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Voldrak wrote: How is everyone planning on playing the index Imagifier?
It's stated as having been removed as a unit in the codex, but there's nothing saying it cannot be taken as an index unit.
It's act of faith rule is also interesting and could possibly be used.
On a 4+ you can do an act of faith on a unit within 6 inch. this is in addition to acts of faith you are normally allowed to do in that turn.
Our restriction on acts of faith right now is that we can only do one of each in a single turn.
If you are allowed to use one in addition to what you are normally allowed, it sounds like it would allow you to use Divine guidance or the Passion on two units if you had a single imagifier and passed the 4+.
You would still need to spend the faith point, but it sounds like more options for us
I would avoid it. They were replaced and it is just an awkward rules interaction that won't be faq'd.
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dracpanzer wrote: Pious didn't make the list of those with the Ministorum keywordthat do not bust your detachment. Since there is a list, and zealot isn't on it...
Yeah, there's a tiny little box in CA of unit keywords that don't break the detachment. I totally spaced this one.
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Got a 2000 point GT coming up in January, and a 1000 point tourney in February. Stretching my mind a little to fit the lower points cost since I usually play at 2000.
1000 point Immolator Spam Battalion – 1000 points
47 HQ – Canoness w/StormBolter, Brazier (2d6 Deny the Witch <6”), WARLORD: Indomitable Belief (5++ Aura)
44 HQ – Missionary w/ Plasma Pistol, Power Maul
75 TROOP – 5 Battle Sisters w/2 Melta, Superior w/CombiFlamer
75 TROOP – 5 Battle Sisters w/2 Melta, Superior w/StormBolter
51 TROOP – 5 Battle Sisters w/3 StormBolters
60 FAST – 5 Dominions w/5 StormBolters
125 HEAVY – Exorcist
125 HEAVY – Exorcist
98 DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Immolator w/Immolation Cannon
98 DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Immolator w/Immolation Cannon
98 DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Immolator w/Immolation Cannon
98 DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Immolator w/Immolation Cannon
Canoness rides with (or runs after rear of transport 11” away) Dominions. Would it be better to provide 5++ bubble to all vehicles at deployment & not Vanguard move the Dominions? Better to keep ‘em all together?
Missionary rides with one of the 2-Melta squads, probably the one with the CombiFlamer (Plasma Pistol synergy with Meltas).
Only 2 Exorcists because at 1000 points the Rule of Three becomes the Rule of Two.
Immolators keep Moving, Advancing & Burning heretics at 12”.
Frowbakk wrote: Canoness rides with (or runs after rear of transport 11” away) Dominions. Would it be better to provide 5++ bubble to all vehicles at deployment & not Vanguard move the Dominions? Better to keep ‘em all together?
You could swap the Brazier for the Book and have her on the line and just scout the doms 9" instead of the full 12"
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Frowbakk wrote: Canoness rides with (or runs after rear of transport 11” away) Dominions. Would it be better to provide 5++ bubble to all vehicles at deployment & not Vanguard move the Dominions? Better to keep ‘em all together?
You could swap the Brazier for the Book and have her on the line and just scout the doms 9" instead of the full 12"
correct me if I'm wrong but your relic choice is not part of your list, its part of the start of the game? or is that only when you take 2+ relics
meaning he could swap the relic depending on opponent.
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MacPhail wrote: Mac's list 2.0: I dropped the Penitent Engine, HB Rets, and the IP Seraphim for some flexibility in points, increased some numbers in the specialized squads, and messed around with multiple detachments to try out a second Order.
Bloody Rose Vanguard
Canoness w/ IP, BoA
5 Celestians, Power Axe
Dialogus
Preacher
Like before, this is an army in three layers. The backline is just Exos and the stock Canoness flanked by SBBSS, with the stock BSS strung out to screen against infiltrators and deep strikers. Up front is a new core group of aura projectors: Warlord Canoness with Brazier, Jacobus, Celestine, and Dialogus giving rerolls to hit, psychic defense, SoF bonus, Ld bonus, and AoF rerolls. Within that bubble to start are the foot Dominions with Stormbolters, a Rhino full of HF Retributors set up for Holy Trinity, and a Rhino full of BSS with Meltas. The Vanguard Dominions do what they've always done. Once the pre-game and turn one push into the center is over, the aura bubble can move up to support one of the extended elements: Meltas, Stormbolters, or Heavy Flamers, depending on how things are shaping up. There are two wild cards: one is a countercharge /support bubble tuned for melee with the Bloody Rose Canoness with BoA, a Preacher, the other Dialogus, and a Celestian squad with a Power Axe; the second is the big Seraphim unit coming from reserve to either harass the enemy backfield or restock one of the aura bubbles with fresh troops.
