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The fluff is absolutely terrible, and serves to undermine the previously established fluff of the emperor, the Horus heresy and the space marine chapters in general.

The advancement of technology flies in the face of what makes 40k great. It’s the dark age of technology 40,000 years in the future. There is no place for advancement and enlightenment. There is only war, religion and ignorance. That’s the fething setting for god sake. Do I need to school GW on their own god damn lore?

They aren’t ornate enough. There’s not enough skulls, bling, purity seals etc. So aesthetically they’re boring.

Apart from inceressors the rest of the range looks bad. And intercessors only look good because they have proper dimensions.

No close combat to speak of, so it’s boring as gak.

They may have the proper space marine stats, but they completely lack options and customization.

If they just updated the old marine line with better proportions then that’s fine. But I hate everything they are and everything they represent.

I regularly use my RTB01 beakies with my "current" astartes & Primaris. Although some may say they look terrible when fielded together but no more so than any recent GW release(1ksons & DGvs old sculpt).


I can see them having 3 different Time periods; Great Crusade to Scouring, Scouring to Dark millennium, Dark Millennium to .....

Narratively I think it opens up a ton of story development while not necessarily killing minimarines.
if at some point in the future they squat originalmarines, nothing will prevent you from using them. Big deal if they're not allowed in tournaments(most people I know could give zwei scheiss about competitive)

I think an important part of the primaris fluff people seem to forget or ignore is that they also break the ceiling of marine numbers and recruitment time. It was always stated that there were not enough marines, and a chapter of marines was also not enough to actually be able to do what it's said they can do. Finally, combined with the small numbers in chapters and overall, it was also a gripe that it took so long to produce marines, meaning a particularly devastating campaign losses wise, and with how difficult it is to find the right recruits and make them survive the process to become marines, it could take a chapter potentially a century or longer to replace the numbers lost such as half a chapter or more.

All of those problems I have stated above are no longer issues, there's more primaris, chapters are now bigger, there are more chapters and they are quicker to produce (or so I believe they are).

Yeah it's not ideal but it does solve that long standing issue.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I think an important part of the primaris fluff people seem to forget or ignore is that they also break the ceiling of marine numbers and recruitment time. It was always stated that there were not enough marines, and a chapter of marines was also not enough to actually be able to do what it's said they can do. Finally, combined with the small numbers in chapters and overall, it was also a gripe that it took so long to produce marines, meaning a particularly devastating campaign losses wise, and with how difficult it is to find the right recruits and make them survive the process to become marines, it could take a chapter potentially a century or longer to replace the numbers lost such as half a chapter or more.

All of those problems I have stated above are no longer issues, there's more primaris, chapters are now bigger, there are more chapters and they are quicker to produce (or so I believe they are).

Yeah it's not ideal but it does solve that long standing issue.

Except that it completely kills what 40k was about. The fact that the odds were grim and each loss irreplaceable were integral part of the tone of the setting.

 skchsan wrote:

A primaris is taller than termies and almost the height of dreadnoughts. Gravis is larger than centurions and as tall as a dreadnought. Bad scale change.

This is a joke right? Or a missed point?

I own all of those models.
The only thing there that's correct is that a Primaris marine is taller than a Terminator.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I think an important part of the primaris fluff people seem to forget or ignore is that they also break the ceiling of marine numbers and recruitment time. It was always stated that there were not enough marines, and a chapter of marines was also not enough to actually be able to do what it's said they can do. Finally, combined with the small numbers in chapters and overall, it was also a gripe that it took so long to produce marines, meaning a particularly devastating campaign losses wise, and with how difficult it is to find the right recruits and make them survive the process to become marines, it could take a chapter potentially a century or longer to replace the numbers lost such as half a chapter or more.

All of those problems I have stated above are no longer issues, there's more primaris, chapters are now bigger, there are more chapters and they are quicker to produce (or so I believe they are).

Yeah it's not ideal but it does solve that long standing issue.

Except that it completely kills what 40k was about. The fact that the odds were grim and each loss irreplaceable were integral part of the tone of the setting.

I get that, but it would still be the same if the 10m space marines.... It still wouldn't feel like enough and each loss would still be felt hugely.

Davor wrote:
The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

So only thing I can think of is because people don't like the fluff or how it was introduced. So ignore it and still use them as normal space marines, it's not that big of a deal. Space marines have changed over the years this is just a new change.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I am not seeing over the new hate/dislike for nu-marines.

