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It just did it the whole game. He had stalkers to kill too. And a deredeo. It's a pretty nasty anti-xeno list really. But it doesnt work without cheap t8.

Bharring wrote:
Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

How much of a points difference are we talking about? Because I think they're actually pretty close to where they need to be.

Possible choices for points reduction are:

A: Rhinos
B: Basic Marine
C: Marine Weapon Upgrades

And I think of those, the weapon upgrades are the ones most likely to get hit. The basic Marine might get hit to 12? While the Rhino I think will stay right where it is.

This is also a question of: "Are Tacs really too expensive or are we just expecting the points efficiency of a Shield Captain?"

meleti wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What exactly are people expecting from Rhinos, exactly?

They protect your models, make them more maneuverable, give overwatch screening, block los, shield from charges, provide disruption charges, and can go toe to toe point for point with basic guardsmen in a shootout with an extra storm bolter.

I think for Rhinos you need something worth transporting.10 Berserkers can get gak done once they're out of a Rhino. 10 Tactical Marines won't, and I think we need a lot of points changes before Sternguard start being a good choice to shove in a Rhino and send them down the board.

I gotta disagree there, Tactical damage output can out perform a Leman Russ or Riptide. In the other thread I showed that two squads can kill a Shield Captain with a 3++. Imo if you can coordinate them, they're pretty solid. The Rhinos help them out in innumerable ways by getting them where they need to be and protecting them while they're doing what they gotta do.

If you kit tacs to do damage, you go over 20 pts/wound and then lose in the enemy turn.

They dont really outperform, because they die and the russ doesn't.

Martel732 wrote:
If you kit tacs to do damage, you go over 20 pts/wound and then lose in the enemy turn.

They dont really outperform, because they die and the russ doesn't.

My Tacs come in at around 180, so that's less than 20 pts per wound. The first 7 Casualties are 13 ppw.

Edit: Hehe, charge the Russ with a Rhino and see how dangerous it is.

That's really close. 18 points a wound for t4 3+ is not much better.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

How much of a points difference are we talking about? Because I think they're actually pretty close to where they need to be.

Possible choices for points reduction are:

A: Rhinos
B: Basic Marine
C: Marine Weapon Upgrades

And I think of those, the weapon upgrades are the ones most likely to get hit. The basic Marine might get hit to 12? While the Rhino I think will stay right where it is.

This is also a question of: "Are Tacs really too expensive or are we just expecting the points efficiency of a Shield Captain?"

To be fair, there are issues with the Rhino's viability, I think most transports are overcosted due to the way transport rules work (something GW seems to struggle with every edition), be they Rhino, Devilfish, Chimera, etc. They're not totally useless, but they're not hugely useful either relative to other things to use those points on in most lists. The transports we do see being very strong are those that do double duty as effective shooting platforms (Wave Serpent, Venom).

Martel732 wrote:
It just did it the whole game. He had stalkers to kill too. And a deredeo. It's a pretty nasty anti-xeno list really. But it doesnt work without cheap t8.

If your opponent is relying on HYMPs to kill tanks, that doesn't surprise me, but then thats also not the fault of the Russ at that point. And if there's only one Russ, that's a target that can be concentrated and destroyed, or at least get bumped to hitting on 5's, with relative ease.

A rear armor of 10 meant that a TAC squad could easily destroy it in melee. Melta bombs were a thing.

There is a massive gulf between 14 front 14 rear and 14 front 10 rear.

He had fusion colliders on ghostkeels too but I killed them. I'm not impressed with tau options vs t8.

I struggle vs cheap t8 5oo since I fired all my lascannons.

Leman Russes wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't have this stupid rule to shoot twice. "If the model hasn't moved more than half its Movement value" yeah like it needs to move with its 72" BC. Meanwhile my super-technologic Neutron Laser on my Onager shoots once at 48", go figure.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

How much of a points difference are we talking about? Because I think they're actually pretty close to where they need to be.

Possible choices for points reduction are:

A: Rhinos
B: Basic Marine
C: Marine Weapon Upgrades

And I think of those, the weapon upgrades are the ones most likely to get hit. The basic Marine might get hit to 12? While the Rhino I think will stay right where it is.

This is also a question of: "Are Tacs really too expensive or are we just expecting the points efficiency of a Shield Captain?"

