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Weidekuh wrote: The codex feels a bit lacklustre. Especially in the choices departement. I'm confident, that they will expand into new unit/roles for the real codex.
The problem with that tho is that we are playtesting an incomplete codex. Just one more unit with a specific role can change massively the strength and how a codex is played.
So an interesting question for the beta codex is: What (unit) is missing to make the codex more complete without losing its Sister of Battle character in giving it "every" option there could be? - A second troop unit. - "Shieldmaidens" Units with big shields, high defense (still T3) and some kind of protect others ability? - "Archangels" Elite CC units with wings and flaming swords? Only 1 attack but each attack hits every model in contact? - "Witchunters" armed with holy crossbows. Deal extra damage to psykers and demons. (may be a bit unfair to specially get a bonus against demons).
What are your opinions on this? Which slots or army functionality needs some love?
A lot of this codex needs some love. There are several VERY clear holes in the army list at present.
The biggest thing that needs immediate help (besides the Geminae) though, is the current AoF system. Now, the way getting Faith Points, Spending Spending Faith Points, Combo-ing AoFs with stratagems and Convinctions, etc stuff all works together is legitimately very good, very interesting, and very nuanced.
The problem is you go to actually USE a faith point and have to ask yourself 'Is the bonus I get from this even worth the energy it takes to roll this dice?' The answer is usually 'probably not'
Also, Celestine herself got nerfed too heavily. She needs at least some decent flavor rule going forward because right now she's a slightly overpriced Smash Captain.
There's a few good things so far in that codex that I have seen could lead to decent strats.
An eviscerator canoness going up the fields with dominions could be very nice.
Give them divine guidance so that they hit on 2s instead of 3 and pop the Holy Trinity stratagem on those dominions and they are wounding on 2s or 3s (against thoughness 8).
Equip your dominions with 4 meltas and put a combi-flamer on the superior and you've got the requirements for that stratagem down.
You could do the same with retributors, 4 heavy flamers and a combi-melta on the superior and suddently you have heavy flamers that are wounding most infantries on 2s and even land raiders on 4s.
Now if we could use that stratagem more than once per turn, it would be awesome.
How is the Canoness going to follow dominions? Are you footslogging them? Don't footslog them. Also, that's not how that stratagem works. You need three separate MODELS firing the different weapons. The holy trinity setup with 4 meltaguns is actually mathematically worse than just taking 5 meltaguns and using a CP reroll.
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pretre wrote: So, seems like going second is going to be a lot easier for Sisters. Clump up and get a 4++ on all your vehicles? sounds decent.
edit: Removed the cover question
This is a legitimately pretty good strat...the only problem you run into is that the vehicles themselves are fairly underwhelming. I've seen suggestions and had the thought myself of doing a large blob of spider-webbing 4++ 9pt infantry but...gah that sounds so awful to play from either side of the table. Plus, it's better for castling up a Knight list than trying to win as SoB.
Creeping Dementia wrote: So I played 4 games today using the rules for the Beta Codex,I was figuring that because we can't really alpha strike anymore I would put more emphasis on long range firepower, hence the 6 Heavy choices, and took less Seraphim. Also didn't use Repressors cause they are Index and I am trying to just test the Beta Codex. My points might have been off slightly but I'm pretty sure I was within a margin of ~20pts, and my opponents were ok with that. <snip> Well hopefully that helped, I'm a little depressed now. My advice, Index tactics are gone, we have to move on and try to figure out a different way to win. I don't know what that is yet, but I'll keep brainstorming.
Sisters have never been a gunline army so no surprise there. Repressors loaded with Melta Doms were the only thing allowing Sisters to punch above their weight pre Betadex that we still have left so removing them is just going to result in pain and frustration. Retributors need to ditch the hvy bolters and find some space in a Repressor as well, they can no longer look to double-shoot and without a need to use an AoF they might as well just mount up and fire hvy flamers or otherwise from inside a Repressor. Shooty units need to ride Repressors to get close enough to shoot and stay mounted as long as they can. Repentia or melee characters you bring along should probably be riding in Immolators.
