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Chapter Approved not enough to get GK out of the gutter. Here's why.

1. Power armor is still terrible this edition, and with most armies getting discounts on special and heavy weapons across the board, CA actually left power armor GK in a worse spot than before.

2. Our terminators are still too expensive. The problem is we are paying a premium for force weapons in an edition where they aren't very useful.

3. Regular smite helps, but it won't be enough, there are still tons of strong anti psyker tools in the meta. Thousand sons, tryanids, Eldar and assassins all have a lot of deny capabilities. And do get the most out of the smite upgrade, you need to take a lot of squads in power armor, a unit that is still too weak overall.

We suck, and will continue to suck. What hurts the most is how we were told CA was going to be major for GK, but other armies fared far better.

Oh look, another GK thread.

If you read the background the GK are a force that is just dedicated to fighting daemons only. It is an exclusively an anti daemon army. It has no business ESA fighting tau, necrons, orks,
e tc.

People saying the GK should be good against Orks might as well say a lascannon should be good against mass infantry. It's not meant to fight mass infantry, it's mean to bust tanks and kill monsters, period

GK are meant to fight daemons, period. They should not be fighting Orks.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
If you read the background the GK are a force that is just dedicated to fighting daemons only. It is an exclusively an anti daemon army. It has no business ESA fighting tau, necrons, orks,
e tc.

People saying the GK should be good against Orks might as well say a lascannon should be good against mass infantry. It's not meant to fight mass infantry, it's mean to bust tanks and kill monsters, period

GK are meant to fight daemons, period. They should not be fighting Orks.

Yes but that's a very silly justification. See a lascannon isn't an entire army, its one weapon within an army. You won't just take lascannons to the fight and no army is limited to just that one single weapon. Therefore yes the lascannon is rubbish against massed infantry, but then you'd be bringing bolters and such to deal with the infantry.

Grey Knights is an entire army not one weapon.

Furthermore it would be utterly stupid to suggest that an entire army can only face off fairly against one other specific army opponent. It is insulting to GK players to even suggest that idea. Sure the lore says one thing, but the lore is only a story and setting the serves the fluff side of the game. Or are you going to further argue how tyranid players should be painting thousands of gaunts and marine players can only play with one tactical squad?


As for the CA changes, like any points change and rules shake up its often best to let the dust settle a bit and practice and get some games under belts and see how things are before proclaiming doom and gloom or celebration.

In their codex they fight everything, at least as lore goes. They have super powerful oracles that know in advance where an important battle to the fate of humanity is going to happen, and sends them there in advance. So while a normal sm chapter or IG regiment would take maybe years to get to a planet, which may already be taken over or destroyed, GK arrive at the right time. In the lore at least.

Also, just saying, I really, REALLY hate anti-X factions.

It's not good for balance, at all. If GK are well-balanced against the rest of the armies AND have bonuses against Daemons, it's not fair to Daemons players when they face GK.

If GK are well-balanced against Daemons with their bonuses, they're weaker than everyone else-which isn't fair to them!

I'm fine with the fluff having them be Daemon hunters. I'm fine with their preferred playstyle being good against Daemons. But don't add mechanical bonuses.

Honestly it just seems like this is the consequence of the faction bloat. The fact that we're somewhere between mono factions and weird age of sigmar grand alliances also doesn't help balancing.

Maybe if GK got some abilities to reduce invul saves it would give them an edge, a bit more of an identity as daemon/elite killers and justify high costs. Otherwise they're just trying to do everything and being outclassed. CC like knockoff BA, shoot like overpriced SM, elite like mini Custodes. They have lots of psykers, so maybe tweaking those powers could help?

Simple point changes might eventually bring them in line, but most likely would just push out one of the other factions due to the overlap of elite power armor armies.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
If you read the background the GK are a force that is just dedicated to fighting daemons only. It is an exclusively an anti daemon army. It has no business ESA fighting tau, necrons, orks,
e tc.

People saying the GK should be good against Orks might as well say a lascannon should be good against mass infantry. It's not meant to fight mass infantry, it's mean to bust tanks and kill monsters, period

GK are meant to fight daemons, period. They should not be fighting Orks.

The third edition codex had justifications printed in it for why Daemonhunters would fight any of the other armies, including other Imperium factions.

If I recall, the GK Omnibus (which was admittedly pretty terrible) had Justicar Marysue Whatshisname killing basically at least a few of everything at one point or another.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, just saying, I really, REALLY hate anti-X factions.

