Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
One big blob moving into the center field. when you take into account Cannoness base size, 9" aura, celestines base size, 6" aura, it just makes it a little bit easier to catch both auras. Brazier cannoness in the blob there too to spread her goodness over as many units as possible.
There's no point in splitting them up, 1 rhino is enough for a make shift LoS blocker and means 1 bubble wrap can pull tripple time.
I feel like I need to split them to manage weapon ranges and chase objectives. I usually leave a naked Canoness with the Exos, run the Brazier up the middle next to Celestine and Jacobus, and send a Bloody Rose Canoness with BoA to follow the Dominions as a counter-counter-charge. I think its less efficient than the single blob, but also maybe more adaptable and fun.
Drider wrote: One big blob moving into the center field. when you take into account Cannoness base size, 9" aura, celestines base size, 6" aura, it just makes it a little bit easier to catch both auras. Brazier cannoness in the blob there too to spread her goodness over as many units as possible.
There's no point in splitting them up, 1 rhino is enough for a make shift LoS blocker and means 1 bubble wrap can pull tripple time.
That whole thing sounds miserable. Your movement phases would take half an hour on any table with reasonable terrain.
And even now I'm still not sold on the 4++ bubble for infantry. For the tanks, it's obviously fantastic. For infantry, I keep wracking my brain to try and think of any time people were throwing -2, or -3 AP weapons at battle sisters and the only things I can think of are non-overcharged plasma and DE disintegrator cannons. Those are obviously good weapons that are fairly prevelant in their respective armies, but is it worth building a 'not really a death ball' for those specific cases?
I'm starting to think that maybe full mech is the best way to play SoBatm. Triple Exorcist with a bunch of immolators/repressors all balled up around the 4++ characters. Go first and you can push out your dominions and walk the blob up the field with Hand of the Emperor on the Canoness(finally a not pathetic use for Hand of the Emperor) and a decent run roll. You can even cancel the movement penalty for the exorcists with Vessels.
If you go second, either get the dominions out of line of sight or keep them together with the 4++ ball and wait out the first turn. With immolation flamers and/or repressors you should be able to hit SOMETHING on that turn.
The big thing with this is that I think you need to do it in such a way that you can still afford at least 500pts of allies(which will NOT be easy at 100pts per transport) and since you can't make a knight your warlord, the easy Crusader/Castellan slot in probably won't work for you. I need to test this more...
In light of the CP discussion one page back, I took a shot at a triple battalion. I found I could swing it at the overall cost (give or take) of the Seraphim squad I'd been bringing... most of the other stuff shows up.
Bloody Rose Battalion
Canoness
Missionary
Celestians (5) w/ Power Axe
BSS BSS BSS
That's 10 or 11 Faith Points (gotta see who counts), 18 CP (less 1 or 3, depending on whether I add the Book to someone), 6 tanks, and more that 80 bodies, many of them 3+/4++/6+.
So, triple battalion can be done, at least with my collection, but should it? Will the 15 Bloody Rose Sisters be worth 10 Seraphim? Should I swipe the Rhino from the melta BSS squads and give it to the Bloody Rose mob?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/30 05:33:46
MacPheil: I'm not sure if you're just limited by available models, but if we're talking theoretical optimization, every single one of your BSS that doesn't already have special weapons should include Storm Bolters. (Even your Melta squad.)
I count 17 Battle Sisters who could be taking Storm Bolters but aren't. That's 34pts, which is pitifully few for the extra damage output you're getting.
Waaaghpower wrote: MacPheil: I'm not sure if you're just limited by available models, but if we're talking theoretical optimization, every single one of your BSS that doesn't already have special weapons should include Storm Bolters. (Even your Melta squad.)
I count 17 Battle Sisters who could be taking Storm Bolters but aren't. That's 34pts, which is pitifully few for the extra damage output you're getting.
Yeah, that's the limits of my collection. I've got more melta sitting around, piles of flamers, but no stormbolters beyond what's listed. With plastics on the horizon I can't bring myself to shell out $10+ per monopose metal model. There's a lot of places I'd rather drop a couple hundred bucks in this hobby.
ERJAK wrote: The big thing with this is that I think you need to do it in such a way that you can still afford at least 500pts of allies(which will NOT be easy at 100pts per transport) and since you can't make a knight your warlord, the easy Crusader/Castellan slot in probably won't work for you. I need to test this more...
