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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:People making fun of Guilliman's name has very little to do with his integrity as a character and a lot to do with how silly his name is. He's like the Benedict Cumberbatch of 40k.

Really? His name is hardly silly in my opinion. In fact, it's one of the better Primarch names.

Let's see, we have the Primarch who is angry all the time - let's call him Angron! But, admittedly, that's quite a cool name, so how about other ones...
The one with hands of metal - Ferrus Manus!
The one who is themed around ravens? Corvus Corax!
The one leading the Alpha Legion? Alpharius (and his twin/opposite brother, Omegon!)

But sure, let's ignore those low hanging fruit ones - how about Lion El'Jonson? Sorry, but El'Jonson is a ridiculous sounding surname, and Lion is a pretty odd forename alone.
Russ, yeah, that does sound Fenrisian (as far as we can tell from Fenrisian names and how they seem inspired by Norse ones), but Leman? That's a bit of a strange sounding one for a supposedly-Norse culture. Not impossible, but Magnus would actually sound more Norse.

Guilliman actually sounds like a suitably foreign but believable name, and actually sounds like more thought went into the name than just "hurr durr he's angry/has metal hands/likes birds".

But, that's just me.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:That's ridiculous. Roboute is actually putting in Astartes to lead Ultramar, not only are they marines they are politicians in charge of whole sectors of spacetime. Only an ultramarine fan could deny the mary sueness of the ultramarines lol

But other Chapters do that too? Like, I don't know, the Space Wolves being in charge of the Fenris system? Sure, they might not intervene with the locals, but they are undoubtedly the highest form of government there.

Or how about the Salamanders? They're in charge of Nocturne. Or the Iron Hands, who rule Medusa?
But sure, if you're looking for Chapters who rule whole sectors of space - the Astral Claws, who ruled the whole Badab sector, spring to mind.

Ultramarines aren't the only Chapter who have political duties, nor even the only ones who rule over sectors of space.

Its also because of how ultramarine fans take being made fun of.

I've got nothing wrong with making fun of aspects of the Ultramarines. The "spiritual liege" jokes and pointing out characters like Leandros from the Space Marine games, Ultramarines with sticks up their rears who know nothing but the Codex, are well worth joking about.

It's going for flat out misinformation and jokes that have absolutely no basis which is what most Ultramarine players (and other players too) dislike, because they're simply not funny.

Pointing out funny things with actual lore? Sure, great. Making jokes from things that simply aren't there or justified? You just look immature.

DA's should have it the worst having a legion based on gay jokes,

Sorry, why is that funny? Their Primarch and legion name is based off a homosexual, and other than that nothing else? That's a perfect example of what I mean by a poor joke.

If you want to joke about the Dark Angels, I'd point out the joking aspects being Lion El'Jonson's name (not because of it's origins, but because of it just sounding strange), the fact half the legion fell and the lengths they got to hiding it and their general OTT obsession with the Fallen.

Every argument I've had with ultramarine fans involves extreme biasedness to the point of being delusional, they can't handle any criticism either.

Considering that you've demonstrated above that you attribute mary sue things to the Ultramarines that they're hardly the only ones to be guilty of, are you sure that your "criticisms" of them are actually correct in the first place? I mean, are you sure the Ultramarine fans you talk to aren't actually the ones in the right?

I'm not saying the UM don't have anything to joke about. I'm just saying that "jokes" based on things that aren't real aren't funny.

What about the rock being a gay night club, its well known that in the beginning writers wrote DA's as being gay as a joke.

No because I've proved them wrong on the lore, and one even went mental when I did it, I always admit that I'm wrong so no they weren't in the right. If I could find the thread I could show you the rage, regardless of being right or wrong if you go into a rage talking about the lore then yes you have to be biased why else would you get angry. From my experience ultramarine fans are humourless and biased.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

What about the rock being a gay night club, its well known that in the beginning writers wrote DA's as being gay as a joke.

Even if that was the intent, and even if it was intended as a point of humour, should their references to homosexuality be considered a "joke"?

Again, perfect example of something that's not really that funny (subjective, I know) being treated as some kind of joke. What's funny about homosexual references?

From my experience ultramarine fans are humourless and biased.

In mine, Ultramarine haters usually over-exaggerate and misinterpret the lore, using outdated sources to support it, and claim that's humour.

I'm not saying the Ultramarines have no humourous elements (Macragge being put into an absolute chaotic state after Kurze arrived, or the interaction between Leandros and Titus/ Thiel and whoever his superior officers are), but Rawbutt Girlyman is scraping the bottom of the barrel for humour, imo.

I think the idea of the Ultramarines being Mary Sues comes from the Mat Ward codex with writing that described the other chapters aberrant and with diminishing number. Being no longer source of new chapters with the sons of Guilliman being seen as a better source. Other space marines (Raven Guard, White Scars) trying to follow the teaching of Guilliman without mentioning their own primarchs teachings.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

What about the rock being a gay night club, its well known that in the beginning writers wrote DA's as being gay as a joke.