The power axe isn't available to the Celestian squad, or any other SoB unit, any longer.
Mmmpi wrote: Only get rid of vessels if you're going to make the Acts better.
And make repressors actually part of the codex, not a removal piece.
From how the acts of faith system is designed I am 100% sure they're as weak as they are BECAUSE of Vessels. They designed the whole system, had everything all setup and ready to go. Then somebody had a BRIGHT idea to add a thing that definitely broke whatever that system was. Instead of just ditching vessels though, they ditched the other AoFs trying to make Vessels work.
personally I'm of the mind the Repressor is just too powerful to rightfully exist becuase of dominions and firepoints. if GW put it in the codex i would vote for the removal of firepoints like nearly ever other armored transport. drop the points down to be in line with an up gunned razorback that has a rhino's transport capacity, or give it the chimera treatment where it has a weapons array that only works while a unit is embarked.
also agree 100% Vessels fault for the state that AoF are at now
I do kind of wish to see the strike last but +2 strength act of faith return from back in the day. It's so gimicky but could be fun to swing with S5/6 sisters in a pinch again.
After this beta dex, the repressor is the only reason I haven't shelved my army. Also, instead of punishing good units, make other units better. Give all Rhinos 2 firepoints back.
Thats the thing though, the only thing that makes sisters even remotely viable is OOP forgeworld model being abused with how good melta doms are with fire points to protect them (and literally our only remaining strength now). Which needs to go into the feedback that that is 100% unacceptable. Also doesnt help that the only air support/anti air we had access to the Avenger Strike Fighter which is still in print lost the keyword that let us take it at the start of the 8th. IF GW has to keep in mind the power budget that is the Repressor w/doms just like with Vessels/acts of faith the codex itself will never get its power budget assigned anywhere else. which is mainly why im in favor of squatting the current version of the repressor becuase just like most other OOP models they were squatted out of matched play.
"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost"
Frowbakk wrote: Canoness rides with (or runs after rear of transport 11” away) Dominions. Would it be better to provide 5++ bubble to all vehicles at deployment & not Vanguard move the Dominions? Better to keep ‘em all together?
You could swap the Brazier for the Book and have her on the line and just scout the doms 9" instead of the full 12"
correct me if I'm wrong but your relic choice is not part of your list, its part of the start of the game? or is that only when you take 2+ relics
meaning he could swap the relic depending on opponent.
In most events, they require it to be in the list.
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Thats the thing though, the only thing that makes sisters even remotely viable is OOP forgeworld model being abused with how good melta doms are with fire points to protect them (and literally our only remaining strength now). Which needs to go into the feedback that that is 100% unacceptable. Also doesnt help that the only air support/anti air we had access to the Avenger Strike Fighter which is still in print lost the keyword that let us take it at the start of the 8th. IF GW has to keep in mind the power budget that is the Repressor w/doms just like with Vessels/acts of faith the codex itself will never get its power budget assigned anywhere else. which is mainly why im in favor of squatting the current version of the repressor becuase just like most other OOP models they were squatted out of matched play.
Post-nerf, the only thing that made Sisters even remotely viable was their ability to double move and double shoot, thereby squeezing exceptional performance out of cheap but otherwise lackluster specialist squads (IP Seraphim and HB Rets).
A Repressor with five melta Doms in it is over 230 points. Its damage output against T8 3+/4++ is similar to a Helverin (2.89 for Meltas vs 2..61 for the Helverin vs 3+/4++ Knight), and swingy vs T7 3+/4++ (3.81 or 4.9 in melta range, vs 3.96 for the Helverin), with the Helverin being 50 points, better natural saves, and having the entire board for range.
