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 buddha wrote:
I'm cool with the fluff moving forward in general and Bobby G coming back. But I think on the loyalist side he should remain the only one. The idea of one last hope for the imperium, one last defender, gets ruined if all the good guys suddenly reappear.

He was setup since way back to just be in stasis and makes the most sense to return since he was always among the best of the primarchs (RIP Sanguinius, the true heir to that title). Adding any other loyalist primarchs would just feel tacked on.

I think this is what is going to happen, but not exactly as you describe. The other 2 demon primarchs (Angron and Fulgrim) will return. Then with G-Man beset on all sides Russ or the Lion will re-appear. My money is on Russ to come back and bend Magnus over his knee and give him another spanking. If not Russ, then Lion or both. This then sets us up for a civil war.

To be fair, 40k is such a large setting that you can head-canon pretty much anything you want. Just ignore the bits you don't like. Base your force on the 2nd Armageddon war or something well before the "current" events. If playing against Primarchs bothers you, just imagine they are powerful chapter masters. Sure it' not perfect, but 40k has always been a setting with an extremely loose canon. Personally, I ignore almost every bit of Horus Heresy fluff, much preferring that era to be barely remembered myths and legends.

Radikus wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I'm cool with the fluff moving forward in general and Bobby G coming back. But I think on the loyalist side he should remain the only one. The idea of one last hope for the imperium, one last defender, gets ruined if all the good guys suddenly reappear.

He was setup since way back to just be in stasis and makes the most sense to return since he was always among the best of the primarchs (RIP Sanguinius, the true heir to that title). Adding any other loyalist primarchs would just feel tacked on.

I think this is what is going to happen, but not exactly as you describe. The other 2 demon primarchs (Angron and Fulgrim) will return. Then with G-Man beset on all sides Russ or the Lion will re-appear. My money is on Russ to come back and bend Magnus over his knee and give him another spanking. If not Russ, then Lion or both. This then sets us up for a civil war.

If they do this, I would want the story to move forward with Magnus dying permanently. There's little point in evolving the setting if you're just introducing new, unkillable characters.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Kill the Primarchs.

Keep them in 30K where they belong.

This.

I'm hoping for Saint Arabella. Drop the whiners and the traitors and give the primarch treatment to someone that actually deserves it. Honestly, between the Heresy books and Gathering Storm/Dark imperium, I'm not sure how much more whining about daddy I can take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:


Which have been established as being active in the fluff for nigh on ages (except Mortarion. That was a retcon in the 5th ed GK codex. feth Mortarion) and not missing nor dead. The Imperium is built on the whole fact of "all your heroes are dead" their time is over. The end times are now and this is where heroes of our own making come to be made. But no, we had to have the nonexistant-u-until-recently story advance as apparently a span of time greater than recorded human history so far on a galactic scale of untold trillions of stories to be told was "bland and boring" and now we get a story focused on a dozen or so characters that are inexplicably everywhere in a galaxy.

WAS built on that. 30 years on they've decided it's time for a change, and I for one welcome it!

But why? Is our own world's history boring to you? Is it stagnant? You had an unfathomably huge sandbox to play in a create your own stories, but apparently this wasn't good enough for some.


For full disclosure, 40k is the only system I have a problem with this in. AoS, WMH, Infinity, Malifaux etc. all knew what the purpose their background should serve from the start as a rolling, ongoing story. 40k did not (neither did WHFB). There were nudges here and there and expanding the view with retcons etc. ("oh, those Centurions, they've always been there- just off camera") but the bait and switch was pulled with us on 40k in the last few years. Massive upheaving galactic status quo changing events are the norm, which they had never been before. This is not a good thing for the continued health of the game as one of 40k's greatest strengths is its background.

School children from the dawn of time have complained about history being boring. History is stagnant by nature. WHFB died. Rogue Trader and 2nd were more different from 3rd-7th than 8th is. It's hard to have fun with a sandbox filled only with sadness.

