Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Tomsug wrote:
Honestly, 30 boyz is physicaly the biggest unit in w40k? 30x32mm bases of green badasses. How can we complain, we can' t hide them?

Doesn't the cover rule affect models, and not units? It's impossible to hide 30 dudes but some of them could. Still better than the idea of negating cover for the entire squad is just a single model in it doesn't get the benefit. Or, have I read it wrong?

We LL know more in details next week I'm sure. Somebody else think that the new mat with the "recommend" size will be in the box?

 Tomsug wrote:
Honestly, 30 boyz is physicaly the biggest unit in w40k? 30x32mm bases of green badasses. How can we complain, we can' t hide them?

Although I know you're partially kidding, because if we can't, they are liabilities on the board.

If we can actually hide certain sizes of boys behind obscuring terrain mid board, Boys might be okay. It makes me wonder, actually, that 30 man squads *won't* be takable. This edition was already killy enough, and exposed units are even more dead in 9th. Less stuff on the board, sure, but if it sees you, it's getting max shots.

If obscuring terrain is common enough mid board close to objectives, though, maybe it's fine.

tulun wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Honestly, 30 boyz is physicaly the biggest unit in w40k? 30x32mm bases of green badasses. How can we complain, we can' t hide them?

Although I know you're partially kidding, because if we can't, they are liabilities on the board.

If we can actually hide certain sizes of boys behind obscuring terrain mid board, Boys might be okay. It makes me wonder, actually, that 30 man squads *won't* be takable. This edition was already killy enough, and exposed units are even more dead in 9th. Less stuff on the board, sure, but if it sees you, it's getting max shots.

If obscuring terrain is common enough mid board close to objectives, though, maybe it's fine.

I think if boyz go up to 8 and no more than that, having one 30 man blob to da jump turn 1 might still be useful, depending on how they price Meganobz and nobz. More than one mob of boys... I don’t feel like we will want to. Blocking your opponents movements turn 1, or rushing an objective turn 1 with tons of s4 attacks must still have a use.
I have 30 nobz and 15 meganobz so I don’t really care as long as at least One of these options is viable for a turn 1 da jump. But as Tulun says 30*32mm bases is the biggest footprint in 40k. It must have a da jump use turn 1

Still waiting for transport rules...

tneva82 wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

tulun wrote:
So cover won’t be saving Orks. Still favours elite armies.

Sigh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/11/terrain-rules-and-line-of-sightgw-homepage-post-1/

I think 'obscuring' will help quite a bit on boards with a good amount of ruins on them (assuming the large ruins sit in the middle of the board).

Not sure what to make of the 'heavy cover' rule though. Is it supposed to simulate fighting in tight corridors/thick wooded areas?

Except if you even touch terrain area you are shot freely even if physically can't be seen.

'Models that are on or within this terrain feature can be targeted as normal'.

Why do you think 'as normal' means 'without line of sight?

 Jidmah wrote:
Still waiting for transport rules...

Wear a mask and stay 1m away from other users of said transport

One would assume "as normal" is referring to how we usually do it - can i physically see the model? Yes? I can shoot it. No? Cant shoot it.

If they got rid of that....theres going to be a LOT more heat surrounding cover than there was before. Because suddenly 18+ wound models can be targeted even if a 20" tall solid wall is in the way lol.

 Jidmah wrote:
Still waiting for transport rules...

Yeah, if they change it so you can disembark and charge after the transport moves (either at half the movement or some other penalty), we could see boyz survive in mech lists, not to mention normal nobz and trukks/battlewagons actually doing their job delivering cargo into the enemy.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Still waiting for transport rules...

Yeah, if they change it so you can disembark and charge after the transport moves (either at half the movement or some other penalty), we could see boyz survive in mech lists, not to mention normal nobz and trukks/battlewagons actually doing their job delivering cargo into the enemy.

Dare I say...

Nobz in a 'Naut!?

Madjob wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Still waiting for transport rules...

