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No, I mean make Gauss Blasters rapid fire 2.
They'd still be better at Tesla at close quarters, but not as bad at long range.

Necrons need soup

Oh, I see. They have extra AP, so I don't think making them rapid fire 2 is better than assult 2 when you consider the cost increase that will be needed.

Currently no one uses Gauss blasters, so a buff of assult 2 would blance them. But having them rapid fire 2, str 5 and AP -2 would probably add 2-4 pts.

Tesla is strong already, making it rapid fire 2 with no special rule means it's a little worse at 24", but better at 12", and generally more reliable.

When you consider immortals are normally used with MWBD, then then it looks like more of a Nerf to Tesla, but it feels more fluffy to me.

No, soup is terrible game design and is a clear marketing ploy vomited up by bean counters. The game needs less soup, not more.

MrPieChee wrote:
Making them rapid fire 2 and keeping their 6+ hit rule would make them really expensive.

Rapid fire 2 means 4 hits at 12" all the time, so you don't care about needing to roll a 6+. Imo it's more robust. With no AP, going to rapid fire 3 could be an option, but it's probably OTT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:
You remove the "Tesla" rule and we no longer have any answer to hordes

Yes we would, it would just be at 12" instead, and wouldn't be screwed by -1 to hit.

1 - Tesla is Assault 2 currently, no AP, so we have horde Control at a range where you havent already lost as a shooting-oriented army

2 - Guass Blasters being Rapid Fire 2 is something I have wanted for a while. Even if they go back up by the 2 points they just lost in CA, I would then have no isue at all taking a unit of 10 as a Veiled in Strike Team.

3 - please dont remove the Tesla rule

4 - Please dont make Tesla Rapid Fire, it makes no sense

Pancakey wrote:
Necrons need soup

No one needs soup.

If I organised a tournament then I would only allow cp from the same faction as the Warlord. Instantly fixes lots of the problem armies, while allowing players to field what they want.

I'd also set a Max unit size on all units to 20, and play 1500 pt games, stopping this silly horde wars and making it more like the skirmish game it should be. With the drops in CA, 1500 pts is much like the 2k of 4th Ed.

MrPieChee wrote:
Oh, I see. They have extra AP, so I don't think making them rapid fire 2 is better than assult 2 when you consider the cost increase that will be needed.

Currently no one uses Gauss blasters, so a buff of assult 2 would blance them. But having them rapid fire 2, str 5 and AP -2 would probably add 2-4 pts.

Tesla is strong already, making it rapid fire 2 with no special rule means it's a little worse at 24", but better at 12", and generally more reliable.

When you consider immortals are normally used with MWBD, then then it looks like more of a Nerf to Tesla, but it feels more fluffy to me.

Tesla isn't really that strong though. It just has a range and slight RoF advantage. It has no AP, so it doesn't perform that well against armored targets, and it relies on chance in order to get it to work to its fullest, which can be denied easily with hit modifiers. Its just better than Gauss, that's all.

Making Gauss RF2 would balance out the advantages and allow it to deal absurd damage in close quarters. You still need to get into range to do that, and really, considering how every other faction except necrons seem to have some option to roll buckets of dice, the necrons probably need such an offensive option.

Destroyer Lord should be 90 points before weapon/wargear and his buff should affect all -Dynasty- units.

Flayed ones rules should stay as they are but come down to 12-13 ppm. Alternatively, 15 ppm (same as Immortals) and gain back the attack they lost. They still wouldn't see much action with these changes but at least they wouldn't be worthless

Spyders need a complete rework. Make them 50 points, 6 wounds and grant re-rolls for RP to -Dynasty Infantry- units.

Cynista wrote:
Destroyer Lord should be 90 points before weapon/wargear and his buff should affect all -Dynasty- units.

Flayed ones rules should stay as they are but come down to 12-13 ppm. Alternatively, 15 ppm (same as Immortals) and gain back the attack they lost. They still wouldn't see much action with these changes but at least they wouldn't be worthless

Spyders need a complete rework. Make them 50 points, 6 wounds and grant re-rolls for RP to -Dynasty Infantry- units.

Seems good, but the lord would have to be changed to reroll 1s to hit to avoid overlap with the d lord, and the orb should be completely reworked to be useful and to avoid overlap with the spyder.

