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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/02 23:50:47
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
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So, here's a question about the game as it currently stands for Night Lords. Why do you think they are not seen as regularly as other legions? Their trait seems decent in theory trying to effectively turn the moral phase into an extra damage phase. Its unique and an interesting play style but they just do not see any form of play, however we see other legions played much more in droves, so what makes it that (outside of personal preference) other legions are played more than Curzes boys of terror? What makes it within the context of external game balance makes them as much a popular choice in comparison to other codex's and sub-factions and even internally within it's own codex in comparison to, say, Alpha Legion?
Now I have my own thoughts and theories (in which I may explain more in detail as a comment within the thread) but I wish to withhold that info for now just to see how many responses correlate to my own theories just to see if my ideas are confirmed, and I'm not going crazy with writings on the wall and a tin foil hat being worn at all times.
So what's your thoughts? Genuinely interested to know.
Cheers to all comments.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 00:09:14
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Morphing Obliterator
The Void
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Their problem isn't so much their trait, it's that marines simply aren't good in general. The Chaos lists that are successful focus on cultist hordes, which need fearless and so are going to be BL or IW. If Marines were good, NL might have more of a role.
That said, anti morale mechanics like the NLs exist for a bunch of armies and don't see much play for any of them. This is because the whole morale system just didn't end up mattering much this edition. It's meant to be a counter on hordes, but most armies that actually deploy horde sized squads (20+) have ways around it. It can knock an extra model or two off other units, but it's basically always better to have some other trait that's more reliable.
It seems like Fear based and other anti leadership builds should be a factor in the meta. They clearly intended it to by giving these mechanics to almost every codex. But that just isn't a thing in the meta. Same thing with armies that can do stuff like advance and fire without penalties. Mechanics like that are in almost every codex, but those builds just don't matter because melee isn't that great, and if you're a shooting army you are probably back line deploying anyway and you don't need the mobility.
A lot of the problems of not being able to efficiently kill hordes seem like they should have been helped by morale, but it just doesn't matter enough.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 00:10:31
Always 1 on the crazed roll. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 00:10:13
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant
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It's because so many things can just ignore morale, their stratagem isn't incredibly good (alpha legion currently just GET -1 to hit), their warlord trait is okay but not the best, and they have virtually nothing special to them.
Their play style that i've seen is stacking leadership reduction with raptors and nurgle units, but honestly that's a casual gimmick at best.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 00:27:52
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Pretty much.
Moral debuffing just isn't THAT valuable right now due to what the meta is.
Single-model units are immune to moral anyways, a single horde unit can be CPed to be immune.
It has uses mind you, but it would mostly end up as just throwing a few more casualties here and there, rather than stacking up for gamebreaking effects.
NOW, if raptors are getting a price drop, I think NL might get much more valuable.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 00:30:39
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
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vaklor4 wrote:It's because so many things can just ignore morale, their stratagem isn't incredibly good (alpha legion currently just GET -1 to hit), their warlord trait is okay but not the best, and they have virtually nothing special to them.
Their play style that I've seen is stacking leadership reduction with raptors and Nurgle units, but honestly that's a casual gimmick at best.
Interesting ideas, could you be specific into what ignores morale? I think I know what you speak of but I just want to know that if what were both thinking of correlates?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 00:35:22
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You can pay, what, 2cp to ignore morale for a unit?
So let's say you're playing a 2000 point game against... Idk, orks. You put all your -leadership shenanigans next to an ork boy squad and whittle it down to 10 boys. Your leadership shenanigans and the models they've lost would cause the squad to wipe without much extra effort.
The opponent knows this. He also knows that if the ork boy squad sticks around for another turn, you're going to have to devote more firepower to actually killing it.
So he spends 2cp, auto-passes morale. Your entire faction trait and all of the effort you put in to making it work is completely nullified.
