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anyone have good use from death cultists, crusaders, or flagellants? I

I have some left over from the old 5th ed. Gk codex that I would like to use.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

I use the Canoness datasheet from the Index with the most recent point costs. CA2017 point cost for eviscerator is still the most recent one for that weapon option. Go read CA2018, p.124, first paragraph. It's very clear. It says basically : «new point values below for a weapon replace old ones». But there's no new point value for eviscerator «below».

Does CA2017 exist anymore? Or was it completely replaced by CA2018 and the reason most things are just relisted with the same point cost as they had in CA2017 (e.g.- Repressor) is because of that invalidation (see: how it works with General's Handbook for AoS)?

I'm a little confused here and would love some clarification too. I posted a list earlier this week and heard a couple of opinions on whether I could run a Celestian Superior with Power Axe. There's never been a model, but I built one back when the Axe of Retribution used to be an item of Sisters wargear. Can I run that model now, and if so, under which rules, and at what point cost?

Can someone confirm for me... The ecclesiarchy battle conclave rule on dca, etc... If I take a vanguard with a priest and 3 units with that rule, then my vanguard isn't filled out right?

What is the benefit for this rule?

 Smotejob wrote:
Can someone confirm for me... The ecclesiarchy battle conclave rule on dca, etc... If I take a vanguard with a priest and 3 units with that rule, then my vanguard isn't filled out right?

What is the benefit for this rule?

I see this as a major oversight. It can be beneficial if you are hurting for space in a Brigade perhaps, but this really needs to be an optional rule. Because I can see several instances where I might want to field a pure "Church" detachment just for the hell of it.

 MacPhail wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

I use the Canoness datasheet from the Index with the most recent point costs. CA2017 point cost for eviscerator is still the most recent one for that weapon option. Go read CA2018, p.124, first paragraph. It's very clear. It says basically : «new point values below for a weapon replace old ones». But there's no new point value for eviscerator «below».

Does CA2017 exist anymore? Or was it completely replaced by CA2018 and the reason most things are just relisted with the same point cost as they had in CA2017 (e.g.- Repressor) is because of that invalidation (see: how it works with General's Handbook for AoS)?

I'm a little confused here and would love some clarification too. I posted a list earlier this week and heard a couple of opinions on whether I could run a Celestian Superior with Power Axe. There's never been a model, but I built one back when the Axe of Retribution used to be an item of Sisters wargear. Can I run that model now, and if so, under which rules, and at what point cost?

Its an Index option on the melee list for 5pts so I assume you can at that cost?

Gonna try out 2000pts army tomorrow against either Orks or Khornates.

 Smotejob wrote:
Can someone confirm for me... The ecclesiarchy battle conclave rule on dca, etc... If I take a vanguard with a priest and 3 units with that rule, then my vanguard isn't filled out right?

What is the benefit for this rule?

It'd help if you were trying to squeeze additional Elite slots into a battalion, but that they didn't make it a MAY ability makes it a detriment 90% of the time you'll encounter it.

It is a bit ironic that they have both made it easy to pack a bunch of Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units into your limited Elites slots, but made it impossible to fill even the minimum requirements of a Vanguard or Brigade Detachment with them.

 MacPhail wrote:
There's never been a model, but I built one back when the Axe of Retribution used to be an item of Sisters wargear. Can I run that model now, and if so, under which rules, and at what point cost?

Ahh yes. All my seraphim sup's had Axes of Retribution and all my BS Superiors had Books of St Lucius. Still do, although they're just decoration now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
It is a bit ironic that they have both made it easy to pack a bunch of Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units into your limited Elites slots, but made it impossible to fill even the minimum requirements of a Vanguard or Brigade Detachment with them.

This is something that should be sent to the FAQ address for the release faq.

Am curious: because battle conclave goes slotless with the preacher, if someone took an auxillary detachment of the preacher (-1cp) could they add in heaps of battle conclave units because theyre slotless?
Cant imagine why youd do that, more of a curiosity and thought exercise.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Am curious: because battle conclave goes slotless with the preacher, if someone took an auxillary detachment of the preacher (-1cp) could they add in heaps of battle conclave units because theyre slotless?
Cant imagine why youd do that, more of a curiosity and thought exercise.

Not the best of sources, but it works that way on battlescribe.

Thought it might be fun to fit my dca and flagellants from once upon a time, but that's a wired rule. I don't own sisters but have those sitting around since they were in the grey Knight codex, and I have priests for my guard list. Some of those behind loads of catahans would be fun

 alextroy wrote:
It is a bit ironic that they have both made it easy to pack a bunch of Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units into your limited Elites slots, but made it impossible to fill even the minimum requirements of a Vanguard or Brigade Detachment with them.