Cynista wrote:


Spyders need a complete rework. Make them 50 points, 6 wounds and grant re-rolls for RP to -Dynasty Infantry- units.

spyder should have 6 wounds or more and be tougher.

and the repair claws should be able to add models to any swarm or infantry unit up to its starting quantity in the same fashion it adds scarabs

it would still attarct all the firepower .. but it would deserve it

+1 for Tesla destructors being either S8 or D2 ... no AP ... just lots of shots vs vehicles and able to shoot reliably at knights

Agreed. Regarding the Orb, it should stay fairly expensive but actually be powerful. Grant RP to a unit that has been wiped out entirely is the obvious solution. Perhaps even not only be one use per game.

It's on the front cover of the codex and is modelled on several of our Lord's after all. It should be an auto include yet nobody takes it....

What if instead of being a crappy one use 35 pt item, it was a permanent item that provided a 6+ FNP aura? Now, it may seem expensive if kept at 35pt, but keep in mind that necrons also have RP, so it would actually be pretty powerful. It would take a bit more firepower to destroy a unit of necrons, which means they would live long enough to get their RP rolls.

Pancakey wrote:
Necrons need soup

I miss using my Super Deathmark as a stand-in Vindicare. Yeah it was bad performing but even *I* have a slight masochistic side to me.

Remains 1-use

Affects all units in 6"?

 IHateNids wrote:
Remains 1-use

Affects all units in 6"?

6" is the standard, yes, but it would be so much better if it was a constant buff giver instead of a one trick pony.
It wasn't a one shot in 3rd ed, and that was the edition its famous from.

right...

Just checked it out, and they hit all units in 3"

Make them 6" & permanent might work?

Or instead, make them the OoE as standard (one use, preferably 6", re-roll RP w/ an uncapped +1), and then make the Relic version do the same at 12", maybe with a +2

Because a 12" bubble of Re-rollable 3+ Res will bring a Battalion back to life, and will be more than enough to warrant a Relic.



also has the happy accident to make people double check if they need the Veil, because I'm fairly certain people are sick of only having one actually outstanding good option

The Necrons need to scare their foes; give them the old rules. 3+ armour saves, destroyers with jet bikes movement of old. When my gaurd only had one way to fight SM and Crons (with the battle cannon) warriors were a serous threat. Those hight speed,, peek a boo, shooring is exactly what was needed to put down Tau crisis suits and riptides.
GW just sit one day and want to change how all the armies play out. Tau was mobility, Eldar was speed, Necron were about raw toughtness and staying power.I was into necronds knew them for. They can be used, but now the way I want or the way to make them fun.

"Thr Necrons aren'the Necons anymore"

Avor wrote:
The Necrons need to scare their foes; give them the old rules. 3+ armour saves, destroyers with jet bikes movement of old. When my gaurd only had one way to fight SM and Crons (with the battle cannon) warriors were a serous threat. Those hight speed,, peek a boo, shooring is exactly what was needed to put down Tau crisis suits and riptides.
GW just sit one day and want to change how all the armies play out. Tau was mobility, Eldar was speed, Necron were about raw toughtness and staying power.I was into necronds knew them for. They can be used, but now the way I want or the way to make them fun.

"Thr Necrons aren'the Necons anymore"

I actually like the idea of necrons being a control style army and it's actually why I just started them. I think though that their main trait is simply too easy to counter by just focus firing down 1 unit at a time. I haven't read all the thread posts but imo i think that they simply need to have rules that live up to how resilient they are. Death Guard always get their FNP so why not always give necrons the get back up even if wiped or at least give a strategem that allows wiped units to get back up.

Like I said I'm just starting them and don't really play anyone who has them so my idea might not be amazing but from what ive seen they just aren't as resilient as they should be

I think letting Ressurrection Orbs allow Reanimation rolls for destroyed units within 6” as a permanent effect, along with a Stratagem with a similar effect, would be enough of a help for durability.

Anti-tank is the bigger problem IMO. Maybe something like doubling the Damage on Gauss weapons if the target is over T5?

kombatwombat wrote:

Anti-tank is the bigger problem IMO. Maybe something like doubling the Damage on Gauss weapons if the target is over T5?

