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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 17:56:27
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As much as I could read them, they appear to say:
Liberators 1CP
Space Marine Stratagem
Use this stratagem at the start of the fight phase. Pick an indomintus Crusade unit from your army. Until the start of your next turn each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack made by a model in this unit, that attack inflicts 2 hits to the target instead of 1.
Target Sighted 1CP
Space Marine Stratagem
Use this stratagem at the start of your shooting phase. Pick a veteran Intercessor unit from your army. Until the end of the phase Stalker Bolt Rifles that member of the use are armed with gain the following ability. This weapon can target a character even if it not the closest enemy unit,. If you roll a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, it inflicts a mortal wound in addition to its normal damage.
Veteran Intercessors 1CP
Space Marine Stratagem
Use this stratagem before the battle begins. Pick and Indomintus Crusader Intercessor squad and to be a Veteran Intercessors. This squad gains the VETERAN keyword for the direction of the battle. In addition add 1 to the Attacks and the leadership characteristic of the unit for the duration of the battle.
Bolt Storm 1CP
Bolt Storm
Use this Stratagem at the start of your shooting phase. Pick a veteran intercessor unit from your army. Until the end of the phase unit bolt rifles that shoot at ½ range automatically hit? I can’t read some of the words in this one.
My Thoughts..
So an Intercessor Sarge with a Power fist, and the Veteran Intercessor Stratagems has 4 attacks. Thats something. Snipers is cool. Getting autohits is always cool. I can't tell if its just for the shooting phase, or if you can use it to cause some overwatch issues.
Source material
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 17:58:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:05:01
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Interesting...
Nothing massively powerful there. The sniper one will be very good in certain niches though, for removing a squishy character. But Stalkers aren't very good normally, so I don't know how much it'll see play.
I don't think it's enough to make people take Intercessors if they weren't already, but for those of us taking them just because we like them it's pretty cool.
Wish Reivers could be Veterans.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:08:14
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Damsel of the Lady
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Stux wrote:Interesting...
Nothing massively powerful there. The sniper one will be very good in certain niches though, for removing a squishy character. But Stalkers aren't very good normally, so I don't know how much it'll see play.
I don't think it's enough to make people take Intercessors if they weren't already, but for those of us taking them just because we like them it's pretty cool.
Wish Reivers could be Veterans.
What I am interested to learn is if Deathwatch can use this, because their Intercessors are already pretty good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:09:53
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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My first thought was "Wow, now I can burn a CP every turn to make Stalker Bolt Rifles and Grenade Launchers as good as they should be right out of the box! Thanks GW, you [expletive] hacks!"
Then I calmed down a bit and realized that without knowing what other bonuses are attached to being an Indomunus Crusade unit it's impossible to judge how good these actually are.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/03 18:20:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:10:08
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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I'll try these at least once if they work on Deathwatch Intercessors. Auto-hitting Stalker bolters targeting characters with Vengeance rounds (for -4 AP) dealing an extra mortal wound on a 5+ (from whatever the +1-to-wound HQs stratagem is called) is way too many CP to be effective (one to make them Veterans, then four more to make the shot), but pull that out of your ass and remove every Guard Officer you can see and it'll definitely be funny. (It probably won't actually work given that a Deathwatch Primaris Kill-Team isn't an "Intercessor Squad".)
And +1 Attack on an Intercessor squad has to be one of the most pointless things I've ever seen. Getting them in melee with anything bigger than Guardsmen is a tremendous waste of potential; sure, you can make it a bit harder to tarpit them with Conscripts/Cultists, but usually in 8e they'll get wiped out by battle cannons from the other side of the table long before that becomes an issue.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:11:31
Subject: Re:Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Neat, fluffy and I see nothing over-powered. Expensive though.
1CP to make your detachment....1CP to make a unit Veterans...then 1CP to "snipe" characters. That ain't cheap. I think that's a very suitable list of small stratagems that will benefit the ailing Marines.
Marines could use all the help they can get - and of all the stratagems, these seem logical and not terribly overpowered. In some instances they do encourage larger squads (as do most stratagems) and that would actually mean that marines might actually benefit from ATSKNF. Good stratagems is a way to move armies from min-maxing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:16:13
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Audustum wrote: Stux wrote:Interesting...