Or you can play literally any other legion trait and get more out of it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 00:35:43
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Morphing Obliterator
The Void
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The Warp Forge wrote: vaklor4 wrote:It's because so many things can just ignore morale, their stratagem isn't incredibly good (alpha legion currently just GET -1 to hit), their warlord trait is okay but not the best, and they have virtually nothing special to them.
Their play style that I've seen is stacking leadership reduction with raptors and Nurgle units, but honestly that's a casual gimmick at best.
Interesting ideas, could you be specific into what ignores morale? I think I know what you speak of but I just want to know that if what were both thinking of correlates?
Orks have their Mob rule, Tyranids have Synapse. Guard are 10 man squads that are probably getting wiped if you attack them anyway (and are just screens, so they are there to die.) Cultists have fearless from Abbadon or Iron Warriors. That covers the main horde units of the game.
Then of course, anybody can spend 2 CP to ignore it with a stratagem.
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Always 1 on the crazed roll. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 00:44:17
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Well, the fault is the attempt to piledrive combo it.
And combo moral breaks have the easy answer with 2CP, even if you don't have some sort of immune source.
The -useful- way to NL, in my head, is as an afterthought in a fast-moving CC focused CSM army that hits eveywhere with many small assaults to spread the extra moral casualties around.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 11:54:24
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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Morale was pointless last edition because everybody was fearless or had ld 9 - 10 and it's often pointless this edition, as everybody but CSM is still fearless or has leadership 8-10  or simply uses squads so small that morale doesn't even come into play.
Against my armies ( DG, Nurgle Daemons, CSM) I could see Night Lords being rather good. But I have anti-morale buffs, too, so let's see who runs first  .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 11:59:54
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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They'd be a lot more useful if they had the ability to take Raptors as troops like last edition.
Then they'd be even more useful if they made Raptors themselves useful. The fact they don't have Vet stats is insulting for their price point.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 12:25:10
Subject: Re:What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The issue isn't so much with Nightlords anf more with the general interactions of 8th edition.
Their is a number of mechnics that reward MSU and few rewards for going for Maximum Unit size, especially beyond 1 or 2 units where moral can be mitigated.
Also the few codex's where taking multile maximum size units is expected generally have been given a get out of the moral phase anyway as GW has learned that players realy dislike being punished twice for being wiped of the board.
It's probably part of why hoards are undercosted and elites are overcosted, elites pay for that moral immunity in stats hordes get it as a special rule ie cheap.
The moral rules are better than they have been but loosing 1 extra ranger firewarrior even marine in a 5 model unit is well who cares many other armies would have just done 5 casualties anyway.
Not to mention just straight up shooting people off the table is far more consistently reliable than moving X units into range to stack modifiers to make them fail a dice roll if you can force enough casualties.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 14:32:04
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Stoic Grail Knight
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As others have said, Night Lord's main problem is that there are too many ways to void out their leadership debuff, and they need to be really close to the enemy for it to work. They also don't unlock unique force organization (like World Eaters or Emperor's Children) and you are left with a pretty mediocre legion. Many armies have buff characters which make them immune to moral entirely- Chaos themselves have the Iron Warriors Warlord Trait and Abandon for instance. All armies have access to spending 2 CP to auto pass the moral check. So when it comes down to it, the Night Lords trait just doesn't have the consistency it needs to make a difference at the critical point. Black Legion is seen because Abaddon holds them together with his potent aura. Moral Immunity and re-roll all hits, in addition to being a cqc boss. Alpha Legion is seen because -1 to hit is still the most powerful legion trait amongst the generic codexes Emperor's Children is seen because it unlocks Noise Marines as troops. World Eaters are seen because they unlock Zerkers as troops. Night Lords are stuck without unlocking any potent special characters or force organization upgrades and having a worse generic legion trait than Alpha Legion. Still Night Lords are of course more potent than Word Bearers... but... eesh. That said, if you really wanted to play the leadership game though, consider pairing your Night Lords with Slaanesh and Tzeentch Daemons. Some of their psychic powers pair extremely well with the large leadership debuffs that Night Lords can put out. Namely for Treason of Tzeentch and Cacophonic Choir, which both get amplified by the debuffs Night Lords can provide. You want to ruin somebodies day? Park a Nurgle Icon Night Lords Raptor Squad (-3 leadership by itself) next to their fancy Mary Sue character upgraded Imperial Knight, and cast Treason of Tzeentch on it. lol
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/03 14:33:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/04 07:21:24
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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akaean wrote:As others have said, Night Lord's main problem is that there are too many ways to void out their leadership debuff, and they need to be really close to the enemy for it to work. They also don't unlock unique force organization (like World Eaters or Emperor's Children) and you are left with a pretty mediocre legion. Many armies have buff characters which make them immune to moral entirely- Chaos themselves have the Iron Warriors Warlord Trait and Abandon for instance. All armies have access to spending 2 CP to auto pass the moral check. So when it comes down to it, the Night Lords trait just doesn't have the consistency it needs to make a difference at the critical point.