I had a similar idea:
- Gauss blaster: gets 2 damage
- gauss flayer: gets ap-2

Reasoning:
1. tesla already covers the anti-infantry role, so give blasters an anti-vehicle role.
2. a S4 ap -2 flayer would be highly versatile, which is great for a unit with only 1 weapon option.

Spyders allow any unit with Reanimation Protocols within 6" the loses its last model to make an RP roll for the entire unit at the end of the phase, this roll only succeeds on an unmodified 6. If no models succeed the unit is permanently destroyed.

Also, Spyders gain 2 more wounds.

Dandelion wrote:
I had a similar idea:
- Gauss blaster: gets 2 damage
- gauss flayer: gets ap-2

Reasoning:
1. tesla already covers the anti-infantry role, so give blasters an anti-vehicle role.
2. a S4 ap -2 flayer would be highly versatile, which is great for a unit with only 1 weapon option.

I would be very hesitant to just increase Gauss weaponry’s Damage. Necrons don’t need to be more lethal to elite infantry like Primaris, Terminators and Custodes, they need to be better against specifically vehicles and monster analogues. Hence the stipulation that the extra damage only occurs if the target has T6 or better.

Necrons got a fair amount of points reductions in CA 2018, which helps the army in general but some rules changes need to occur if necrons are ever going to be competitive. Rules changes are limited to the Spring and Fall FAQ, and since there is lead up time involved in creating the FAQs, now seems like a good time to go over what areas the necrons are struggling in, and try to brainstorm some solutions.

Anti-vehicle
I’ll try to limit myself to just this single mention of 7th ed, but Necrons went from being one of the most capable armies of dealing with vehicles to being one of the least capable. This is because we don’t have many good options for dealing with vehicles, we have very limited access to las cannons equivalents, and we bump up against the rule of three for our only vehicle with a decent anti-vehicle weapon (the doomsday ark). We currently try to scrape by using melee (lychguard armed with warscythes), and leaning heavily on our plasma cannon equivalents (Gauss Cannons). As heavily as the current meta skews towards knights, this is a fatal weakness.

Make the tesla destructor damage 2 or damage D3. 3 of our vehicles feature the tesla destructor/orb as primary armaments, and one of them uses it as a supplementary weapon. At str 7, no AP, and a single damage the Tesla Destructor is an awful weapon. Since I prefer to show as opposed to tell, here is the break down of the math of it shooting at a T8 3+ vehicle: (⅔ + (⅙ * 3)) * ⅓ * ⅓ * 8 = 1.037 damage Per Shot. As you can see that’s just not functional against heavy targets, and when it comes to anti-infantry it’s outshined by the humble tesla carbine. The tesla carbine can be taken in large amounts and has more access to bonuses to hit. So it’s a weapon that doesn’t have a role currently, and that makes a good target for changes. Increasing the weapon damage to 2 (or a D3) will bring it into rough parity with a twin linked autocannon, which is useful against light vehicles, and helpful to get some extra chip against heavy vehicles. It would also be helpful in getting 4 of our vehicles off of the bench.

Stop penalizing doom scythes for moving. Our second best anti-vehicle weapon (The deathray) is a heavy weapon mounted on a flyer with a minimum speed value. The doom scythe has no way to negate the -1 to hit from moving (outside of a specific dynasty), so it’s d3 shots tends to be pretty prone to missing completely. If they gave the Doom scythe a machine spirit equivalent (no penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons), combined with the above change to tesla destructors, it would actually be a decent tank hunting unit.
⅔ * ⅔ * 3.5 * 2 = 3.1 added to the above change it comes out at just a little over 5 damage. This puts just slightly below a quad las predator in terms of anti-vehicle capability, and I don’t believe people would argue that a quad las predator is overpowered.