Form up your invuln bubble in deployment for going second, perhaps deepstrike Seraphim into hidden spots turn 2 and look to AT turn 3, mount up and roll forward looking to get across the open ground and remember. She who bails, fails. It's going to be just like old times...
This is a very sad thing actually. Melta Doms were just about the only thing going for us in 6th and 7th and when 8th came out and other units were suddenly usable, it was great! Now we're back to Melta Doms only again. My current only real idea for a tournament list is a Min Battalion with 3 immolator/repressor melta doms and 987(ish) points of allies.
Also, for Creeping Dementia, have you tried using Vessels to give the Exorcist+1 to hit also? Because that does actually work and it maths out...bad but better than some other uses of Vessels.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 07:37:18
I could see a blobbed up group of 3++/4++ sisters and tanks advancing up the field first turn, relying on that invo to weather the storm and then spearing off mid field fir objective grabs and vehicles running harassment and distraction to to cover the footsloggers.
Definately going to be an interesting time to see what works and what doesnt.
Exorcists working in concert (hur hur)to focus down large threats at least have a chance to deal some decent damage now. I know the math hammerers will decry otherwise but i know my babies; they too have been disgusted at the previous d3 damage and under performed because of their disgust. Whisper this sweet new thing to them and i know theyre gonna strike with a vengeance and carve glorious destruction...thats right math hammerers, my luck and superstition outweighs your numbers
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 07:45:11
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
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Giantwalkingchair wrote: I could see a blobbed up group of 3++/4++ sisters and tanks advancing up the field first turn, relying on that invo to weather the storm and then spearing off mid field fir objective grabs and vehicles running harassment and distraction to to cover the footsloggers.
Definately going to be an interesting time to see what works and what doesnt.
Exorcists working in concert (hur hur)to focus down large threats at least have a chance to deal some decent damage now. I know the math hammerers will decry otherwise but i know my babies; they too have been disgusted at the previous d3 damage and under performed because of their disgust. Whisper this sweet new thing to them and i know theyre gonna strike with a vengeance and carve glorious destruction...thats right math hammerers, my luck and superstition outweighs your numbers
The issue Exorcists have now(outside of their average output being pretty subpar) is that it's even more impossible to predict what they're going to than it usually is. They have something like a 27% chance to do basically nothing, and a small chance you could overkill a Knight Castellant by 8 wounds with ONE of them. It makes them funny, it makes them better than they were before, but it also makes them insanely frustrating. Sun Tzu once said: "Know your enemy, know yourself, and you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." Well with an Exorcist you know nothin about nothin and need to be afraid of every shooting phase.
The thing you picture is a nice image, but ultimately has some serious flaws. Battle sisters are still T3 and a lot of the best weapons in the game for killing them (Heavy bolters, Assault Cannons, others) won't actually hit that 4++ invul. Also the bubble is so small that you get infantry OR vehicles, not usually both. Even if you could do both, a 4++ isn't enough to weather the storm in this era. It could work, but it wouldn't be weathering the storm before cleverly rushing off to take valuable objectives, it would be 'pray you die the turn AFTER the game ends.'
My take on what works and what doesn't right now? Dominions work. Allies work. The rest...kinda doesn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 07:59:24
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
For me 3CP to give my army a buff is worth it, im not talking about 2-3 units, im talking about 6-7 units, also if gaining that +1 to hit or the +3" will win me the game, then it will always be worth it. SoB are not Custodes, they are not SM, we dont get all those captains, and uber buffs, for us to get them shouldnt be the same style of cost as Custodes/SM. I also play with about 18-20 HB's and 24-30 SB's so yes, being within 6" is easy, especially if im against Orks, Nids, or DG, armies that are moving closer to you every turn. Dont forget, you only need 1 model within the 6" range.
At this point its hard to say what is good and what isnt with all the other point drops from everyone Else, If Necrons become meta, its a completely different game.
Also BSS are suppose to be T3, but in 8th T3 vs T4 isnt that big of a deal like it used to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 08:03:59
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
For me 3CP to give my army a buff is worth it, im not talking about 2-3 units, im talking about 6-7 units, also if gaining that +1 to hit or the +3" will win me the game, then it will always be worth it.