Davor

Look at your army.
Look at those models you like.
Now think how you would feel if they never made any of them again and the existing ones were slowly phased out of the game while GW expects you to buy everything again but a little different and with less (no) options.

If that doesn't make you understand people's problem with Primaris Marines then I don't know how to help you.

 Ordana wrote:
Look at your army.
Look at those models you like.
Now think how you would feel if they never made any of them again and the existing ones were slowly phased out of the game while GW expects you to buy everything again but a little different and with less (no) options.

If that doesn't make you understand people's problem with Primaris Marines then I don't know how to help you.

By that logic we should all still be playing with the Rogue Trader beakies and GW should have never updated them. Same with the Necrons, same with the Dark Eldar.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Look at your army.
Look at those models you like.
Now think how you would feel if they never made any of them again and the existing ones were slowly phased out of the game while GW expects you to buy everything again but a little different and with less (no) options.

If that doesn't make you understand people's problem with Primaris Marines then I don't know how to help you.

By that logic we should all still be playing with the Rogue Trader beakies and GW should have never updated them. Same with the Necrons, same with the Dark Eldar.

But neither of those are different unit types. People keep bringing this false equivalency up "Nuh uh! You had no problem with the Plague Marines!" Well, no gak Sherlock- they're just an upscaled version of an existing unit type- something Intercessors are not, they've bullied their way in and sooner or later these will be the meat and potatoes unit of SM armies, not the, now obsolete Tacticals.

Don't primaris or wierd shaped DG models exist, so that other companies can't easily produce parts for GW made models?

 Grimtuff wrote:

But neither of those are different unit types. People keep bringing this false equivalency up "Nuh uh! You had no problem with the Plague Marines!" Well, no gak Sherlock- they're just an upscaled version of an existing unit type- something Intercessors are not, they've bullied their way in and sooner or later these will be the meat and potatoes unit of SM armies, not the, now obsolete Tacticals.

So what? If they really remove rule support for old marines you can use your tacticals as intercessors etc. And sure, not all loadouts can be use that way, but not all 2E marine loadouts could be used in 3E either. And of course, there probably will be some legacy rules for minimarines for foreseeable future, so you don't even need to do that.

But the thing is, most people will upgrade, and they would just the same if this was just an aesthetic update. You don't see first gen DE around, you don't see old school metal necrons, 2E monopose plastic marines, let alone RT beakies. People will get the new better looking models, and old ones get shelved. This is nothing new, it just has been a long time since this last happened to the marines.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Look at your army.
Look at those models you like.
Now think how you would feel if they never made any of them again and the existing ones were slowly phased out of the game while GW expects you to buy everything again but a little different and with less (no) options.

If that doesn't make you understand people's problem with Primaris Marines then I don't know how to help you.

By that logic we should all still be playing with the Rogue Trader beakies and GW should have never updated them. Same with the Necrons, same with the Dark Eldar.

Almost all of those models are still useable. Fielding an army of entirely 1st edition models is completely legal, squad numbers and all. I see old Dark Eldar models at our club with some regularity.

The fear comes from the idea that the army that took many hundreds of dollars, hundreds of hours, that has a thousand hours of table time will be forcefully retired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And

Primaris Marines come off as fanboy marines.

I have two armies - tau and wolves.

Lots of guys here says "but every line will have an update sooner or later". Well, yes, all my tau units was updates - from old broadsides to humble firewarrion. New models, cooler, detailed, awesone. I love it. Buuuut - I still can use my older model. All units I spend my money for, time and love are still usable. New crisis and broadside suits are much bigger (and have a different base, but this problem is fixable), but they are not a shelf plastic.

Now my wolfs have an "update" too, but not the one I want. So, I have an army that I collected and painted for years, and now it is somehow "ok" to throw it off and begin again from the scratch? Wow, hell no. Normal marines couldn't be played as primaris, they have different loadouts. Every 5 gray hunted has special weapon and power axe, but intercessors are bolter only. So should I break my minis? And what about jump pack guys or terminators? Bikers, cavalry, small dreds? All those minis become squatted.

I love how the primaris looks, but instead of the update they become the replacement, and I don't want to spend hundred of hours on the new army, I haven't that much free time anymore.