It's not good for balance, at all. If GK are well-balanced against the rest of the armies AND have bonuses against Daemons, it's not fair to Daemons players when they face GK.

If GK are well-balanced against Daemons with their bonuses, they're weaker than everyone else-which isn't fair to them!

I'm fine with the fluff having them be Daemon hunters. I'm fine with their preferred playstyle being good against Daemons. But don't add mechanical bonuses.

Daemons have bonuses against GK quit virtue-signaling.

 Quickjager wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, just saying, I really, REALLY hate anti-X factions.

It's not good for balance, at all. If GK are well-balanced against the rest of the armies AND have bonuses against Daemons, it's not fair to Daemons players when they face GK.

If GK are well-balanced against Daemons with their bonuses, they're weaker than everyone else-which isn't fair to them!

I'm fine with the fluff having them be Daemon hunters. I'm fine with their preferred playstyle being good against Daemons. But don't add mechanical bonuses.

Daemons have bonuses against GK quit virtue-signaling.

By bonuses you mean one stratagem, and that's STILL BAD GAME DESIGN.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, just saying, I really, REALLY hate anti-X factions.

It's not good for balance, at all. If GK are well-balanced against the rest of the armies AND have bonuses against Daemons, it's not fair to Daemons players when they face GK.

If GK are well-balanced against Daemons with their bonuses, they're weaker than everyone else-which isn't fair to them!

I'm fine with the fluff having them be Daemon hunters. I'm fine with their preferred playstyle being good against Daemons. But don't add mechanical bonuses.

Daemons have bonuses against GK quit virtue-signaling.

By bonuses you mean one stratagem, and that's STILL BAD GAME DESIGN.

You mean the stratagem that means you auto win vs grey knights who already lose turn one t ok guard?


Also you dont design them with bonuses to a certain faction, you make them designed so that they counter what that faction usually builds, with only a few flavor buffs that target demons.

 Jaxler wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, just saying, I really, REALLY hate anti-X factions.

It's not good for balance, at all. If GK are well-balanced against the rest of the armies AND have bonuses against Daemons, it's not fair to Daemons players when they face GK.

If GK are well-balanced against Daemons with their bonuses, they're weaker than everyone else-which isn't fair to them!

I'm fine with the fluff having them be Daemon hunters. I'm fine with their preferred playstyle being good against Daemons. But don't add mechanical bonuses.

Daemons have bonuses against GK quit virtue-signaling.

By bonuses you mean one stratagem, and that's STILL BAD GAME DESIGN.

You mean the stratagem that means you auto win vs grey knights who already lose turn one t ok guard?


Also you dont design them with bonuses to a certain faction, you make them designed so that they counter what that faction usually builds, with only a few flavor buffs that target demons.

You're... You're not even disagreeing with me.

I don't think GK should have bonuses against Daemons or vice versa, because that makes proper balance impossible.

For the record, GK do indeed suck right now. No doubts about that.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, just saying, I really, REALLY hate anti-X factions.

It's not good for balance, at all. If GK are well-balanced against the rest of the armies AND have bonuses against Daemons, it's not fair to Daemons players when they face GK.

If GK are well-balanced against Daemons with their bonuses, they're weaker than everyone else-which isn't fair to them!

I'm fine with the fluff having them be Daemon hunters. I'm fine with their preferred playstyle being good against Daemons. But don't add mechanical bonuses.

Daemons have bonuses against GK quit virtue-signaling.

By bonuses you mean one stratagem, and that's STILL BAD GAME DESIGN.

You mean the stratagem that means you auto win vs grey knights who already lose turn one t ok guard?


Also you dont design them with bonuses to a certain faction, you make them designed so that they counter what that faction usually builds, with only a few flavor buffs that target demons.

You're... You're not even disagreeing with me.

I don't think GK should have bonuses against Daemons or vice versa, because that makes proper balance impossible.

For the record, GK do indeed suck right now. No doubts about that.

Nono, I'm saying they should be better against demons, but in ways that dont read +1 something against demons

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, just saying, I really, REALLY hate anti-X factions.

It's not good for balance, at all. If GK are well-balanced against the rest of the armies AND have bonuses against Daemons, it's not fair to Daemons players when they face GK.