Agreed on all points, I've been running two battalions of OoSR with my +1 detachment of "lets see what this does" running at just over 300 points. That's running 3 Canoni, Celestine and a Missionary of one kind or another. Bringing a Missionary in each Battalion and dropping Celestine all together could get that number up over 450 points outside the two Battalions. Normally I run pure Sisters, but I have put a few Helverins in this list while leaving Celestine in. If you removed her to get above 450, what would you add?
I think knight allies go really well with sisters. Lets be honest, how many pure army lists are we seeing these days anyway. Soup is so common its more or less accepted.
Having a Castellan with two helverins ally with a sisters army seems like best of both worlds. You get doms in repulsers charging up the board with exorcists at the back raining death from afar along with the helverins and the castellan. And with all that mech, its a lot of hp to chew through.
Its still a predominantly sisters army as far as I am concerned.
Thoughts on a wedge formation with 3 penitent engines and Celestine in the middle. You get a nasty hth squad with 4+/6++/5+++
Just finshied a tournament, and that set up worked for me better then trying to castle the 4++ on other tanks.
That’s 460pts. I feel it was better damage and survivabilty then a OoBR repentia set up. And you could keep tacting on Pentient engines at 100pts a pop.
Full spear head maxed out would be 1060. 36a s10 -3ap 3d, fight again, no passion needed.
MacPhail wrote: In light of the CP discussion one page back, I took a shot at a triple battalion. I found I could swing it at the overall cost (give or take) of the Seraphim squad I'd been bringing... most of the other stuff shows up.
Bloody Rose Battalion
Canoness
Missionary
Celestians (5) w/ Power Axe
BSS BSS BSS
That's 10 or 11 Faith Points (gotta see who counts), 18 CP (less 1 or 3, depending on whether I add the Book to someone), 6 tanks, and more that 80 bodies, many of them 3+/4++/6+.
So, triple battalion can be done, at least with my collection, but should it? Will the 15 Bloody Rose Sisters be worth 10 Seraphim? Should I swipe the Rhino from the melta BSS squads and give it to the Bloody Rose mob?
Battalion:
Canoness, Power Axe, Storm Bolter
Missonary
3x 5x BSS, 3x Storm Bolters
I realize this is just a hypothetical, but it's a pretty bad list. The only source of S7+ is Celestine and the Exorcists, and three Exorcists aren't enough on their own to deal with heavy hitting targets. Even assuming you don't get back luck at a critical moment (Which is extremely common) you're only going to be averaging 9 wounds against T8 5++, (which is to say, Knights,) assuming you have a Canoness nearby for buffs. If your target has a better invuln, your DPS goes down even further. If you face an army full of transports, you're going to find yourself incapable of using most of your anti-infantry damage because you lack the ability to crack open the shells.
It's got plenty of anti-infantry, but that's not enough on its own.
ERJAK wrote: The big thing with this is that I think you need to do it in such a way that you can still afford at least 500pts of allies(which will NOT be easy at 100pts per transport) and since you can't make a knight your warlord, the easy Crusader/Castellan slot in probably won't work for you. I need to test this more...
Agreed on all points, I've been running two battalions of OoSR with my +1 detachment of "lets see what this does" running at just over 300 points. That's running 3 Canoni, Celestine and a Missionary of one kind or another. Bringing a Missionary in each Battalion and dropping Celestine all together could get that number up over 450 points outside the two Battalions. Normally I run pure Sisters, but I have put a few Helverins in this list while leaving Celestine in. If you removed her to get above 450, what would you add?
Two Jetbike Custodes Captains and an Allarus Captain or 3 smash captains or a Knight Crusader are all possibilities. You might even be able to swing something like 3 Russ tank commanders or some Admech Shenanigans. Double Helverin works also. Some of the setups you have to be a bit...creative with your points cuts (less so if you give all your allies anti-tank and switch doms to SB) but you can swing up to 480pts of allies without giving up too much.
Or just bring 3 exorcists and some extra bells and whistles and pray the dice gods love you.
Battalion:
Canoness, Power Axe, Storm Bolter
Missonary
3x 5x BSS, 3x Storm Bolters
I realize this is just a hypothetical, but it's a pretty bad list. The only source of S7+ is Celestine and the Exorcists, and three Exorcists aren't enough on their own to deal with heavy hitting targets. Even assuming you don't get back luck at a critical moment (Which is extremely common) you're only going to be averaging 9 wounds against T8 5++, (which is to say, Knights,) assuming you have a Canoness nearby for buffs. If your target has a better invuln, your DPS goes down even further. If you face an army full of transports, you're going to find yourself incapable of using most of your anti-infantry damage because you lack the ability to crack open the shells.