Even if that was the intent, and even if it was intended as a point of humour, should their references to homosexuality be considered a "joke"?

Again, perfect example of something that's not really that funny (subjective, I know) being treated as some kind of joke. What's funny about homosexual references?

From my experience ultramarine fans are humourless and biased.

In mine, Ultramarine haters usually over-exaggerate and misinterpret the lore, using outdated sources to support it, and claim that's humour.

I'm not saying the Ultramarines have no humourous elements (Macragge being put into an absolute chaotic state after Kurze arrived, or the interaction between Leandros and Titus/ Thiel and whoever his superior officers are), but Rawbutt Girlyman is scraping the bottom of the barrel for humour, imo.

Oh you're politically correct then. Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny.

'but they called me a name' give me a break, having banter and taking the piss out of someone isn't supposed to be funny to the victim. Its just a laugh and when you take the piss out of people it doesn't have to be witty or well constructed, if they are annoyed by it then its a job well done. why are you trying to act all holyier than now, if you don't take the piss out of your friends and vice versa then you probably aren't that versed in fun.

Can I ask, are you gay or are you just taking offence for gay people, because I really think gay people have more pressing concerns of bigotry like people calling them F******ts, I doubt a goofy gay joke about 40k space marines are going to blanket them in oppression.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny.

Maybe it's my historian side, but I know exactly why thinking so is stupid. I mean, it's not like Spartans or the Sacred Band are unknown for both being amongst the greatest soldiers of their time and for their sexual proclivity. The joke is only truly funny if one is bigoted or massively ignorant in the first place, else it falls flat.

Some implication of homsexuality in regard to the Dark Angels might be an allusion to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote the poem “Dark Angel.”

As for casting aspersions at the Ultramarines (and Space Marines generally), I think there’s a split meaning when it comes to joking about them being gay. The more basic, and entirely juvenile, insult is simply that they are somehow effeminate. I’m not sure what in actual fluff supports this at all. But it’s the sort of “humor” one might find on an elementary school playground.

The second connotation is a bit more clever and can be summed up as a reference to some gay men getting fed up with effeminate and camp stereotypes and so swinging way in the other direction, toward hyper-masculinity. Space Marines are about as butch as imaginable and, with their strictly all-male society, as well as the time frame in which they were invented, they do sort of resemble that particular fashion or movement among gay men in the 1980s.

What I find so frustrating is that the correct path was right in front of them.

Space Marines are supposedly 8' supermen, wheras they are slightly bigger than guardsmen in their armour. Now the new Primaris are 8' supermen, they arent bigger they have truescaled.

Add a primarch and you have a natural answer. Astartes are tough but not as tough as they were in 30K, an awakened primarch means a 1st generation geneseed source and marines can be made as they were in 30K. You could call them primaris as they are throwbacks to the first generation marines. There is no reason why microscopic amounts of Guilliman genetic material couldnt 'fix holes' in geneseed of other primarchs, so primaris could be rolled out around the board. i am assuming here that Guilliman is an unending source of 1st generation genetic material, if not geneseed itself.
It is not unreasonabe to say you can renew geneseed for any marine legion with a drop of primarch blood. CSM primarchs dont count as they are all either dead or daemons.

This also means that CSM shrink to some extent, though new CSM sculpts are bigger than standard marines, they are inbetween primaris and old marines in scale.

As for the vehicles, Guilliman could simply order them unlocked. In 30k everyone rode around in Rhinos then for religious reasons only astartes and Inquisition forces could have them. Grav tanks might have been forbidden technology. But if Guilliman orders Repulsors printed from the STC bumbling guys in red robes cant really do much about it. Just assume that Guilliman took an interest in STC tech first time around, which is highly likely allowing for his character.
Cawl doesnt need to invent a single thing. No single man overturning millenia of stagnation alone. No have Guilliman bypass ten millenia of dogma. we know for instance from one of the forgeworld books that the Lighning fighter took a full millenia to enter service because of the prayer rituals surrounding the STC and testing phase.

It could work like this:

Guilliman. why arent we using grav tanks anymore.
Calgar. Grav tanks, I thought only xenos had them?
Guilliman. No we certainly had the ability. Send in that red robed fool.
Cawl shuffles in.
Guilliman. I want to you print Repulsor tanks from the STC reserves.
Cawl. What? ..... accessing data.
Gulliman. and we need heavy dreadnought while we are at it, and gravbikes.
Cawl. Ahh found it. The Repulsor tank s a most holy design, we need extra prayer to not provoke its creator spirit.
Guilliman. Extra prayer eh? Hmm
Cawl. anything that is bourne aloft from the ground is holier. We needed a thousand years of meditation cycles and placations before the Lighning fighter could be approved. The Repulsor would take even longer, its is not winged as to a bird but is held aloft by the magicks of ancient technology.
Guilliman. a thousand years testing cycle for a light fighter.....hmm.
Cawl. Prayer and meditation yes
Primarch Facepalm
Guilliman. Cawl, I have new instructions for you. Print out a Repulsor tank this afternoon directly from the STC.
Cawl. Without all the order of service?
Guilliman. Yes, just print the tank.
Cawl. If we start meditations now we can be ready for first assemblies in twenty years, less if we do a cycling penitent fast.
Gulliman. Cawl, print the tank.
Cawl. But without the holy procedures.
Guilliman. Add the STC log file to the cognitator here and press Start.
Cawl. Not the holy rune of activation, what if we are judged unworthy by the machine god. We dont even have a choir, no incense burner, nothing!!
Guilliman PRINT. THE. TANK.
.... and Cawl. I want it on the helipad this afternoon for flight testing.
.... and Cawl. once that is done print another 20000 in the first batch. I want twenty for every chapter. Priority delivery.