Silver144 wrote:
I have two armies - tau and wolves.

Lots of guys here says "but every line will have an update sooner or later". Well, yes, all my tau units was updates - from old broadsides to humble firewarrion. New models, cooler, detailed, awesone. I love it. Buuuut - I still can use my older model. All units I spend my money for, time and love are still usable. New crisis and broadside suits are much bigger (and have a different base, but this problem is fixable), but they are not a shelf plastic.

Now my wolfs have an "update" too, but not the one I want. So, I have an army that I collected and painted for years, and now it is somehow "ok" to throw it off and begin again from the scratch? Wow, hell no. Normal marines couldn't be played as primaris, they have different loadouts. Every 5 gray hunted has special weapon and power axe, but intercessors are bolter only. So should I break my minis? And what about jump pack guys or terminators? Bikers, cavalry, small dreds? All those minis become squatted.

I love how the primaris looks, but instead of the update they become the replacement, and I don't want to spend hundred of hours on the new army, I haven't that much free time anymore.

Then continue to play as they are. If you want the new shiny then you need to update. This isn't the first time GW have done something like this. Hell they invalidated several entire factions in Fantasy with the AOS reboot.

Everyone just needs to accept that over the next few years there will be a slow trickle of updated marines as they reboot the entire model line.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
I have two armies - tau and wolves.

Lots of guys here says "but every line will have an update sooner or later". Well, yes, all my tau units was updates - from old broadsides to humble firewarrion. New models, cooler, detailed, awesone. I love it. Buuuut - I still can use my older model. All units I spend my money for, time and love are still usable. New crisis and broadside suits are much bigger (and have a different base, but this problem is fixable), but they are not a shelf plastic.

Now my wolfs have an "update" too, but not the one I want. So, I have an army that I collected and painted for years, and now it is somehow "ok" to throw it off and begin again from the scratch? Wow, hell no. Normal marines couldn't be played as primaris, they have different loadouts. Every 5 gray hunted has special weapon and power axe, but intercessors are bolter only. So should I break my minis? And what about jump pack guys or terminators? Bikers, cavalry, small dreds? All those minis become squatted.

I love how the primaris looks, but instead of the update they become the replacement, and I don't want to spend hundred of hours on the new army, I haven't that much free time anymore.

Then continue to play as they are. If you want the new shiny then you need to update. This isn't the first time GW have done something like this. Hell they invalidated several entire factions in Fantasy with the AOS reboot.

Everyone just needs to accept that over the next few years there will be a slow trickle of updated marines as they reboot the entire model line.

You know, marine rules aren't great already and they will become worse. GW smart enouth to not squat them right at the launch, instead they will just make primaris better rulewise so you will have to buy them to play a game. And this is NOT ok, you couldn't convuce me in that.

And from my personal experience all this "but why can't you just play with models even if their rules a bad?" I heard only from folks who actually do not play games. They just paint and showing in the club once in month or two, losing hard and vanish again. Everyone who actually play the game uses more or less workable roster, just because you can see the weak units, and you do not want to play weak units. Terminators and tacticals are ok only if you play the game via youtube.

Karol wrote:
Don't primaris or wierd shaped DG models exist, so that other companies can't easily produce parts for GW made models?

Once those units have any kind of options it's only a matter of time before someone makes compatible parts.

 Crimson wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Too big and no customization, as my dudes are SW with lots of different bare heads with no helmets.

My Primaris are dudes with a lot of different bare head. Also some different helmets, as old helmets fit. I agree that the basic kit lacks customisation, but personalising your Primaris with bitsbox parts is pretty damn easy.

Taken from where? Older marines has small heads compared to primaris ones.

 Blackie wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Too big and no customization, as my dudes are SW with lots of different bare heads with no helmets.

My Primaris are dudes with a lot of different bare head. Also some different helmets, as old helmets fit. I agree that the basic kit lacks customisation, but personalising your Primaris with bitsbox parts is pretty damn easy.

Taken from where? Older marines has small heads compared to primaris ones.

No they don't. They're exactly the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Silver144 wrote:
I have two armies - tau and wolves.

Lots of guys here says "but every line will have an update sooner or later". Well, yes, all my tau units was updates - from old broadsides to humble firewarrion. New models, cooler, detailed, awesone. I love it. Buuuut - I still can use my older model. All units I spend my money for, time and love are still usable. New crisis and broadside suits are much bigger (and have a different base, but this problem is fixable), but they are not a shelf plastic.