It's got plenty of anti-infantry, but that's not enough on its own.
A list like this actually doesn't care about heavy hitters...or really any weapons with AP better than -1. Kill your opponent's heavy bolters and melee units early with the exorcists and sit back while your opponent tears their hair out trying to kill 115 infantry models with 3+4++ models that regenerate.
You'll kill like...200pts worth of models and win because you just blob up so much of the board. You insta-lose against any army that either out-hordes you or that has enough medium strength, low AP firepower to start clearing off full squads, but against like a knight army, or a custodes list, you don't even need to actually do any wounds to win.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zaahul wrote: Thoughts on a wedge formation with 3 penitent engines and Celestine in the middle. You get a nasty hth squad with 4+/6++/5+++
Just finshied a tournament, and that set up worked for me better then trying to castle the 4++ on other tanks.
That’s 460pts. I feel it was better damage and survivabilty then a OoBR repentia set up. And you could keep tacting on Pentient engines at 100pts a pop.
Full spear head maxed out would be 1060. 36a s10 -3ap 3d, fight again, no passion needed.
?
I think it ultimtely ends up being a bit meta dependent. The ITC is skewed quite a bit towards Knights at the moment so in those areas there is A LOT of anti-tank running around. If you play in a more Infantry heavy area, that many penitent engines might just overload your opponent's ability to deal with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think knight allies go really well with sisters. Lets be honest, how many pure army lists are we seeing these days anyway. Soup is so common its more or less accepted.
Having a Castellan with two helverins ally with a sisters army seems like best of both worlds. You get doms in repulsers charging up the board with exorcists at the back raining death from afar along with the helverins and the castellan. And with all that mech, its a lot of hp to chew through.
Its still a predominantly sisters army as far as I am concerned.
You can't really fit all of those things into one list, if you want to have a good number of CP. Just a min battalion with Melta Doms is over 1000pts. Even going SB doms doesn't save you a ton. With a min battalion with SB doms, a Castellan and 2 Helverins you're looking at like 8CP and enough room for 1-1.5 exorcists.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/30 10:14:10
I've gotten about 11 games in with the beta Codex now, won some, lost more. I personally think mechanized is slightly better, or at least more enjoyable.
I'm taking a break from Sisters as a primary force for a while, I've realized over the last week or so that it isn't really even the strength of the Codex that I'm not liking. The army right now just isn't enjoyable to play, it's flavor is gone, or at least just very bland. I loved Sisters in the old Witchhunters Dex, had a big emphasis on the holy Trinity of weaponry and acts of Faith that required careful planning in the list building and in-game phases. Also enjoyed playing Index Sisters mainly because I like Seraphim and AoF that could change the game if used well.
Honestly, I think one of the biggest issues with Sisters is heavy reliance on two of the more inferior Imperial weapon classes in the game right now, Flamers and Meltas. Back in the WH Dex meltas/flamers were some of the better options imperials could take so Sisters close range firepower was effective. Now it's lackluster. In the Index the Acts of Faith sort of covered up the fact that we are reliant on weaponry that is...not great. I mean our best long range weaponry was Heavy Bolters, show me a decent Marine or Guard army that enthusiastically maxes out Heavy Bolters because they are such a great weapon...I'll wait.
So I've moved on to composing feedback for the BetaDex, I'll be sending it in in the new few weeks. I'm not giving up on Sisters entirely or anything, but for the next while they are just going to be a CP battalion for my new Deathwatch army. They do bring some decent anti-psychic abilities if needed and my Deathwatch need some help protecting against Smites and other MWs, as well as some cheap backfield units to allow the Vets to get the real work done.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
Sums up my feelings about the entire Betadex really.
Separate question: If I am running OoSR and fail a morale check would the Rally the Faithful stratagem negate the model loss as it reduces your morale losses by half, rounding down?
Battalion:
Canoness, Power Axe, Storm Bolter
Missonary
3x 5x BSS, 3x Storm Bolters
I realize this is just a hypothetical, but it's a pretty bad list. The only source of S7+ is Celestine and the Exorcists, and three Exorcists aren't enough on their own to deal with heavy hitting targets. Even assuming you don't get back luck at a critical moment (Which is extremely common) you're only going to be averaging 9 wounds against T8 5++, (which is to say, Knights,) assuming you have a Canoness nearby for buffs. If your target has a better invuln, your DPS goes down even further. If you face an army full of transports, you're going to find yourself incapable of using most of your anti-infantry damage because you lack the ability to crack open the shells.
