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Unit1126PLL wrote: True, but she's also 160 points. That's an immolator and a half, or a Chimera plus the squad it carries plus extra still.
Bright side, it's not a done deal if I don't run her; at least she can keep up with the tanks.
The rest of the list would probably be a Canoness with the deny relic for some psychic defense when they hop out of the tanks, 3x BSS with storm bolters, and like I said, the melta doms. Lastly, I'd like to cram an immolator or even repressor full of heavy flamer retributors; could stick a bolter girlie and a combi-melta on the sergeant for Holy Trinity, I guess? 4+ to-wound knights with 4 heavy flamers actually sounds scary for once.
Which Conviction are you looking at?
Also consider a Cannoess with a relic sword - she is 5 wounds, 2+ to hit, 3+/4++ and her sword is S5, -3AP, and straight 3 Damage. If she could get a storm shield and use a jump pack that would be good fun
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Unit1126PLL wrote: I have considered the relic sword, and might if I brought two canonesses (but 3CP :/).
It's why I want the eviscerator issue cleared up. Saves me 2CP and gives a weapon kinda sorta almost as good, a bit.
Yeah, I've had a prob with the Relic/Evis issue. I really want the two relics (Book and Brazier) but would love to get the blade in there too. It would be nice if Brazier wasn't order locked.
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Sorry if there is a rant in here somewhere but honestly I’ve been rather disappointed with the betadex since it came out. I’m a very competitive player and decided to run Sisters pure in some semi-competitive games the last 2 weekends. I wanted to give them a chance with as much of my lean-n-mean treatment as possible.
So here was my list:
6+++ Order
Celestine
Canoness SB, Power Maul, Warlord- 5++ trait, BoSL Canoness SB, Blade Admonition
1998 pts, 70 models (10 AoF), 15 CP, 12 or more drops
Basic setup-
7 Repressors blobbed up with Celestine giving 5++, Hospitaller and Blade Canoness ride with one of the Dom Repressors (I realize I can’t use Vanguard but whatevs)
3 Exos within 9” of Warlord in backfield
I’ve always run meched sisters due to mobility and that’s not gonna change for me, unfortunately it isn’t the most competitive build but due to not a lot of people expect it, it plays pretty well for me. I don’t build around using AoF at all, though to get the 7th AoF I only needed one more Dom so I did.
First turn i usually cluster my 7 Repressors around Celestine, who will roll for the +3” movement AoF then use Vessels to affect all my Repressors...so my Repressors move 12” plus advance plus 3” then everything inside shoots. With an average 18” movement I can get my Repressors where I need them.
Exorcists take care of any heavy threats while my girls in Repressors just take care of mobs. My game is move and retreat while moving to claim objectives.
While i get a tiny boost from the AoFs every once in a while it’s usually an afterthought and not a part of my planning. I’ve tried using the Passion on Celestine a few times only succeeding once, and really she’s just not the beat stick she used to be. Once my opponent wipes her out with shooting she resurrects on the same spot and they charge her and melee her to death, so really anyone who knows that trick will easily get rid of her, so I’ve found I attack something I need to weaken and then expect her to die.
The really only other AoF I use when it works is Divine Guidance on my Doms coupled with the Blessed Bolts strat. The rest of the AoFs are near useless, at least for my build.
Of the Strats, I use Vessels early for the aforementioned movement, and Blessed Bolts on my Doms primarily when they disembark. I also use Purity for anti-Psyker purposes, and infrequently Faith and Fury. The rest of my CPs are for rerolls.
Of 5 games the last 2 weeks I lost 2 and won 3, mostly due to players not knowing how my force works. Against competitive players that would go down to 5 losses as our girls simply don’t have the tools and AoFs add very little to our ability to dominate in any specific area.
Our Strats are meh but Vessels needs to change to not seem too overwhelming to opponents. I like Blessed Bolts as that can be very effective with all the SBs i carry.
I am glad Repressors were left alone as I like to charge stuff with them, disembark my girls and light things up.
So far, overall I give our beta dex a 3/10 for competitiveness
A 3/10 for our AoF system
A 7/10 for fluff
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/31 17:15:22
Unit1126PLL wrote: I have considered the relic sword, and might if I brought two canonesses (but 3CP :/).
It's why I want the eviscerator issue cleared up. Saves me 2CP and gives a weapon kinda sorta almost as good, a bit.
Yeah, I've had a prob with the Relic/Evis issue. I really want the two relics (Book and Brazier) but would love to get the blade in there too. It would be nice if Brazier wasn't order locked.
Actually, on reading it, it's very clear. The flowchart for using your Index wargear on Codex models says "use the most recently published points for your models, their weapons, and their wargear." So that'd be the 12 point Eviscerator from CA2017.
I think saving the CP and going with the Deny relic, while buying an Eviscerator on the CC canoness, is the best option imo.