To be fair, there are issues with the Rhino's viability, I think most transports are overcosted due to the way transport rules work (something GW seems to struggle with every edition), be they Rhino, Devilfish, Chimera, etc. They're not totally useless, but they're not hugely useful either relative to other things to use those points on in most lists. The transports we do see being very strong are those that do double duty as effective shooting platforms (Wave Serpent, Venom).

Ok, but then what do you think of the Berzerker case?

I also think that if Rhinos were much cheaper, simply spamming Rhinos might wind up being too good. 70 points for 10 wounds at T7 3+ is really strong, in some sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
A rear armor of 10 meant that a TAC squad could easily destroy it in melee. Melta bombs were a thing.

There is a massive gulf between 14 front 14 rear and 14 front 10 rear.

Was. But yes, absolutely. Especially when Marines all came with Krak and they could all use them in CC. I hated losing that in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:
He had fusion colliders on ghostkeels too but I killed them. I'm not impressed with tau options vs t8.

Tau eat vehicles like this for lunch, with almost all of their viable builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
Leman Russes wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't have this stupid rule to shoot twice. "If the model hasn't moved more than half its Movement value" yeah like it needs to move with its 72" BC. Meanwhile my super-technologic Neutron Laser on my Onager shoots once at 48", go figure.

Yeah, this rule was a pretty dumb addition.

 Aaranis wrote:
Leman Russes wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't have this stupid rule to shoot twice. "If the model hasn't moved more than half its Movement value" yeah like it needs to move with its 72" BC. Meanwhile my super-technologic Neutron Laser on my Onager shoots once at 48", go figure.

Yeah, that was bs. They weren't good enough before, but the fix should have been just a moderst point drop, not doubling the firepower of the main gun.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

How much of a points difference are we talking about? Because I think they're actually pretty close to where they need to be.

Possible choices for points reduction are:

A: Rhinos
B: Basic Marine
C: Marine Weapon Upgrades

And I think of those, the weapon upgrades are the ones most likely to get hit. The basic Marine might get hit to 12? While the Rhino I think will stay right where it is.

This is also a question of: "Are Tacs really too expensive or are we just expecting the points efficiency of a Shield Captain?"

meleti wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What exactly are people expecting from Rhinos, exactly?

They protect your models, make them more maneuverable, give overwatch screening, block los, shield from charges, provide disruption charges, and can go toe to toe point for point with basic guardsmen in a shootout with an extra storm bolter.

I think for Rhinos you need something worth transporting.10 Berserkers can get gak done once they're out of a Rhino. 10 Tactical Marines won't, and I think we need a lot of points changes before Sternguard start being a good choice to shove in a Rhino and send them down the board.

I gotta disagree there, Tactical damage output can out perform a Leman Russ or Riptide. In the other thread I showed that two squads can kill a Shield Captain with a 3++. Imo if you can coordinate them, they're pretty solid. The Rhinos help them out in innumerable ways by getting them where they need to be and protecting them while they're doing what they gotta do.

You mean that situation that required both the Chapter Master buff and the Lt. Buff?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

How much of a points difference are we talking about? Because I think they're actually pretty close to where they need to be.

Possible choices for points reduction are:

A: Rhinos
B: Basic Marine
C: Marine Weapon Upgrades

And I think of those, the weapon upgrades are the ones most likely to get hit. The basic Marine might get hit to 12? While the Rhino I think will stay right where it is.

This is also a question of: "Are Tacs really too expensive or are we just expecting the points efficiency of a Shield Captain?"

meleti wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What exactly are people expecting from Rhinos, exactly?

They protect your models, make them more maneuverable, give overwatch screening, block los, shield from charges, provide disruption charges, and can go toe to toe point for point with basic guardsmen in a shootout with an extra storm bolter.

I think for Rhinos you need something worth transporting.10 Berserkers can get gak done once they're out of a Rhino. 10 Tactical Marines won't, and I think we need a lot of points changes before Sternguard start being a good choice to shove in a Rhino and send them down the board.

I gotta disagree there, Tactical damage output can out perform a Leman Russ or Riptide. In the other thread I showed that two squads can kill a Shield Captain with a 3++. Imo if you can coordinate them, they're pretty solid. The Rhinos help them out in innumerable ways by getting them where they need to be and protecting them while they're doing what they gotta do.

You mean that situation that required both the Chapter Master buff and the Lt. Buff?