It's got plenty of anti-infantry, but that's not enough on its own.
The thing it's not relying on killing things to win. Its relying on objectives and staying power. Unhinges unless you play knights you should be able to kill at least one turn. In ITC games you'll be hard pressed to have a turn where you don't hold more than your opponent.
The thing is though it's boring, miserable, and expensive to play. I've played 5 games with the new codex playing only horde sisters and while its strong its also one of the least enjoyable experiences I've had playing an army in 8th.
A list like this actually doesn't care about heavy hitters...or really any weapons with AP better than -1. Kill your opponent's heavy bolters and melee units early with the exorcists and sit back while your opponent tears their hair out trying to kill 115 infantry models with 3+4++ models that regenerate.
You'll kill like...200pts worth of models and win because you just blob up so much of the board. You insta-lose against any army that either out-hordes you or that has enough medium strength, low AP firepower to start clearing off full squads, but against like a knight army, or a custodes list, you don't even need to actually do any wounds to win.
.
Is 115 3/4 save wounds that much harder than 300 no save troops? Having tried 300+ model swarm banking on that many not getting wiped off only to be wiped out in 5 turns learned you do need to kill stuff. Offence outpowers defence in 8thed. No 2++ rerollable 30 wound units with wound allocation shenigans or something like that.
On a positive note, If Gitz are getting this many kits for their revamp, I am very optimistic for sisters.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Okay, so here's a list I plan on running for this Saturday to test out the beta dex. The theme for this test: do MSU Sisters still work?
My list will be as follows:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- meltagun, heavy flamer- 73
5 Battle Sisters- meltagun, heavy flamer- 73
5 Battle Sisters- meltagun, heavy flamer- 73
Preacher- 25
9 Arco-Flagellants- 135
2 Geminae Superia- 50
Sister Dialogus- Book of St. Lucius- 30
5 Dominions- 4 storm bolters- 58
8 Seraphiim- 2 hand flamers- 100
Penitent Engine- 100
Penitent Engine- 100
Penitent Engine- 100
Immolator- Immolation flamer- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamer- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamer- 98
Rhino- 75
Rhino- 75
SACRED ROSE SPEARHEAD:
Canoness- bolt pistol, power sword- 49
7 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters, simulacrum imperialis- 122
Exorcist- 125
Exorcist- 125
Total: 1998
OPTIONS I'M CONSIDERING:
-Dropping some Retributors/Seraphim to bulk up one of the Sister squads, to take better advantage of the Bloody Rose and the number of attacks it can dish out
-Possibly putting the Book on the Preacher instead
-Possibly going for Indomitable Belief + the Book on the Bloody Rose Canoness instead
-Maybe trading the Retributors for another Exorcist
-Possibly finding the points somehow to give all of my Sister Superiors combi-flamers or combi-meltas (or even just storm bolters). OR ALTERNATIVELY, finding a way to give all of my Sister Superiors power weapons, since I am playing Bloody Rose after all
THINGS I AM GOING TO WATCH OUT FOR IN THIS PLAYTEST:
-How good Bloody Rose Sisters are in CC, on average
-How well the Sisters do with anti-infantry and anti-tank firepower
-How much of an impact Faith makes, really
pretre wrote: On a positive note, If Gitz are getting this many kits for their revamp, I am very optimistic for sisters.
I'm optimistic for Sisters a year from now.
I am depressed with them currently, because the swarm and roll 50 handfuls of individually-inconsequential-but-necessary-to-win dice is not only one I personally hate, but one which I have gotten in trouble with one of the local TOs for because it forces you to play and roll like a man on fire, which is incredibly toxic to casual players who aren't jockeying for the top table when you can't stop to banter with them.
The ITC unannounced-rolls-don't-do-anything makes that second part worse; it doesn't effect me personally, as I always announce "hitting on 3s no reroll", "wounding on 5s", "four saves no AP one damage each", etc.; but I can see anyone else who plays an optimized Sisters list efficiently on a clock to run into the same "not being friendly enough" critique that I did.
And now that the Sisters have zero tabling potential on their own, that problem will be exasperated, because you're not even trying to squeeze three or four turns in to achieve 33+ tabled score, but you've got to knock out the full six rounds to try and challenge breaking the 30 you need to stay relevant at a big event.
At the risk of being that guy - at a big event and you plop down a horde list I think most people will understand the lack of friendly conversation being attributed to the mad dash to finish the game.