Yeah, if they change it so you can disembark and charge after the transport moves (either at half the movement or some other penalty), we could see boyz survive in mech lists, not to mention normal nobz and trukks/battlewagons actually doing their job delivering cargo into the enemy.

Dare I say...

Nobz in a 'Naut!?

Oddly, this 18+ wound rule might make some interesting problems for the Gork / Morkanaut. Gork might still live in the Tellyporta, but it'll be interesting to see how the mork is affected, because it might really struggle to get good line of sight, and it'll still be shootable over obscuring terrain.

Do you think open-topped transports will allow passengers to shoot normally while the transport is in melee — or will they still be limited to Pistols-only?

tulun wrote:
Oddly, this 18+ wound rule might make some interesting problems for the Gork / Morkanaut. Gork might still live in the Tellyporta, but it'll be interesting to see how the mork is affected, because it might really struggle to get good line of sight, and it'll still be shootable over obscuring terrain.

My morks job is to draw fire from buggies while providing them with a KFF. If they ignore it, it goes up to blow up a tank with shooting and smash whatever it manages to charge to bits.
It's actually one of the few distraction carnifexes in the game that works, I don't leave home without it anymore.

tneva82 wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

tulun wrote:
So cover won’t be saving Orks. Still favours elite armies.

Sigh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/11/terrain-rules-and-line-of-sightgw-homepage-post-1/

I think 'obscuring' will help quite a bit on boards with a good amount of ruins on them (assuming the large ruins sit in the middle of the board).

Not sure what to make of the 'heavy cover' rule though. Is it supposed to simulate fighting in tight corridors/thick wooded areas?

Except if you even touch terrain area you are shot freely even if physically can't be seen.

Ironic. Players in 8th made rule so you can"t be seen even if physically seen. Gw makes opposite.

And triumph i just got painted got nerfed. 18w so obscured pieces don't block los to it period. Gorkanaut ditto can be seen freely. In 8th having it hidden to atleast some enemies was standard


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

tulun wrote:


Honestly I love Mega Nobs, nobs, Killa Kans, and Deff Dreads in general, so this is all fine.

Me too. I'll start with Tin 'Eadz for sure Now, if only we could start with 6+ HS, 3-4 HQs and 18 CPs....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

And remember the kff change

The KFF seems massive on paper, and in 8th it probably could have been, but with very limited HQ choices that big mek has a lot of competition and other KFF sources still affect only shooting. We also don't know if the big mek with KFF will be cheap enough to be good with the new points hikes.

Since we have no faq yet and the kff has substantial changed including points. Im assuming the points are intended right now. So I don’t foresee a price hike on a book released 3 months before a new edition. Plus I’m assuming the new kff is going to be universal. These were to drastic of a change to just assume it’s all a misprint

It was written for 8th. Vlrtually verything in 9th will be going up. Base measure changes so only reason 9th ed price doesn't change would be if 8th ed was seriously overpriced

They literally flat out said it was designed to be used in 9th.. I di t know where you got it was written and designed for 8th.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
Oddly, this 18+ wound rule might make some interesting problems for the Gork / Morkanaut. Gork might still live in the Tellyporta, but it'll be interesting to see how the mork is affected, because it might really struggle to get good line of sight, and it'll still be shootable over obscuring terrain.

My morks job is to draw fire from buggies while providing them with a KFF. If they ignore it, it goes up to blow up a tank with shooting and smash whatever it manages to charge to bits.
It's actually one of the few distraction carnifexes in the game that works, I don't leave home without it anymore.

Me too, the morkanaut has never been a bad choice in lists that are heavy on wagons, trukks, buggies, planes and mek gunz. With PA we got a super cheap KFF that could have replaced the naut since it was super easy to have 6 HQs, but with the new style of listbuilding it may be be hard to field that big mek along with other necessary HQs, let alone more than one, so a not-too-expensive morkanaut will be very appreciated. I'd also like the megarmored big mek to get a reasonable points value because he can have a stratagem that makes him a warboss in stats and can take the killa klaw.

IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

For the Morkanaut we will have to see how much he will cost, and if he can get across terrain without too much trouble (because they said nothing about movement across terrain). If you need to protect stuff you send forward to grab midflield objectives, then perhaps the wazbomm will really be the best option. Also, let's hope the Wazbom doesn't cost too much in 9th...

It will be interesting to see if Ork players go back to shoota boyz with 'eavy armour as the standard troop choice if firing from transports gets buffed.

Whilst Snakebites typically prefer the traditional choppa, I could see a small 10 man unit of shoota boys with 'eavy armour and feel no pain being a nice way to lock down a terrain feature.

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

Dreads and kans have the same M value of a footslogging mek, naut has only 8''. You just need to be in 9'' range to give the invuln, and with the new table size even vehicles can easily be in range for a couple of turns if not more. Which is what really matters actually, 1-2 turns of soaking firepower. Units like gitz or bustas in trukks tipycally don't want to go too far and the big mek will not be left behind. After turn 2 some of those armored stuff are dead anyway, while other ones may have reached the front lines and cannot go further so having a highly mobile source of KFF is not that mandatory. Also, you're assuming the the opponent plays a gunline, and the ork player must rush everything as fast as possible, but he might has units that want to come forward as well. Dreads, kanz and even a wagon with a unit embarked don't have to go too far is your 6 mek gunz get threatened by a fast or deep striking enemy unit. A 9'' bubble for single units, especially those ones with large footprint, or small squadrons, actually is something reliable. It's terrible for covering boyz, which is something I never even considered in 8th.

Morkanaut and wazobom are both good, but also 500 points vs 110 (assuming 2 big meks with KFF) with 8th points values.

I'm not fearing to leave the meks behing, I'm more concerned about having to choose between them and other competitive HQs because we are now very limited on the HQs slots available if we want to keep CPs. And mechanized lists tipycally love CPs thanks to kustom jobs. Two big meks sound hard to field with the new detachment system, maybe even one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroem wrote:
It will be interesting to see if Ork players go back to shoota boyz with 'eavy armour as the standard troop choice if firing from transports gets buffed.

Whilst Snakebites typically prefer the traditional choppa, I could see a small 10 man unit of shoota boys with 'eavy armour and feel no pain being a nice way to lock down a terrain feature.

'ard boyz costs 2CP though, and it looks hard to justify for units of 30 dudes, let alone squads of 10.

And wasn't it just 5+ save? Junk. Even for 30 boyz. Trukk jmke and bw not much better

Everyone forgets the poor mekadread...

My main concern about the Mork is mostly just if it'll be able to get line of sight anymore. Right now, it can be targeted and potentially not able to shoot back because of obscuring terrain.

If they ignore it AND it can't shoot you, that's a problem.

Hopefully it will largely be spared points increases, as it was probably a bit high in 8th as is.

Edit: Maybe good positioning will largely just circumvent this anyway. Just a shame, as it's another binary breakpoint on wounds, with 18 being by far the worst. They really should tie it to a keyword.

the absolute only time ive ever used 'Ard Boyz was when i was doing a grot mobz list and outside kustom jobs, kleverest boss, or biggest boss there wasnt really much to use my CP on given gretchin cant use stratagems and like 70% of my list was gretchin (killakanz, grot tanks, grot mega tank, grots).
I had like 10cp lying around and nothing to really use it on so i said screw it and dumped 4cp to make both squads 'ard boyz and made sure they were near one of the Grot vehicles to Loot It when it died.

That literally only worked because the absolute GIANT ball of T5 distracted my opponent, so he completely ignored the boyz first couple turns. Two full 30man 4+ save boyz with a painboy around proved to be disturbingly difficult to remove lol.

