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Personally, I like them. They look good, scale is good, but I'm fairly underwhelmed by the 'terminator' equivalent being the aggressors. They need some kind of invuln save. They just die too easily.


That said though - If i had a full SM army, I'd be fairly upset by the abrupt change that invalidated my army.

I returned to the Hobby last year. Now I am near the end of painting all the stuff I buyed this year. Every unit I finish I am closer to the moment where I will need to buy new minis.

Well, at this point, I am not sure the way SM will take. Lots of rumors. I will wait till CA if we see new Primaris model or at least new equipment upgrade for Intercessors and Reivers. Maybe we will some something similar to video games and his expansions or DLC.

Crimson wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

But neither of those are different unit types. People keep bringing this false equivalency up "Nuh uh! You had no problem with the Plague Marines!" Well, no gak Sherlock- they're just an upscaled version of an existing unit type- something Intercessors are not, they've bullied their way in and sooner or later these will be the meat and potatoes unit of SM armies, not the, now obsolete Tacticals.

So what? If they really remove rule support for old marines you can use your tacticals as intercessors etc. And sure, not all loadouts can be use that way, but not all 2E marine loadouts could be used in 3E either. And of course, there probably will be some legacy rules for minimarines for foreseeable future, so you don't even need to do that.

But the thing is, most people will upgrade, and they would just the same if this was just an aesthetic update. You don't see first gen DE around, you don't see old school metal necrons, 2E monopose plastic marines, let alone RT beakies. People will get the new better looking models, and old ones get shelved. This is nothing new, it just has been a long time since this last happened to the marines.

Metal necrons - yep, use them.
2E monopose- boxes full, still used.
RT Beakies- they are the bulk of my fallen.
Orks- many of mine have names and are metal. When he's in one piece, my weirdboy leads and megaphone runtherd controls monopose grots

What many have yet to realise is that a full move to primaris will lead to the removal of some chapters within the space marines and mentioned in the books. How can all the chapters classified loyal, but largely unknown details suddenly become Primaris only chapters?.

There are millions of people that own marines. What GW will find if they start changing fluff to eradicate old marines, there will be many who tell them where to shove their changes, and will continue to play older editions or house rules of no oversized marines.

Time to start watching eBay I think, all the sheep will flog their marines to finance new marines, flooding the market, reducing the prices

It's very obvious that GW is going to prune the line eventually. Primaris are obviously going to replace marines, and they will have different options, new units, the works.

My normal marines will thus inevitably be tomb kinged. Until I see proof otherwise, I won't buy any space marine models until I know I'm safe. The line seems to volatile to invest in.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

But neither of those are different unit types. People keep bringing this false equivalency up "Nuh uh! You had no problem with the Plague Marines!" Well, no gak Sherlock- they're just an upscaled version of an existing unit type- something Intercessors are not, they've bullied their way in and sooner or later these will be the meat and potatoes unit of SM armies, not the, now obsolete Tacticals.

So what? If they really remove rule support for old marines you can use your tacticals as intercessors etc. And sure, not all loadouts can be use that way, but not all 2E marine loadouts could be used in 3E either. And of course, there probably will be some legacy rules for minimarines for foreseeable future, so you don't even need to do that.

But the thing is, most people will upgrade, and they would just the same if this was just an aesthetic update. You don't see first gen DE around, you don't see old school metal necrons, 2E monopose plastic marines, let alone RT beakies. People will get the new better looking models, and old ones get shelved. This is nothing new, it just has been a long time since this last happened to the marines.

My area sees all of the above from time to time and I love it. I love when people break out old school models because much of the appeal of 40k to me is it's rich and long history, both in background models. Are those older models ugly, yea a bit but they have a certain charm and I personally find it awesome to play against someone that has a model that is from before my time in the game.

They aren't invalidated yet.

If I've used a squad of models for 3 years or so. I'd say I've gotten more than my $50 worth.

I don't know about anyone else but I had just finished my Gladius for 7th the December before the gathering storm. 6 Tac squads 2 dev 2 assaults 2 dreads 6 rhino's 2 razorbacks 2 drop pods. Got all that painted before Guilliman's big release.

That being said I haven't got 3 years out of some of that. If tomorrow GW said I couldn't use any of them anymore, then I wouldn't play any future editions easy peasy. But I play with a small group so it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Didn't GW say this was the "last" edition?

If that's the case then normal marines are here to stay. On top of that what is currently doing better? I prefer using tacticals(even though they suck) over intercessors and then hellblasters too in the same list. It's one book not two!

When I first saw the leaked photos of the primaris marines I was stoked.