SoB are not Custodes, they are not SM, we dont get all those captains, and uber buffs, for us to get them shouldnt be the same style of cost as Custodes/SM. I also play with about 18-20 HB's and 24-30 SB's so yes, being within 6" is easy, especially if im against Orks, Nids, or DG, armies that are moving closer to you every turn. Dont forget, you only need 1 model within the 6" range.
At this point its hard to say what is good and what isnt with all the other point drops from everyone Else, If Necrons become meta, its a completely different game.
Also BSS are suppose to be T3, but in 8th T3 vs T4 isnt that big of a deal like it used to be.
Vessels is limited to within 6" of a character. It will hit EXACTLY the same the same number of units as any other Aura ability, including the Chapter master aura. I 6-7 units is the BASELINE I assumed you would be getting before you tried to use the stratagem at all. Being able to use it on different character is a slight buff over the other stratagem, but in all likelihood you'll just use it on the same Canoness every turn. There are some fringe cases where you might have two clumps big enough to be worth it but...honestly probably not.
'If the ability will win me the game it will be worth it' What if they're part of the reason you didn't win before that? They clearly won't win you the game the vast majority of the time. It's entirely likely that something you could/should have gotten INSTEAD of those abilities would have won the game more easily. If you had brought allies with better stratagems, you would have likely won the game easily and not needed the extra 3+ move or +1 to hit. If they hadn't made the AoFs at all and instead every unit had gone down 1ppm, there is a strong possibly that that slight reduction in points would have been be FAR more impactful than those abilities.
Not being the same as the other armies doesn't mean you should be be worse. 18 Heavy bolters means you either aren't playing Matched play or have at least 6 Battle Sister Squads equipped with heavy bolters. Either way, that's...not an ideal loadout. You're paying almost 900pts(assuming you also want the 4++ and reroll AoF) and 3CP in the setup you described and it's pretty lacking in firepower compared to what other armies are going to do for the same investment. Even with Vessels and the Canoness rerolls you're only doing about 17 wounds to marines(only 13 to ravenguard) with the heavy bolters and 8 wounds with the stormbolters and another maybe 5 or so with the rest of the bolters. Don't get me wrong, you'll absolutely mulch through hordes, but other armies can do the same thing without needing half their army to hug each other in the center of the board.
You're also very vulnerable to charges. The first time something makes it into charge range, you're going to lose that whole block because of how stuck together they have to be to benefit from Vessels. And with only Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters and the unit being its own chaff...it's likely to be more of a sitting duck than a firebase. Custodes Jetbikes would close you down and kill you fairly quickly. Even a single rhino that made it in would likely be able to lock up a fair handful of the squads. Sure, you could 'the passion' at that point but it probably won't help much with Sister's melee stats.
If you go up against a Guilliman gunline...that's probably going to be a problem. Even if you do the 4++ thing you just won't be able to compete with their output. Plus the whole 'Mortal wound bomb' stratagem they can hit your entire army with. Guard will also be quite difficult. Your best matchup is probably CWE but Alaitoc is going to completely counter Vessels basically for free while you still have to blow 3CP per turn. Even then, you can definitely still just fail the Act and not get any benefit at all, which will be a terrific opening for your opponent.
Everyone else got point drops and we pretty much didn't. At the same time they removed an incredibly powerful system for the sake of a mediocre system that doesn't really seem to mesh with the army's toolkit. It doesn't matter who's meta now when just about every army got better and we saw, at best, no significant improvement. Even if you're fine with the new system, it's very hard to argue that it isn't weaker than the old one.
.
It used to be that T3 was wounded on 3s by S4 and 2s by S5. Now we're not wounded on 2+ until S6, which is a +1S buff
T4 on the other hand, USED to be wounded on 3s by S5 and 2s on S6. Now they're not wounded on 2s until S8, which is a +2 buff. So relative to T3, T4 is actually better than it used to be.