A bit of thought and you would have the entire new range worked out. Thankfully it is still faxable. The Imperium is big on moral truth. This might indeed be what is happening. Guillimans return allowed marines to get bigger and old STC constructs got activated bypassing all the religious dogmas Guilliman had an evident history of no patience for. However another story had to be put out, for now, so as not to offend the Ecclesiarchy, and that story is also what the fans are currently getting.,

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Oh you're politically incorrect then. Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny.

No, please, is being gay the essence of humour? Why should the Dark Angels having gay references (not even being gay) make them unlikely to be the best fighters? Haven't you heard of the Theban Sacred Band? Defeated the Spartans in pitched battle at Leuctra? Or maybe that was because the Spartans had homosexual tendancies themselves, so they clearly couldn't have been good fighters, right? But then, they were so feared they dissuaded Alexander the Great - who is debated as having been in a sexual relationship with his bodyguard Hephaestion (of course, this is conjecture, but hardly impossible or even unlikely).

Sorry, but how does being gay mean they're not going to be good fighters? Is this "the essence of humour" as you put it?

'but they called me a name' give me a break, having banter and taking the piss out of someone isn't supposed to be funny to the victim. Its just a laugh and when you take the piss out of people it doesn't have to be witty or well constructed, if they are annoyed by it then its a job well done. why are you trying to act all holyier than now, if you don't take the piss out of your friends and vice versa then you probably aren't that versed in fun.

That's not what I'd say "humour" is. If you think the only way to have humour is at the detriment of someone, then I'm sorry, but that's not what the main definition of humour is.

Humour isn't just a fixed definition - it's subjective. Your idea of it is different to mine. However, I think, and quite a few others would to, that humour with the intent to offend above all else, is quite poor taste. But that's just me.

Can I ask, are you gay or are you just taking offence for gay people, because I really think gay people have more pressing concerns of bigotry like people calling them F******ts, I doubt a goofy gay joke about 40k space marines are going to blanket them in oppression.

Bi/pansexual. And yes, the idea that having gay references is funny because gay people aren't supposed to be good warriors is both historically and biologically incorrect AND personally offensive.
It might have been a joke back then (it doesn't read like one to me), but even if it was, does that mean it should still be seen as just a "goofy joke"?

Or is homophobia just a joke to you?

...isn't supposed to be funny to the victim

Oh. I guess you do think that then.

Using gay as an insult or term of derision isn’t funny. It’s childish and bigoted. And I’m not super PC or anything I just dislike idiots who think it’s ok to insult people based on sex or sexuality. It isn’t ok that gay the lgbt community have worse things to worry about. It doesn’t justify your low grade homophobia and make it not dangerous and offensive.

And secondly dev. The idea of you criticising people who get in a rage about the lore is a joke. U have raged at me so often about the “lore” it’s crazy. And you don’t always admit your wrong. U quite often just rage until you get banned.

 Manchu wrote:
Some implication of homsexuality in regard to the Dark Angels might be an allusion to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote the poem “Dark Angel.”

As for casting aspersions at the Ultramarines (and Space Marines generally), I think there’s a split meaning when it comes to joking about them being gay. The more basic, and entirely juvenile, insult is simply that they are somehow effeminate. I’m not sure what in actual fluff supports this at all. But it’s the sort of “humor” one might find on an elementary school playground.

There is no such thing.

GW for all its many faults have never:
a) sexualised
b) virtue signalled.

I applaud them for this because cheesecake is the immediate go to for many miniatures manufacturerers, and GW have eschewed all forms of political correctness without offending anyone in the process by doing so, which is quite a feat frankly.

Yes there are sexual undertones to the Dark elves and Dark Eldar, but its isnt directly mentioned. Slaanesh might be the porn god, but the depictions are intentionally revolting and not the cheesecake we would otherwise expect.

As for the lack of virtue signalling it is evident throughout. GW has always been about mainstream toy soldier fantasy so the sexuality of space marines has always been utterly irrelevant and utterly vacant. If anything Ultramarines are sexless, perhaps even literally. It doesn't come up in the fluff in any way. now people might choose to imply they are gay as a result of thier lack of interest in women, but they have a same lack of interest in men. So then people assume that means closet gay. However in fact the sexuality of 40K is just absent from the narrative wholecloth, even a Slaanesh invasion normally manifests in other ways.