Nothing massively powerful there. The sniper one will be very good in certain niches though, for removing a squishy character. But Stalkers aren't very good normally, so I don't know how much it'll see play.
I don't think it's enough to make people take Intercessors if they weren't already, but for those of us taking them just because we like them it's pretty cool.
Wish Reivers could be Veterans.
What I am interested to learn is if Deathwatch can use this, because their Intercessors are already pretty good.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was Codex Space Marines only. My Dark Angels may well be excluded. If anyone gets excluded it'll be Deathwatch though!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:17:31
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I have no doubt it will not be shared by Deathwatch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:22:33
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I need to know more about what makes a unit a veteran.
If its like the Imperial Fist one, with 1 CP to make the detachment a I.C vet, then it might be interesting. Also there is another stratagem, it might be really good.
I'm interested to see how this goes. And the also how much intercessors cost after the CA. If they are much lower, in the 15-16 range, this might be pretty good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 18:41:08
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Well for what it's worth a veteran intercessor sergeant with a power fist belonging to the new boys who get another hit on an unmodified 6 (assuming they can use this detachment) is a mini character which is cute.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 18:41:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:17:58
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Deathwatch vets with stalker bolt rifles sniping characters. lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:23:58
Subject: Re:Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Whilst I appreciate that they're trying to make the Stalkers better, and this is a flavourful stratagem, I really don't think it is even remotely worth it. 1 CP + 1 CP more per turn to make them do what the Scouts do for free... I think I'll pass.
Veteran Intercessors seem very solid otherwise. Of course they completely overshadow the Reivers now. I really don't understand why they want Reivers to be completely useless. Of course they already started this by giving the Intercessor sergeants access to better melee weapons whilst the Reiver sergeants lack that option, but this is really the final nail on the skullboys' coffin. And I am really not fan of these sort of unit upgrades costing CPs instead of just points in the first place. Even though I'm an ardent soup supporter, incentivising allying in IG for cheap CP so that I can literally make my marines better seem wrong...
Also, this is a WYSIWYG hell. What do I do with the markings? Do I give my Intercessor veteran markings now?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:28:16
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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These are clearly labeled Space Marine Stratagem.
Deathwatch stratagems are clearly labeled as Deathwatch Stratagem.
Unless something upcoming says that Deathwatch can use Spacemarine Stratagems, it doesn't seem as likely that your going to see this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:28:46
Subject: Re:Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Crimson wrote:Whilst I appreciate that they're trying to make the Stalkers better, and this is a flavourful stratagem, I really don't think it is even remotely worth it. 1 CP + 1 CP more per turn to make them do what the Scouts do for free... I think I'll pass.
Veteran Intercessors seem very solid otherwise. Of course they completely overshadow the Reivers now. I really don't understand why they want Reivers to be completely useless. Of course they already started this by giving the Intercessor sergeants access to better melee weapons whilst the Reiver sergeants lack that option, but this is really the final nail on the skullboys' coffin. And I am really not fan of these sort of unit upgrades costing CPs instead of just points in the first place. Even though I'm an ardent soup supporter, incentivising allying in IG for cheap CP so that I can literally make my marines better seem wrong...
Also, this is a WYSIWYG hell. What do I do with the markings? Do I give my Intercessor veteran markings now?
Buy more and scrounge Crux Terminatus power armour pauldrons?
To me Reivers in the normal Marine book were never that worth it; they could go lots of places but an AP-1 bolt pistol and three S4/AP0/D1 melee attacks or two bolter shots and two melee attacks couldn't do enough damage to make a meaningful contribution to the game. Giving Intercessors an extra attack doesn't change the fact that Reivers can barely kill Guardsmen in melee (3+/3+ into a 5+ armour save gives you a glorious 30% chance to deal a wound, three attacks per model and your Reivers are still killing fewer than one Guardsman each).
Special-issue ammunition in the Deathwatch book makes them playable, but still only just; I feel like they need special weapons or special melee weapons or something else that you care about delivering to unexpected places on the enemy flank before anyone's going to care about them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 19:29:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:36:06
Subject: Re:Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Sure, that's not a problem. It is just that if you want proper WYSIWYG this sort of 'upgrade at the beginning of the battle those units you want' thing really doesn't work. So the question is whether I want to build specific models only to be used with this one formation.