ERJAK wrote: You're also very vulnerable to charges. The first time something makes it into charge range, you're going to lose that whole block because of how stuck together they have to be to benefit from Vessels. And with only Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters and the unit being its own chaff...it's likely to be more of a sitting duck than a firebase. Custodes Jetbikes would close you down and kill you fairly quickly. Even a single rhino that made it in would likely be able to lock up a fair handful of the squads. Sure, you could 'the passion' at that point but it probably won't help much with Sister's melee stats.
I would like to hear how he plans to avoid tripointing with that many units in that narrow area. Unit of ork boyz/stealers/slaanesh daemonettes/whatever charges one unit, pile ins, consolidiates, possibly fight again to make this work even more likely and ensures one squad he did not declare as charge target has model surrounded in triangle. Hey presto you have 20+ melee specialists in his firebase that he can't shoot at.
Tau yesterday almost fell for that bunching up in gunline of extra shots and mutual overwatch. Well 30 orks supported by lootas thinning down firewarriors to more manageable numbers meant that I had 78% chance of getting to his dz with untargeatable ork boyz mob.
That's the flipside of crowding in on small base for auras. Makes harder to avoid that one.
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
For me 3CP to give my army a buff is worth it, im not talking about 2-3 units, im talking about 6-7 units, also if gaining that +1 to hit or the +3" will win me the game, then it will always be worth it.
SoB are not Custodes, they are not SM, we dont get all those captains, and uber buffs, for us to get them shouldnt be the same style of cost as Custodes/SM. I also play with about 18-20 HB's and 24-30 SB's so yes, being within 6" is easy, especially if im against Orks, Nids, or DG, armies that are moving closer to you every turn. Dont forget, you only need 1 model within the 6" range.
At this point its hard to say what is good and what isnt with all the other point drops from everyone Else, If Necrons become meta, its a completely different game.
Also BSS are suppose to be T3, but in 8th T3 vs T4 isnt that big of a deal like it used to be.
So the single biggest problem I see with this is that you'll probably be playing a Soritas Castle/Primaris gunline style of game(something that is not interesting) in a somewhat less effective manner.(Probably with an even less fun 3++/4++ Army)
this is a disorganized jumbled mess but I have a few take-aways from my first read through.
So... my understanding is that our army is now a mass of tanks that require celestine and a cannoness with the +1 SoF invul save trait to cross the board in a hyper aggressive manner before engaging with your entire army up close. This seems to fit our fluff... rhinos/immos/melta/stormbolters...
turn 1 move celestine and a cannoness (advance and AoF for +3 inches... possibly using the Vessel ability to get all the tanks behind you to move +3 as well (Vessel works on ALL sororitas models, not just AoF ones). Pop smoke on takes and weather a turn of fire.
Turn 2 should be close enough to engage or repeat turn 1 sans smoke.... use Vessel on dumped out models to hit on 2+ with entire army, screening with tanks to prevent counter assult.
-use arcos/repentia to fight enemies that DO assault.
Notes...
1)arcos near a priest with the strat will be 81 attacks...
2) repentia with bloody rose are str 8 when assaulting/assaulted/charging... and if rumors are true, you can reroll all to hit rolls not just misses near a misstress
3) book of st lucious will extend the vessel strat to 9 inch radius bubble
4) you can't rely on faith in this dex... it plays very different than index
5) Currrent meta is not able to handle multiple T7 models unless the enemy has a castellan... which our 4++ and smoke launchers pretty much shut down. Yes we will lose a few models, but seriously, we basically shut it down.
6) the fight twice act of faith... its hard to get off, but when it works it will be worth it. Consider ebon chalice characters to trigger it near other orders. 4+ with a reroll from 1cp strat is 75% success rate. Not perfect, but not terrible either.
Another viable build is tons of bolter bodies and gunline...
Neat Unit combo:
Seraphim with strat + BA smash captain: deepstrike the seraphim in, shoot a hole in the screen units, then use the strat to move the BA smash captain into the hole the seraphim made. assault 3d6 with a reroll/no overwatch... profit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 10:53:07
superwill wrote: I'll give it a few weeks after the CA and then I'll put together something of a list / petition to gather the general initial thoughts/requests of the community. I'll take it to different parts of the web for a broader range of views and to give everyone an opportunity to share their thoughts. I'll try keep it as concise as possible, but would love to have:
- Ratings and comments for each unit in the codex.