Repair protocols
I realize I’m in the minority on this one, but I think reanimation protocols (RP) is in general fine (but could use a few tweaks mentioned below). It compares well to closest ability in the game to it, disgustingly resilient (DR). They both save models on a 5+, can be buffed to a 4+ (though RP is much easier to buff), and while the effect of DR is front loaded, RP is back loaded in a such a way as the enemy has to plan around it. RP forces your opponent to over commit, lest your opponent see a significant chunk of the unit he just chewed on get back up. It can be avoided by wiping the unit out, but if there was no way around it, it couldn’t activate on succeeding rounds because that would make necron units more or less unkillable. It’s disappointing that certain units like destroyers don’t benefit as much from it, and it requires max unit size for best effect, but lots of other armies have central gimmicks that have to be planned around, and necrons aren’t unique in that regard. The only real alternative would be for RP to always function, but the units that fail have to be removed as casualties and can no longer come back. So it would more or less be delayed action DR, and it would be better than DR since you could never reliably kill a necron unit in one round of shooting. Then you would have to leave the models on the board, to make sure they came back in the same place, track which units died in which round, in addition to the current tracking we have to do for morale losses.

Ditch Morale losses being unrecoverable. Tracking which losses are from morale is just an unnecessary complication that slows down play. Also the fear of losing units and not being able to recover them is a strain on our very limited CP pools. Finally is RP already has a very viable work around, kill the unit, a secondary method around it seems unnecessary.

Change Enhanced reanimation protocols. At 2 CP to reroll ones on RP, it’s a terrible return on investment. At its best it might get you an additional model back per 12 RP rolls, and more often than not that number is an additional model per 18 RP rolls. A command reroll is always a better investment (get an additional model back 1 in 3 RP rolls or 1 in 2 RP rolls near a cryptek, to a maximum of 1) for half the cost, and that’s a problem. At 2 CP I feel like it needs to reroll all fails, which would be 1 extra model back per 4 RP rolls under best case, and 2 extra models back per 9 RP rolls is most cases.

Quality of life changes
Just a couple of suggestions that won't affect play too much, but would make necrons players happier in general.

Increase the range of cryptek auras: I’m not sure who decided that cryptek auras need to be 3”, but that person has mildly annoyed me. No other command auras require the person with the aura to be in easy consolidation range of the unit they are buffing. It’s not like the auras would be overwhelmingly powerful if they did span a whole 6”.

More command points: The minimum investment for a Necron battalion is 361 points after chapter approved, and unlike other elite armies we have no way of allying in cheap units to make a battalion. I think giving overlords a +1 cp ability if they are the warlord, and Imotekh +2CP would go a long way towards helping with that. With necrons usual configuration (Battalion + Outrider) That would bring us into the 10 CP - 11CP range, and even that modest increase would be helpful. This is a moot point if GW is as good as their word, and rewards mono detachments with say extra CP for instance. If they gave a bonus 3 CP if all of your army has the same faction keyword (and imperium, chaos, and aleadari don’t count for that), it would go a long way towards leveling the playing field between soup and non-soup.

How about improving the Gauss Flayer by doubling their stats when hitting with a natural 6? So Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-1 D1 evolves to Rapid Fire 1 S8 AP-2 D2. Would have a much bigger impact on vehicles.

vs. Primaris (T4, 3+)
from 1* 4/6* 3/6* 3/6* 1 = 0,167 damage per shot aka 12 shots to kill a Primaris
to 1* 3/6* 3/6* 3/6* 1 + 1* 1/6* 5/6* 4/6* 2 = 0,31 damage per shot (186%)(7 shots)

vs. Venerable Dreadnaught (T7, 3+)
from 1* 4/6* 2/6* 3/6* 1 = 0,111
to 1* 3/6* 2/6* 3/6* 1 + 1* 1/6* 4/6* 4/6* 2 = 0,231 (208%)

vs. Land Raider (T8, 2+)
from 1* 4/6* 1/6* 2/6* 1 = 0,037
to 1* 3/6* 1/6* 2/6* 1 + 1* 1/6* 4/6* 4/6* 2 = 0,111 (300%)

vs. Knight (T8, 3+, 4++ with CP)
from 1* 4/6* 1/6* 3/6* 1 = 0,056
to 1* 3/6* 1/6* 3/6* 1 + 1* 1/6* 3/6* 3/6* 2 = 0,181 (323%)

At long range a 20-warriors-blob can put a dent in Dreads and Tanks, at short Range starting to cripple knights. Maybe limit the ability to "against vehicles", cause 2-3 20-warriors-blobs might become a thing.

I like the way you're going Grimgold, very thoughtful and explained well.