To actually attempt to be at least somewhat serious for a few sentences, I always disliked the '40k is a sandbox' thing. Because it wasn't a sandbox, sand can be altered. You can make things with sand, change it and make new shapes and structure. 40k was more of a canvas painting. Sure you could look at it and admire it, but you couldn't really do anything with it. You can imagine all the grand adventures of Force Captain Whosit and his Whatevs chapter you want, it doesn't change the fact that Chaos wins, nothing gets better, the Galaxy is doomed, the good guys are only better than the bad guys because the bad guys are REALLY bad, and then everyone dies. Every adventure you tried to set in 40k was futile by simple nature of the setting, and not even in a nihilistic way. Every single character in the entire 40k universe was better off lying down and letting themselves die wherever they stood. I know that's supposed to make the 'desperate struggle' the characters go through more heroic, but to me it just makes them seem stupid. Darkness Induced Audience Apathy.

Whichever they bring back I hope they are more like primaris size and Bobby G is only so big because he is just a head kept alive by a robot suite.

The chaos primarchs totally make sense as giant monsters, but giant sized non-mutated primarchs is one of the worse fluff revisions from the past [coming from an old man whose idea of a primarchs comes from original marine size Leman

Bring back the loyalest primarch of all

 SHUPPET wrote:
Bring back the loyalest primarch of all

Spoiler:

Alpharius

This is the other problem with talking about Primarchs returning - the old and tired memes, which have long since expired.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Bring back the loyalest primarch of all

Spoiler:

Alpharius

Wait, wait, wait....That isn't Omegon that just came out of stasis and was given a new suit of armor by Cawl?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Either/Or wrote:
Whichever they bring back I hope they are more like primaris size and Bobby G is only so big because he is just a head kept alive by a robot suite.

The chaos primarchs totally make sense as giant monsters, but giant sized non-mutated primarchs is one of the worse fluff revisions from the past [coming from an old man whose idea of a primarchs comes from original marine size Leman

All pre-Heresy Primarchs, other than Alpharius & Omegon (who are only slightly taller than normal Legion Marines), are noted as being giants among men. In the fluff (Horus Heresy Novels) and even the FW 30K models show them as almost dreadnought height.

 Crimson wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Kill the Primarchs.

Keep them in 30K where they belong.

This.

I would be on board with this except they are already a thing, so why not just open the flood gates. I would definitely want to see each of the 4 chaos daemon Primarchs (so two more to go), even though I play Iron Warriors. I definitely want to see the Lion and Leman Russ for the loyalist side. Outside of that, not bothered by the others.

 Dysartes wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Bring back the loyalest primarch of all

Spoiler:

Alpharius

This is the other problem with talking about Primarchs returning - the old and tired memes, which have long since expired.

'
awww is that your trigger?




it will never expire


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Bring back the loyalest primarch of all

Spoiler:

Alpharius

Wait, wait, wait....That isn't Omegon that just came out of stasis and was given a new suit of armor by Cawl?

Of course it is, but there's two traitor primarchs back so we need the two loyalest primarch's back to balance it out. Alpha and the Omega

 SHUPPET wrote:
awww is that your trigger?

That one in particular? No.

But as soon as people start talking about the primarchs coming back, a bunch of trolls roll out the same stale memes that've been annoying people for years.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Kill the Primarchs.

Keep them in 30K where they belong.

This.

I would be on board with this except they are already a thing, so why not just open the flood gates. I would definitely want to see each of the 4 chaos daemon Primarchs (so two more to go), even though I play Iron Warriors. I definitely want to see the Lion and Leman Russ for the loyalist side. Outside of that, not bothered by the others.

Chaos Primarchs are different, they have always existed in the fluff, they just didn't have models (except in Epic.) Making them playable doesn't butcher the setting in a way making loyalist Primarchs to return does. It is more like Imperial Knights, making a big thing that already exist in the setting and was playable in Epic playable in 40K.