That's what's expected. Marines are concentrating force and their HQs are leading from the front. Imo if you're not buffing them then you're not playing them competitively.

For the numbers, I believe the Riptide was similarly buffed.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Ok, but then what do you think of the Berzerker case?

With the current transport rules, I dont think a price cut on the rhino would be horrible with berzerkers.

I also think that if Rhinos were much cheaper, simply spamming Rhinos might wind up being too good. 70 points for 10 wounds at T7 3+ is really strong, in some sense.

In some sense, I totally agree, and wouldnt want to see them at 35pts again. That said, I think at 55/60pts they'd be much more functional.

 Marmatag wrote:
A rear armor of 10 meant that a TAC squad could easily destroy it in melee. Melta bombs were a thing.

There is a massive gulf between 14 front 14 rear and 14 front 10 rear.

Melee hitting rear armor was only a thing for 3 of 8 editions (5E-7E) and was commonly seen by many as an awful mechanic, particularly with 5E MC's (oh hey Ive got six attacks that basically all autopenetrate!) and when HP's became a thing as making base contact with grenades almost autokilled any non-walker vehicle (at least until they changed that partway into 7E), and GW basically made *everything* rear AV10 with 3E and never moved from that paradigm.

As is, with its 16 wounds and 2+ save, the Land Raider enjoys a greater resiliency boost over the Russ than it has in any edition before ever with the sole exception of CC attacks in 5E-7E, especially given that they started out being identically resilient with the Demolisher variant being the better armored than either a basic Russ or the Land Raider. Complaining about the Russ being T8 is kinda silly in that light. Whatever else the Land Raiders problems may be, the Russ being T8 is not one of them.

Martel732 wrote:
He had fusion colliders on ghostkeels too but I killed them.

Sounds like you successfully defeated your opponents AT capabilities in proper time and seized victory.

I'm not impressed with tau options vs t8.

There may be a case for that, but then thats on Tau as an army, and Russ tanks wont hold a candle to Knight issues.

 Aaranis wrote:
Leman Russes wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't have this stupid rule to shoot twice. "If the model hasn't moved more than half its Movement value" yeah like it needs to move with its 72" BC. Meanwhile my super-technologic Neutron Laser on my Onager shoots once at 48", go figure.

The "shoot twice" rule was a mistake, but came from the original issue that they flubbed the profiles of the Russ weapons in the first place. The shoot twice rule fixed a couple variants, overpowered a couple, and did nothing for a couple others, but GW seems much more willing to add rules than change weapons profiles. GW always seems to be more willing to awkwardly patch things than fix the core issue.

 Marmatag wrote:
A rear armor of 10 meant that a TAC squad could easily destroy it in melee. Melta bombs were a thing.

There is a massive gulf between 14 front 14 rear and 14 front 10 rear.

Easily...

5 Tacs with a regular sarge have 8 attacks and one Krak Grenade on the charge.

That's 16/3 hits and 8/9 glances from the regular attacks.
2/3 hits and 1/9 glances from the Krak, plus 2/9 pens.

Pens hurt, but won't kill it.

So, on average, you'd need about three min Tac squads charging in to kill a Russ. They can take a few hits on the way in, since three Kraks do 1 HP all on their own, and then you need only 18 swings (or 9 guys) to kill it, on average.

But shooting, which is where most damage is done...

Well, a Russ used to be glanced on a 5 by Lascannons, and not at all from Plasma. Now Plasma wounds on 4s (overcharged) and Lascannons on 3s.

Martel732 wrote:
The other Russes are still cheap T8. Killing them with HYMP is soulcrushing.

Commander tanks are a side grade to me. They are much more costly per wound, and so heavily offsets the T8.

Pask is nuts, yes.

Russes probably seem better to me than they are because my other choices are marine vehicles, which are just...

Still, I've won many games now by throwing cheap T8 out there.

I have actually seen a russ spam list go damn near tabling a knight army. Yeah the Not OP russes damn near removed 2k of knights in 4 turns, but you know Knights are OP as
The unwillingness to see just how much of an undercosted gak show the guard codex is would be funny if it wasn't serious.

Russes have way more shooting than iks per point in exchange for melee and invulns. If you understand how to leverage that, I think russes are close to iks.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

How much of a points difference are we talking about? Because I think they're actually pretty close to where they need to be.