ERJAK wrote: That's stupid. The data set they're going to get from LVO won't be much help at all. Only like 3-4 people in the top 100 slots ever play sisters and of those AT LEAST 1 is going to stick with the index rules. The only way the LVO dataset would have been significant is if the book had received a clear buff.
Reece specifically stated that the index is dead for LVO. The beta dex is the only codex you can play for sisters now.
I've been running this since the beta drop. As much as hate the new dex, I have had pretty decent results.
Battalion
Canoness - Blade
Canoness - naked
BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB
If you go second you can castle and hide in the transports. If you go first, deploy enough so the BSS can run up and hop in, then move the tanks. Then you have 3 repressors with 1x Dom and 1x BSS or scatter as needed. If they shoot at the 4++ Exos or Repressors then you're Castellan is doing a happy dance in the corner. If they shoot at your castellan and don't get kill it, then who cares for 1cp it's 100% next turn and the rest of your crap can open fire.
We're basically hosting an RTT in my buddy's basement in January. I'll have more reports on performance later. The 9CP is right on the borderline of not enough, so i might drop the Doms for BSS and run two battalions. I'd lose out on scout and 6 storm bolters, but meh. The Seraphim are in there as a min squad for line breaker hiding on turn 3 or to drop on something squishy to take an objective with their 12" flamer strat. I've been primarily running FNP for the battalion and 5+ overwatch for the spearhead. AoF are an afterthought bonus. Pretty much Passion on Celestine and the blade Canoness and Divine guidance on the Rets. I haven't thought twice bout trying Vessels because most of my CP goes to the knight.
I just reposted two battle reports (AdMech and Necrons) in the BatRep forum and added a third (Dark Angels + Knight). They seem to get buried over here. and I'd love some insights if anyone is so inclined.
Excellent conversation, by the way... I can't help but notice that our last thread ran to 100 pages over several years, and this one's at 20 after a few weeks.
ERJAK wrote: That's stupid. The data set they're going to get from LVO won't be much help at all. Only like 3-4 people in the top 100 slots ever play sisters and of those AT LEAST 1 is going to stick with the index rules. The only way the LVO dataset would have been significant is if the book had received a clear buff.
Reece specifically stated that the index is dead for LVO. The beta dex is the only codex you can play for sisters now.
I've been running this since the beta drop. As much as hate the new dex, I have had pretty decent results. Battalion Canoness - Blade Canoness - naked BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB
If you go second you can castle and hide in the transports. If you go first, deploy enough so the BSS can run up and hop in, then move the tanks. Then you have 3 repressors with 1x Dom and 1x BSS or scatter as needed. If they shoot at the 4++ Exos or Repressors then you're Castellan is doing a happy dance in the corner. If they shoot at your castellan and don't get kill it, then who cares for 1cp it's 100% next turn and the rest of your crap can open fire.
We're basically hosting an RTT in my buddy's basement in January. I'll have more reports on performance later. The 9CP is right on the borderline of not enough, so i might drop the Doms for BSS and run two battalions. I'd lose out on scout and 6 storm bolters, but meh. The Seraphim are in there as a min squad for line breaker hiding on turn 3 or to drop on something squishy to take an objective with their 12" flamer strat. I've been primarily running FNP for the battalion and 5+ overwatch for the spearhead. AoF are an afterthought bonus. Pretty much Passion on Celestine and the blade Canoness and Divine guidance on the Rets. I haven't thought twice bout trying Vessels because most of my CP goes to the knight.
A Castellan soup list that uses a lot of cheap infantry for mobility, screening and CP support that does well? Who ever would of guessed. I never in a million years would have bet that a Castellan soup list would see positive results. How amazing it is to me that a setup like this works well. I am the shocked.
That list would have worked basically the same in the index except traded mobility for better defense. I think fundamentally, that's the biggest problem with this book. It needed to be better than the index if we wanted to be an actually competitively viable option and it mostly just shuffled the power around a bit(and made the army a bit boring imo).
The fact that they're banning the index rules is silly. It's a beta codex, it's not even a real book. If I bring a Dark Eldar codex I wrote in crayon on some napkins, is that legal too?
A list like this actually doesn't care about heavy hitters...or really any weapons with AP better than -1. Kill your opponent's heavy bolters and melee units early with the exorcists and sit back while your opponent tears their hair out trying to kill 115 infantry models with 3+4++ models that regenerate.
