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So, the Butcher Cannons cause -2ld to Units which suffered a loss by them. However, in the data sheet it says "this modifier is not cumulative"

So, does that mean that losses from multiple casualties from this weapon do not stack but all other ld modifiers still apply? Or is the -2 from the butcher cannon lost when a ld modifier from another unit applies?

Morkphoiz wrote:
So, the Butcher Cannons cause -2ld to Units which suffered a loss by them. However, in the data sheet it says "this modifier is not cumulative"

So, does that mean that losses from multiple casualties from this weapon do not stack but all other ld modifiers still apply? Or is the -2 from the butcher cannon lost when a ld modifier from another unit applies?

HIWPI - I assume the intent is that the -2Ld is not cumulative with other losses from Butcher Cannons. I'd allow other leadership modifiers.

RAW - If it doesn't specify, I'd say the rules don't allow it to be cumulative with any other modifiers from other abilities.

It’s supposed to mean you don’t get another -2Ld from being shot by another Butcher Cannon in the same phase. But it’s FW Index wording, so it’s notoriously pants and needs interpolating to function correctly. Annoying, but it’s not hard to see what the intention was unless you’re dead set on being obtuse.

RaW it's not cumulative, period. It doesn't stack with any other effect from any source.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RaW it's not cumulative, period. It doesn't stack with any other effect from any source.

How would this work with someone who has a +1Ld effect from elsewhere - does the +1 prevent the -2, or the -2 prevent the +1?

Out of curiosity - not trying to be a smartass!

If the unit that suffered losses from the butcher cannon was affected by a LD modifiers before, the -2 from the butcher cannon does nothing. Clearly not intended, but RAW.

 p5freak wrote:
If the unit that suffered losses from the butcher cannon was affected by a LD modifiers before, the -2 from the butcher cannon does nothing. Clearly not intended, but RAW.

Correct. The same way the Sicarian (I think that is how it's spelled) ignores all negative modifiers to hit against models with FLY, not just those from a flyer moving fast. I disagree that it isn't intended. RaW is RaI, rules were intentionally written, they didn't spring out of thin air.

Morkphoiz wrote:
So, the Butcher Cannons cause -2ld to Units which suffered a loss by them. However, in the data sheet it says "this modifier is not cumulative"

So, does that mean that losses from multiple casualties from this weapon do not stack but all other ld modifiers still apply? Or is the -2 from the butcher cannon lost when a ld modifier from another unit applies?

Poor wording, but from lack of other description, only ignores cumulative results from butcher cannons.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If the unit that suffered losses from the butcher cannon was affected by a LD modifiers before, the -2 from the butcher cannon does nothing. Clearly not intended, but RAW.

Correct. The same way the Sicarian (I think that is how it's spelled) ignores all negative modifiers to hit against models with FLY, not just those from a flyer moving fast. I disagree that it isn't intended. RaW is RaI, rules were intentionally written, they didn't spring out of thin air.

Quit. With. This. Fallacy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If the unit that suffered losses from the butcher cannon was affected by a LD modifiers before, the -2 from the butcher cannon does nothing. Clearly not intended, but RAW.

Correct. The same way the Sicarian (I think that is how it's spelled) ignores all negative modifiers to hit against models with FLY, not just those from a flyer moving fast. I disagree that it isn't intended. RaW is RaI, rules were intentionally written, they didn't spring out of thin air.

I know you will never understand this, but Raw isn't always RaI. Authors make logical mistakes. Authors write things they think will be interpreted one way, but aren't. This forum would be better off if you'd stop trying to impose the idea that the rules that were written always represent the author's intention. At the very least, you should acknowledge that you aren't the author and can never know the author's intent short of a Designer's Commentary type note. Claiming that RaW = RaI when you can never really know RaI isn't useful and takes away from the conversation.

The pretty clear intention in this case is that regardless of how many shots you take from different Butcher Cannons, you'll never take more than a -2Ld penalty from those shots. What was written is, at best, ambiguous. As per normal, agree how to play before the game with your opponent or a TO and send a question to the GW rules email address.

 Kriswall wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If the unit that suffered losses from the butcher cannon was affected by a LD modifiers before, the -2 from the butcher cannon does nothing. Clearly not intended, but RAW.