- General comments on the playstyle, strengths, weaknesses and character of the army.
- Ratings and comments for each of the stratagems, Acts of Faith and order bonuses.
- Top 10 suggestions for the new codex, as voted by the community.
I think if we could get a document like that together, with support from a large base of sisters players, that would be a great help to GW and a great step towards us getting the sisters codex we've waited for for over a decade.
For now, I'm also feeling a little bit of hopelessness at the beta codex. I feel like they've somehow added more complexity/"bloat" yet at the same time made Sisters less unique and fun. Not an easy thing to do. It's hard not to just see this as ruining everything I've been training my sisters army for. But I'm choosing to look at this with hope since GW have promised to listen, and this beta codex just gives us a platform from which to speak.
I could get behind something like this. I actually had the thought of doing a 'hot take' on the beta Codex on Sunday that goes through each entry and give my opinion(and some of the opinions here, including a few that might not align with my own). This would also form a template for me to consider my opinion of the rules as we progress.
Hey sorry if I've missed the relevant information in the thread, but just want to check my understanding as I've not seen the large scale leaks. I think I've seen mention of a +1 invulnerable stratagem using the simulacrum, is this an aura or unit only and can seraphrim take one?
Just hoping I can use them as a screen for celestine and use them to escorts some transports up the table giving them a 4++ and maybe vessels for increased movement if I'm flush with CP.
Also does celestine have a fixed warlord trait or can she take the +1 invulnerable warlord trait giving her a +2 aura? It feels unlikely to me but I haven't seen anything to the contrary.
ragnorack1 wrote: Hey sorry if I've missed the relevant information in the thread, but just want to check my understanding as I've not seen the large scale leaks. I think I've seen mention of a +1 invulnerable stratagem using the simulacrum, is this an aura or unit only and can seraphrim take one?
Just hoping I can use them as a screen for celestine and use them to escorts some transports up the table giving them a 4++ and maybe vessels for increased movement if I'm flush with CP.
Also does celestine have a fixed warlord trait or can she take the +1 invulnerable warlord trait giving her a +2 aura? It feels unlikely to me but I haven't seen anything to the contrary.
Seraphim can't carry a Simulacrum Imperilis so they can't use the Sacred Banner of the Order Militant(or whatever it's actually called) Stratagem. I seem to recall the Youtube Video mentioned that Angelic Visage is a 5++ now though.
Cheers for the speedy replies, pity about that. I guess the options for the mobile 4++ are advancing the cannoness and hoping for a decent role, or making a gemini a warlord if they have the character keyword.
Creeping Dementia wrote: So I'm 0-4 with the Beta Codex, which is... discouraging. With the exception of the Ork matchup it wasn't really close either. I'm not a bad player, I tend to win more than I lose, but I won't claim to be a GT winner either.
Skipping repressors is crazy. They are index, but they are FW index which is almost guaranteed not to change even when we get our codex next year. Just use them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll say again that I'm waiting for the book in hand to make some lists and then I'll let you know how I feel.
My gut is that Faith is back to pre-8th levels and that's fine. That's what I dealt with for years. Automatic faith was an aberration that I enjoyed but I knew it wouldn't last.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, detail your games in feedback and provide it to the Beta e-mail. Make it professional and well written with bullet pointed summary at beginning at end and someone might read it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 14:52:32
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Creeping Dementia wrote: So I'm 0-4 with the Beta Codex, which is... discouraging. With the exception of the Ork matchup it wasn't really close either. I'm not a bad player, I tend to win more than I lose, but I won't claim to be a GT winner either.
Skipping repressors is crazy. They are index, but they are FW index which is almost guaranteed not to change even when we get our codex next year. Just use them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll say again that I'm waiting for the book in hand to make some lists and then I'll let you know how I feel.
My gut is that Faith is back to pre-8th levels and that's fine. That's what I dealt with for years. Automatic faith was an aberration that I enjoyed but I knew it wouldn't last..
Couldn't agree more. Repressors are the best transports in the game. Ignoring them is insanity and doesn't give an honest representation to the power level of the army without them.