You'll kill like...200pts worth of models and win because you just blob up so much of the board. You insta-lose against any army that either out-hordes you or that has enough medium strength, low AP firepower to start clearing off full squads, but against like a knight army, or a custodes list, you don't even need to actually do any wounds to win.
.
Is 115 3/4 save wounds that much harder than 300 no save troops? Having tried 300+ model swarm banking on that many not getting wiped off only to be wiped out in 5 turns learned you do need to kill stuff. Offence outpowers defence in 8thed. No 2++ rerollable 30 wound units with wound allocation shenigans or something like that.
It can be, depending on the matchup. People see marines get cleared off the board and forget how ridiculous 3+ actually is when costed appropriately. Offense outpaces defense in normal army situations. This is not that. Clearing that many sisters requires as many ap-0 shots at it would take to kill 345 saveless models...assuming they're out in the open. But they're not in the open, they'll be in cover everywhere, which puts them into the 2+ save territory, which is the same as almost SEVEN HUNDRED saveless models. You're basically immune to moral and you regenerate like(crappy) Necrons.
Also, you have very little offense, not none. All you have to do is kill anything that has a large number of attacks/shots. Daemonettes, aggressors, HBDevs, Sicarran infiltrators, etc. Something like a Knight Castellan wouldn't even be worth bothering with. Between divine guidance, fire and fury, blessed bolts etc, you should be able to clear off his chaff clearing units and then outright ignore anything with more than AP-1.
It's a miserable list to play and you will run into armies that happen to have enough shots/attacks to take you out anyway(Orkz come to mind) but against certain lists you can kill 2-3 units and ignore the rest and still probably win.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rynner wrote: At the risk of being that guy - at a big event and you plop down a horde list I think most people will understand the lack of friendly conversation being attributed to the mad dash to finish the game.
Just don't bother. Horde lists are stronger early than they are late anyway. Play at a normal pace and end the game on 3 up by a bunch of objective points. Then convince your opponent that it was because of GW's bs pushing of horde armies and tell them to write GW to make Horde armies less prevelant.
Do that enough and the problem should solve itself.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/31 09:18:00
It can be, depending on the matchup. People see marines get cleared off the board and forget how ridiculous 3+ actually is when costed appropriately. Offense outpaces defense in normal army situations. This is not that. Clearing that many sisters requires as many ap-0 shots at it would take to kill 345 saveless models...assuming they're out in the open. But they're not in the open, they'll be in cover everywhere, which puts them into the 2+ save territory, which is the same as almost SEVEN HUNDRED saveless models. You're basically immune to moral and you regenerate like(crappy) Necrons.
Also, you have very little offense, not none. All you have to do is kill anything that has a large number of attacks/shots. Daemonettes, aggressors, HBDevs, Sicarran infiltrators, etc. Something like a Knight Castellan wouldn't even be worth bothering with. Between divine guidance, fire and fury, blessed bolts etc, you should be able to clear off his chaff clearing units and then outright ignore anything with more than AP-1.
It's a miserable list to play and you will run into armies that happen to have enough shots/attacks to take you out anyway(Orkz come to mind) but against certain lists you can kill 2-3 units and ignore the rest and still probably win.
I still think you're highly overestimating the durability on offer here, at least if we're talking tournament level competition. You won't have cover on everything all the time, and while you will do somewhat better against attacks designed to kill saveless models, attacks with AP are going to be lacking in anything else to shoot at and are inevitably going to end up hitting your sisters instead. (And you're going to crumple in melee.)
Let's even consider pure Custodes here for a minute, since you brought it up as a possible example.
3 Jetbikes with a Captain nearby will kill 7.6 Sisters of Battle if they're not in cover, assuming rapid fire range. (And since Praetors move 14", managing to get close to the sisters of battle units that aren't entirely in cover isn't going to be hard.) Then, they're going to charge and kill 6 more. (This is assuming that those Sisters of Battle have a 4++, by the way. If they don't, it's almost twice as many kills in CQC.)
A pure Custodes army is going to have three of these squads, and probably two Jetbike captains, since Custodes desperately need the anti-infantry and this is the best option we've got. Those three squads, not including the damage from the Captains, are going to kill 40 Sisters of Battle in one turn pretty easily, and also that's not including the other half of the army. (Since two Captains and three 3-man squads of Praetors is only 1147 points.)