I guess this is the disconnect. I would update just the same even if it was just an aesthetic update; the old models would be just as unusable to me. I wouldn't use the RT beakies either, I wouldn't use the old broadsides, I most definitely wouldn't use the old ugly Dark Eldar.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Look at your army.
Look at those models you like.
Now think how you would feel if they never made any of them again and the existing ones were slowly phased out of the game while GW expects you to buy everything again but a little different and with less (no) options.

If that doesn't make you understand people's problem with Primaris Marines then I don't know how to help you.

By that logic we should all still be playing with the Rogue Trader beakies and GW should have never updated them. Same with the Necrons, same with the Dark Eldar.

No because the example you listed were the same units with just a more modern look. Primaris are a complete different army that is going to invalidate the older one.

Beakies are perfectly fine as tacticals, so are the ancient dark eldar kabalites, wyches, hellions, scourges, talos, raiders, etc...

A few units that are phased out in order to get new ones may be fine, like the new ork vehicles that replaced the old buggies, but squatting an entire army with something completely new is a different matter. I have a large SW collection and I adore it, no way I'm going to re-build another SW army with all new models, even if the new models look gorgeous. Eventually I'll just use the models as proxies or keep them only as a collection without bringing them to the game.

 NurglesR0T wrote:


Then continue to play as they are. If you want the new shiny then you need to update. This isn't the first time GW have done something like this. Hell they invalidated several entire factions in Fantasy with the AOS reboot.

Everyone just needs to accept that over the next few years there will be a slow trickle of updated marines as they reboot the entire model line.

What about people who bought their armies in 8th ed, and their armies do not work? to them the armies they have are new and shiny.

 Blackie wrote:

Beakies are perfectly fine as tacticals, so are the ancient dark eldar kabalites, wyches, hellions, scourges, talos, raiders, etc...

They aren't perfectly fine, they're old and ugly.

A few units that are phased out in order to get new ones may be fine, like the new ork vehicles that replaced the old buggies, but squatting an entire army with something completely new is a different matter.

But that is exactly the same thing than with the Primaris. Updated models which are kinda the same thing than the old one, but not exactly and thus get a new datasheet.

 Crimson wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Beakies are perfectly fine as tacticals, so are the ancient dark eldar kabalites, wyches, hellions, scourges, talos, raiders, etc...

They aren't perfectly fine, they're old and ugly.

A few units that are phased out in order to get new ones may be fine, like the new ork vehicles that replaced the old buggies, but squatting an entire army with something completely new is a different matter.

But that is exactly the same thing than with the Primaris. Updated models which are kinda the same thing than the old one, but not exactly and thus get a new datasheet.

You have no right to claim that someone shouldn't use his minis because you don't like their look. Want to rebuy and repaint whole army from the scratch? It's your right. The same as mine to be upsed for my army become invalidated, because I spend coutless hours on every marine and paint new army just because of GW greed? No thanks.

 Crimson wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Beakies are perfectly fine as tacticals, so are the ancient dark eldar kabalites, wyches, hellions, scourges, talos, raiders, etc...

They aren't perfectly fine, they're old and ugly.

That's just your personal opinion. I think primaris and deathguard are unbearable to watch.

 Crimson wrote:

A few units that are phased out in order to get new ones may be fine, like the new ork vehicles that replaced the old buggies, but squatting an entire army with something completely new is a different matter.

But that is exactly the same thing than with the Primaris. Updated models which are kinda the same thing than the old one, but not exactly and thus get a new datasheet.

Yeah, but that's just a few models that have been replaced in an army that continues to exist as it was before the new releases. The same thing would be if orks were completely squatted in favor of a full speed freaks army.

Silver144 wrote:


You have no right to claim that someone shouldn't use his minis because you don't like their look. Want to rebuy and repaint whole army from the scratch? It's your right. The same as mine to be upsed for my army become invalidated, because I spend coutless hours on every marine and paint new army just because of GW greed? No thanks.

No one is stopping you from using your old models. They will have legacy rule support for foreseeable future, and even if they at some point don't you can use most of the as counts as Primaris.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

Yeah, but that's just a few models that have been replaced in an army that continues to exist as it was before the new releases. The same thing would be if orks were completely squatted in favor of a full speed freaks army.