Possible choices for points reduction are:

A: Rhinos
B: Basic Marine
C: Marine Weapon Upgrades

And I think of those, the weapon upgrades are the ones most likely to get hit. The basic Marine might get hit to 12? While the Rhino I think will stay right where it is.

This is also a question of: "Are Tacs really too expensive or are we just expecting the points efficiency of a Shield Captain?"

meleti wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What exactly are people expecting from Rhinos, exactly?

They protect your models, make them more maneuverable, give overwatch screening, block los, shield from charges, provide disruption charges, and can go toe to toe point for point with basic guardsmen in a shootout with an extra storm bolter.

I think for Rhinos you need something worth transporting.10 Berserkers can get gak done once they're out of a Rhino. 10 Tactical Marines won't, and I think we need a lot of points changes before Sternguard start being a good choice to shove in a Rhino and send them down the board.

I gotta disagree there, Tactical damage output can out perform a Leman Russ or Riptide. In the other thread I showed that two squads can kill a Shield Captain with a 3++. Imo if you can coordinate them, they're pretty solid. The Rhinos help them out in innumerable ways by getting them where they need to be and protecting them while they're doing what they gotta do.

You mean that situation that required both the Chapter Master buff and the Lt. Buff?

That's what's expected. Marines are concentrating force and their HQs are leading from the front. Imo if you're not buffing them then you're not playing them competitively.

For the numbers, I believe the Riptide was similarly buffed.

So that's at minimum an additional 134 points + 3CP or 60 points + a named Chapter Master.

That's not a good investment. Saying they need to be in range of an HQ is silly because almost all other troop choices function without needing to do the same thing.

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other Russes are still cheap T8. Killing them with HYMP is soulcrushing.

Commander tanks are a side grade to me. They are much more costly per wound, and so heavily offsets the T8.

Pask is nuts, yes.

Russes probably seem better to me than they are because my other choices are marine vehicles, which are just...

Still, I've won many games now by throwing cheap T8 out there.

I have actually seen a russ spam list go damn near tabling a knight army. Yeah the Not OP russes damn near removed 2k of knights in 4 turns, but you know Knights are OP as
The unwillingness to see just how much of an undercosted gak show the guard codex is would be funny if it wasn't serious.

Woo, a single anecdote trumps all other evidence!

Massed Russ armies aren't particularly populous, nor do they perform particularly well, in any competitive environment with any sort of consistency. We certainly arent seeing massed Russ armies routinely smashing Knight lists. Russ tanks broadly aren't actually particularly great at fighting other high T units, particularly at long range. They're ok at fighting medium armor and great infantry killers, but are really bad at fighting bigger things, particularly given how total garbage the Vanquisher cannon is.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other Russes are still cheap T8. Killing them with HYMP is soulcrushing.

Commander tanks are a side grade to me. They are much more costly per wound, and so heavily offsets the T8.

Pask is nuts, yes.

Russes probably seem better to me than they are because my other choices are marine vehicles, which are just...

Still, I've won many games now by throwing cheap T8 out there.

I have actually seen a russ spam list go damn near tabling a knight army. Yeah the Not OP russes damn near removed 2k of knights in 4 turns, but you know Knights are OP as
The unwillingness to see just how much of an undercosted gak show the guard codex is would be funny if it wasn't serious.

Woo, a single anecdote trumps all other evidence!

Massed Russ armies aren't particularly populous, nor do they perform particularly well, in any competitive environment with any sort of consistency. We certainly arent seeing massed Russ armies routinely smashing Knight lists. Russ tanks broadly aren't actually particularly great at fighting other high T units, particularly at long range. They're ok at fighting medium armor and great infantry killers, but are really bad at fighting bigger things, particularly given how total garbage the Vanquisher cannon is.

This was straight BC catachan's.
To behonest I suspect it's big weakness is Aeldari lists and infantry spam. But the point wasn't that they're supper broken its the ironic hypocrisy that X is broken but when Y wipes the floor with X Y is fine. Simply put Catachan BC russ a busted by comparison to Tau and Marine's vehicals.

Tau Vehicles can be pretty damn good. Longstrike and Hammerheads are great.

And yes, Marine vehicles suck. No argument there.

The Catachan trait absolutely needs toning down, never made much sense that they were the best big gun list. I'll totally grant that, though it wasnt mentioned above in the earlier example.