"Truescale marines with Mk4 helmets and cooler bolters? That's fantastic!"

I was going to replace most of my marines out of the gate.

But then we got the background, these were not true scale space marines in the manner we expected, these were something new, different. Our new space marines were even space marine-er, out to replace all of your inferior heroes. From the mind of Cawl, the handwaviest plot device to ever handwave.

It's not the terrible fluff that actually bothers me though. It's GW's VERY obvious attempt at forcing the new units. What do you mean they can't get in a Rhino? Oh, they must be big like Terminators... Wait, no Land Raiders either? Drop Pods? Nothing? Oh no, not nothing. This new super grav Land Raider got handwaved in and ONLY Primaris can ride in it. Your cool Captain? Nope, gotta walk.

This super hard line was laid down by GW between the Primaris and classic SM, this coupled with the heavy onslaught of terrible writing about how awesome Primaris marines are and now nobody's going to make standard marines anymore gave the impression that classic is out in terms of new models, and it's a very short jump to conclude that GW will eventually move to point standard marines out of relevancy to sell Primaris.

That's why I've got a negative view on the model like, which I like the appearance of a lot. Just the idea that GW is slowly going to slide my army by the wayside leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 Brother Castor wrote:

If you currently own a painted WYSIWYG SM army the thought of having to use them as proxies for Primaris units in the future isn't very appealing.

I'm not concerned about it. I've got until at least 9th edition until this might happen. Probably longer.
Assuming for the sake of argument that it does? Then I'll pay x pts, refer to the primaris stats, & game on. Maybe I'll mount them on larger bases. Maybe I'll have to assign a few weapons to different squads. Maybe some weapon will have to be called by a different name & use a different stat line.
If someone complains about the size of my primaris? I'll tell them that's what they look like from further away. Or that it's bad computer graphics. Or if they don't know any better maybe I'll just lie to them & tell them those are old versions of the model.

 Dr Coconut wrote:

Crimson wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

But neither of those are different unit types. People keep bringing this false equivalency up "Nuh uh! You had no problem with the Plague Marines!" Well, no gak Sherlock- they're just an upscaled version of an existing unit type- something Intercessors are not, they've bullied their way in and sooner or later these will be the meat and potatoes unit of SM armies, not the, now obsolete Tacticals.

So what? If they really remove rule support for old marines you can use your tacticals as intercessors etc. And sure, not all loadouts can be use that way, but not all 2E marine loadouts could be used in 3E either. And of course, there probably will be some legacy rules for minimarines for foreseeable future, so you don't even need to do that.

But the thing is, most people will upgrade, and they would just the same if this was just an aesthetic update. You don't see first gen DE around, you don't see old school metal necrons, 2E monopose plastic marines, let alone RT beakies. People will get the new better looking models, and old ones get shelved. This is nothing new, it just has been a long time since this last happened to the marines.

Metal necrons - yep, use them.
2E monopose- boxes full, still used.
RT Beakies- they are the bulk of my fallen.
Orks- many of mine have names and are metal. When he's in one piece, my weirdboy leads and megaphone runtherd controls monopose grots

What many have yet to realise is that a full move to primaris will lead to the removal of some chapters within the space marines and mentioned in the books. How can all the chapters classified loyal, but largely unknown details suddenly become Primaris only chapters?.

There are millions of people that own marines. What GW will find if they start changing fluff to eradicate old marines, there will be many who tell them where to shove their changes, and will continue to play older editions or house rules of no oversized marines.

Time to start watching eBay I think, all the sheep will flog their marines to finance new marines, flooding the market, reducing the prices

Oh that's not a problem, even if a chapter is defeated you can still keep playing it as "the few survivors having skirmishes here and there", like tyranids have been doing from the start with the hive fleets. Out of the 7 fleets of the codex, only 2 still exist (Hydra and Kronos), the other 5 were already vanquished by somone and we play the small splinters of those fleets that still wander around.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
I thought I remember a thread talking about primaris sales, and how they weren't what GW was hoping for them. I don't remember which thread it was though.

It is just something some people keep bringing up without any backing up.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if the multipart Primaris sets wouldn't be selling amazingly well. Rules are written so that the loadiuts you get in the Dark Imperium are the best, so there is little reason to get the more expensive multipart kits.

So you're going to take back every post you've made in this thread than?

Damn dakkadakka, that's some weird double-posting.

 Jaxler wrote:
It's very obvious that GW is going to prune the line eventually. Primaris are obviously going to replace marines, and they will have different options, new units, the works.

