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 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm not sure what's going on with the formatting there. But.

Theft isn't piracy. Both are still illegal in a lot of places. Just pointing out that pirating something doesn't make someone a thief. It makes them a digital pirate. The terms have meaning, and pirating isn't just a nickname for "digital theft", it's a legal term for the crime being committed as is theft. Theft can also be committed digitally. But that's not what you are talking about here. It's important to separate the two. Calling piracy "theft" or using the terms interchangeably, is always factually incorrect.

I was under the impression that a digital pirate was the one providing the material, and that the buyer was someone buying off the black market. Not a thief, but someone who is knowingly acquiring stolen goods.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm not sure what's going on with the formatting there. But.

Theft isn't piracy. Both are still illegal in a lot of places. Just pointing out that pirating something doesn't make someone a thief. It makes them a digital pirate. The terms have meaning, and pirating isn't just a nickname for "digital theft", it's a legal term for the crime being committed as is theft. Theft can also be committed digitally. But that's not what you are talking about here. It's important to separate the two. Calling piracy "theft" or using the terms interchangeably, is always factually incorrect.

I was under the impression that a digital pirate was the one providing the material, and that the buyer was someone buying off the black market. Not a thief, but someone who is knowingly acquiring stolen goods.

You're right, and that's what I was trying to say, sorry

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm not sure what's going on with the formatting there. But.

Theft isn't piracy. Both are still illegal in a lot of places. Just pointing out that pirating something doesn't make someone a thief. It makes them a digital pirate. The terms have meaning, and pirating isn't just a nickname for "digital theft", it's a legal term for the crime being committed as is theft. Theft can also be committed digitally. But that's not what you are talking about here. It's important to separate the two. Calling piracy "theft" or using the terms interchangeably, is always factually incorrect.

I was under the impression that a digital pirate was the one providing the material, and that the buyer was someone buying off the black market. Not a thief, but someone who is knowingly acquiring stolen goods.

You're right, and that's what I was trying to say, sorry

No problem, I was actually seeking clarification, just clumsily.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Well I'm just not going to pay GW to fix something in a product I've already paid for, so what am I supposed to do?

There is no implied warranty for the product. You're just making an excuse to justify your actions. The book still "works" as is.

To be fair, many of these books don't "work" anymore after a Chapter Approved, as you can't participate in tournaments using the information contained within them.

But on the other hand, I don't see Chapter Approved as a mandatory purchase unless you're interesting in the expansion content (for example, I've got a preorder in for the LE to get the Sisters cards), because the point changes are available through crowdsourcing.

Right. they don't work for tournament matched play, but they still work.

Right. The car doesn't move, but you can still sleep in it, so it still works.

 Mmmpi wrote:

I was under the impression that a digital pirate was the one providing the material, and that the buyer was someone buying off the black market. Not a thief, but someone who is knowingly acquiring stolen goods.

How would it be stolen goods, if no physical or digital object was stolen from the "victim"?

Oh I misunderstood what he was saying. Yeah someone who gets pirated material isn't getting stolen goods. (I thought he was saying theft involves stolen goods or something)

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Uhh, I'll call myself a pragmatic realist thankyouverymuch.

Prove to me how the books do not function under the laws of your country.

For the record I often download codexes for research purposes.

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund

The length of time for which it is reasonable for the product to be used is a relevant factor, and will be relevant here.

Having $170 worth of competitive play rules in a book, only last a matter of months before expiring, is going to be grounds for a refund here. Most people would rather keep their books though, it's not like you don't still need them to play, you just need other gak on top of it. The logistics of fixing paperback books are on them, as if every physical copy came with a digital editions and was kept updated, it's more than possible to avoid. It's on them, as it stands I'll invoke consumer law if ever I want a refund.

"it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it"

So you'd have to prove you didn't know about Chapter Approved before purchasing this book, which might be slightly difficult since GW made that very public early on and it was out before many of the books are now.

Regardless I agree about making points free.