The Exorcist vs T8 3+/4++ is 2.02, and vs T7 3+/4++ is 2.67. And it's only 125 points, has better natural saves (because T8) and has the entire board for range.
There is no reasonable justification for the Repressor to still be that expensive.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 18:44:51
Thats the thing though, the only thing that makes sisters even remotely viable is OOP forgeworld model being abused with how good melta doms are with fire points to protect them (and literally our only remaining strength now). Which needs to go into the feedback that that is 100% unacceptable. Also doesnt help that the only air support/anti air we had access to the Avenger Strike Fighter which is still in print lost the keyword that let us take it at the start of the 8th. IF GW has to keep in mind the power budget that is the Repressor w/doms just like with Vessels/acts of faith the codex itself will never get its power budget assigned anywhere else. which is mainly why im in favor of squatting the current version of the repressor becuase just like most other OOP models they were squatted out of matched play.
Post-nerf, the only thing that made Sisters even remotely viable was their ability to double move and double shoot, thereby squeezing exceptional performance out of cheap but otherwise lackluster specialist squads (IP Seraphim and HB Rets).
A Repressor with five melta Doms in it is over 230 points. Its damage output against T8 3+/4++ is similar to a Helverin (2.89 for Meltas vs 2..61 for the Helverin vs 3+/4++ Knight), and swingy vs T7 3+/4++ (3.81 or 4.9 in melta range, vs 3.96 for the Helverin), with the Helverin being 50 points, better natural saves, and having the entire board for range.
The Exorcist vs T8 3+/4++ is 2.02, and vs T7 3+/4++ is 2.67. And it's only 125 points, has better natural saves (because T8) and has the entire board for range.
There is no reasonable justification for the Repressor to still be that expensive.
Well, the Repressor does have it's own offense capabilities as well as it can tie up units while the guys inside can still fire out. But I'll all for a points drop.
Thats the thing though, the only thing that makes sisters even remotely viable is OOP forgeworld model being abused with how good melta doms are with fire points to protect them (and literally our only remaining strength now). Which needs to go into the feedback that that is 100% unacceptable. Also doesnt help that the only air support/anti air we had access to the Avenger Strike Fighter which is still in print lost the keyword that let us take it at the start of the 8th. IF GW has to keep in mind the power budget that is the Repressor w/doms just like with Vessels/acts of faith the codex itself will never get its power budget assigned anywhere else. which is mainly why im in favor of squatting the current version of the repressor becuase just like most other OOP models they were squatted out of matched play.
Post-nerf, the only thing that made Sisters even remotely viable was their ability to double move and double shoot, thereby squeezing exceptional performance out of cheap but otherwise lackluster specialist squads (IP Seraphim and HB Rets).
A Repressor with five melta Doms in it is over 230 points. Its damage output against T8 3+/4++ is similar to a Helverin (2.89 for Meltas vs 2..61 for the Helverin vs 3+/4++ Knight), and swingy vs T7 3+/4++ (3.81 or 4.9 in melta range, vs 3.96 for the Helverin), with the Helverin being 50 points, better natural saves, and having the entire board for range.
The Exorcist vs T8 3+/4++ is 2.02, and vs T7 3+/4++ is 2.67. And it's only 125 points, has better natural saves (because T8) and has the entire board for range.
There is no reasonable justification for the Repressor to still be that expensive.
That has more to do with transports in general being overcosted compared to firepower being undercosted. obviously the point cost of the repressor should go back down since the act of faith nerf but im still in favor of it getting squatted or changed for the reasons i stated before.
Exorcists dont turn into 5 melta doms when they are destroyed either, though ill concede the point that when a Repressor gets popped most likely the doms get killed the same turn.
Also not to mention that Armigers and Imperial knights are the stupidest shoe horn unit GW has ever come out with to try and throw mini titans into standard 40k games instead of apoc where they belong. consequence of 40k slowly turning into Epic i guess.
The Exorcist is also horribly unreliable and always has been. but its also the ONLY long range firepower we have outside of heavy bolter rets and a decent destraction carnifex as Sisters has for the most part almost always been mechnized and we need the other threats to keep up target saturation for the enemies Anti tank.