Only hope I have is that (in an effort to back peddle a bit on the phasing out of old marines) a Primarch (Corax?) returns and is horrified at what Gulliman is doing to the IoM, finds the primaris to be abominations (works for Corax given his guilt with creating his own abomination marines), and sets out to oppose what Gulliman is doing. This creates a split in the IoM and results in a civil war of sorts similar to the rift between the Tau Empire and the Farsight Enclave.

 Dysartes wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
awww is that your trigger?

That one in particular? No.

But as soon as people start talking about the primarchs coming back, a bunch of trolls roll out the same stale memes that've been annoying people for years.

for what it's worth this one is not really a meme. People just hear Alpha Legion and assume it. Omegon at the very least, is close to fully confirmed a loyalist, and strong possibility of Alpharius being loyalist too, if he is still be alive. GW said a while back that 2 Primarchs that would eventually return will be leading different factions. No extra word on what that means, but I personally have Omegon or Alpharius as a strong bet as one of them.

No, repeating Alpharius is a loyalist over and over again is literally the dictionary definition of a meme.

 Grimtuff wrote:
No, repeating Alpharius is a loyalist over and over again is literally the dictionary definition of a meme.

Well, I just explained why it wasn't in a manner that confidently rolls over a link to the wikipedia page for "memes", but thanks for your well thought out contribution.

Wasn't there a whole thing with them being enlisted by the Cabal to take down the Imperium in a convoluted plot to defeat Chaos?

I wouldn't call that Loyalist, unless that was all retconning or something.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
No, repeating Alpharius is a loyalist over and over again is literally the dictionary definition of a meme.

Well, I just explained why it wasn't in a manner that confidently rolls over a link to the wikipedia page for "memes", but thanks for your well thought out contribution.

Well, you're wrong. Is this not an idea or phrase that spreads from person to person with no afterthought like other such gak as Abaddon being a failure and armless and Dorn wearing Centurion armour and having a moustache?

They're tired, repeated gak that's harvested from people who don't read the background beyond 1D4chan and Text to Speech and think it's funny.

Besides, even if you had bothered to read the link you'd see it was about the concept of meme theory and not internet memes, which are an offshoot of that.

Next Loyalist - Lion. Next Heretic Fulgrim.

Who I hope never returns...Russ.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
No, repeating Alpharius is a loyalist over and over again is literally the dictionary definition of a meme.

Well, I just explained why it wasn't in a manner that confidently rolls over a link to the wikipedia page for "memes", but thanks for your well thought out contribution.

Well, you're wrong. Is this not an idea or phrase that spreads from person to person with no afterthought like other such gak as Abaddon being a failure and armless and Dorn wearing Centurion armour and having a moustache?

They're tired, repeated gak that's harvested from people who don't read the background beyond 1D4chan and Text to Speech and think it's funny.

Besides, even if you had bothered to read the link you'd see it was about the concept of meme theory and not internet memes, which are an offshoot of that.

I can't stand 1D4Chan and it's garbage humor, I think it's 99% utter beardlord tripe and I can source myself saying this previously. TTS I couldn't make it past the first episode, throw that right in there with it.

I personally think, when asked his opinion on the impact of 40k memes and how he feels about them, Aaron Dembski-Bowden summarized it perfectly. I think me, him, you, are all on the same page, and I feel you'll agree:

ADB wrote:Sometimes... things go too far.

My son, Shakes, is 5.

Someone in the house will say something funny. Like, the baby, Annah, will say something adorable, or Katie will laugh at something I say, or whatever else. Normal stuff. And Shakes will repeat it once, at an opportune moment, and it's genuinely funny.

Then he'll do it again, because he's 5 and because he doesn't know how humour works. He thinks irreverence and repetition are humour, rather than ways to present humour. So he says something 100 times, it loses all context, and you just want him to shut up.

Also, if you repeat a lie enough times, it becomes truth. You see that with a lot of 40K memes. People still insist to me that I'm changing Abaddon's lore by having him win a few battles. Christ, the lore in 2nd and 3rd Edition explained his themes and agenda and successes in delicious detail, but the common online perception is Failbaddon the Armless. I've talked to so many peeps at GW HQ who are completely unaware or mystified by the idea that Abaddon sucks, because they only know the lore. They don't know the memes. And that says a lot.