The only time we see active sexualisation is with the Lahmians and druchii pleasure cults, and both are deep background and implied only indirectly.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Oh you're politically incorrect then. Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny.

No, please, is being gay the essence of humour? Why should the Dark Angels having gay references (not even being gay) make them unlikely to be the best fighters? Haven't you heard of the Theban Sacred Band? Defeated the Spartans in pitched battle at Leuctra? Or maybe that was because the Spartans had homosexual tendancies themselves, so they clearly couldn't have been good fighters, right? But then, they were so feared they dissuaded Alexander the Great - who is debated as having been in a sexual relationship with his bodyguard Hephaestion (of course, this is conjecture, but hardly impossible or even unlikely).

Sorry, but how does being gay mean they're not going to be good fighters? Is this "the essence of humour" as you put it?

'but they called me a name' give me a break, having banter and taking the piss out of someone isn't supposed to be funny to the victim. Its just a laugh and when you take the piss out of people it doesn't have to be witty or well constructed, if they are annoyed by it then its a job well done. why are you trying to act all holyier than now, if you don't take the piss out of your friends and vice versa then you probably aren't that versed in fun.

That's not what I'd say "humour" is. If you think the only way to have humour is at the detriment of someone, then I'm sorry, but that's not what the main definition of humour is.

Humour isn't just a fixed definition - it's subjective. Your idea of it is different to mine. However, I think, and quite a few others would to, that humour with the intent to offend above all else, is quite poor taste. But that's just me.

Can I ask, are you gay or are you just taking offence for gay people, because I really think gay people have more pressing concerns of bigotry like people calling them F******ts, I doubt a goofy gay joke about 40k space marines are going to blanket them in oppression.

Bi/pansexual. And yes, the idea that having gay references is funny because gay people aren't supposed to be good warriors is both historically and biologically incorrect AND personally offensive.
It might have been a joke back then (it doesn't read like one to me), but even if it was, does that mean it should still be seen as just a "goofy joke"?

Or is homophobia just a joke to you?

...isn't supposed to be funny to the victim

Oh. I guess you do think that then.

It isn't the past, homosexuality was rife in greek culture, times have changed and yeah gay people aren't going in droves to join the army. Everything can be a joke to me, the essence of a joke is that it is out of place or ironic etc. and yes Astartes being gay is funny. The gay people I know for one are not like you, they have thick skin and tell more gay jokes than I do, even though I'm not even telling a gay joke I'm just stating that the early writers wrote the DA's as gay. Listen think of me as homophobic all you want I literally couldn't care what overly sensitive people think of me.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It isn't the past, homosexuality was rife in greek culture, times have changed

Yeah. I bet they did change a lot between ancient Greece and the 41st Millenium.

Why would some people's stigma about gay soldiers be a factor in M41?

and yeah gay people aren't going in droves to join the army.

But there's nothing wrong with them being in it, and it's not a funny matter.

Everything can be a joke to me, the essence of a joke is that it is out of place or ironic etc. and yes Astartes being gay is funny.

To you. That's not a fact, and it's certainly not 100% accurate to everyone.

What is out of place or ironic about the Dark Angels being inspired (not even actually gay, I might add) by a homosexual?

I'm just stating that the early writers wrote the DA's as gay.

You're also saying that it's a joke. Which is the main point I'm hitting at here.

Listen think of me as homophobic all you want I literally couldn't care what overly sensitive people think of me.

If thinking that finding gay soliders is funny is being "overly sensitive", I really don't know what to say.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It isn't the past, homosexuality was rife in greek culture, times have changed

Yeah. I bet they did change a lot between ancient Greece and the 41st Millenium.

Why would some people's stigma about gay soldiers be a factor in M41?

and yeah gay people aren't going in droves to join the army.

But there's nothing wrong with them being in it, and it's not a funny matter.

Everything can be a joke to me, the essence of a joke is that it is out of place or ironic etc. and yes Astartes being gay is funny.

To you. That's not a fact, and it's certainly not 100% accurate to everyone.

What is out of place or ironic about the Dark Angels being inspired (not even actually gay, I might add) by a homosexual?

I'm just stating that the early writers wrote the DA's as gay.

You're also saying that it's a joke. Which is the main point I'm hitting at here.

Listen think of me as homophobic all you want I literally couldn't care what overly sensitive people think of me.

If thinking that finding gay soliders is funny is being "overly sensitive", I really don't know what to say.

In the past all men were expected to fight.

It is a fact that humour is based on incongruity and irony.

You are being overly sensitive, to ridiculous proportions. Gay people acting feminine isn't a stereotype, they do act feminine and there is nothing wrong about that and war has always been a masculine activity, therefore the two are out of place. Yes there are masculine bad ass gays, Alexander the great for instance was the greatest military mind and one of the best warriors ever, making a joke between gays and the military isn't saying they can't be in the military but look at the contemporary military, statistically it isn't a place that gays are running towards. Dude you need to lighten up. and I never even said the joke was funny.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Gay people acting feminine isn't a stereotype, they do act feminine and there is nothing wrong about that and war has always been a masculine activity, therefore the two are out of place. Yes there are masculine bad ass gays, Alexander the great for instance was the greatest military mind and one of the best warriors ever, making a joke between gays and the military isn't saying they can't be in the military but look at the contemporary military, statistically it isn't a place that gays are running towards.