Just keep in mind i havent played much 8E and my sisters have been shelved for the most part since flying circus was a thing awhile back. so im not the best person in touch with the current reality if 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 19:10:19
"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost"
I think you are comparing the wrong things. Dominions aren't fighting for a slot VS Exorcists, but i'll give you that they do have similar roles.
I posted this on B&C the other day as part of a play test report and it seems relevant so i'll repost it here.
I think the status of HB Rets Vs Exorcist should be reevaluated for the fire support role. They do different jobs, yes, but I feel like we have so many options in competition for killing the same stuff HB rets want to kill that the exorcist may well be a viable pick. Especially if you're sacking melta doms for SB doms which seems like a smart move given the value of Blessed Bolts. Still a bit fickle with number of shots but it feels closer to it's 6E roll of cleaning up units that aren't quite dead and focusing down T6 MCs or T7 tanks.
Touching on Melta Doms for a moment, I think they're old hat. They struggled to do there job in Index and even with the additional tools we've been given in Beta they still struggle to do there job. I'm personally thinking about dropping Melta Doms completely.
My thought train on the list build are leading me towards something that looks like: Bloody Rose, Celestine, some Smash Canonesses, a big squad of troops for spaghetti with an upgraded stick for tactical stormsheilds, a couple small squads of troops to fill out detachments, a few Exorcists, a few units of repentia, preacher, mistress, dialogus, a few rhinos and some SB dominions. Vanguard push forward the rhinos pre game while keeping the 4++, doms jump out, repentia and support jump in. Hand+advance the warlord canoness and push forward the rhinos, pop smoke and sit mid field with -1 to hit and a 4++. It would be nice to try to fit in a big unit of seraphim for tactical spaghetti. Maybe sprinkle in some melta on the troops to help prop up the anti tank. Trinity HF Rets are good too but they're a bit unwieldy, they're good when they're used but they don't get to be used every turn.
Drider wrote: I think you are comparing the wrong things. Dominions aren't fighting for a slot VS Exorcists, but i'll give you that they do have similar roles.
I posted this on B&C the other day as part of a play test report and it seems relevant so i'll repost it here.
I think the status of HB Rets Vs Exorcist should be reevaluated for the fire support role. They do different jobs, yes, but I feel like we have so many options in competition for killing the same stuff HB rets want to kill that the exorcist may well be a viable pick. Especially if you're sacking melta doms for SB doms which seems like a smart move given the value of Blessed Bolts. Still a bit fickle with number of shots but it feels closer to it's 6E roll of cleaning up units that aren't quite dead and focusing down T6 MCs or T7 tanks.
Touching on Melta Doms for a moment, I think they're old hat. They struggled to do there job in Index and even with the additional tools we've been given in Beta they still struggle to do there job. I'm personally thinking about dropping Melta Doms completely.
My thought train on the list build are leading me towards something that looks like: Bloody Rose, Celestine, some Smash Canonesses, a big squad of troops for spaghetti with an upgraded stick for tactical stormsheilds, a couple small squads of troops to fill out detachments, a few Exorcists, a few units of repentia, preacher, mistress, dialogus, a few rhinos and some SB dominions. Vanguard push forward the rhinos pre game while keeping the 4++, doms jump out, repentia and support jump in. Hand+advance the warlord canoness and push forward the rhinos, pop smoke and sit mid field with -1 to hit and a 4++. It would be nice to try to fit in a big unit of seraphim for tactical spaghetti. Maybe sprinkle in some melta on the troops to help prop up the anti tank. Trinity HF Rets are good too but they're a bit unwieldy, they're good when they're used but they don't get to be used every turn.
I can see running SB doms instead of Melta but repentia? I know the math on them with OoBR and The Passion kicks out some pretty impressive numbers, but they're still not very good. They die to a stiff breeze even with the 4++ bubble and they're painfully slow. You'll lose half a squad to every overwatch unless you're sacking rhinos and stuff to eat it. Even then, once they hit something your opponent will know what they do and kill them immediately. They're not cheap enough or hard enough to dispense for them to be a good distraction carnifex. Finally, it's not like the rest of the army is that threatening. They'll have 2-3 free turns while the blob slogs up field to pick out the repentia's transport and the repentia to cut off the majority of you blob's total damage output.
