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The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

So only thing I can think of is because people don't like the fluff or how it was introduced. So ignore it and still use them as normal space marines, it's not that big of a deal. Space marines have changed over the years this is just a new change.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I am not seeing over the new hate/dislike for nu-marines.

Davor

I think you have to have gone through to process of having your own army brushed to the wayside to get what this is about. Don't know if you have or not - I haven't personally.

But the brain ache cause by the incongruous scale really does make it hard to field mixed armies imo.

Most Space Marine player haven't gone through this transition before, the marines have been pretty much unchanged since third edition. I remember discarding bunch of second edition models when the multipart marines arrived with 3rd edition and of course people had discarded full rogue trader marine armies before that. So to me is no different.

As history showed people were killing each other in real wars for stuff less important then likes or dislikes of a content of one or multiple books. So people just being irked by the "new" fluff seem to be acting natural, rather then odd.

The models themself seem fine, but I understand that with GW history updating WFB, some people worry that what is now shown as an addition of new units, is going to end with their armies being removed. And no one likes to here they just bought an army that will remain legal for maybe a year or two, and will stay good for even less.

If they were just a cosmetic change i'd be fine with them, something GW has done before with many factions. What I'm not fine with is that there is essentially no over lap between existing marine units and vehicles and the new primaris stuff. The models are great but it's such blatant and hamfisted money grab by GW to invalidate their best selling line to force try to and force the new marines down peoples throats that has me with no interest of ever buying any primaris models.

That along side the garbage retconned way they were introduced and the fact that the game to be healthy didn't need more marine stuff. Go give Chaos and Xenos some love.

I'll put it this way, my armies have been pretty clearly shoved to the wayside in favour of rushed out marines that aren't that interesting even if you look past the bad writing. That's the good treatment considering my armies are still playable rather than being cut like the last two times.

So while my 'hate' is more directed at GW it's hard to not have some spillover on their latest favourites.

Rescaling 2nd ed termies and tacs by 10~15% was ok.

Providing a 50~60 rescaled models and call them "not repacing old models" while having clear intent to do so is not so fine.

A primaris is taller than termies and almost the height of dreadnoughts. Gravis is larger than centurions and as tall as a dreadnought. Bad scale change.

For me it's the terrible lore and crap rules that means I won't buy them.

Funny thing is, GW did the exact same thing with Plague Marines at the same time, just without any fluff explanation - and nobody seems to care. If you put a new Plague Marine next to an old one the difference in size and design is even bigger than between a Primaris and an old Marine. However, you can still switch between both or even mix them, as they only got additional equipment.

I'd say if they had introduced Primaris without any fluff explanation or just declaring it as a new armor mark AND making them compatible with old marines (Allowing for the same exquipment and use of transports) nobody would be upset aside from the people who are not playing Space Marines and always roll their eyes about yet another bunch of unnecessary Space Marines year after year.

I love the rules of Primaris, that's what the rules should be for normal marines... except no customization. That's the only thing keeping me from l liking new marines (and their terrible lore, but that's what headcanon is for)

Davor wrote:
The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

So only thing I can think of is because people don't like the fluff or how it was introduced. So ignore it and still use them as normal space marines, it's not that big of a deal. Space marines have changed over the years this is just a new change.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I am not seeing over the new hate/dislike for nu-marines.

Davor

I think it's pretty much just the background.

Unfortunately, you can't just ignore the game's background. This game is built on its background, GW's entire existing is built on their fictional worlds, nobody is going to play any of their games for the quality of their rules.

SM's also haven't changed all *that* much over the years once they settled into 2E back in the early/mid 90's, they've had lots of bad writing heaped on top but not much in the way of change, while only the tiniest fraction of the current playerbase has ever read the original RT rulebook much less ever played it, and an overwhelmingly vast majority probably wasn't even alive when it came out, the same is probably true for 2E as well.

Been a Chaos and Ork player for the last... 12 years or so. Picked up the Primaris combat squad set for a Killteam. Assembled the models. Drank the Cawl-aid, and now I'm a blue blooded Loyalist to the Primarch Guilliman and the Emperor!