Auto faith was a refreshing change from 5th/6th/7th and I was hoping it would be altered slightly, but not completely rewritten into the dirt. Compare our system with Guard orders or Eldar Soulburst. It's laughable. You have to build your lists in certain ways to roll high just for bonuses that are negligible.
From what I've read so far, I'm not even factoring in AoF in the construction of my lists. If I occasionally get a bonus on a high roll, neat. But it really doesn't seem worth attempting, especially in a tourney when minutes count.
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I was Nids in 2nd and 3rd. Then I didn't start playing again until I started sisters the last couple months of 5th. My 2" tall Carnifexes might see a table top again someday.
I am going to attempt to get a game or two in this weekend and test this codex.
Once that is done and I will make modifications to the current rules and attempt my own system. This is the purpose of a beta after all.
My take on how Acts of Faith should work.
All of them trigger on a 4+. Can still only be used once per round.
Sergeant provides a +1 to trigger AoF Simulacrum upgrade provides another +1 to trigger AoF Characters get a +1 to trigger their AoF.
A basic sister squad would thus trigger her AoF on a 2+ assuming they paid for the simulacrum. Much more reliable. Ebon Chalice and their further +1 would automatically pass AoF making them very reliable if this is how you want to play them.
Seraphims would still be at most on a 3+ since they cannot get a simulacrum.
Characters would be a 3+ as well
This would also make the dialogus more interesting. Paying 30 points for a re-roll is much more interesting when you have a good chance of making that re-roll if the first dice failed.
Given the current Acts of Faith and how small the boosts are, I do not believe the above is game breaking. If they decide to buff the boosts we actually get from those acts, it would be easy enough to change this from a base 4+ to 5+ to trigger and leave the other bonuses in.
A crafty opponent will try to snipe those bonus giving models and as a player, it means you have to chose between losing the sergeant or taking a meltagun out of a squad. Anything that forces a decision on me, I like.
Looking at how this would impact all the AoF in their current state:
- +3 mov
This is still only +3 move. In no way game breaking, but much more reliable now if you're trying to move a blob of 15 sisters to keep up with the tanks or make a move for an objective.
- Heal or rez one unit
Characters and seraphims would get this on a 3+, same as currently. Units could get this on a 2+ given the proper loadout, but chances are this will likely still be used on a character or possibly a melta dominion that was killed. No way game breaking
- 4+ sv vs mortal wounds
Once again no changes for characters and seraphims. Other units could get this on a 2+ (Ebon chalice automatically), but armies that have access to mortal wound powers will force you to use this and then target another unit with other powers.
- +1shooting diff 4
There are three units that would strongly benefit from this one:
Retributors with heavy bolters. As they tend to stay back, it would be easy to get them to a 2+ by buying them the simulacrum and bumping their squad size. Not as good as the index where they can shoot twice, but they would be very reliable with a canoness supporting them.
BSS Squads with 15 bodies. Having them walk up the field and shoot all their bolters on a 2+ would be a solid fire base. It does have it's issues however with it being a very big target and they are still only bolters for the most part.
Dominion squads with 4 meltas. Their limitation comes in that current tactics for them would it hard for them to get to a 2+ to trigger AoF. Buying an additional body for that simulacrum is something hard to do.
- Double pile in diff 5
Good for characters. Not as good as the index AoF where you fight in before the turn even happens, but much more reliable. Definately good for Bloody Roses that got charged or charged themselves. It would make their conviction bonus, and acts of faith available, more precious.
Since repentias have no sergeants and cannot get simulacrum, they would only get this on a 4+ (ebon chalice 3+) so a dialogue accompanying them would suddently be a good option.
- Pass morale
No changes to seraphims and characters don't care. It would however mean that we could start getting away from MSU. Losing some models would you 15 BSS squad wouldnt mean the rest runs away if you roll that 2+.
I'll give my idea a shot down the road and then send my feedback to GW.