I admit it's a break from the norm, but i think that the combination of the Beta Codex and Ro3 has firmly broken our old index meta. You can force it to work but there's no denying that it's lost effectiveness over it's life time. Instead of flogging a dead horse, i'm trying to think about how we can hit the key points of a Mono Tac list from a different angle. As far as repentia viability goes; i do think they're a bit over pointed(that's something we can feed back on), but i think they're more viable than penitent engines and have a close comparison to Khorne Berzerkers rhino rush. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Chaos_Space_Marines(8E)#Khornate_Party_Bus
1 Can I take Objectives?
Yes. Spaghetti and units split off from the blob can grab objectives.
2 Do I have Anti-Mech?*
Exo, Repentia, Smash canoness can hit this point.
3 Do I have Anti-Horde?
Bolters, storm bolters and a butt load of attacks melee attacks.
4 Do I have Anti-MC?
Exo, repentia smash canoness, celestine.
5 Do I have Anti-INV?
Wieght of dice is our only option.
6 Do I have Psyker Defense?
Oh yes.
7 Do I have Redundancy?
Yup, enough overlapping effectiveness.
8 Do I have Anti-Air?
Not really without going outside the codex.
2.1 Do I have Anti-Transports?
Exos hit this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 23:03:01
I can see running SB doms instead of Melta but repentia? I know the math on them with OoBR and The Passion kicks out some pretty impressive numbers, but they're still not very good. They die to a stiff breeze even with the 4++ bubble and they're painfully slow. You'll lose half a squad to every overwatch unless you're sacking rhinos and stuff to eat it. Even then, once they hit something your opponent will know what they do and kill them immediately. They're not cheap enough or hard enough to dispense for them to be a good distraction carnifex. Finally, it's not like the rest of the army is that threatening. They'll have 2-3 free turns while the blob slogs up field to pick out the repentia's transport and the repentia to cut off the majority of you blob's total damage output.
The longer I mull it over, the more I think that this exact situation is why The Passion was changed to be worded the way it is, and why Repentia weren't given a legitimate save (outside of the theoretical situation where they're within aura range of both Celestine and a footslogging WL Canoness).
If you can get your Repentia out of the truck and get to under 4" from their target, you don't actually have to charge into them and lose half the squad to overwatch: you could just The Passion them and have them pile into combat. You wouldn't get the Bloody Rose bonus so they'd put out way less damage, but it'd be a tradeoff for not soaking overwatch from stormbolters or flamers or whatever and putting out zero damage because they all died.
I mean, they're still f-ing awful because they're the cost-equivalent of 27.5 points a piece and will only have a 6+ save 90% of the time, but I can see where the wheels were turning to try and fix them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 23:05:41
I think that's a creative interpretation of the rules, you can't activate a unit in the fight phase unless that unit has charged or is within 1" of an enemy. So you could passion them and then not be able to activate them twice.
I do get what you're saying about the wording on the passion but if it gets used that way they'll just slap on "if a model has charged, was charged, heroically intervened or is within 1" of an enemy" to the act rules. I don't trust them to get that wording right and i can see them breaking it so that it's overly restricted on top of the once per battle round rule.
All of this seems like we're bending too hard on a mechanic GW won't want to break. I suspect a FAQ is coming that will resolve Passion, the Index Imagifier, and Vessels-to-vehicles in a way that favors the rule, not the exception.
Drider wrote: add to that, 4++ and Brazier to vehicles as things i have a feeling about not making it into the future.
The 4++ to vehicles is almost certainly intended, as they were gearing up for Codex Imperial Knights around the same time that this got sent off to the printer, and they certainly had no issues with giving Knights access to a 3++ on the warlord and 4++ on armigers without needing to maintain coherency with multiple support characters.
The fact that all of them read "to a maximum of 3++" seems to imply that they took Angelic Visage stacking on top of that as well.
Brazzer working on vehicles isn't that big of an issue: if you're a psyker facing Sisters, you are going to have to overcome a deny for every single psychic power, your important powers are going to get the equivalent of Agents of Vect'd, and smite spam is going to get reduced by half. That seems to be what they wanted to make Sisters "good" at.
Drider wrote: Bare in mind that as far as knights go you can only get 1 with a 3++ or 2 with a 4++. Potentially we could have a parking lot full of 4++s.