The Quadlas Pred is a stellar tank killer, the Dakkapred has major issues however, paying waaayyyyy too muc

QuadLas Pred has great firepower.

Great firepower. Except against invulns. Or until it's dead. Or if it has to move. Yeah, real great.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Catachan trait absolutely needs toning down, never made much sense that they were the best big gun list. I'll totally grant that, though it wasnt mentioned above in the earlier example.

The Quadlas Pred is a stellar tank killer, the Dakkapred has major issues however, paying waaayyyyy too muc

It feels like they didn't really know what to do for the Tank trait for Catachans, and this was a proposed idea for another Regiment but they decided to just roll with this one.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Ok, but then what do you think of the Berzerker case?

With the current transport rules, I dont think a price cut on the rhino would be horrible with berzerkers.

I also think that if Rhinos were much cheaper, simply spamming Rhinos might wind up being too good. 70 points for 10 wounds at T7 3+ is really strong, in some sense.

In some sense, I totally agree, and wouldnt want to see them at 35pts again. That said, I think at 55/60pts they'd be much more functional.

If I may, I think that your'e looking at it in the perfectly understandable sense of "I want to take 2-3 Rhinos and use them to reliably do a specific job for me."

But I'm looking at in in the way of "You mean I can get 100 T7 3+ Wound, 12" Move, immune to morale models with Aggressor-comparable shooting for 590 points?" Which I think would be a waay more obnoxious than people give it credit for. The amount of disruption you could do with that would be incredible. Assault armies in particular would be so boned by that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

How much of a points difference are we talking about? Because I think they're actually pretty close to where they need to be.

Possible choices for points reduction are:

A: Rhinos
B: Basic Marine
C: Marine Weapon Upgrades

And I think of those, the weapon upgrades are the ones most likely to get hit. The basic Marine might get hit to 12? While the Rhino I think will stay right where it is.

This is also a question of: "Are Tacs really too expensive or are we just expecting the points efficiency of a Shield Captain?"

meleti wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What exactly are people expecting from Rhinos, exactly?

They protect your models, make them more maneuverable, give overwatch screening, block los, shield from charges, provide disruption charges, and can go toe to toe point for point with basic guardsmen in a shootout with an extra storm bolter.

I think for Rhinos you need something worth transporting.10 Berserkers can get gak done once they're out of a Rhino. 10 Tactical Marines won't, and I think we need a lot of points changes before Sternguard start being a good choice to shove in a Rhino and send them down the board.

I gotta disagree there, Tactical damage output can out perform a Leman Russ or Riptide. In the other thread I showed that two squads can kill a Shield Captain with a 3++. Imo if you can coordinate them, they're pretty solid. The Rhinos help them out in innumerable ways by getting them where they need to be and protecting them while they're doing what they gotta do.

You mean that situation that required both the Chapter Master buff and the Lt. Buff?

That's what's expected. Marines are concentrating force and their HQs are leading from the front. Imo if you're not buffing them then you're not playing them competitively.

For the numbers, I believe the Riptide was similarly buffed.

So that's at minimum an additional 134 points + 3CP or 60 points + a named Chapter Master.

That's not a good investment. Saying they need to be in range of an HQ is silly because almost all other troop choices function without needing to do the same thing.

"additional 134 points yadda yadda" is misrepresenting the situation as that 134 points etc. can be buffing 2000 points worth of stuff. This conversation has happened a million times now, so I won't go down that hole again. At the end of the day, if you're not buffing them you're doing it wrong.

I find very little to be wrong with Rhinos currently. They'll get a *small* point drop. They're not going to be cheaper than Trukks who are now 59 points.

A single fire point would be "nice to have". Full fire points would end up being a little absurd. Yes, Kabs have open topped to shoot from. They also don't have Devastator Squads to pack in there.

They have index Trueborn!

...

I'll see myself out.

 Aaranis wrote:
Leman Russes wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't have this stupid rule to shoot twice. "If the model hasn't moved more than half its Movement value" yeah like it needs to move with its 72" BC. Meanwhile my super-technologic Neutron Laser on my Onager shoots once at 48", go figure.

This is the solution that leaves everyone happy: Neutron lasers that shoot twice.

Because everyone who's ever been shot by one of those has thought "god, that weapon is not powerful enough. its rate of fire should be doubled."