If GK are well-balanced against Daemons with their bonuses, they're weaker than everyone else-which isn't fair to them!

I'm fine with the fluff having them be Daemon hunters. I'm fine with their preferred playstyle being good against Daemons. But don't add mechanical bonuses.

Daemons have bonuses against GK quit virtue-signaling.

By bonuses you mean one stratagem, and that's STILL BAD GAME DESIGN.

You mean the stratagem that means you auto win vs grey knights who already lose turn one t ok guard?


Also you dont design them with bonuses to a certain faction, you make them designed so that they counter what that faction usually builds, with only a few flavor buffs that target demons.

You're... You're not even disagreeing with me.

I don't think GK should have bonuses against Daemons or vice versa, because that makes proper balance impossible.

For the record, GK do indeed suck right now. No doubts about that.

And I agree that factions should not have bonuses against each other, but right now the real issue isn't being addressed so forgive all the players who really get tired of hearing "GK have bonuses against Daemons" when right now they just want to play the game.

Okay-allow to me rephrase.

So long as GK have substantial bonuses against Daemons (not in playstyle, in outright rules) they CANNOT be balanced. They will either be weak to everyone except Daemons, or balanced against everyone and overpowering against Daemons.

For what it's worth, I'm able to crump GK with my Daemons, without using that strat. So yes, I know FULL WELL that Grey Knights are hot crap right now. But at least part of the reason is that GW sees "They have all these bonuses against Daemons!" and responds with "We need to make them cost more because of it," even though that doesn't help against 95% of armies.

Edit It's sufficiently off-topic Imma make a new thread for it.

Find it here.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, just saying, I really, REALLY hate anti-X factions.

Which is why Deathwatch is so good (designwise). They're the ALIENHUNTERS to go with Grey Knights' DAEMONHUNTERS

But besides the flavour stratagems (1 anti-alien stratagem for each xeno) they have nothing else. Their bonuses are "tactical" to help give the feeling of special forces. But not useless.

(Imagine Deathwatch was only reroll 1s to wound vs XENO) or +1 To Wound stratagem was only vs XENO)

Tbh, until Grey Knights get a codex that reworks them from the ground up. They'll be gak as they have Anti-X built into the foundation of their codex. As well as every unit doing the same job as the others.

Custodes are the new GK. I wonder who will replace the golden boys in 9th though. Maybe Cawl finds a way to create Ogryn-sized space marines. Remember, bigger is better.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Custodes are the new GK. I wonder who will replace the golden boys in 9th though. Maybe Cawl finds a way to create Ogryn-sized space marines. Remember, bigger is better.

I have reliable rumor sources that tell me that GW will be releasing a new faction next year that is "overcompensator marines" a faction of space marines that consists of two secundus marines standing on each others shoulders and wearing a large power-trenchcoat.

They've been described to me as "The KFC double-down" of space marines and all their units will be either a thing-on-a-thing or a thing-in-a-thing. Centurions are basic troops as they're the only suits of power armor that don't make the marines feel emotionally vulnerable near other new marine factions.

Other units they have will be Drop Pod Pods, Dreadnought Dreadnoughts (when their dreadnoughts are slain in battle the ruined husk of the dreadnought is entombed in a dreadnaughtier dreadnought) and new Hurricane Albatross flyer transport/gunship/bomber/fighters.

 Overread wrote:
...Grey Knights is an entire army not one weapon...

The core problem can still be traced back to the 5e Codex, where some bright spark who shall not be named said "Hey, let's take this 3e book, nerf the statlines of the melee unit, and stretch it until we can call it a Codex!".

Grey Knights aren't an army, and they shouldn't be an army. They don't have the arsenal or the flexibility to function independently; they don't have the weapons to engage anything other than light infantry at range, they're too expensive to field in quantity, and their melee stats are, in a word, trash. GW managed to turn the Deathwatch (one unit in a 3e White Dwarf article) into a full army by giving them the ability to field a number of units with a number of different functions (Kill-Teams, Assault squads, Terminators, Bikes, now Primaris units), the GK have the opposite problem where they've got too many units and only one function, and they're bad at that function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Custodes are the new GK. I wonder who will replace the golden boys in 9th though. Maybe Cawl finds a way to create Ogryn-sized space marines. Remember, bigger is better.

The Grey Knights to make a triumphant return, piloting what can only be described as "Primaris Centurion armour" with a power-armoured Marine in a papoose on the front?