That's one condition. There are multiple. You don't have fill all of them, just one of them. Also, unless that disclaimer about upcoming Changes rendering the book prone to expiring and no longer being the currently played ruleset, is attached to the product on their store, the onus is on them to prove you knew it, not the other way around, as it is their responsibility to make sure you are aware of this as a customer. And for obvious reasons that will be nigh impossible for them to prove.

Australia's consumer laws are really good. You can basically push through a refund on anything even remotely shady at all. It's basically the reason Steam had to add refunds to the steam store.

So why don't you become our digital hero & push the subject? Be the one to get GW to clearly label their books so that all will know up front that rules are subject to change via future products. You could achieve eternal fame....

Look, half the people here will look down on the other half as criminals and anarchist and socialists and whatever.

Half will look down on the other half as corporate enablers who never have enough of being hosed by big business. And that's where it ends.

Reemule wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:

Blows my mind when people try to justify downloading copies of stuff for free. You are stealing, and it doesn't matter how you try to justify it. Just own up to it.

Yes Sir! and all you Speeders line up over there, and Jaywalkers over there, and the kids that Stole candy bars over there, and "you smoked what? New line behind this guy"


I'm trivializing your statement cause its shows a inability to see all sides of the issue.

Feel free to trivialize all you like my friend. I really don't care. You can't shame me into a different opinion. Theft is theft. There isn't a grey area. It doesn't matter "why" you are stealing. The reason doesn't change the action.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Look, half the people here will look down on the other half as criminals and anarchist and socialists and whatever.

Half will look down on the other half as corporate enablers who never have enough of being hosed by big business. And that's where it ends.

Why do we have to look down on one another? How about people just have different opinions and move on with our day? Does it have to be that hard? I'll still play a friendly game with people who don't buy the books, and frankly it's none of my business how they get their books. That's between them and their moral code.


Really, we should all be getting back to the thread topic. I think we all went WWAAAYYYYYY off the path here.

dyndraig wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

I was under the impression that a digital pirate was the one providing the material, and that the buyer was someone buying off the black market. Not a thief, but someone who is knowingly acquiring stolen goods.

How would it be stolen goods, if no physical or digital object was stolen from the "victim"?

You can steal information. The information being exchanged only has entertainment value, but it's still been stolen and still information.

I think whining about people pirating is a far greater crime than the actual theft.

Manufactured outrage is boring.

Never said I was outraged, only that it's being distributed illegally.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Right. The car doesn't move, but you can still sleep in it, so it still works.

A poor comparison. The car drives on city roads just fine. It doesn't work on the highway.

I guess we'll just go back to editions where GW doesn't make point changes. Then we won't have anything to complain about.

I'm all for free points, but the arguments to get there by way of claiming you didn't get what you wanted seems disingenuous at best.

I think it'd be best if we moved back to the original topic now.
Ta.

On the original topic..

I think GW loses so many sales to piracy as it is, that them including a free digital copy with a print book would neither help or hinder their business model.

It might gain them some good will even.

OK, does GW really lose money due to piracy? Really?

If someone read a pirated copy of say, codex CSM and says "Heyz these guys sound cool! I wanna get in on this! " then buys some CSM miniatures and builds an army, what did GW lose? What was "stolen" from them?

If someone reads a pirated codex and\or rules and says "This is the suxx! " and doesn't get into 40k, he simply saves money on something he would not like. GW lose a sale? Tough. The guy sampled it and didn't like it, why should he pay a ton of money to see if he likes it?

If a guy gets a pirate codex and uses non gw figs because he'd never pay what gw wants for figs and would never have bought them anyway, again GW loses nothing. Other 40k players who did buy stuff may get another opponent t to have fun with. Unless they're dicks who won't game with a "thief". Again GW losses nothing.

Some of the more erudite authors and publishers definitely see piracy as just a weird form of free advertising.

Also consider how the RPG market exploded when WotC made D&D 3rd edition basically open source freeware. In addition to being a massive success for the parent company, the influx of players was also able to support a whole industry of legal third party products, which in turn created more interest in the system and everybody won.