're almost as bad a value as Dire Avengers became when they got reboxed.

 Emicrania wrote:


Not yet, but the new Harlequins are gonna be the bane of this list, they just have too much mobility and screening right is just an absolute must.
If Tau comes in with multiple 2 man drone unit, he better get first turn or i´ll wipe him out with the bombers. If he goes first AND he has 3x8 drones or something like that, is gonna be an interesting match for sure!

Let us know if you encounter the matchup, it'll be interesting to hear. I'd love to field Ghaz unironically if I'm gonna take a billion years to paint him.

That Harlequin army looks crazy in a battle rep I watched a bit of. Charged from like 36" away without breaking a sweat.

I'm basically playing mono army right now, but I have a bunch of 3rd/4th edition Eldar and Nids in storage. Not gonna lie... Playing a harlequin style list on a bunch of jetbikes makes me wanna pick up Eldar again. That looks incredibly fun to play. I love extremely mobile armies (which Nids, Eldar, and Orks were back then), although 8th edition is far less static than when I played in my hayday.

SemperMortis wrote:
You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.

Ghaz is a trap at this point, he might do well for a bit as people figure out how to deal with him but he isn't worth his points and doesn't buff anyone enough to justify taking him at all. Like I said, if the Goff rocker was allowed in matched play it might give more credence to a goff foot sloggin horde but atm there just isn't a place for him.

If his wounds jumped to 16 or his ability changed to 3 wounds a phase. how do you think it would change things? makes it 4 total phases to have to take damage in.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.

Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.

Yikes! Didn't the boyz box used to have 20 (or 16? Can't remember) boyz a box back then? I remember them being similar to Cadians before they got reboxed/recut to only have half the sprues. I guess they're almost as bad a value as Dire Avengers became when they got reboxed.

Nah, the only change to the plastic boyz box was that they added in the nob sprue, but that was before I started playing.

Note: Ghaz is immune to The Storm Lord’s Lightning. It cannot target characters.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.

Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.

Yikes! Didn't the boyz box used to have 20 (or 16? Can't remember) boyz a box back then? I remember them being similar to Cadians before they got reboxed/recut to only have half the sprues. I guess they're almost as bad a value as Dire Avengers became when they got reboxed.

Nah, the only change to the plastic boyz box was that they added in the nob sprue, but that was before I started playing.

Did some online perusing and it seems like it was indeed 16 boyz a box at the time, but without the Nob sprue you mentioned. So pretty much you lost 6 boyz for a Nob. Obviously, this was before the plastic Nob kit was released and so there was only the metals, so I'm sure most players at the time liked that there was an inbuilt Nob in the kit. Definitely feel like they should do a bulk deal though for boyz, where you can get a snap fit one from the AoBR set with 20 slugga boyz for about the current cost of the plastic Boyz box. That way you can choose filler versus options, and it doesn't invalidate the core kit.

Reference point for the older box: https://www.amazon.com/Games-Workshop-Space-Orks-Boyz/dp/B00001WRRI/?tag=google-amz-20

Note that I started playing orks roughly ten years ago, and I've never seen that box. I have never bought a box of boyz without nob+heavy weapon in it.
AFAIK the current boyz sculpt goes all the way back to 2003, and that box even has the old trukk on it.

The two boxes that would build into my first mob of shoota boyz ever have cost me 12.50€ at wayland games, with the next increase boyz will be 25€ at their store.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.

Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.

Yikes! Didn't the boyz box used to have 20 (or 16? Can't remember) boyz a box back then? I remember them being similar to Cadians before they got reboxed/recut to only have half the sprues. I guess they're almost as bad a value as Dire Avengers became when they got reboxed.

I remember buying that box way back when. 16 orks for £18, and then driving through the clamshells of ork nobs until you found one with a power klaw and the gun you wanted. £24 for most of a mob of boys. And I could give my lootas pulse rifles and lascannons and field a looted monolith because the rules were mental. Truly the best time to be in the hobby.

And then we had the Assault on Black Reach box which was an excellent source of cheap and cheerful ork boyz.

The ORGINAL Space Orks box was all metal. I want to say it had 17 models in it? It was an odd number and I never got my hands on one in person.

This was soon followed by the first generation box of Ork Boys which had 36 (!) in one go.

http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rtb13spaceorks/SpaceOrkBox1x-02.jpg

This box I had, and I still have some of the weapon sprues but no more unbuilt bodies from it. These Orks were teensy things compared to today's lads.