Which fluffwise would be exactly what you'd want to do. I'd imagine a little clutch of clergy running alongside the larger force of armored Sisters, and that same group just as readily attaching themselves to a Guard detachment to bolster the faithful. Seems fluffier than sprinkling them around at random, or worse, getting all gamey in your list building because Preachers are cheap.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Am curious: because battle conclave goes slotless with the preacher, if someone took an auxillary detachment of the preacher (-1cp) could they add in heaps of battle conclave units because theyre slotless?
Cant imagine why youd do that, more of a curiosity and thought exercise.

That's actually pretty clever.

It's also pretty useless, as if you wanted to do that to ally in some pocket arcos to another imperial army they wouldn't be able use their stratagem. Besides the fact aux support don't get access to strats, add to that Trigger Word is keyword <Adepta sororitas> so even if you could make a viable Adeptus Ministorum detachment, the stratagem keyword renders it pointless.

It's still massively silly that 1 HQ Adeptus Ministorum Ministorum Priest and 3 Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave Elite units are a legal Auxiliary Support Detachment (which is supposed to be one unit) but not a legal Vanguard Detachment (minimum of one HQ and 3 Elite Units).

 alextroy wrote:
It's still massively silly that 1 HQ Adeptus Ministorum Ministorum Priest and 3 Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave Elite units are a legal Auxiliary Support Detachment (which is supposed to be one unit) but not a legal Vanguard Detachment (minimum of one HQ and 3 Elite Units).

Yep, completely hate it.

I don't even see what exploit they were trying to block... just keeping us from using cheap Preachers as brigade filler?

It's worse than that.

You can take as many Priests as you're allowed (Rule of Three, etc.) in a detachment. - usually up to three slots filled in the typical 2000 point game.

You can only take one Missionary (and Uriah Jacobus counts) per detachment - for one slot filled.

You may take one (and ONLY one) Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave unit in a detachment without a Priest or a Missionary - for one slot only filled.

Take a Priest or Missionary in your detachment and you're no longer limited to taking just one unit, but then Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units take up ZERO slots in the detachment.

So, to recap:

One by themselves, takes up an Elite slot, and that's ALL you can get.

With a Priest or Missionary in the same detachment, you can get more, but those Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units take up ZERO slots.

The only thing i can think is that 'Man' under arms is not 'Men' under arms.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
I played this list yesterday against a Custodes list (16 bikes) with 3 BA jump pack captains.
An easy win. He was almost table by turn 2. We played the new Maelstrom mission #1.
I played second and use the +1CP stratagem for the whole army. Everything had a 2+/4++ with seraphims at 3++.
In the end, whatever you take besides these leman russ doesn't matter (being the best unit of the game, they palliate the rest).
When you compare a Canoness (with her six s8 ap-4 attacks at 3+ re-rolling 1s) with a custodes guard, for about the same price the Canoness wins out in my opinion (being a character and having an inferno pistol). 3 of them and the fight twice AoF + vessel means 38 attacks (52 with celestine herself)... If only we could negate invulnerable save!

I think the changes to the Beta Codex make Custodes the second easiest matchup we could ask for. The easiest being Grey Knights. When Blessed bolts is capable of turning 51pt infantry into a Custodes buzzsaw and the whole army has a 4++ and large body count, that's not a great situation for a 19 model army to be in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voldrak wrote:
If the changes in the scoring system that came with CA2018 are an indication of where the game is going, the sisters having extremely durable troops that can be fielded in mass will be good for them.

Score the objectives long enough and even if you get tabled in the end, you will still win.

They're not that durable, they're bouyed by being very cheap for the durability they do have. The 4++ is more for stonewalling things like SmashCaptains, Custodes Jetbikes and Daemon princes. Things that have high quality, low quantity attacks. Things like Assault Cannons and even our own arcoflagellents trash battle sisters just a well as they ever have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
Leman Russ in my list instead of Exorcist. Well, each of them killed 2.5 custodes bikes per shooting without luck. An exorcist can kill 1 with luck. I see no reason to take an Exorcist in no match up whatsoever. (Plasma LR are overpowered right now, that's the way it is.)

Plasma Cannons are undercosted (they cost 10 points, and a regular plasma gun costs 11... wtf).