My normal marines will thus inevitably be tomb kinged. Until I see proof otherwise, I won't buy any space marine models until I know I'm safe. The line seems to volatile to invest in.

It is pretty safe to get the Primaris models...

 Grimtuff wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
A lot of people feel that GW will now stop producing "normal" Space Marines. Some of those people feel, rightly or wrongly, that this will mean they can't use their "regular" Space Marine Army on the tabletop anymore. As someone who has run 1st Ed Space Marines and Terminators on the tabletop within the last year, I disagree with this sentiment; I understand it and can sympathize, but I still disagree.

That particular tract is not due to the models, but the datasheets. GW has their asinine "no model no rules" policy remember. What will happen to the rules for tactical squads fro example if their models got he way of the Dodo?

It's not like it's the first time something like that has happened, vanilla Marines used to be able to take Autocannons and Heavy Flamers. If you still own those models then you have to use them to represent other things.

If the basic marine profile goes away then the old marines get used as something else. Maybe boltgun marines become Intercessors and Termies become Aggressors and so forth, maybe people decide to use all the old-scale marines as scouts, who knows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Put me in the camp that isn't terribly worried, at least as far as basic Marines go. What worries me more is the pile of stuff that has no equivalent in the Primaris line yet; bikes, Centurions, the Rhino-based tanks, and so forth.

Edit: This might explain why I think the Centurions look so much like something I would expect to see as a Primaris heavy support option, I don't want that particular model to go away and re-branding them as Primaris (even if it means that a given squad has to have matching weapons) would keep them as legal options for longer.

 Crimson wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
It's very obvious that GW is going to prune the line eventually. Primaris are obviously going to replace marines, and they will have different options, new units, the works.

My normal marines will thus inevitably be tomb kinged. Until I see proof otherwise, I won't buy any space marine models until I know I'm safe. The line seems to volatile to invest in.

It is pretty safe to get the Primaris models...

What if I said I hate primaris because they seem to be lacking options and all their lists look the same? They seem too boring to play.

Maybe I’m being simplistic about this. I thought the whole idea with the GW design process to be done by CAD was that it was easier to design and adjust the models.

Couldn’t they just have theoretically just bumped the size of the sprues by like 10%+ and made all old marine models primaris sized and just had primaris be normal marines, with better armour and weapons but more limited options, and rule wise bumped all marines to +1 arrack and wound? So suddenly primaris are not ‘that’ special, or a thing other than them being vat grown or cloned?

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Maybe I’m being simplistic about this. I thought the whole idea with the GW design process to be done by CAD was that it was easier to design and adjust the models.

Couldn’t they just have theoretically just bumped the size of the sprues by like 10%+ and made all old marine models primaris sized and just had primaris be normal marines, with better armour and weapons but more limited options, and rule wise bumped all marines to +1 arrack and wound? So suddenly primaris are not ‘that’ special, or a thing other than them being vat grown or cloned?

Yeah, but then they wouldn't have been able to do the proportions change, which is a key aspect of the Primaris design (and fan-made truescale conversions).

 Perth wrote:
When I first saw the leaked photos of the primaris marines I was stoked.

"Truescale marines with Mk4 helmets and cooler bolters? That's fantastic!"

I was going to replace most of my marines out of the gate.

But then we got the background, these were not true scale space marines in the manner we expected, these were something new, different. Our new space marines were even space marine-er, out to replace all of your inferior heroes. From the mind of Cawl, the handwaviest plot device to ever handwave.

It's not the terrible fluff that actually bothers me though. It's GW's VERY obvious attempt at forcing the new units. What do you mean they can't get in a Rhino? Oh, they must be big like Terminators... Wait, no Land Raiders either? Drop Pods? Nothing? Oh no, not nothing. This new super grav Land Raider got handwaved in and ONLY Primaris can ride in it. Your cool Captain? Nope, gotta walk.

This super hard line was laid down by GW between the Primaris and classic SM, this coupled with the heavy onslaught of terrible writing about how awesome Primaris marines are and now nobody's going to make standard marines anymore gave the impression that classic is out in terms of new models, and it's a very short jump to conclude that GW will eventually move to point standard marines out of relevancy to sell Primaris.

That's why I've got a negative view on the model like, which I like the appearance of a lot. Just the idea that GW is slowly going to slide my army by the wayside leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I completely agree that the full is absolutely terrible, and has been at least since Gathering Storm.