The ancient greeks weren't "gay" quite as we might understand it though. In their society women were seen as inferior beings, needed for having a couple kids to continue the family and little else. Your friends were men, your superiors and underlings were men, anyone you dealt with were men. Only a man could understand the problems of a man so speaking to your wife about "complicated stuff" was as useful as speaking about it to your horse. You weren't against the natural order for staying with other men and maybe having some sport with them, you did the sensible thing in not getting more kids than needed while having equal companions to speak to.

If anything modern professional military (and sports) is quite a lot like it still. Guys who prefer to hang out with guys. Without being in any way gay, ofc. They have a wife back home. ;-)

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
In the past all men were expected to fight.

And? Is the fact some of them were gay funny? What's funny about it?

It is a fact that humour is based on incongruity and irony.

And please, tell me what's incongruous or ironic about some supersoldiers in the DISTANT FAR FUTURE having a few REFERENCES (not actually even necessarily gay themselves) to a homosexual poet?

Look, I know humour is subjective, but really?

You are being overly sensitive, to ridiculous proportions.

I really don't think I am.

I'm just asking you to clarify here - you think that gay people are funny when they're soldiers? Why?

Gay people acting feminine isn't a stereotype, they do act feminine and there is nothing wrong about that and war has always been a masculine activity, therefore the two are out of place.

What? Dude, no?!

Not all gay people are feminine. That's absolutely a stereotype. Source - me. Unless you're really going to go out there and say ALL gay people act feminine - because otherwise, that would be a stereotype.
Furthermore, straight people can be feminine.

What you're falling into the trap of is saying "feminine people in war is incongruous, and therefore funny" (which is a whole can of worms in itself), but that's based on untruths and simple falsehoods.

Not all gays are feminine. That alone should be enough to say that the whole "gays in war is funny lolz" idea is pretty dumb.

Yes there are masculine bad ass gays, Alexander the great for instance was the greatest military mind and one of the best warriors ever, making a joke between gays and the military isn't saying they can't be in the military but look at the contemporary military, statistically it isn't a place that gays are running towards.

Good thing we're not talking about the contemporary military, isn't it. We're talking about a quasi-religious brotherhood of warrior monks in the 41st millenium.

Dude you need to lighten up.

Alternatively, I don't need to do anything, and you might want to consider that you're hiding behind quite grossly homophobic statements as "jokes".

I don't really see what this has to do with Primaris fluff, but if you really want to try and justify your ideas of "humour" in a PM, I'll hear it out.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
In the past all men were expected to fight.

And? Is the fact some of them were gay funny? What's funny about it?

It is a fact that humour is based on incongruity and irony.

And please, tell me what's incongruous or ironic about some supersoldiers in the DISTANT FAR FUTURE having a few REFERENCES (not actually even necessarily gay themselves) to a homosexual poet?

Look, I know humour is subjective, but really?

You are being overly sensitive, to ridiculous proportions.

I really don't think I am.

I'm just asking you to clarify here - you think that gay people are funny when they're soldiers? Why?

Gay people acting feminine isn't a stereotype, they do act feminine and there is nothing wrong about that and war has always been a masculine activity, therefore the two are out of place.

What? Dude, no?!

Not all gay people are feminine. That's absolutely a stereotype. Source - me. Unless you're really going to go out there and say ALL gay people act feminine - because otherwise, that would be a stereotype.
Furthermore, straight people can be feminine.

What you're falling into the trap of is saying "feminine people in war is incongruous, and therefore funny" (which is a whole can of worms in itself), but that's based on untruths and simple falsehoods.

Not all gays are feminine. That alone should be enough to say that the whole "gays in war is funny lolz" idea is pretty dumb.

Yes there are masculine bad ass gays, Alexander the great for instance was the greatest military mind and one of the best warriors ever, making a joke between gays and the military isn't saying they can't be in the military but look at the contemporary military, statistically it isn't a place that gays are running towards.

Good thing we're not talking about the contemporary military, isn't it. We're talking about a quasi-religious brotherhood of warrior monks in the 41st millenium.

Dude you need to lighten up.

Alternatively, I don't need to do anything, and you might want to consider that you're hiding behind quite grossly homophobic statements as "jokes".

I don't really see what this has to do with Primaris fluff, but if you really want to try and justify your ideas of "humour" in a PM, I'll hear it out.

I never said it was funny. I stated that DA's should be mocked because they were created as being gay and people call Guilliman Girlyman, so people that call Guilliman Girlyman are going to find DA's being gay funny.

Its not a stereotype in the slightest 'most' gay men are feminine and saying they are not is disingenuous.