I do not think that LRs are overpowered though, because they essentially don't have a save versus anti-tank weaponry.
They're very glass-cannony, where they're essentially immune to sub-Str5 weaponry, but they pop like a pinata to high strength, high AP weaponry.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

I use the Canoness datasheet from the Index with the most recent point costs. CA2017 point cost for eviscerator is still the most recent one for that weapon option. Go read CA2018, p.124, first paragraph. It's very clear. It says basically : «new point values below for a weapon replace old ones». But there's no new point value for eviscerator «below».

Does CA2017 exist anymore? Or was it completely replaced by CA2018 and the reason most things are just relisted with the same point cost as they had in CA2017 (e.g.- Repressor) is because of that invalidation (see: how it works with General's Handbook for AoS)?

The general's handbook is a bit different because they print the point cost of every unit in the game, so it doesn't matter if it changed or not, what's in the book is the correct value(unless the printing department fs up like they did with Deepkin).

Battle report from yesterday

Tried out the 2000pts army below against Orks (mixture of Deathskulls and Evil Sunz) in one fo the new scenarios from CA2018 – Vital Intelligence, which we both really liked.
(5 objectives spread evenly across table, score 1VP for each at and of each turn, roll randomly at start of each full turn – one objective scores 2 VP (if you roll a 6 all score double – we did not roll that one). No sudden death victory conditions.

Army


Army list


The Game was interesting and swung back and forth – partly as a result of the really good scenario rules which promoted movement and tactical decisions. Orks won 15-14 at the end of round 5 with a single respawn mob left (about 20 out 30 left), Sisters had Celestine (on her first incarnation!), both Gemini, both Exorcists (1 on 1 wound), 2 surviving Immolators (2 and 6 wounds), all three canoness (2 on 1 wound) and about 15 sisters from a mixture of squads.

Battlefield


This is as I recall it but I did not take notes

Having set up first I took the first turn and sent Dominons up the right flank to try and grab another objective, whilst their immolators dashed into the centre to block the killer kanz and burn some boyz. Orks did the same with bikes, scorchers, mega Dredd and a strung out mob of Boyz. We clashed in the centre objective – Immolators rolled very badly and only killed a few boyz but one weathered the Kanz. Ork mobz smashed into two big squads of Sisters killing several in the building and most of the other. Cestine dropped into assist as she was close enough. Ork warboss bounced off another Immolator doing zero damage (My opponent had clicked the wrong relic on battlescribe!), Ork wierdboy too near his mates and perils doing damage to an immolator which explodes and kills him!
Sisters 2VP (sitting on double obj), Orks 4VP

Surviving sisters backed off having used Light of Emperor on one unit with 2 models left to ignore Morale, other units open and cause some damage – again hugely poor rolling – especially from the Exorcists (same whole game). Celestine finishes off the first Ork mob before they can be respawned with her flamer. Melta Dominons and Stormb bolters wipe out bikers and kill all but one Scorcher which charges an Exorcist. Seraphim drop in and shoot a few orks with Burning descent but not enough. Ork Dreadnoughts teleport in and wipe out another immolator and some sisters. Orks continue to advance burning one flanking dominon squad and heavily damaging an Immolator, Melee continues in the building with the orks charging multiple units and grabbing objectives. Warboss charges multiple units including an exorcist and gets a melta to the face, but slays the Missionary.
Sisters 4 VP, Orks 7VP

Again engaged sister back off to allow other units to fire with mixed success, warboss killed. Gemini fly off to try and kill the Mekboy, but bounce off, loosing one. Megadredd fires but fails to damage the Exorcist due to Shield of faith castle in the centre. Last 2 Killer kans assault cannones with relic sword, she survives on 1 wound and kills one. Seraphim shoot and charge the large ork mob holding vital objective but fluff badly and die when Orks hit back, Gemini having respawned one via Act of Faith bounce of Ork Mekboy. The big Ork mob in the building shoots one small sister squad to death and charges another 2 including the one they have fought for 2 turns now, they wipe out one small unit but the other unit holds and only loses 3. Mega Dreed charges Exorcist and melta Dominons but only kills two of them, ramshackle saving it when 3 meltas all hit on 5+ overwatch! Celestine again close enough to counter assault megadredd and does more damage without taking a wound.
Sisters 7VP, Orks 12VP

Exorcists and sisters back away from enemies, one Ork Dreadnought dies as do more Ork Boyz, It backs off and assaults dominons holding objective but only kills one. Meltas and grenades kill the Megadredd, Celestine flies off towards Geminae who manage to kill the mek boy warlord, but one is killed by shooting and the other on one wound. Dreadnoughts take one exorcist down to 1 wound (deathskulls shooting is scary good on single models) but fail to wipe out large sisters squad in melee. Orks spend their last CP and respawn the last ork mob at full strength near the right hand objective, but they fail their multicharge, taking a few casualties.
Sisters VP 10VP, Orks 15 VP