Personally I still think the basic Warrior, and Gauss in general, needs help. At the minimum I'd like to see either -3ap or -4ap on natural 6 to wound or even mortal wounds on natural 6 to wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ictaris wrote:
How about improving the Gauss Flayer by doubling their stats when hitting with a natural 6? So Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-1 D1 evolves to Rapid Fire 1 S8 AP-2 D2. Would have a much bigger impact on vehicles.

vs. Primaris (T4, 3+)
from 1* 4/6* 3/6* 3/6* 1 = 0,167 damage per shot aka 12 shots to kill a Primaris
to 1* 3/6* 3/6* 3/6* 1 + 1* 1/6* 5/6* 4/6* 2 = 0,31 damage per shot (186%)(7 shots)

vs. Venerable Dreadnaught (T7, 3+)
from 1* 4/6* 2/6* 3/6* 1 = 0,111
to 1* 3/6* 2/6* 3/6* 1 + 1* 1/6* 4/6* 4/6* 2 = 0,231 (208%)

vs. Land Raider (T8, 2+)
from 1* 4/6* 1/6* 2/6* 1 = 0,037
to 1* 3/6* 1/6* 2/6* 1 + 1* 1/6* 4/6* 4/6* 2 = 0,111 (300%)

vs. Knight (T8, 3+, 4++ with CP)
from 1* 4/6* 1/6* 3/6* 1 = 0,056
to 1* 3/6* 1/6* 3/6* 1 + 1* 1/6* 3/6* 3/6* 2 = 0,181 (323%)

At long range a 20-warriors-blob can put a dent in Dreads and Tanks, at short Range starting to cripple knights. Maybe limit the ability to "against vehicles", cause 2-3 20-warriors-blobs might become a thing.

Doubling seems a little too powerful to me.

Fluffwise Gauss weapons peel away armor, flesh & bone one molecular layer at a time. Which is why I suggest -3/-4ap or the MW on natural 6 to wound. A good,well-placed wound should almost automatically wound.

So, still a big fan of swapping gauss blasters to assault 2, and making tesla rapid fire 2 or 3, but as a simpler fix to Gauss Immortals, would a range of 30 on their rapid fire 1 blasters be enough to make them even with Tesla Immortals? Just looking for the minimum tweak to make them even.

At the moment they cost the same, and blasters are fractionally better in slightly more circumstances, but with MWBD tesla becomes much better against almost every target.

Making blasters one point cheaper than tesla carbines is another easy alternative, but then make tomb blades better still. Extra range wouldn't effect Tomb blades much at all, but make more of a difference to Immortals.

Blasters were Assault 2 in ye olden days and it was kinda cool having that effective a weapon on a T5 platform.

For fairness I think Rapid Fire 30" is less broken than Assault 2 simply because of the weapon profile, but that's a whole different discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At 15 points though? Both Immortals are now good at least.

Make Guass Blasters 24" RF2 OR 30" RF1 and I would call it done at that.

But thats just me, I have a soft spot for Guass Immortals

TBH i don't think Immortals need fixing. I think that they're a very solid choice at 15 points. Plenty Killy. Gauss is just harder to use.

The characters are one of the most problematic aspects of Necrons currently. They lack a lot of the synergistic buffs other characters from other characters can provide because they usually only provide bonuses to infantry, have abilities that are too short range and partly as a result of both of these things are massively overcosted as a result. People got excited for cheaper Lords and Immortals in CA2018, but even if you make the cheapest battallion possible you end up with an extra Lord who is functionally useless in the Necron army. In fact, because the unit only provides its bonus to infantry you could argue they're both useless and you've just wasted 140 points on worthless characters. The saddest is probably the Cryptek though; if you compare it to other characters that buff survivability of nearby units then it's just an absolute joke. Not only do the range of his abilities need to be increased and made universal for things like the Chronometron, but he needs a pretty hefty points decrease too. 50 more points than a Canoness who can give 5+ universal invuns in a 9" bubble and who actually has combat potential and a invun save as standard (along with re-rolls of 1 to hit) is just a joke. +1 to RP, Living Metal and the gakky Chronometron are not worth 50 points, especially on a model with a statline as poor as the Cryptek has.

And while we're on the topic of poor statlines the Overlord needs 4 attacks base at least. Especially since he does not have a re-roll 1 aura. I can't believe some people still take voidscythe's on them.