I'm not hiding behind anything, I never qualified or agreed with the joke, all I did was state that it is a joke and you are completely ignoring that, you are purposefully making this an issue. I've got absolutely nothing against gay people, I'm not playing this game.

This whole line of discussion is so irrelevant. There is nothing explicitly homosexual about Space Marines and there most likely never will be. Though, of course, there are always homoerotic undertones in an environment of hyper-masculinity (I should know, I was an Infantryman).

I've seen accusations of homosexuality or homosexuality used as a punchline flung in both directions here on Dakka Dakka. Some people think it's OK to do the projection thing and imply that people who don't want FemMarines must be latently homosexual etc. I'm the last person to be PC or get offended by things like that on behalf of other people but it's middle-school level material at best, no matter who is wielding it or for what purpose. It's not like I have any authority or level of respect but I'd recommend just dropping it, unless the topic is specifically to discuss the homoerotic undertones of an all-male warrior culture it's not really worth talking about.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said it was funny.

So, you saying "Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny" didn't happen?

You literally did say the words "Its funny because" and "you know exactly why its funny", plus saying "yes Astartes being gay is funny". Did that not happen?

I stated that DA's should be mocked because they were created as being gay and people call Guilliman Girlyman, so people that call Guilliman Girlyman are going to find DA's being gay funny.

I just quoted what you said.

And you've not proven that they were "created" as being gay. They have references to a homosexual poet, and apparently a gay nightclub, but themselves being gay? Where's the proof?

Its not a stereotype in the slightest 'most' gay men are feminine and saying they are not is disingenuous.

Do you know the definition of a stereotype? A stereotype is a widely held, and oversimplified view of something - which the statement "they (gay people) act feminine" absolutely is.

You didn't say "some gay people" - you didn't even seem to register that it's not just gay people who act feminine - you made a massive generalisation. It wouldn't be an issue if you admitted that, but trying to backtrack and imply you meant something else all along really isn't a good look.

I'm not hiding behind anything, I never qualified or agreed with the joke, all I did was state that it is a joke and you are completely ignoring that, you are purposefully making this an issue.

A joke requires it to be funny. Otherwise, it's just a comment made in bad taste. And gee, look how much I'm laughing.
But then, you do say "isn't supposed to be funny to the victim" - does this mean that you're victimising me?

I don't find it funny. Do you find it funny?
You DID say that "Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny", and then go on to say stuff which I've quoted up above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
unless the topic is specifically to discuss the homoerotic undertones of an all-male warrior culture it's not really worth talking about.

I don't think it's worth talking about, especially not on this topic, but if someone's going to be homophobic, I don't think it's appropriate to let them passively get away with rather offensive and stereotypical "jokes".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said it was funny.

So, you saying "Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny" didn't happen?

You literally did say the words "Its funny because" and "you know exactly why its funny", plus saying "yes Astartes being gay is funny". Did that not happen?

I stated that DA's should be mocked because they were created as being gay and people call Guilliman Girlyman, so people that call Guilliman Girlyman are going to find DA's being gay funny.

I just quoted what you said.

And you've not proven that they were "created" as being gay. They have references to a homosexual poet, and apparently a gay nightclub, but themselves being gay? Where's the proof?

Its not a stereotype in the slightest 'most' gay men are feminine and saying they are not is disingenuous.

Do you know the definition of a stereotype? A stereotype is a widely held, and oversimplified view of something - which the statement "they (gay people) act feminine" absolutely is.

You didn't say "some gay people" - you didn't even seem to register that it's not just gay people who act feminine - you made a massive generalisation. It wouldn't be an issue if you admitted that, but trying to backtrack and imply you meant something else all along really isn't a good look.

I'm not hiding behind anything, I never qualified or agreed with the joke, all I did was state that it is a joke and you are completely ignoring that, you are purposefully making this an issue.

A joke requires it to be funny. Otherwise, it's just a comment made in bad taste. And gee, look how much I'm laughing.
But then, you do say "isn't supposed to be funny to the victim" - does this mean that you're victimising me?

I don't find it funny. Do you find it funny?
You DID say that "Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny", and then go on to say stuff which I've quoted up above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
unless the topic is specifically to discuss the homoerotic undertones of an all-male warrior culture it's not really worth talking about.

I don't think it's worth talking about, especially not on this topic, but if someone's going to be homophobic, I don't think it's appropriate to let them passively get away with rather offensive and stereotypical "jokes".

Yeah I can explain the humour in something without commenting on what I personally think about the joke.

Yes you just quoted what I said.

I don't need to prove it, next the the GW building there was a gay night club called the rock, the old writers have said all this.

No a stereotype is a generalisation that is unfounded. If its a generalisation its just a generalisation.

Dude I'm not backtracking, I don't care what you think, especially not after this discussion.

Again most gay men are feminine and there is nothing wrong with that, but you think there is obviously.

As in the victimising, pppfftttt, banter between mates is directed at someone to take the piss out of them, so they are the victim of banter. You're ridiculous.