Did they indicate howwe could communicate testing data with them so far?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 19:57:43
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
For me 3CP to give my army a buff is worth it, im not talking about 2-3 units, im talking about 6-7 units, also if gaining that +1 to hit or the +3" will win me the game, then it will always be worth it. SoB are not Custodes, they are not SM, we dont get all those captains, and uber buffs, for us to get them shouldnt be the same style of cost as Custodes/SM. I also play with about 18-20 HB's and 24-30 SB's so yes, being within 6" is easy, especially if im against Orks, Nids, or DG, armies that are moving closer to you every turn. Dont forget, you only need 1 model within the 6" range.
At this point its hard to say what is good and what isnt with all the other point drops from everyone Else, If Necrons become meta, its a completely different game.
Also BSS are suppose to be T3, but in 8th T3 vs T4 isnt that big of a deal like it used to be.
So the single biggest problem I see with this is that you'll probably be playing a Soritas Castle/Primaris gunline style of game(something that is not interesting) in a somewhat less effective manner.(Probably with an even less fun 3++/4++ Army)
I already do that now, i have 130 models on the table.
Tho sometime i play with 3 Shield Captains and take out 30 sisters or so.
Before the Knights came out i play tested it many times in prep for a GT and it did well, for many armies i just ignore some units and went for points, having 8-10 mans in units really helps as you can conga line out easily for auras (I have Diagolus and Canoness for auras).
With most units on cover, 2+ save on t3 100+ models is harder to kill than you think it is, i'm happy for the 6+++ trait, i will test that out the first few games, b.c on 100 models, a 6+++ 16.6 still alive, that 2 entire units left
And i only relayed on Aof for Celestine and a , Seraphim, Dom or Ret unit, having 1 dom or ret shoot twice isnt going to be as strong as 4-6 units gaining +1 to hit IMO, 8 models shooting twice (so an extra 4 HB or SB's), or 40 models adding +1 to hit.
Im very optimistic over all, other than Celestine being Nerfed... IDK what i want to do with her now, i might not take Geminis at all and treat her as an over priced Smash Captain and save 90pts for more models.
I'll play test it starting Next week, but i have a local tournament coming up and i dont want to use beta rules for it, so im playing my DE, the next 3-4 games will be with them for sure, but after that is all sistas all the time!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 22:07:39
I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
To be fair, she's probably gone from being overpowered in 7th to great value in 8th, to now just being "about right." Considering she was one of three or four units in our army that punched above their weight (and every codex has them), I think people are just reeling from her no longer being great value and instead just being serviceable. I don't think she's weaker than she should be, I think she's probably quite balanced now. But nerfs to her and several other of our key units, without really receiving any useful buffs, is going to lower the overall power level of our army.
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
Before she was a tank, now they can kill the geminis and they dont came back easily. She is just as she was in 5th times, a mosquito to get in the way, she isnt strong enough to tie up units, she cant go off alone any more and be effective.
She will be good still, just not that center piece as she was, and i missed that survivability she had. In many ways she is more like a Shield Captain now.
Yeah i'd say she is a shield cap on dawneagle equivalent, sure she will have more "wounds" but at T3 many things will wound her on 2+/3+ compare to 4+/5+ on the shield captains on dawneagles.
I;d rather her str with the sword go down to S5 (so +2) and keep some of the survivability than be Str 7.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 03:30:14
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
Before she was a tank, now they can kill the geminis and they dont came back easily. She is just as she was in 5th times, a mosquito to get in the way, she isnt strong enough to tie up units, she cant go off alone any more and be effective.
She will be good still, just not that center piece as she was, and i missed that survivability she had. In many ways she is more like a Shield Captain now.
Yeah i'd say she is a shield cap on dawneagle equivalent, sure she will have more "wounds" but at T3 many things will wound her on 2+/3+ compare to 4+/5+ on the shield captains on dawneagles.
I;d rather her str with the sword go down to S5 (so +2) and keep some of the survivability than be Str 7.
I like Celestine getting weaker. I hate it, when something is an auto-take. Especially named characters. It's so stupid that every sister army has celestine in it. Every single one! Balancing out Celestine is the right thing to do. Now the army just needs options that make it viable to run the army without her and be fun and viable.