Primaris look better in person, and one you set a Lieutenant down next to your mini marine Chapter Master, you see why you just can't go back to old marines.

I love the rules of Primaris, that's what the rules should be for normal marines... except no customization. That's the only thing keeping me from l liking new marines (and their terrible lore, but that's what headcanon is for)

I loathe them because they were completely unnecessary. Everyone harps on about SM being "mini marines" and other such derogatory gak, but SM are not out of scale. You know what was? Normal humans. The Cadians were the problem. A normal human should be the baseline for your scale, not a 7ft tall metahuman.

Look at literally any other mini line (or even FW) and see how their normal bog standard humans fit next to SMs. But no, Gw had to hamfist them in with every other piece of rubbish that came along with them like Cawl and Girlyman.

A lot of people feel that GW will now stop producing "normal" Space Marines. Some of those people feel, rightly or wrongly, that this will mean they can't use their "regular" Space Marine Army on the tabletop anymore. As someone who has run 1st Ed Space Marines and Terminators on the tabletop within the last year, I disagree with this sentiment; I understand it and can sympathize, but I still disagree.

Arcanis161 wrote:
A lot of people feel that GW will now stop producing "normal" Space Marines. Some of those people feel, rightly or wrongly, that this will mean they can't use their "regular" Space Marine Army on the tabletop anymore. As someone who has run 1st Ed Space Marines and Terminators on the tabletop within the last year, I disagree with this sentiment; I understand it and can sympathize, but I still disagree.

That particular tract is not due to the models, but the datasheets. GW has their asinine "no model no rules" policy remember. What will happen to the rules for tactical squads fro example if their models got he way of the Dodo?

 Grimtuff wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
A lot of people feel that GW will now stop producing "normal" Space Marines. Some of those people feel, rightly or wrongly, that this will mean they can't use their "regular" Space Marine Army on the tabletop anymore. As someone who has run 1st Ed Space Marines and Terminators on the tabletop within the last year, I disagree with this sentiment; I understand it and can sympathize, but I still disagree.

That particular tract is not due to the models, but the datasheets. GW has their asinine "no model no rules" policy remember. What will happen to the rules for tactical squads fro example if their models got he way of the Dodo?

Meh, I guess I just see things differently. I tend to look at the use of the models themselves rather than their original intended rules. I'm pretty sure they're going to make equivalent units for each special/heavy weapon and some kind of Terminator equivalent. I don't see why someone couldn't run some Tac Marines with Bolters as Intercessors, old Terminators as whatever the new Terminators are, etc. Sure, there's things like aesthetics, height, and the like, but at that point I feel it becomes personal preference.

I find it funny how GW transfers its ideas from Fantasy to 40K. When fantasy first came out, the large, heavly armored, extaodinarly elite Chaos Warriors were very popular. They spawned Space Marine in the ancestor of 40K. Then Space Marine became even more popular than the knights and Chaos Warriors that inspired them in the first place. When Fantasy collapsed and was re-branded as Age of Sigmar, Space Marines inspired the Sormcast who were basically super-magic Space Marine. They, of course, were very popular, more so then any Fantasy model before. They in turn inspired the idea of making Space Marine larger and better to increase their popularity. This gave us the Primaris Marines.

Davor wrote:
The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

So only thing I can think of is because people don't like the fluff or how it was introduced. So ignore it and still use them as normal space marines, it's not that big of a deal. Space marines have changed over the years this is just a new change.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I am not seeing over the new hate/dislike for nu-marines.

Davor

For me the "hate" is only because I don't like how they look. Too big and no customization, as my dudes are SW with lots of different bare heads with no helmets. I'm also disappointed that SM get lots of new releases and other armies don't.

Eventually, when standard SM will be phased out I'll play my normal sized dudes as primaris if necessary. No way I'm going to buy these new models.

I don't care about the fluff at all.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Davor wrote:
The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

So only thing I can think of is because people don't like the fluff or how it was introduced. So ignore it and still use them as normal space marines, it's not that big of a deal. Space marines have changed over the years this is just a new change.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I am not seeing over the new hate/dislike for nu-marines.

Davor

I think it's pretty much just the background.