Yeah I don't expect the best fighters to be gay, because of the minority of gays in the army and as fighters, if more went into the army and fighting then they'd just progress the same. I'm done here, call me a homophobe all you want, you're a joke mate, this is the stupidest argument of all time. "are you calling me a joke because I'm gay" in 5,4,3,2...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah I can explain the humour in something without commenting on what I personally think about the joke.

You literally said it was funny.

Yes you just quoted what I said.

Yes. You saying "its funny" before you saying that you never said you found it funny. That's why I quoted it.

I don't need to prove it, next the the GW building there was a gay night club called the rock, the old writers have said all this.

What I was asking for proof of was the DA actually being gay THEMSELVES, not just taking some naming inspiration from certain homosexual things and people.

No a stereotype is a generalisation that is unfounded. If its a generalisation its just a generalisation.

Please, look up the definition of a stereotype.

Dude I'm not backtracking, I don't care what you think, especially not after this discussion.

I'm asking you to care what I think. I'm asking you to stop making homophobic remarks because they breach Rule 1 on this site.

Again most gay men are feminine and there is nothing wrong with that, but you think there is obviously.

I'm asking for your source of "most gay men are feminine". Can you supply that source? Because if it's just your opinion or experience, I'm sorry to say that my experience is different and contradictory to that.

As in the victimising, pppfftttt, banter between mates is directed at someone to take the piss out of them, so they are the victim of banter. You're ridiculous.

But we're not mates. You're not having "banter" with me, you're just making broad assumptions about an entire community.

Yeah I don't expect the best fighters to be gay, because of the minority of gays in the army and as fighters, if more went into the army and fighting then they'd just progress the same.

With your understanding of the MODERN military. We're not talking about the MODERN military, are we?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah I can explain the humour in something without commenting on what I personally think about the joke.

You literally said it was funny.

Yes you just quoted what I said.

Yes. You saying "its funny" before you saying that you never said you found it funny. That's why I quoted it.

I don't need to prove it, next the the GW building there was a gay night club called the rock, the old writers have said all this.

What I was asking for proof of was the DA actually being gay THEMSELVES, not just taking some naming inspiration from certain homosexual things and people.

No a stereotype is a generalisation that is unfounded. If its a generalisation its just a generalisation.

Please, look up the definition of a stereotype.

Dude I'm not backtracking, I don't care what you think, especially not after this discussion.

I'm asking you to care what I think. I'm asking you to stop making homophobic remarks because they breach Rule 1 on this site.

Again most gay men are feminine and there is nothing wrong with that, but you think there is obviously.

I'm asking for your source of "most gay men are feminine". Can you supply that source? Because if it's just your opinion or experience, I'm sorry to say that my experience is different and contradictory to that.

As in the victimising, pppfftttt, banter between mates is directed at someone to take the piss out of them, so they are the victim of banter. You're ridiculous.

But we're not mates. You're not having "banter" with me, you're just making broad assumptions about an entire community.

Yeah I don't expect the best fighters to be gay, because of the minority of gays in the army and as fighters, if more went into the army and fighting then they'd just progress the same.

With your understanding of the MODERN military. We're not talking about the MODERN military, are we?

Good for you.

So it appears we have dropped into the 1970s here. It is outrageous to say “most” gays are anything or another thing. It’s bigotry and homophobia. It’s the kind of nasty insidious homophobia that makes me livid. Same with lowkey racism or sexism.

Let me guess Dev “some of your best friends are gay/black/etc”. Using gay as an insult is just not acceptable. Even as a joke.

Andykp wrote:
So it appears we have dropped into the 1970s here. It is outrageous to say “most” gays are anything or another thing. It’s bigotry and homophobia. It’s the kind of nasty insidious homophobia that makes me livid. Same with lowkey racism or sexism.

Let me guess Dev “some of your best friends are gay/black/etc”. Using gay as an insult is just not acceptable. Even as a joke.

Apparently calling that out though is just being sensitive and ridiculous.

Andykp wrote:
So it appears we have dropped into the 1970s here. It is outrageous to say “most” gays are anything or another thing. It’s bigotry and homophobia. It’s the kind of nasty insidious homophobia that makes me livid. Same with lowkey racism or sexism.

Let me guess Dev “some of your best friends are gay/black/etc”. Using gay as an insult is just not acceptable. Even as a joke.

Its not outrageous, I can't roll my eyes far enough back into my head due to your outrage. Most women can get pregnant OH MY GOD! Stop the presses.

Yes some of my friends are gay and black etc. and they don't think I'm homophobic or racist etc. so I don't care what you people think. (oh I said you people that must make me humanphobe)

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yes some of my friends are gay and black etc. and they don't think I'm homophobic or racist etc. so I don't care what you people think.

But we're using text to convey meaning here. It's pretty hard to tell "friendly banter among friends" from "racial/sexual slurs against outsiders" in plain text. Adding a nice smiley doesn't necessarily cut it.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yes some of my friends are gay and black etc. and they don't think I'm homophobic or racist etc. so I don't care what you people think.