So while playtesting I think it would be very important to play without Celestine too. What is the army missing without her? Is the army playble? If not give your suggestion! I'd hate it if when the codex comes out there is only one way to play sisters, Celestine + other stuff.
Mmmpi wrote: For those of you who've seen the leak.
Do seripham get a +1 to shield of faith, or is their shield of faith a 5+?
If it's the former they might do well as a screen near front of the armored wedge.
It is worded "improve the shield of faith invuls by 1 to a maximum of 3+"
So that's Angelic Visage, and it stacks with Celestine's aura, right? A pack of Seraphim + C is 3+/4++? That doesn't seem too bad... mine often get charged by stuff that would be foiled by that to a degree (Helbrutes they don't finish, etc.)
I want to play with her tho, her is my favorite character, why would i want to play without my favorite character?
If every SM had a named character is that really a bad think? I dont think so, as long as there are more than 1 name character players are playing with (balanced them out i mean), we only have 1 named character, would we not take it?
Every DE play have Urien for Coven as well.
Its fun to play with a character with story, its more fun for the players to have your hero on the table compare to a no named general.
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
Before she was a tank, now they can kill the geminis and they dont came back easily. She is just as she was in 5th times, a mosquito to get in the way, she isnt strong enough to tie up units, she cant go off alone any more and be effective.
She will be good still, just not that center piece as she was, and i missed that survivability she had. In many ways she is more like a Shield Captain now.
Yeah i'd say she is a shield cap on dawneagle equivalent, sure she will have more "wounds" but at T3 many things will wound her on 2+/3+ compare to 4+/5+ on the shield captains on dawneagles.
I;d rather her str with the sword go down to S5 (so +2) and keep some of the survivability than be Str 7.
I like Celestine getting weaker. I hate it, when something is an auto-take. Especially named characters. It's so stupid that every sister army has celestine in it. Every single one! Balancing out Celestine is the right thing to do. Now the army just needs options that make it viable to run the army without her and be fun and viable.
So while playtesting I think it would be very important to play without Celestine too. What is the army missing without her? Is the army playble? If not give your suggestion! I'd hate it if when the codex comes out there is only one way to play sisters, Celestine + other stuff.
No. Celestine has been in every Sisters of Battle list I've ever played. She will be in every Sisters list I play for the rest of my life. I'd rather quit 40k than leave her behind.
I don't need her to be what she was at her best, I played her when she was 135pts and died to harsh language. I just want her to be unique and interesting, which she is not right now.
Also, totally unrelated to the quoted comment:
Vessels of the Emperor's Will on +1 to hit(the clear best use of the ability) costs 3CP(6" range), is an 8% boost over a standard Chapter Master reroll assuming you have a Canoness and no -1s to hit. (It's 3% worse at -1), and can only be used once per turn.
Space Marine's 'Chapter Masters' stratagem (6" range) Costs 3CP and is only 8% worse(or several percent better against Eldar Flyers) than a BEST CASE usage of Vessels of the Emperor's Will. That stratagem lasts the entire game. And literally no one anywhere uses it.
Even accounting for the fact that Vessels can target different characters AND the fact that it can spread other bonuses(paltry as they are. The Passion is almost impossible to use with this for about 2 pages worth of reasons I won't get into right now) it is STILL weaker than a 3CP stratagem, in an army better suited to take advantage of that stratagem, that no one ever bothers to use.
Oh YEAH, I actually totally forgot, Vessels is only active for one PHASE. The chapter master reroll buff is active 100% of the time in both turns! Man AoFs suck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
Smash Captains are T4 and will have a 3++ bout half the time. That means they're likely about as durable as Celestine's poor T3 body and 3 extra wounds. Her damage output is also not not that much better than a Smash Captain's, especially against T8. Also, Smash Captains don't NEED stratagems to excel relative to Celestine, they have stratagems they can use TO excel relative to Celestine.
Even if you're okay with her price point, I would still argue that it's hard to be okay with how dull her rules are now. I love her, and I'll take her forever, but boy are we going through a rough patch at the moment.
It's more like they traded out the Old Milwaukee we had in 6th for a Miller Lite, tbh.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/11 09:02:02
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