Unfortunately, you can't just ignore the game's background. This game is built on its background, GW's entire existing is built on their fictional worlds, nobody is going to play any of their games for the quality of their rules.

Most games have zip to do with the game's background. Grey marines fighting something that's most likely other grey marines on a 6x4 piece of planet nowhere for nothing at all.

Its simply a matter of worrying that the stuff they spent money on will be replaced and un-usable at some point, thus requiring more money for the new stuff.

I like both and have no problem fielding them side by side. I'm not terribly happy about the prospect of most my marine army getting invalidated, though. That's my only hang up about the Primaris Marines.

Voss wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Davor wrote:
The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

So only thing I can think of is because people don't like the fluff or how it was introduced. So ignore it and still use them as normal space marines, it's not that big of a deal. Space marines have changed over the years this is just a new change.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I am not seeing over the new hate/dislike for nu-marines.

Davor

I think it's pretty much just the background.

Unfortunately, you can't just ignore the game's background. This game is built on its background, GW's entire existing is built on their fictional worlds, nobody is going to play any of their games for the quality of their rules.

Most games have zip to do with the game's background. Grey marines fighting something that's most likely other grey marines on a 6x4 piece of planet nowhere for nothing at all.

Its simply a matter of worrying that the stuff they spent money on will be replaced and un-usable at some point, thus requiring more money for the new stuff.

I disagree, forging a narrative through games is one of the most important parts (to me).

You can figure out anything with the backround if you try hard enough!

Arcanis161 wrote:

Meh, I guess I just see things differently. I tend to look at the use of the models themselves rather than their original intended rules. I'm pretty sure they're going to make equivalent units for each special/heavy weapon and some kind of Terminator equivalent. I don't see why someone couldn't run some Tac Marines with Bolters as Intercessors, old Terminators as whatever the new Terminators are, etc. Sure, there's things like aesthetics, height, and the like, but at that point I feel it becomes personal preference.

Yeah. The stupid fluff aside, I really don't see this being different than previous model updates. Because I want my models to look as good as they can, I would have felt just as compelled to ditch my old marines and upgrade if Intercessors had been just new Tactical models. And rules and loadouts change with editions. This is annoying, but it is nothing new. With the 3rd edition, along with the new marine models, many old marine loadouts became illegal. So I was then in the exact same situation than I was at the dawn of 8th edition: my old marines looked bad next to the new ones, and some of them had weapon choices that were not supported by the new rules (It is actually easier with 8th, as mini marines still have rules, so people who want to use their models as they are, still can.)

Voss wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Davor wrote:
The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

So only thing I can think of is because people don't like the fluff or how it was introduced. So ignore it and still use them as normal space marines, it's not that big of a deal. Space marines have changed over the years this is just a new change.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I am not seeing over the new hate/dislike for nu-marines.

Davor

I think it's pretty much just the background.

Unfortunately, you can't just ignore the game's background. This game is built on its background, GW's entire existing is built on their fictional worlds, nobody is going to play any of their games for the quality of their rules.

Most games have zip to do with the game's background. Grey marines fighting something that's most likely other grey marines on a 6x4 piece of planet nowhere for nothing at all.

Its simply a matter of worrying that the stuff they spent money on will be replaced and un-usable at some point, thus requiring more money for the new stuff.

Sure, but that's simply the nature of tabletop miniatures game of any stripe. There are other games with tighter rulesets, better mechanics, more balanced factions, etc. What drives interest in 40k and GW above those alternatives however is the background universe and imagery.

Davor wrote:
The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

No we can't. They are about the size of custodians. To be space marines they would need to be head shorter. Custodians are to space marines what space marines are to normal humans.

They might be true scale for primaris marines but they are too tall to be standard space marines.

 Blackie wrote:
Too big and no customization, as my dudes are SW with lots of different bare heads with no helmets.

My Primaris are dudes with a lot of different bare head. Also some different helmets, as old helmets fit. I agree that the basic kit lacks customisation, but personalising your Primaris with bitsbox parts is pretty damn easy.

 Crimson wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Too big and no customization, as my dudes are SW with lots of different bare heads with no helmets.