However, writing the Primaris as a new thing was an attempt to avoid the reactions we're seeing in this thread. They tried to make them seem more like an addition and less of an replacement. It seems that really didn't work anyway, but now we're stuck with this awkward situation in both rules and the fluff. Though I appreciate that they're diverging from the old tired marine squad compositions, and creating new units. That could have been achieved by a new organisation and new gear though, without the fluff for übermarines.

However, this is details. The models are amazing, and I am not gonna let any of this detract from that. Whether they're called 'Intercessors' or 'Tactical Marines' do not affect the new marines looking better than the old ones, and I would have upgraded just the same. Ultimately this hobby is about building and painting beautiful miniatures, and maybe occasionally playing some games with them, and the Primaris suit for that just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

What if I said I hate primaris because they seem to be lacking options and all their lists look the same? They seem too boring to play.

That is certainly the biggest problem with the Primaris at the moment. It will definitely be alleviated somwehat over time as new options are released; how much exactly remains to be seen.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Funny thing is, GW did the exact same thing with Plague Marines at the same time, just without any fluff explanation - and nobody seems to care. If you put a new Plague Marine next to an old one the difference in size and design is even bigger than between a Primaris and an old Marine. However, you can still switch between both or even mix them, as they only got additional equipment.

I'd say if they had introduced Primaris without any fluff explanation or just declaring it as a new armor mark AND making them compatible with old marines (Allowing for the same exquipment and use of transports) nobody would be upset aside from the people who are not playing Space Marines and always roll their eyes about yet another bunch of unnecessary Space Marines year after year.

I think you underestimate this hobby's base. No matter what Games Workshop decided to do with Marines (or any faction for that matter) someone(s) were going to complain.

One thing that's really odd is that the Start Collecting: Space Marines box is still not Primaris Marines.

 Brother Castor wrote:
One thing that's really odd is that the Start Collecting: Space Marines box is still not Primaris Marines.

Just give them some time, they never make start collecting with newest models.

Silver144 wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
One thing that's really odd is that the Start Collecting: Space Marines box is still not Primaris Marines.

Just give them some time, they never make start collecting with newest models.

Lets hope the rules for classic SM remain in the game then, otherwise GW are at risk of alienating new players as well...

For me I'm mostly alright with the fluff, what I balk at is the ridiculous cost. $4 per marine model is already absurd by industry standard. $5 per marine model is even more absurd, regardless of if the marine model is taller. Furthermore in the Primaris boxes you get gak-all for bits to customize them, meaning you need to further empty your own pockets if you want to trick them out instead of bits shipping with the box. Granted Terminators are even more ridiculously priced than Intercessors and Hellblasters, but at least some of the boxes give you a load of bits offering ludicrous customization of models.

What I'm not sold on at all is the idea where every single unit in the army basically gets $10 more expensive, for less customization and less variation. If I wanted to pay an absurd amount of money for an army of samey-looking elites, I'd just play Eldar. Marines are supposed to be the army of the ultimate "your dudes", yet all of the "your dudes" support has been gutted for Primaris in favor of standardized BS that reduces army options for no benefit. I'll only be interested in Primaris if they either get proper terminator models that don't suck arse in rules, or if they get proper weapon options and not this monobuild nonsense. Increasing cost with increasing options is fine. Increasing cost with a decrease in options and customization is a load of gak and frankly pisses me off. It feels like GW is trying to treat me as a brainless oaf who mindlessly consumes their products without looking at the numbers.

As much as I like the Primaris Marines, I don't like that they exist at the same time as the old Marines and that they don't have the same options.
If 8E just started with both "types" of Marine as the same, it would have been far better, not only for rules, but for collecting.
15ppm 2W Marines with all the same options as the old Marines would have been ideal. Primaris could have just been Mark X armoured reinforcements without being Nu-marines altogether.

This would have allowed older players to continue using their existing collection without having this weird "are my Marines gonna get squatted" vibe, or the "my old Marines aren't as good as the Nu-Marines" nonsense. Primaris Marines should have just been treated as a new sculpt of Marine, not a whole new unit

It would have been the best of both worlds. Older players could continue using their models with better rules and have the CHOICE to update if they wanted to, while newer players could start playing and choose which armour Mark they like best.
But at the end of the day, I don't feel it was a good idea to make Primaris different than the older Marines form a rules standpoint. New units like Helblasters, Inceptors and Aggressors would have been fine additions, but Intercessors should have just been Tacticals with Mark X armour.
And all Marines should have been 2Ws

-

 Galef wrote:
As much as I like the Primaris Marines, I don't like that they exist at the same time as the old Marines and that they don't have the same options.
If 8E just started with both "types" of Marine as the same, it would have been far better, not only for rules, but for collecting.
15ppm 2W Marines with all the same options as the old Marines would have been ideal. Primaris could have just been Mark X armoured reinforcements without being Nu-marines altogether.