To me Reivers in the normal Marine book were never that worth it; they could go lots of places but an AP-1 bolt pistol and three S4/AP0/D1 melee attacks or two bolter shots and two melee attacks couldn't do enough damage to make a meaningful contribution to the game. Giving Intercessors an extra attack doesn't change the fact that Reivers can barely kill Guardsmen in melee (3+/3+ into a 5+ armour save gives you a glorious 30% chance to deal a wound, three attacks per model and your Reivers are still killing fewer than one Guardsman each).
Sure. So why not give an option to make them veterans too? (And give their sergeants access to melee weapons.) It is insane that a shooty unit gets melee upgrades while a melee unit doesn't. It is just a shame that new, really cool looking, models are pretty much unusable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:37:59
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Reemule wrote:These are clearly labeled Space Marine Stratagem.
Deathwatch stratagems are clearly labeled as Deathwatch Stratagem.
Unless something upcoming says that Deathwatch can use Spacemarine Stratagems, it doesn't seem as likely that your going to see this.
More to the point they're also clearly labeled "Intercessor Squad". Deathwatch don't actually have "Intercessor Squads", they have "Fortis Kill Teams". Different unit, see. Now if we get a stratagem that's labeled "Deathwatch Stratagem", is called "Veteran Fortis Kill Team", and says "Choose one Fortis Kill Team from your army..." (Not sure 3A will make Aggressors less crap in melee, but we could try it and see.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:38:10
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Well a few things to note is that Reivers and stalkers might see a buff or points drop so that may help. As is though yeah I don't see stalkers being worth it. 2 extra points per model on top of having to pay for the CP tax is not so hot. Then if you want to get the most out of the CP you need a 10 man squad which is a bad idea. Reivers are always going to be dumpster tier until they are given the ability to actually kill something in melee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:43:59
Subject: Re:Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Crimson wrote:
Sure, that's not a problem. It is just that if you want proper WYSIWYG this sort of 'upgrade at the beginning of the battle those units you want' thing really doesn't work. So the question is whether I want to build specific models only to be used with this one formation.
How do you distinguish your Chapter Masters from your Captains? Same problem. You have to either go into the battle expecting to use this pre-game stratagem every game, or have different models prepped if you want to use the stratagem, or give your Intercessors squad markings and say "the squad with (distinguishing feature) are Veterans this game", and in any case GW really ought to just make these upgrades in the army list rather than pre-game stratagems.
To me Reivers in the normal Marine book were never that worth it; they could go lots of places but an AP-1 bolt pistol and three S4/AP0/D1 melee attacks or two bolter shots and two melee attacks couldn't do enough damage to make a meaningful contribution to the game. Giving Intercessors an extra attack doesn't change the fact that Reivers can barely kill Guardsmen in melee (3+/3+ into a 5+ armour save gives you a glorious 30% chance to deal a wound, three attacks per model and your Reivers are still killing fewer than one Guardsman each).
Sure. So why not give an option to make them veterans too? (And give their sergeants access to melee weapons.) It is insane that a shooty unit gets melee upgrades while a melee unit doesn't. It is just a shame that new, really cool looking, models are pretty much unusable.
I don't think Reivers are supposed to be a melee unit; they look like they're supposed to be analogous to Scouts as a harassment/forward-positioning unit, they're just bad at it for all the reasons Scouts are and can't be cheap backfield units the way Scouts can. That said I'd love useful melee weapons on Reivers, I'd get to use my Primaris pseudo-Assault Marines conversions for something other than just "These are carbine Reivers, ignore the melee weapons".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:44:16
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Tibs Ironblood wrote: Reivers are always going to be dumpster tier until they are given the ability to actually kill something in melee.
I think giving them an extra attack and a power fist to the sergeant might have achieved that! But those were given to the Intercessors instead! Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, and I hate that too. But that's one extra model, instead of several squads.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 19:46:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:53:38
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Crimson wrote: Tibs Ironblood wrote: Reivers are always going to be dumpster tier until they are given the ability to actually kill something in melee.
I think giving them an extra attack and a power fist to the sergeant might have achieved that! But those were given to the Intercessors instead!