Still not worth it as that was 6cp for...boyz...and they still didnt kill that well they just took significantly more to remove. But seeing as i had no use for the cp anyway....figured i might as well lol.

If 'Ard Boyz was a 4+ or only cost 1cp, it might be worth it.

Yea 'eavy armour used to grant a 4+ save in 3rd edition so it would be nice to have that back, a minor tweak would make it useful.
It would also be nice to have auto-hitting Zzap guns back as well

 Kroem wrote:
Yea 'eavy armour used to grant a 4+ save in 3rd edition so it would be nice to have that back, a minor tweak would make it useful.
It would also be nice to have auto-hitting Zzap guns back as well

The Relic zap gun we can now take on a BW from PA should make you happy then

I think 4th ed, perhaps even 5th, we could have ardboyz with a 4+ for 10 pts (instgead of 6 for reg boyz)

Sounds good overall for our planes.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/12/taking-flightgw-homepage-post-1/

Edit: Also, seems like strategic reserves is >9" still and ANY board edge, wholly within 6". If this is possible on turn 2 and beyond, screening your back and edges is even more important now. I'm not sure how much Orks will use this, but who knows, maybe this will be good for some outflanking units of Mega Nobs or something.

thank god they clarified Aircrafts are not falling back, they simply move despite enemies in range. So no more potential rule threading to keep it from falling back, and the new stratagem cant affect them either.

'Ard boyz has always been a 4+ except in 8th. Nobody cared before though because 4+ armor in past editions was stupid easy to remove, as a lot of high rate of fire guns had AP4 weapons. In fact i think there were more AP4 than there were AP5. Its why warriors sucked because it was simply way, way too easy to pierce their armor and splat them.
In 8th though, you need AP-3 to fully strip that armor. Unless its a specific shenanigan like a stratagem or half-range perk, i cant recall a single high rate of fire gun that has AP-3 right now. The closest is Hellblasters, but theyre not interested in boyz they want the nobz and vehicles. 4+ on 30 boyz would have been nice even at 2cp in 8th, but they reduced it to a stupid 5+ which is much less useful since a lot of weapons that are hitting them are ap-1 or -2.

Well, plus we have the KFF, why would we waste 2 CP when we can give a better version of the save much more cheaply?

If Ard boys was 1 CP, it might see some play, even at a 5+ save.

tulun wrote:
My main concern about the Mork is mostly just if it'll be able to get line of sight anymore. Right now, it can be targeted and potentially not able to shoot back because of obscuring terrain.

If they ignore it AND it can't shoot you, that's a problem.

Hopefully it will largely be spared points increases, as it was probably a bit high in 8th as is.

Edit: Maybe good positioning will largely just circumvent this anyway. Just a shame, as it's another binary breakpoint on wounds, with 18 being by far the worst. They really should tie it to a keyword.

Size stat would be even better. You could do so much with it making terrain work without arquments and simple. And it's not like gw doesn't know concept as gw has games with that.

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

Dreads and kans have the same M value of a footslogging mek, naut has only 8''. You just need to be in 9'' range to give the invuln, and with the new table size even vehicles can easily be in range for a couple of turns if not more. Which is what really matters actually,

You need to be wholly within 9" though, so if much as a toe sticks out, you don't get the save.

Also, you're assuming the the opponent plays a gunline, and the ork player must rush everything as fast as possible, but he might has units that want to come forward as well. Dreads,

In my experience I need to at least go forward at full speed T1 no matter what my opponent is playing to get all those 24" weapons in range of valuable targets.

Morkanaut and wazobom are both good, but also 500 points vs 110 (assuming 2 big meks with KFF) with 8th points values.

I've experimented *a lot* with these units and it's not that simple. The 110 spend on big mek is 110 lost as soon as your vehicles move out of their bubble, as they contribute nothing to the game anymore. I had roughly a dozen games where this happened. Naut and wazbomm, on the other hand, still add a lot of value even if they wouldn't have the KFF, as both their shooting and durability is pretty impressive.