Correct. The same way the Sicarian (I think that is how it's spelled) ignores all negative modifiers to hit against models with FLY, not just those from a flyer moving fast. I disagree that it isn't intended. RaW is RaI, rules were intentionally written, they didn't spring out of thin air.

I know you will never understand this, but Raw isn't always RaI. Authors make logical mistakes. Authors write things they think will be interpreted one way, but aren't. This forum would be better off if you'd stop trying to impose the idea that the rules that were written always represent the author's intention. At the very least, you should acknowledge that you aren't the author and can never know the author's intent short of a Designer's Commentary type note. Claiming that RaW = RaI when you can never really know RaI isn't useful and takes away from the conversation.

The pretty clear intention in this case is that regardless of how many shots you take from different Butcher Cannons, you'll never take more than a -2Ld penalty from those shots. What was written is, at best, ambiguous. As per normal, agree how to play before the game with your opponent or a TO and send a question to the GW rules email address.

Exalted and seconded.

It means you can't take more than -2Ld from more than 1 model dying from Butcher Cannon shots.

The addition of saying this isn't cumulative is a tautology, because you already can't stack penalties (or benefits) that have the same name unless that rule says you can. For example, Night Lords legion trait says you can stack it 3 times.

As an aside, the most -Ld you can get out of Night Lords is -7Ld:

-2 from Butcher Cannons
-1 from Raptors
-3 from 3 units of Night Lords being near the target
-1 from Icon of Despair

You can also take the Lord of Terror Warlord Trait to force units near your Warlord to roll twice for morale tests.

Einhart wrote:
It means you can't take more than -2Ld from more than 1 model dying from Butcher Cannon shots.

This may be RAI, but its not RAW.

Einhart wrote:

The addition of saying this isn't cumulative is a tautology, because you already can't stack penalties (or benefits) that have the same name unless that rule says you can.

Wrong. Only aura abilities with the same name dont stack. The same stratagem played multiple times (which is possible) does stack, unless it says otherwise.

Q: Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with identical
aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range.

Einhart wrote:

As an aside, the most -Ld you can get out of Night Lords is -7Ld:

-2 from Butcher Cannons
-1 from Raptors
-3 from 3 units of Night Lords being near the target
-1 from Icon of Despair
.

You forgot spawn.
As an aside to the aside, I think my theoretical maximum across all chaos is -24.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Einhart wrote:

As an aside, the most -Ld you can get out of Night Lords is -7Ld:

-2 from Butcher Cannons
-1 from Raptors
-3 from 3 units of Night Lords being near the target
-1 from Icon of Despair
.

You forgot spawn.
As an aside to the aside, I think my theoretical maximum across all chaos is -24.

Wowsers! Do you mind breaking that down? Colour me intrigued!

 Stux wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Einhart wrote:

As an aside, the most -Ld you can get out of Night Lords is -7Ld:

-2 from Butcher Cannons
-1 from Raptors
-3 from 3 units of Night Lords being near the target
-1 from Icon of Despair
.

You forgot spawn.
As an aside to the aside, I think my theoretical maximum across all chaos is -24.

Wowsers! Do you mind breaking that down? Colour me intrigued!

#breathes in #

-3 max within 6" of night lords
-1 within 6" of an icon of despair
-1 within 1" of Raptors
-2 for a butcher cannon (but need to score a kill)
-1 from the slaanesh power Phantasmagoria (and don't forget Cacaphonic choir, which stacks brilliantly with this.)
-1 within 12" of belakor
-1 within 7" of a Noxious Blightbringer
-1 within 7" of a nurgle daemon with entropic Knell
- 1 within 1" of spawn.
 -2 (degrading) within 6" of Zarakynel
 -1 with 6" of a renegade Knight Atropos
 -1 for Imperium within 6" of a banner of the apostate in a renegade command squad
-d3 on morale test if targeted by the renegade power creeping terror (WC7, range 12")
up to -3 within 9" of a Mutalith Vortex Beast using the Maelstrom of Madness ability.
The traitors Mark renegade knights relic
 -1 within 12" -2 within 6"