This would have allowed older players to continue using their existing collection without having this weird "are my Marines gonna get squatted" vibe, or the "my old Marines aren't as good as the Nu-Marines" nonsense. Primaris Marines should have just been treated as a new sculpt of Marine, not a whole new unit

It would have been the best of both worlds. Older players could continue using their models with better rules and have the CHOICE to update if they wanted to, while newer players could start playing and choose which armour Mark they like best.
But at the end of the day, I don't feel it was a good idea to make Primaris different than the older Marines form a rules standpoint. New units like Helblasters, Inceptors and Aggressors would have been fine additions, but Intercessors should have just been Tacticals with Mark X armour.
And all Marines should have been 2Ws

-

While I do agree with this, I think it's an interesting thought to entertain that Loyalist marines could play more like legion armies, with dedicated squads to do things, and Chaos marines could play like they do now, with mixed in special weapons. It could create a more interesting difference between the two armies other than "This one is spikey, and has less options"

Sir Heckington wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As much as I like the Primaris Marines, I don't like that they exist at the same time as the old Marines and that they don't have the same options.
If 8E just started with both "types" of Marine as the same, it would have been far better, not only for rules, but for collecting.
15ppm 2W Marines with all the same options as the old Marines would have been ideal. Primaris could have just been Mark X armoured reinforcements without being Nu-marines altogether.

This would have allowed older players to continue using their existing collection without having this weird "are my Marines gonna get squatted" vibe, or the "my old Marines aren't as good as the Nu-Marines" nonsense. Primaris Marines should have just been treated as a new sculpt of Marine, not a whole new unit

It would have been the best of both worlds. Older players could continue using their models with better rules and have the CHOICE to update if they wanted to, while newer players could start playing and choose which armour Mark they like best.
But at the end of the day, I don't feel it was a good idea to make Primaris different than the older Marines form a rules standpoint. New units like Helblasters, Inceptors and Aggressors would have been fine additions, but Intercessors should have just been Tacticals with Mark X armour.
And all Marines should have been 2Ws

-

While I do agree with this, I think it's an interesting thought to entertain that Loyalist marines could play more like legion armies, with dedicated squads to do things, and Chaos marines could play like they do now, with mixed in special weapons. It could create a more interesting difference between the two armies other than "This one is spikey, and has less options"

Isnt it supposed to be the other way around? Chaos plays like legions since they have been trapped in time in the warp, while loyalists have gone though the codex astartes reorganization Hence why loyalists use combat squads, and chaos can field 20 man blob of marines.

It's CHAOS, they're not supposed to be uniform and organised. They're not just 30K marines frozen in time.

 Crimson wrote:
It's CHAOS, they're supposed to be uniform and organised. They're not just 30K marines frozen in time.

A) I think you meant they're NOT supposed to be uniform and organized and
B) Some Warbands (although admittedly very few) actually ARE 30K Mairnes frozen in time. Time works differently in the Warp.

-

 Galef wrote:
I think you meant they're NOT supposed to be uniform and organized

Yes!

I love all these folks lambasting the fluff, they hate horus heresy, they hate nu-marines, they hate hate hate.

If it's not gaunts ghosts or Aaron there is this super vocal minority on the internet that feels the need to try and convince everyone their toys are dumb.

Things change, the latest Plague War book was awesome, Nu-marines are amazing models, the fluff was getting stale.

They have plenty of options, there is a chapter approved coming out soon that is confirmed to have marine buffs in it, if you don't like them then why are you playing them?

 sfshilo wrote:
I love all these folks lambasting the fluff, they hate horus heresy, they hate nu-marines, they hate hate hate.

If it's not gaunts ghosts or Aaron there is this super vocal minority on the internet that feels the need to try and convince everyone their toys are dumb.

Things change, the latest Plague War book was awesome, Nu-marines are amazing models, the fluff was getting stale.

They have plenty of options, there is a chapter approved coming out soon that is confirmed to have marine buffs in it, if you don't like them then why are you playing them?

We generally are not. I've been a space marine player for over a decade and I will never buy a single primaris model. The Plague War books were a good read but having SUPER DUPER marines added nothing. Delete the word primaris and you have the same story. And compared to the normal marine line, yea they have maybe 10% percent of the options and kitbashing potential and even that generally requires you to have original marine bitz.

The core take away that I think people miss is who wouldn't be upset that your army is never getting anything new/ might be deleted in a few years.