AOF respawns one Geminae and Celestine heals the other, they burn and shoot the remaining orks on objective and claim it. Exorcists bounce off or miss the dreadnoughts, but melta guns and bolters kill them, keeping objective. Last remaining ork mob Orks multicharge and wipe out sisters taking objective.
Final Score Sisters 15VP and Orks 16VP

Full credit to the ork player – he played excellently to the objectives and with his trademark good humour throughout.

My first turn -pushing forward into the teeth and choppers of the Xenos


We fought over this battle fro 4 turns, the Canoness and 2 sisters held it at the end.


Having abadonned the building the Ork mob respawned at full strength and charged home to victory


Thoughts:
* Did not build around AOF but had 10 FP so used them as I could, they were mostly useful – especially brining back models – would consider a hospitalar for that reason but opponents with learn to focus fire units as they do with Necrons.
* The relic to extend Shield of Faith bubble was vital as was the sword, did not get to use the anti-psyker one.
* Castle of Faith was effective but does restrict your options in a game like this in terms of movement – need to keep fast movers to grab stuff end game.
* Celestine was still great in combat but much less mobile – if you keep her back for the Castle of Faith that works and good counterstrike potential. If she could deepstrike with her Geminae could be an interesting option.
* Convictions: 5+ overwatch and only loose one model to morale is good, 6+++ not bad but probably go with the former. Would not go for the others. Like marines its beyond stupid they do not apply to vehicles.
* Toughness 4 really does matter no matter what pure marine players say.
* Battle Sisters remain good, Exorcists are good at not dying but shooting is horribly random, Immolators remain good. Serpahim should be good against low T targets. Domions remain a power house.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Battle report from yesterday

Thanks so much for this!

Great report, Mr Morden. Using the rules we have to see what works is excellent.

My only criticism is it looks like you are 4 points short because you only purchased 1 of 2 Power Swords for the Gemenia.

Great write-up! I'll try to deliver a few next week... I've got one in the bag (AdMech) so far and a few more (Necrons, Orks, maybe Death Guard or Cult) scheduled over the holidays.

Is it just me, or does it seem like we have a few relics and options that are "Mandatory" to fill out our army?
Book of St Lucius + Indomnitable Belief is pretty much an auto take for durability reasons.
Brazier is mandatory in any situation where we need psychic defense.
Blade of Admonition is not a must-take, but is at least a should-take if we want anything in melee that isn't also repenting for something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unrelated, but I'm toying around with a potential detachment that could be slotted in to other armies to act as the "Melee punch" for otherwise shooty detachments.

Vanguard Detachment
Bloody Rose

Canoness, Blade of Admonition (49pts) [Warlord - Give her Indomitable Belief)
Celestine (160pts) [Optional - If this is being added to a Sisters list, she can be part of the main detachment.]

Preacher (25pts)
Mistress of Repentance (38pts)
9x Repentia (135pts)
9x Repentia (135pts)

Rhino, 2x Storm Bolters (77pts)
Rhino, 2x Storm Bolters (77pts)


In total, it's 696 points - 536 if you aren't counting Celestine, 746 if you include the Geminae.

Both Rhinos get packed full of Repentia, one gets the Preacher, the other gets the Mistress. Celestine and the Canoness run behind, (giving the Canoness +3" Act of Faith when possible so she can keep up more easily,) giving the Rhinos a 4++ to keep them alive against antitank fire.

The rest of the strategy is pretty obvious. Run this forward, charge something scary. (Use the Rhinos to charge first, to absorb overwatch.) Try and activate The Passion, using a Command Point to reroll if necessary, and then use Vessel to get it onto both squads.

Best case scenario, you're getting 144 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, hitting on 4+ with rerolls on 1s and 2s to hit, plus 12 attacks at S6 AP-3 D3 hitting on a rerollable 2+, plus 14 attacks at S7 AP-3 D2 hitting on 2s. That's going to melt pretty much anything, or more likely it's going to melt several anythings. (Of course, getting all of these is pretty unlikely, since your opponent is going to sink a ton of firepower into killing them, but rhinos with a 4++ are not bad in terms of durability and there's always an Act of Faith to bring back a model here or there as needed.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
Is it just me, or does it seem like we have a few relics and options that are "Mandatory" to fill out our army?
Book of St Lucius + Indomnitable Belief is pretty much an auto take for durability reasons.
Brazier is mandatory in any situation where we need psychic defense.
Blade of Admonition is not a must-take, but is at least a should-take if we want anything in melee that isn't also repenting for something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unrelated, but I'm toying around with a potential detachment that could be slotted in to other armies to act as the "Melee punch" for otherwise shooty detachments.