And what do you have to actually hit back against these Custodes? Outside of the exorcists, The totality of your entire army before the Custodes do this damage you barely has enough firepower to kill one squad, assuming everything is in Rapid Fire and assuming everyone has the buffs from a Canoness. (And assuming that the Custodes player doesn't position well and consolidate into even more of your units, rendering your shooting inert.) The Exorcists by themselves can be reasonably expected to kill maybe 2 bikes per turn, but even then we're assuming that the Exorcists are all intact, not rolling below average for number of shots, and being buffed by a Canoness.
The problem with running this sort of list is that it requires you to stay bunched up to keep your army durable and resistant to high AP, but then you can easily have your entire army tied up in melee by someone capable of kicking your models up and down the table or outmaneuvering you. (You also can't actually use your numbers to hold objectives if you stay in a tight formation, so some of your units will inevitably have to split off and become easy pickings.)
EDIT: Correction, I did my math wrong above because I forgot Custodes get +1 to their invulns when in a pure detachment. Exorcists aren't going to kill an average of 2 bikes per turn, they're going to kill even less than that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/31 11:01:20
Managed three games so far - one close loss, one close win and the third got hammered - all with the new CA2018 missions
Will post some Bat reps but summary so far:
Actually having Chapter Tactics, I have not yet tried Bloody Rose, but 5+ overwatch and only 1 to morale is good, 6+++ is also not awful but Both suffer from the them not applying to vehicles. Its as stupid and annoying as Marines not getting it. Sadly the Faith based ones suffer from the Acts of Faith not being good enough to bother with.
Celestine is still very very good. More expensive and weaker but still good. WHY no Deep Strike option
Geminae less so - making them a seperate unit and reducing their saves makes them very weak, plus they can't come back when both have died. They are resurected canoness's they should have those stats (and costs). They can fly around a bit - but don't have much hitting power due to power swords and strength 3. Why no Deep strike option.
Toughness 4 and above is an absolute pain - having fought Marines and Necrons - they are hard to kill with what they have - especially Wraiths - both games they took the entire game to kill (7 turns in one) and that was without all their possible buffs.
Mortal Wounds generation - we seem to lack it and some things you really need it against.
Canoness work extremely well in all the roles except missing one who can drop in/keep up with the Serpahim (see above)
No Power Weapon options unless you throwback to the Index.
Exorcists - weapons are far far too random, they either need some the rules lavished on Leman Russes or a strat to make their missiles more reliable - anything really. They are however very durable and another good Storm bolter platform.
Immolators, Sisters and Domions remain solid, reliable workhouses
Acts of Faith: Unfortunately they are just not very good, they play like weak, quasi random strats that you either have to compromise your entire army to make work or just assume they won't and any that do are a bonus. For a signiture element of the army they are a failure. They also provide yet another thing to track adn remember.
Relics - good solid range and like all of them but the book and sword stand out as must takes which means the others will seldom see board time..
Strats: Blessed Bolts is awesome, Burning Descent works very well (might be more impressive at non T4, 3+ armour!), some other bits and pieces but the Faith ones are pretty weak - esp swapping one CP for a FP - Urghh no. However that goes back to the issue with the new Acts of Faith system.
Apart from the Castle of Faith I have not come up with much that works, but not tried Melee sisters - however to do that will have to use Index weapon upgrades.......
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
What's everyone's opinion on the Eviscerator? We can clearly take it from the Index, but with CA2018 overriding CA2017 they're back to 22 points, I think? Unless it doesn't override CA2017. Either way, I really want an Eviscerator.
Furthermore, is Celestine still an autotake? I am considering running a soup list with a bunch of Twin Heavy Flamer Chimeras, and bringing some Sororitas riding in Immolation Flamer Immolators would be pretty funny - probably 5 immolators, 2 for Melta Doms and 3 for BSS squads, and then use the extra seats for Canonesses. Not gonna go with the 4++ ball because with that much T7 3+ on the board (IG BN has 6 Chimeras), it should dick with the enemy's targeting priority without the slow-moving 4++ bubble, and I want the sisters to keep up with the guard.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Eviscerator? We can clearly take it from the Index, but with CA2018 overriding CA2017 they're back to 22 points, I think? Unless it doesn't override CA2017. Either way, I really want an Eviscerator.
Furthermore, is Celestine still an autotake? I am considering running a soup list with a bunch of Twin Heavy Flamer Chimeras, and bringing some Sororitas riding in Immolation Flamer Immolators would be pretty funny - probably 5 immolators, 2 for Melta Doms and 3 for BSS squads, and then use the extra seats for Canonesses. Not gonna go with the 4++ ball because with that much T7 3+ on the board (IG BN has 6 Chimeras), it should dick with the enemy's targeting priority without the slow-moving 4++ bubble, and I want the sisters to keep up with the guard.