It's not that memes aren't funny. Some of them so, so are. But it's that many of them take the core of something funny, tear it out, repeat it ad infinitum, and call it profound. Then if you point out that it's boring, stupid, or wrong, well, that rarely goes down well. I've seen it happen.

He also described 1d4chan as being especially gak at understanding Games Workshop and having an eternal misunderstanding of the company and their IP.



That being said... Alpharius being a loyalist has a lot of grounding in the actual lore, goes further than lacking any afterthought, and is also pretty harmless. As such, I find it to be an actual decent slice of fun among the garbage. Don't get roped into being "too smart" for any sort of fun just because some of it is gak.

Bring back more. Not sure why everyone is so worked up over how powerful a LOW unit is.... it's a LOW.

If you don't want to deal with them don't play comp, learn how to counter them, or play casual without LOW units. No need to kill off some fun units just because they aren't fun to play against all the time. I hate playing against all the Eldar BS/Combos that I face in my local area, but I don't start screaming for those units to be removed.

All that being said, I would like to see Vulkan come back, but I think Russ and Lion are due.

 Karthicus wrote:
Bring back more. Not sure why everyone is so worked up over how powerful a LOW unit is.... it's a LOW.

If you don't want to deal with them don't play comp, learn how to counter them, or play casual without LOW units. No need to kill off some fun units just because they aren't fun to play against all the time. I hate playing against all the Eldar BS/Combos that I face in my local area, but I don't start screaming for those units to be removed.

The distaste has pretty much nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with the fluff murder.

With that random imperial fist box out. im hoping for big man child Dorn to come back with a bigger fister replacing his missing hand.

with the chaos ones and girlyman out its already way past too late to stop the primarch train. toot toot.

Personally I think it would be pretty hilarious to see Ferrus Manus come back. Have Cawl graft his head to a Domitar Automata.

Quasistellar wrote:
Personally I think it would be pretty hilarious to see Ferrus Manus come back. Have Cawl graft his head to a Domitar Automata.

No..

It'd also lead to the ruining of everything about his legion. Ferrus Mannus did not believe the flesh was weak, he would attempt to fix that. The Iron Hands hatred of others, of themselves is fueled by their primarchs death. To bring him back is to unravel that.

Sir Heckington wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Personally I think it would be pretty hilarious to see Ferrus Manus come back. Have Cawl graft his head to a Domitar Automata.

No..

It'd also lead to the ruining of everything about his legion. Ferrus Mannus did not believe the flesh was weak, he would attempt to fix that. The Iron Hands hatred of others, of themselves is fueled by their primarchs death. To bring him back is to unravel that.

Just imagine the self loathing Manus would have, though! He'd fit right in with his children. (I'm kidding of course. Still I just wish the Iron Hands would get the slightest bit of love with some models)

Knight sized dreadnought Ferrus Manus please.

Nobody want the Khan? Might be interesting. He always had an independent streak. I think the storylines for him might be similar to Leman Russ storylines though, so they'll need to decide whether they want to build up an underdeveloped chapter or revamp an old one.

Quasistellar wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Personally I think it would be pretty hilarious to see Ferrus Manus come back. Have Cawl graft his head to a Domitar Automata.

No..

It'd also lead to the ruining of everything about his legion. Ferrus Mannus did not believe the flesh was weak, he would attempt to fix that. The Iron Hands hatred of others, of themselves is fueled by their primarchs death. To bring him back is to unravel that.

Just imagine the self loathing Manus would have, though! He'd fit right in with his children. (I'm kidding of course. Still I just wish the Iron Hands would get the slightest bit of love with some models)

Oh for sure, they really do need some love. I'm hoping with Primaris we might see something for them (Or even a normal marine character for them, I know they're pushing Primaris, but wouldn't Iron hands hate primaris? Flesh is weak, why try to improve what cant be fixed, only replaced?)