They eventually (99 I think? Maybe 98) gave way to the second generation of Boys, who'll look familiar for the old farts like me.

https://resources.nobleknight.com/Catalog/Images/900/900/0/1/0/WHSpaceOrkBoyz16.jpg

This one, most tellingly, dropped the count down to just 16 Boyz in a box. The plastic-metal hybrid kits for 'Ard Boyz, Stormboyz, and Stikkbombz were 8 models... I have a box of 'Ard and Stikk still in the garage, but I never grabbed the Stormboyz.

They got a facelift a bit later, when all the box art got updated.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511ijLLwGLL._AC_SX425_.jpg

There's some GorkaMorka hereabouts.

Then you get to the modern Boyz box:

https://alchemistsworkshops.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/99120103013_OrkBoyzBox.jpg

Now, I can't find any mention of it being sold as just a ten-model box, sans the command sprue with heavy weapon and Nob... all of mine, no matter how far back I go in the garage have 'em … but there were some years there (see Gorka above) when I wasn't active in the hobby so it could have happened … I dunno. Not like GW to re-release a box with a new addition, but, well, Razorback, so it isn't impossible.

Anywho, we're on Gen 3 boys at this stage (Gorka is, like, 2.5, a mutant deviation that was left to die while the stronger line moved forward) and they're tres keen, but with a new set roughly once a decade, we're a year or two away from maybe getting a new one.

Maybe.

But it'll be a couple of years yet, at BEST.

 Emicrania wrote:
For me it works very good ATM because it allows me to have 125 fearless grots that run forward and takes the board.
That is backed by massive firepower and 2 bomber and a DJ that forces my opponent to do 2 things, either be out of LoS and let me take total control of the board , or come at me and munch thru 120 fearless bodies, needing to take him down before arriving to my gunline. Most of the time he sits and just treath to punch you, which is fine by me. I Can easily win by hold, hold more, bonus, board control secondaries, without needing to kill anything .
Last game I had my opponent caged up in a enclosed ruin for 4 turns in order to screen his carcathers and elite infantry. By T5 I was so much in advantage with points that didn't matter he came out and killed 5 units per turn.
Patience and control are more important than shoot an chop up stuff, especially in ITC and WTC ATM.
I'll try him out tomorrow Vs 2 hard lists with inquisition souped with as mech Vs one of the top 10 in Sweden and 5-1 LVO player and Vs another hard core meta chaser with RG. I'll let you guys know.

Nice! Would like to know the how it works out. I'am stil a bit sceptical about the armylist setup but also finding it intriguing.

I think that Astra militarum with tank commanders, (chaos) knights and Aeldari skimmers / flyers with vibro cannons could still take you down. You do well against marines and that could take you far but in the end you lack anti-vehicle shooting. After you dropped the bombs you also lack anti-infantry shooting because the fragile planes can drop fast.

I really hope I'am wrong about this.. orks need a win...

The best way to deal with the price increase is buy a GW shares instead. They do it well from business side of view. Profit on their shares reduce the pain from this piece of plastic price.

That's... genius. Buying shares instead of models and then buy models with the money you make from the shares.

Free warhammer!

Hi, im fairly new to orks. I only have 30 boys and the prophecy of the wolf box. Which units shall i buy next? Multiple 30 boys squats aren't that popular atm. I will buy a big mek with shock attack gun and some grots soon.
I reallt like evil sunz or bad moonz but deathskulls looking good too.

Can't go wrong with a SAG and gretchin really. You should look into getting three units of troops first so you can build a functional army, Thrakka and Makari can be your HQs for the first few games.
Adding another box of MANz would also allow you to field a unit of 5 and build big mek.
And there is the option to get a box of flash gits to combine them with the nobz you have into a unit of 10 gits - the bodies are the same and the flash gits box has enough bits to turn nobz with kustom weapons into flash gits as well.

What kind of games are you going to play? Competitive play in a league or tournament or more casual play among friends?

Are there some units or a certain play style which has already caught your eye that you want to play?

rhazag wrote:
Hi, im fairly new to orks. I only have 30 boys and the prophecy of the wolf box. Which units shall i buy next? Multiple 30 boys squats aren't that popular atm. I will buy a big mek with shock attack gun and some grots soon.
I reallt like evil sunz or bad moonz but deathskulls looking good too.

It depends on what setup you want. There's is lots of scope for massed infantry, vehicle spam, a dread waaagh, buggy spam, mek gun spam, etc.

I would definitely suggest getting a weirdboy, a shokk attack gun and some gretchin as a starting block. That +30 boys is a great starting position and you can go literally anywhere with the rest of your army.

Or, buy what you think looks cool. You don't have to be die-hard competitive all the time.