Black Legion is seen because Abaddon holds them together with his potent aura. Moral Immunity and re-roll all hits, in addition to being a cqc boss.
Alpha Legion is seen because -1 to hit is still the most powerful legion trait amongst the generic codexes
Emperor's Children is seen because it unlocks Noise Marines as troops.
World Eaters are seen because they unlock Zerkers as troops.
Night Lords are stuck without unlocking any potent special characters or force organization upgrades and having a worse generic legion trait than Alpha Legion. Still Night Lords are of course more potent than Word Bearers... but... eesh.
That said, if you really wanted to play the leadership game though, consider pairing your Night Lords with Slaanesh and Tzeentch Daemons. Some of their psychic powers pair extremely well with the large leadership debuffs that Night Lords can put out. Namely for Treason of Tzeentch and Cacophonic Choir, which both get amplified by the debuffs Night Lords can provide. You want to ruin somebodies day? Park a Nurgle Icon Night Lords Raptor Squad (-3 leadership by itself) next to their fancy Mary Sue character upgraded Imperial Knight, and cast Treason of Tzeentch on it. lol
The last time I played my NL's mono list was a few weeks ago. It was a fluff based choice since my opponent was playing marines fluff. Normally I don't run more than a detachment and mostly under 500 points. And when I do its to support My 1ksons. And the reason in part is said above^^^.
But to answer the question there are several reasons.
1) Marines are bad.
2) The CSM codex, much like the loyalist codex, does not give chapter tactics globally across the codex. This would go a long way to get more people to play the legion if it were fixed.
3) Alpha Legion, Abb's BL, WE and Emps are all far better choices.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/05 00:40:13
Subject: Re:What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Freaky Flayed One
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Who is morale meant to punish the most? Hordes.
Who normally has the most amount of CP to spend? Hordes.
Who is most able to spend 2CP to save a blob of infantry? Hordes.
The morale system in 8th edition is profoundly dumb.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/05 00:41:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/05 00:41:40
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I like that the new Raptor Character, even though he buffs ALL Raptors, is Black Legion. That means you need a whole other detachment for him!
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/05 00:50:50
Subject: Re:What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Morphing Obliterator
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Even if the LD penalty mechanic wasn't effectively useless against Orks, Tyranids, GSC, or just spending 2 CP for auto-pass, the ability is simply too fidgety to be consistently useful.
Most other legion traits don't need to be stacked to become really useful, they just work, without any extra maneuvering or trickery involved.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/11 09:51:00
Subject: Re:What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Furious Raptor
Finland
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Funniest thing in all this is the fact that prior to 8th edition they were advertising that morale would be meaningful in this edition.
But generally I agree, NL (Night Lords) should be played without min-maxing the leadership debuffing. Enemy will always use the 2CP to counter your maxed debuffs if he sees it coming and has CPs available. So in general one should 'spread the pain' and have the debuff chipping off extra wounds all over the place. Better yet, just build army to include the debuffing in somewhat functional manner but pretend it doesn't exist until you play the Morale Phase and maybe you are happily surprised by the effects.