One powerfist doesn't really help; I find that at the kind of pricepoint Space Marines are going for a melee unit that works in 8e has to have 3+ attacks per model and a multi-damage/ AP-2/high-Strength attack on every model. Sticking one powerfist on the Sergeant on top of that veteran stratagem gives you four attacks hitting on 4+ that have any chance of doing anything for the whole squad, while everyone else is stuck with their puny knives; five Reivers changed as you've suggested go from killing ~4-5 Guardsmen (under their current statline) to killing ~6 Guardsmen. Spending a command point and an extra twelve points on the powerfist, you die just as fast, are slightly better at engaging multi-wound targets (your powerfist is still hitting on a 4+, because you're a Space Marine so you're locked to WS 3+ and the -1 to hit), and you're still not taking Reivers because you've made them more random/less reliable/more expensive (since you're now heavily reliant on than 9+ charge roll out of Deep Strike) and they still can't really kill anything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:55:18
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Been Around the Block
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AnomanderRake:
You are incorrect on multiple points concerning the Deathwatch. Vengence rounds max at AP -3 and while they are narratively "Fortis Kill Teams" the unit name is "Intercessors".
Do double check the codex.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:58:11
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Crimson wrote: Tibs Ironblood wrote: Reivers are always going to be dumpster tier until they are given the ability to actually kill something in melee.
I think giving them an extra attack and a power fist to the sergeant might have achieved that! But those were given to the Intercessors instead!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, and I hate that too. But that's one extra model, instead of several squads.
Four attacks at s4 ap - is the equivalent of a 7 point ork boy in 20+blob. They're still going to maybe kill two guardsmen each a turn and do virtually no damage to even a t4+3+ body. They're just bad and even a power fist on the sergeant can't save them. Make their knives ap-1 base, drop their points by 2 and then we can talk.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 19:58:26
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Crimson wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, and I hate that too. But that's one extra model, instead of several squads.
Oh. If you're planning on doing it to a bunch of squads all you have to do is go all-or-nothing; either "my Intercessors are all veterans this game" or "none of my Intercessors are veterans this game", and play a modernist Raptors-style Chapter that doesn't give veterans/sergeants massively visible alternate paint schemes/giant pauldrons of shiny eagle doom that just scream "Hey! Snipers! Shoot the guy in the red hat/with no helmet, he's in charge!" Or go with "these guys are veterans because they've been out on campaign for a long time and haven't bothered to paint all their hats red", or say "the red hats and the shiny eagle pauldrons are parade dress, we go into combat in plain gear most of the time."
If you're not worried about distinguishing "these guys have the Veteran upgrade, these guys don't" within one army there are plenty of ways around that. Automatically Appended Next Post: Qui-Gon Jinn wrote:AnomanderRake:
You are incorrect on multiple points concerning the Deathwatch. Vengence rounds max at AP -3 and while they are narratively "Fortis Kill Teams" the unit name is "Intercessors".
Do double check the codex.
I just did and you are indeed correct; I didn't have it in front of me when I made that post. I don't use Stalker bolt rifles outside Kill Team, and the -3 cap is all normal bolt rifles can get to.
Though I just checked some of the other Astartes books and both the unit name and the keyword for Deathwatch Intercessors is "Intercessors" rather than "Intercessor Squad" the way it is in the other Marine books, so you could certainly get screwey about semantics and call them 'different units'. Not sure why you'd need to since they're Troops and the Rule of Three isn't an issue (and that's usually the only thing that cares about having unique unit names).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 20:04:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 20:05:05
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As we don't know what all the other premises are, its not going to be something where people are getting the worth it/Not worth it right.
Overall, I like these options. Some of them might turn out to be worthless. Some of them might turn out to be the next thing EVERY body does.
I like the idea of the Sniper rifles, with Gman, Fishing for Mortal wounds on people. Hopefully Stalker's get cheaper. And Intercessors also.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 20:05:36
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Four attacks at s4 ap - is the equivalent of a 7 point ork boy in 20+blob. They're still going to maybe kill two guardsmen each a turn and do virtually no damage to even a t4+3+ body. They're just bad and even a power fist on the sergeant can't save them. Make their knives ap-1 base, drop their points by 2 and then we can talk.