My Primaris are dudes with a lot of different bare head. Also some different helmets, as old helmets fit. I agree that the basic kit lacks customisation, but personalising your Primaris with bitsbox parts is pretty damn easy.

This is one of my issues with them. Veteran players have a ton bitz sitting around to do that. Newer players I've seen starting primaris though end up essentially with mirror match mini's. No new player is going to buy older kits to make their models more customized. Look at the level of difference between the grey hunter kit and the standard tactical kit and then compare to the half assed release GW did to make primaris wolfy.

For me it’s more the there was a tremendous missed opportunity:
Truescale marines have been a conversion target for several years now, but more importantly there has been grumbling about Marine statlines for quite a while. Launching a new edition with substantial departures from the previous decade of 40K was the PERFECT opportunity to revamp the space marine line, with an updated statline and new models to reflect the fluff. They could continue to support the old models, but provide an option for new and existing players to refresh their armies (or not) without adding further bloat to the most bloated army in the game. In my ideal world, they would start with the marines then gradually update the entire line to include vehicles, characters, etc.
I also don’t like the Primaris backstory, but GW blew a once in a decade chance to bring the fluff to the tabletop.

Davor wrote:
The Nu-marines or Primaris marines, who do lots of people not like them? Is it because of the fluff? How they were introduced? From my understanding the space marine miniatures have changed a few times now. So why introducing the space marines people don't like? Can't we just say they are normal space marines in new armour like before? Why the hate or people being upset? Look at an old-marine now and it's totally different from Rouge Trader and 40K second edition. Thing is they are still the same space marines.

So only thing I can think of is because people don't like the fluff or how it was introduced. So ignore it and still use them as normal space marines, it's not that big of a deal. Space marines have changed over the years this is just a new change.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I am not seeing over the new hate/dislike for nu-marines.

Davor

Model-wise, not a big deal.
Intercessors have a good design, a bit lanky perhaps. I think the legs should have been a tiny, tiny bit shorter. But is ok. I just realized it working on 5 of them for a non-AL KT.
Aggressors are nice, I like the different concept of the gravis compared to the termy armor.
Inceptors are perhaps too "modern", almost Star-Craft like, but not bad at all.
Reivers are good but the legs ruin everything. If they had an high shirt collar they would look like perfect stereotypical douches. Nothing that cannot be fixed.
The size of all Primaris in general is probably more appropriate to what the marines became since a long, long time.

Fluff wise? They make no sense, they make the Emperor Himself less special. Their fluff is borderline heresy. I strongly dislike them in this regard.
It's clear the short marines have to go, I find the denial in this regard hilarious. And no, I don't care about what GW said. Fool me once, etc. In case it will just take a long time.
And I am fine with that. We had routinely a change in model lines. not a big deal. The care that must be used in this regard (compared to, say, CSM) just shows how hyper-sensitive and entitled marine players are.
As someone said they should have just added new loyalist units and designed a brand new tactical squad as Intercessors with all the options, or at least some.
There is the possibility they (in a later future) will just split the weapon specialists in units (so not only plasma but flamers, melta etc), hopefully with nice design and not only a weapon change, to address the "master of nothing" problem tacticals have.

Ultimately, it would have been better to do what has been done with chaos (update the size but no fluff change), and give to ALL marines 2W from the start of 8th edition. In this way they could have adjusted the point cost of ALL the marine infantry (now is not possible because primaris exist along with the shorties) and make marines in general more usable again.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think it's pretty much just the background.

Unfortunately, you can't just ignore the game's background. This game is built on its background, GW's entire existing is built on their fictional worlds, nobody is going to play any of their games for the quality of their rules.

You most certainly can ignore the background. I've got several WHFB/40K armies I've built & played for no other reason than I simply liked the models (Ex. my all Dreadnought force here in 40k). And there's a few that once enough crap was written about them that I just stopped caring about their fluff (Necrons are a good example of this - all I need are the rules to put my models on the table.).

MY disinterest in the primaris stems from their lack of options. The models are fine (except for those fugly jump pack guys), but I like the options my tac, dev, etc squads have.
I'm sure at some point GW will rectify this.
As for me replacing my old models? No. Not happening.