But we're using text to convey meaning here. It's pretty hard to tell "friendly banter among friends" from "racial/sexual slurs against outsiders" in plain text. Adding a nice smiley doesn't necessarily cut it.

Whatever.

If you don’t see generalising and prejudging people like that is wrong then you probably never will. Gay isn’t an insult or a joke. It’s a sexual orientation. It doesn’t preclude certain physical or emotional attributes. The idea that gay don’t make good soldiers is so last century too. All aspects of the British military actively recruit from the lgbt community. I have met a cross dressing ww2 veteran who was in the original SAS and wasn’t at all feminine. Even though he was wearing a pink nighty at the time.

The dark angles may have been a bad gay joke in the 80s (I’m not sure they were) but that doesn’t wash now. It isn’t ok to to make those comments and worse, defend them as funny because they allude to an outdated stereotype. As said above, it’s either homophobic or very juvenile.

And I’m not som much outraged as annoyed. I don’t imagine you and I would get on in the real world. And that’s fine. But please stop trying to downplay your prejudices as harmless. They aren’t. They are toxic. I remember comments you made during at least one of the recent female marines debates and these comments don’t surprise me. And I’m glad Sgt smudge has called you out on it here.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It cheapens the lore of the space marines.

The whole point of the space marines was that they were ascended beyond simple humanity to be it’s saviours, and invariably failed and brought humanity’s doom. The irony being that even the most powerful human/post human being in the galaxy could not save humanity from itself and in the end we are all doomed.

All the flaws and the history are what made you fall in love with the marines despite the fact that they are post human killing machines. That’s why we love blood angels, space wolves and dark angels, because we know deep down inside that they are fundamentally flawed just like us but they still rise to the occasion and defend the humanity they know cannot defend themselves.

Then along comes these “moar awesomer” marines to take the place of the ones we have known and loved for decades. They don’t have the flaws and are better in every way. How fething boring can you get? So where’s the tragedy? Where’s the plight? It makes everything that happened before inconsequential if they can just force these marines into existence to pick up the slack for the rest of the imperium.

This also flies in the face of the established lore of 40k. It’s the dark ages of the future. There is no room for advancement. There is only ignorance, religion and war. I want 40k to be doomed. I don’t want to see a renaissance. That’s not what I signed up for with 40k. I want the most grim dark, hopeless, horrific fantasy space opera ever devised.

Also, I’ve been around the block with this hobby and had Fantasy destroyed right before my eyes. To watch GW do the same with Fenris, Baal and Cadia breaks my heart. To see it replaced by garbage lore and garbage rules is painful.

Don’t pander to the lowest common denominator GW. Have some self respect. There are more important things in this world than money like art and pride in your work.

Brings a tear to my eye, mate. May their glory never fade.


Addendum. wtf happened to this thread?

Andykp wrote:
If you don’t see generalising and prejudging people like that is wrong then you probably never will. Gay isn’t an insult or a joke. It’s a sexual orientation. It doesn’t preclude certain physical or emotional attributes. The idea that gay don’t make good soldiers is so last century too. All aspects of the British military actively recruit from the lgbt community. I have met a cross dressing ww2 veteran who was in the original SAS and wasn’t at all feminine. Even though he was wearing a pink nighty at the time.

The dark angles may have been a bad gay joke in the 80s (I’m not sure they were) but that doesn’t wash now. It isn’t ok to to make those comments and worse, defend them as funny because they allude to an outdated stereotype. As said above, it’s either homophobic or very juvenile.

And I’m not som much outraged as annoyed. I don’t imagine you and I would get on in the real world. And that’s fine. But please stop trying to downplay your prejudices as harmless. They aren’t. They are toxic. I remember comments you made during at least one of the recent female marines debates and these comments don’t surprise me. And I’m glad Sgt smudge has called you out on it here.

I never said that gay is an insult, I said it is a joke to the early writers of 40k, it is a joke by their standards which is the point I made. So blab about your virtue signally all you want.

Yes space marines shouldn't be female, how in the feth is that sexist. I collect Sisters of Battle and I don't want male sisters of battle, to you that isn't the same as 'I don't want female marines' because you are so used to virtue signalling that you haven't spent any time actually thinking for yourself or having your own opinion. Thinking that not wanting female marines is sexist is just pathetic. I mean anything that is changed in the lore, even far more trivial things like that are raged against, look at the Primaris marines, people are in a rage because they are 'better' marines and you want to drastically change marines by making them female and then by not supporting that you think is sexist, I mean do you ever just take time to actually listen to yourself? Maybe I'm just old, but yes I have to be taking crazy pills.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Addendum. wtf happened to this thread?

An important and serious discussion about humor with perfect stranger, bigotry and the representation of sexual minority in popular fiction media occured. It happens once in a while, especially as we grow more critical of popular fiction and media treatment of minorities. No need to panic, we can still talk about why the Primaris Marine fluff is so reviled. In my opinion, it sits uncomfortably and was unnesseary, but its not THAT bad. It stand to be improvedby expending on their origin and especially be extanting on the character of Cawl who, like his faction, is new fluff wise.