But they didn't squat the marines. They introduce some new units and perhaps some old ones will vanish over time; just like with the orks.

The Primaris Marines mark a jump in history, away from dark age to renaissance.
This could mean that we will more advanced technology for Mankind in the future.

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:


You have no right to claim that someone shouldn't use his minis because you don't like their look. Want to rebuy and repaint whole army from the scratch? It's your right. The same as mine to be upsed for my army become invalidated, because I spend coutless hours on every marine and paint new army just because of GW greed? No thanks.

No one is stopping you from using your old models. They will have legacy rule support for foreseeable future, and even if they at some point don't you can use most of the as counts as Primaris.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

Yeah, but that's just a few models that have been replaced in an army that continues to exist as it was before the new releases. The same thing would be if orks were completely squatted in favor of a full speed freaks army.

But they didn't squat the marines. They introduce some new units and perhaps some old ones will vanish over time; just like with the orks.

According to your posts I assume that you are not very familiar with space marine range, I'll help you here. The only mini you could proxy as a "primaris" is a bolterguy. But intercessor, the primaris bolterguys, do not have special weapons and/or heavy weapons, combi weapon/power weapon sergeant. So even your regular tactical squads cannot be used as intercessors. And how do you plan to use terminators, as agressors? Or jump pack dudes, or non-gravi bikes? All current marine range is unusable as a primaris force. It is completly different army. Using current marine as primaris is the same as use them as eldar or necron force. Totally wrong.

And no, thanks, I do not want "legacy" rules, I want my army to be viable as any other on tabletop. I spend a lot for my army and want my right to play it.

Silver144 wrote:

According to your posts I assume that you are not very familiar with space marine range, I'll help you here. The only mini you could proxy as a "primaris" is a bolterguy. But intercessor, the primaris bolterguys, do not have special weapons and/or heavy weapons, combi weapon/power weapon sergeant. So even your regular tactical squads cannot be used as intercessors. And how do you plan to use terminators, as agressors? Or jump pack dudes, or non-gravi bikes? All current marine range is unusable as a primaris force. It is completly different army. Using current marine as primaris is the same as use them as eldar or necron force. Totally wrong.

And no, thanks, I do not want "legacy" rules, I want my army to be viable as any other on tabletop. I spend a lot for my army and want my right to play it.

If there will be a point when the rule support for minimarines is really cancelled, then the Primaris range has been vastly expanded, and there will be Primaris analogues for most old units.

Please stop calling them "mini marines". All you're trying to do is get a rise out of people and it's not productive to discussion.

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

According to your posts I assume that you are not very familiar with space marine range, I'll help you here. The only mini you could proxy as a "primaris" is a bolterguy. But intercessor, the primaris bolterguys, do not have special weapons and/or heavy weapons, combi weapon/power weapon sergeant. So even your regular tactical squads cannot be used as intercessors. And how do you plan to use terminators, as agressors? Or jump pack dudes, or non-gravi bikes? All current marine range is unusable as a primaris force. It is completly different army. Using current marine as primaris is the same as use them as eldar or necron force. Totally wrong.

And no, thanks, I do not want "legacy" rules, I want my army to be viable as any other on tabletop. I spend a lot for my army and want my right to play it.

If there will be a point when the rule support for minimarines is really cancelled, then the Primaris range has been vastly expanded, and there will be Primaris analogues for most old units.

They will not rerelease old minis in highter scale. There will be gravibikes instead if regular bikes, agressors instead of terminators, same role, different model and weapon loadout. GW will not remove current marine from the game, they will just make their rules much worse than primaris, to the point that taking them will be handicaping. So it's take primarise or struggle in every game.

Karol wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:


Then continue to play as they are. If you want the new shiny then you need to update. This isn't the first time GW have done something like this. Hell they invalidated several entire factions in Fantasy with the AOS reboot.

Everyone just needs to accept that over the next few years there will be a slow trickle of updated marines as they reboot the entire model line.

What about people who bought their armies in 8th ed, and their armies do not work? to them the armies they have are new and shiny.

Most new people in 8th will be starting with Primaris. Sure, there will be plenty buying older space marine kits because they are in the latest codex, but my point is that over time they will be replaced.