True, but Sisters don't delete entire armies in a couple turns of shooting, like Knights can. Once we have Volcano Cannons on top of Immolators I'll agree the 4++ parking lot needs to be toned down.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
Voldrak wrote: How is everyone planning on playing the index Imagifier?
LOL I can't wait for someone to pull the AoF to fight twice with the old Imagifer rules, proceed to fight twice with no enemy unit around and then look at their opponent with a straight face.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 01:52:04
Voldrak wrote: How is everyone planning on playing the index Imagifier?
LOL I can't wait for someone to pull the AoF to fight twice with the old Imagifer rules, proceed to fight twice with no enemy unit around and then look at their opponent with a straight face.
The original Pink Tide list had three Imagifiers in it specifically for that purpose: Index AoF go off before there is a phase, so there is no stratagem limitation, and The Passion doesn't say "like in the X phase" to create one, so you can Vessel all three tests (they don't count against your Once Per Turn limit, it's in the Imagifier's Simulacrum rules), and proceed to launch 150 models directly into your opponent's army and swing them four or five times each.
I was informed that this will be addressed in a week though, so I have since stopped trying to build around it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 02:28:31
The intro to the Beta Codex literally says "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit..." Anyone trying to use them either didn't read the rules or is going a bit WAAC.
Regarding the repentia vs penitent engine, I want to try sending them together, with arcos, priests, mistresses, dialogi...
Ever since the Witch Hunter dex, I have always seen my force as two armies: a Holy Choir and a Penitent Legion.
In every edition since, the only unit(s) that were oddballs in the dichotomy were the Repentia (and in 8th, the Mistress). In my fluff, Mistresses maintain their status as members of the Holy Choir, but they temporarily leave the chapel with their fallen charges to join with the Priests, who oversee the Penitent Engines and Arcoflagellants that complete the Penitent Legion. They also have access to transports- Rhinos which have been kitted out with spare PE pilots and various spikey bits instead of Immolator parts.
Anyway, when I approach, it isn't just Repentia; it's arcos, PE's, a mistress, a dialogus, a hospitaller, a priest AND the Repentia.
It makes it kinda hard to choose; assuming the support characters are well screened, any of these three units are tough, so which do you target? You can try to divide fire and hope to break multiple squads, but then you run the risk of doing too little damage. Hospitaller/ AoF synergy can be fun on the approach. A mistress could theoretically die, give faith for the martyrdom, be resurrected (AoF), healed by a hospitaller to fight and be martyred again.
I'm even thinking of expanding the Penitent Legion; currently I've got:
Another repentia squad would be a good add because it would contribute faith points if I tack on a character to get it to 10.
The Arco screen is important too, and six models does not an effective screen make; another 14 of those would be nice.
One extra PE would let me field 2x2, but really, who doesn't want to try 3x3 Penitent Engines? If you sent all nine as a block, certainly some would make it; if not, they'd soak a lot of fire, allowing the Repentia, Arcos and all the support characters to get in.
In a competitive game, it will probably still get its ass kicked, but I can't wait to get my hands on CA so I can build it and see. There will never be a better time for weird, off the wall experiments.
If you can get your Repentia out of the truck and get to under 4" from their target, you don't actually have to charge into them and lose half the squad to overwatch: you could just The Passion them and have them pile into combat. You wouldn't get the Bloody Rose bonus so they'd put out way less damage, but it'd be a tradeoff for not soaking overwatch from stormbolters or flamers or whatever and putting out zero damage because they all died.
I mean, they're still f-ing awful because they're the cost-equivalent of 27.5 points a piece and will only have a 6+ save 90% of the time, but I can see where the wheels were turning to try and fix them.
Couldn't you just have their ride assault move in first, and absorb the overwatch for them?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 04:01:40
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alextroy wrote: The intro to the Beta Codex literally says "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit..." Anyone trying to use them either didn't read the rules or is going a bit WAAC.
This feels like another grey area. The text does say it's been removed, but is it saying from the game entirely, or is it only removed from the BetaDex? I'm sure people more interested in it than I can provide arguments either way.
Personally I'm not going to use solo Imagifers, as it seems to be outside the spirit of the play test.
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