Vanguard Detachment
Bloody Rose

Canoness, Blade of Admonition (49pts) [Warlord - Give her Indomitable Belief)
Celestine (160pts) [Optional - If this is being added to a Sisters list, she can be part of the main detachment.]

Preacher (25pts)
Mistress of Repentance (38pts)
9x Repentia (135pts)
9x Repentia (135pts)

Rhino, 2x Storm Bolters (77pts)
Rhino, 2x Storm Bolters (77pts)


In total, it's 696 points - 536 if you aren't counting Celestine, 746 if you include the Geminae.

Both Rhinos get packed full of Repentia, one gets the Preacher, the other gets the Mistress. Celestine and the Canoness run behind, (giving the Canoness +3" Act of Faith when possible so she can keep up more easily,) giving the Rhinos a 4++ to keep them alive against antitank fire.

The rest of the strategy is pretty obvious. Run this forward, charge something scary. (Use the Rhinos to charge first, to absorb overwatch.) Try and activate The Passion, using a Command Point to reroll if necessary, and then use Vessel to get it onto both squads.

Best case scenario, you're getting 144 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, hitting on 4+ with rerolls on 1s and 2s to hit, plus 12 attacks at S6 AP-3 D3 hitting on a rerollable 2+, plus 14 attacks at S7 AP-3 D2 hitting on 2s. That's going to melt pretty much anything, or more likely it's going to melt several anythings. (Of course, getting all of these is pretty unlikely, since your opponent is going to sink a ton of firepower into killing them, but rhinos with a 4++ are not bad in terms of durability and there's always an Act of Faith to bring back a model here or there as needed.)

Book isn't always all that helpful tbh. If you're not going for the 4++ and Vessels then the double bubbles are pretty huge already. If you are then you need to be within 6 of Celestine and the Canoness anyway. It does makes certain small bubble setups more practical, however. A good example would of this would be the double Rhino detachment you suggested. Book would be very useful there because the only units the bubbles need to overlap are the Rhinos. If you tried to add more infantry or more tanks, you start running into issues where you get stragglers only catching a 5++ and getting picked off.

Your setup is a pretty typical usage of Repentia but it has some problems. First is that 700pts is REALLY expensive, you could buy 4 of the melee Armigers or 2 Knight Gallants for that. It requires your canoness to be Warlord, which makes it unsuitable for allies, and you're only really going to get one shot with each unit if they do make it to combat. Repentia are devastatingly weak to both small arms fire and counter charges(even units of fire warriors can kill multiple repentia in a combat round). That said, if you can sneak them under the radar a unit of fully buffed repentia has like a 40% chance to Ace a Castellan in a single shot.

Sidebar: Don't waste points on the Geminae. They're arguably the worst unit in the game at the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Great report, Mr Morden. Using the rules we have to see what works is excellent.

My only criticism is it looks like you are 4 points short because you only purchased 1 of 2 Power Swords for the Gemenia.

My criticism is to not give the 4++ ball a real name, lol. 'The Center Blob' is frankly as respectful as setups like that deserve. Darn you GW !

I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.

 pretre wrote:
I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.

Yeah that's what I'll be throwing into Deathwatch, you can get it 10 pts cheaper if one HQ is a missionary. Deathwatch have lots of 2+ and 3++ saves, so a main concern is MWs. Having the Sisters in there can potentially shut down 1/2 of smites so really can add to the resiliency of the Marines. It's a little more costly than Guard or AdMech bats, but I think the anti-psychic abilities are worth it.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.

Yeah that's what I'll be throwing into Deathwatch, you can get it 10 pts cheaper if one HQ is a missionary. Deathwatch have lots of 2+ and 3++ saves, so a main concern is MWs. Having the Sisters in there can potentially shut down 1/2 of smites so really can add to the resiliency of the Marines. It's a little more costly than Guard or AdMech bats, but I think the anti-psychic abilities are worth it.

I thought about that, but the Missionary can't add to the defense. Either way, it's pretty nice. You can splash up a bit to get some other stuff that makes it even more fun too.

 pretre wrote:
I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.

Official nerf to Aegis of the Emperor coming in 3... 2... 1...