A point drop, sure. However, it is a bit weird that you dismiss an extra attack while clamouring for AP -1 because mathematically the extra attack is better against Guard and eaqual against marines... And of course if the Sergeant gets special melee weapons having AP on the base weapon does nothing while the extra attack does. Automatically Appended Next Post: AnomanderRake wrote:If you're planning on doing it to a bunch of squads all you have to do is go all-or-nothing; either "my Intercessors are all veterans this game" or "none of my Intercessors are veterans this game", and play a modernist Raptors-style Chapter that doesn't give veterans/sergeants massively visible alternate paint schemes/giant pauldrons of shiny eagle doom that just scream "Hey! Snipers! Shoot the guy in the red hat/with no helmet, he's in charge!" Or go with "these guys are veterans because they've been out on campaign for a long time and haven't bothered to paint all their hats red", or say "the red hats and the shiny eagle pauldrons are parade dress, we go into combat in plain gear most of the time."
If you're not worried about distinguishing "these guys have the Veteran upgrade, these guys don't" within one army there are plenty of ways around that.
Not if your chapter has a specific way to mark veterans (as many do) and you're OCD about WYSIWYG.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 20:07:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 20:07:41
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Crimson wrote: Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Four attacks at s4 ap - is the equivalent of a 7 point ork boy in 20+blob. They're still going to maybe kill two guardsmen each a turn and do virtually no damage to even a t4+3+ body. They're just bad and even a power fist on the sergeant can't save them. Make their knives ap-1 base, drop their points by 2 and then we can talk.
A point drop, sure. However, it is a bit weird that you dismiss an extra attack while clamouring for AP -1 because mathematically the extra attack is better against Guard and eaqual against marines... And of course if the Sergeant gets special melee weapons having AP on the base weapon does nothing while the extra attack does.
I forgot to put in the ap-1 and point drop on top of an extra attack. That's my bad.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 20:09:08
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I forgot to put in the ap-1 and point drop on top of an extra attack. That's my bad.
Oh! That makes more sense!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/03 20:18:08
Subject: Indomintus Crusade Formation Stratagems.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Crimson wrote: Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Four attacks at s4 ap - is the equivalent of a 7 point ork boy in 20+blob. They're still going to maybe kill two guardsmen each a turn and do virtually no damage to even a t4+3+ body. They're just bad and even a power fist on the sergeant can't save them. Make their knives ap-1 base, drop their points by 2 and then we can talk.
A point drop, sure. However, it is a bit weird that you dismiss an extra attack while clamouring for AP -1 because mathematically the extra attack is better against Guard and eaqual against marines... And of course if the Sergeant gets special melee weapons having AP on the base weapon does nothing while the extra attack does.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote:If you're planning on doing it to a bunch of squads all you have to do is go all-or-nothing; either "my Intercessors are all veterans this game" or "none of my Intercessors are veterans this game", and play a modernist Raptors-style Chapter that doesn't give veterans/sergeants massively visible alternate paint schemes/giant pauldrons of shiny eagle doom that just scream "Hey! Snipers! Shoot the guy in the red hat/with no helmet, he's in charge!" Or go with "these guys are veterans because they've been out on campaign for a long time and haven't bothered to paint all their hats red", or say "the red hats and the shiny eagle pauldrons are parade dress, we go into combat in plain gear most of the time."
If you're not worried about distinguishing "these guys have the Veteran upgrade, these guys don't" within one army there are plenty of ways around that.
Not if your chapter has a specific way to mark veterans (as many do) and you're OCD about WYSIWYG.
I think "But now I need to buy twice as many Intercessor squads so I can represent any possible combination of Veteran and non-Veteran Intercessors with the appropriate models!" is a point where being OCD about WYSIWYG stops being reasonable, honestly. More to the point GW isn't going to write rules to accommodate that kind of attitude because that isn't their core audience; they're pushing the game more casual because growing the market is proving wildly successful for them.
And if you're so concerned about Veteran/non-Veteran WYSIWYG I'm sure GW would be ecstatic to sell you 30-40 more Intercessors. Maybe you could magnetize the heads so (using Ultramarines as an example) you can swap from blue helmets/red sergeant helmets to white veteran helmets on the fly?
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