Haarken kind of fits this logic because he provides large 18" aura. But then again we remember Haarken is Black Legion, I'm not sure why do they even bother coming up with this stuff. Sure, fluffwise it's justified to have Black Legion main army which then employs NL detachment as shock troops etc. but for gameplay logic it would have made more sense to have Haarken as NL special character. This way this release would have been direct buff to NL.
However due to how leadership works now and how many armies have rules to circumvent these leadership rules entirely the NL are at very problematic place: If one buffs their leadership debuffing through additional combos (Haarken or similar) or other changes we can end up in situation where the armies which need to burn CP to survive Morale Phase against NL are hindered even more, while the others who can deal with Morale Phase aren't affected much at all. If the Morale Phase was more meaningful in general, instead of forced fluff aspects like currently, the NL could act as sort of CP Denial/CP Burn army archetype. This CP Denial aspect would even do justice to some of the fluff where NL are described to target and disrupt enemy command structures (so communication system disruption and decapitation strikes etc.), the structures which the CPs, Command Points, quite literally represent. In current state NL have been reduced to generic scary psycho marines and nothing else, which is kind of lazy in my opinion.
As of kind of design idea on CP Denial archetype, one could reach fluff-to-gameplay balance by granting the assumed 'Morale Durable' armies a cheaper 1CP spammable (more than once per phase or similar) army-specific stratagem to pass Morale checks. Or alternatively some 2CP/3CP army-specific stratagem that makes one automatically pass all the checks in Morale Phase. And then get rid off all the general 'We ain't doing no morale phase' rules of certain armies.
Generally I feel good balance would be that all the army/faction specific rules should be atleast vaguely functional in every matchup, instead of binary 0 (doesn't work) or 1 (works, total domination) situations. For example if we had 2 armies that are mainly melee-focused armies, it would be bad design if their matchup together was completely one-sided i.e. one side's melee-mechanics/gimmicks totally render the other side's mechanics useless. This would be bad rock-paper-scissors design, which is just unfun considering how time intensive this hobby is.
The conspiracy theorist in me is still convinced that 'pure CSM army' as a gameplay concept is a running gag, based on the fluff to some level, to imply and prove that CSM in general are a joke and can't get anything done. Old, Bitter Renegades in their Twilight, fighting for something that never existed, which in other words is nothing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 10:02:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/12 00:29:35
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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I play my Night Lords with the alpha legion trait because stealth should have been their thing. In the infamous 3.5 codex, book they had the Stealth Adept veteran skill.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/12 02:14:20
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Basically, only Necrons really care in any way about morale.
Space Marines, Tyranids, Orks, etc. basically ignore it through their special rules.
Imperial Guard, Sisters, etc. ignore it by coming in small enough squads that the losses to morale basically do nothing meaningful.
Ergo, the Night Lords are kind of trying to fill a niche that doesn't exist.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 02:15:17
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/12 04:59:15
Subject: What happened to the Night Lords? (Gameplay/Meta question).
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Focused Fire Warrior
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I like the cp burn concept, and acknowledge that it would be absolutely infuriating to many.
What if...This unit inflicts a Dreadful score of 1 to opponents engaged in close combat with it (raptors/reivers) up to a maximum of 3. When a unit is destroyed but before the last model is removed roll a d6, if the result is equal to or less than its DREADFUL score the unit's owner loses a command point.
Night Lords trait adds the same but instead of "with it", "with allied units within 6inches". I think some morale mods should remain unchanged or increased rather than being dreadful, like NL+Nurgle icon+raptor is too much stacking.
I phrased it so that units fleeing or killed by pistols or killed by melee all trigger it. Do you think this ability would unfairly target CC based opponents?
If NL got raptor troops would that be too much?
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