She is still very powerful - and as a minor bonus will give any nearby Imperial Guard units a 6+ Invulnerable.....
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
True, but she's also 160 points. That's an immolator and a half, or a Chimera plus the squad it carries plus extra still.
Bright side, it's not a done deal if I don't run her; at least she can keep up with the tanks.
The rest of the list would probably be a Canoness with the deny relic for some psychic defense when they hop out of the tanks, 3x BSS with storm bolters, and like I said, the melta doms. Lastly, I'd like to cram an immolator or even repressor full of heavy flamer retributors; could stick a bolter girlie and a combi-melta on the sergeant for Holy Trinity, I guess? 4+ to-wound knights with 4 heavy flamers actually sounds scary for once.
ERJAK wrote: That's stupid. The data set they're going to get from LVO won't be much help at all. Only like 3-4 people in the top 100 slots ever play sisters and of those AT LEAST 1 is going to stick with the index rules. The only way the LVO dataset would have been significant is if the book had received a clear buff.
Reece specifically stated that the index is dead for LVO. The beta dex is the only codex you can play for sisters now.
I've been running this since the beta drop. As much as hate the new dex, I have had pretty decent results.
Battalion
Canoness - Blade
Canoness - naked
BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB
If you go second you can castle and hide in the transports. If you go first, deploy enough so the BSS can run up and hop in, then move the tanks. Then you have 3 repressors with 1x Dom and 1x BSS or scatter as needed. If they shoot at the 4++ Exos or Repressors then you're Castellan is doing a happy dance in the corner. If they shoot at your castellan and don't get kill it, then who cares for 1cp it's 100% next turn and the rest of your crap can open fire.
We're basically hosting an RTT in my buddy's basement in January. I'll have more reports on performance later. The 9CP is right on the borderline of not enough, so i might drop the Doms for BSS and run two battalions. I'd lose out on scout and 6 storm bolters, but meh. The Seraphim are in there as a min squad for line breaker hiding on turn 3 or to drop on something squishy to take an objective with their 12" flamer strat. I've been primarily running FNP for the battalion and 5+ overwatch for the spearhead. AoF are an afterthought bonus. Pretty much Passion on Celestine and the blade Canoness and Divine guidance on the Rets. I haven't thought twice bout trying Vessels because most of my CP goes to the knight.
A Castellan soup list that uses a lot of cheap infantry for mobility, screening and CP support that does well? Who ever would of guessed. I never in a million years would have bet that a Castellan soup list would see positive results. How amazing it is to me that a setup like this works well. I am the shocked.
That list would have worked basically the same in the index except traded mobility for better defense. I think fundamentally, that's the biggest problem with this book. It needed to be better than the index if we wanted to be an actually competitively viable option and it mostly just shuffled the power around a bit(and made the army a bit boring imo).
The fact that they're banning the index rules is silly. It's a beta codex, it's not even a real book. If I bring a Dark Eldar codex I wrote in crayon on some napkins, is that legal too?
I view it as a partial preview of our complete dex we'll see in a year. I for one hope that when GSC drops soon all Indexes get burned. I don't care for the 'I can use it because it's in the index argument.' I think everyone should suffer with what is only written in their codex. It's more grim dark.
Also, if i didn't know better, I think there may have been some sarcasm in your Castellan comments. You had previously posted on the page before about the double battalion and trying to field 450 worth of allies. What else can we run that's a better ally? Right now the meta is "make a list that can stop Orks and Castellans and you'll do ok". To be fair, the list I posted I got to play once with the index and it was way better. Then betadex dropped, and it was identical, but less powerful. I guess I'm still just stewing in a funk and in denial this is the new reality.
pretre wrote: On a positive note, If Gitz are getting this many kits for their revamp, I am very optimistic for sisters.
I'm optimistic for Sisters a year from now.
I think it's pretty obvious that I'm talking about the models since I'm talking about the Gits model release. I think we're all familiar with your opinions on the current state of the rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/31 15:53:42
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
You had previously posted on the page before about the double battalion and trying to field 450 worth of allies. What else can we run that's a better ally? Right now the meta is "make a list that can stop Orks and Castellans and you'll do ok". To be fair, the list I posted I got to play once with the index and it was way better. Then betadex dropped, and it was identical, but less powerful. I guess I'm still just stewing in a funk and in denial this is the new reality.