EDIT: As for my Order, I am thinking Ebon Chalice. Technically, in the fluff for my army, we were Argent Shroud successors, but Argent Shroud is bad... should I go with Valourous Heart? I don't know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/31 17:16:53
This is the problem with the list: Sisters' tanks do not provide the increased durability to be worth their point cost, and that goes double now that the basic Sisters are at 4++ in the deathstar.
I’ve always run meched sisters due to mobility and that’s not gonna change for me
Most people playing Sisters were running mech sisters... the problem is that they geared the Betadex towards a completely different playstyle... which I cynically assume was to push the remaining metal sisters models out of their inventory and gauge interest in a plastic Basic Sisters Squad kit (at a jacked-up price).
Against competitive players that would go down to 5 losses as our girls simply don’t have the tools and AoFs add very little to our ability to dominate in any specific area.
For the competitive meta, Sisters lack the damage output to threaten to table the opponent, so you have to swing really hard to one side or the other to try to overload an aspect of a TAC list.
You can swing towards mech, which puts you firmly in the crosshairs of anti-knight includes, or you can swing towards swarm, which puts you in the anti-Ork waveclear includes.
The former does not give any upside, as the vehicles do not have any damage output other than the three Exorcists you're allowed to take, and therefore this is a bad decision.
The latter has stormbolters out the behind, and with Bloody Rose receiving Splash Passion, can present over a thousand S4 attacks per turn under optimal conditions, easily overwhelming any units that get caught by the swarm no matter what their save is; it can also easily bring down most anti-Ork includes under waves of bolter fire, and has a save profile that is unconcerned with low volume firepower.
It can't present a valid challenge to Knights, but quite simply, 150 bodies don't give a gak: a Castellan is only going to kill 10 a turn unless it suicides into the swarm, which ironically is the best thing it can do: charge as close to Celestine and the WL aura as possible, take the knee and get swarmed by the bees, then blow up and pray for at least a 5.
Basic setup-
7 Repressors blobbed up with Celestine giving 5++, Hospitaller and Blade Canoness ride with one of the Dom Repressors (I realize I can’t use Vanguard but whatevs)
3 Exos within 9” of Warlord in backfield
So Hospitaller's can't go in Repressors, they don't have the order keyword. It blows.
Good catch. I just took it to fill the 3rd elite slot and wouldn’t have made a difference in any of my games. In that case I’d just change the hospitaller to a dialogus and have her out near Celestine at the beginning of the game for reroll AoFs and let her foot slog.
This is the problem with the list: Sisters' tanks do not provide the increased durability to be worth their point cost, and that goes double now that the basic Sisters are at 4++ in the deathstar.
I’m my competitive play I’ve never had to use 4++ save on footsloggers. Who shoots AP -2 weapons at footslogging infantry??? Not only that, but what use is a blobbed up horde that can’t get to spread out objectives? Any competitive player will just stay away from the horde and claim objectives at distance from the horde.
And actually, T7 / T8 tanks with a 3+ /5++ / 6+++ can be quite survivable, especially as Repressors can get stuck in combat (and not totally suck) and have the Sisters inside shoot out at another opponent.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/31 20:16:24
I’m my competitive play I’ve never had to use 4++ save on footsloggers. Who shoots AP -2 weapons at footslogging infantry??? Not only that, but what use is a blobbed up horde that can’t get to spread out objectives? Any competitive player will just stay away from the horde and claim objectives at distance from the horde.
When you have 150 girls, you'll find that a lot more than just basic infantry weapons have to be aimed at them to stand any reasonable chance of clearing them before they envelope the board.
Two sets of 15 basic sisters in a staggered line can span eighty-four inches in width (wider than the board).
Assume that you're playing on a 4x6, that means even on Dawn of War, you can span between the objectives (the objectives are 36" apart, meaning a 0.28" gap between each girl), four girls deep.
And actually, T7 / T8 tanks with a 3+ /5++ / 6+++ can be quite survivable, especially as Repressors can get stuck in combat (and not totally suck) and have the Sisters inside shoot out at another opponent.
They don't get the 6+++; Orders don't apply to anything which doesn't have the Infantry keyword.
Got a game in recently against Tau using the new CA18 eternal war missions at 1500pts.
Opponent called it bottom of turn 3 when all he had left was a riptide on 1 wound, ghostkeel on 2 wounds, 3 crisis suits, a squad if markerlight pathfinders and about 5 markerlight drones.
Id taken Bloody Rose conviction and decided to go with Righteous Rage trait on my BoA cannoness. At no point in the game did i think "gee i could really do with a 5++ or even that 4++. The girls were going down to ap0 weapons, no 4++ helps there. I kinda feel the castle/deathstar could be a bit of a trap at times. Depends on your meta i suppose.
General impressions. Faith was a bit blah. I never found myself searching for units to use it on to capitalise an opportunity, if anything i was just using them just to say i had used them.
Got Divine Guidance off on cannoness turn 1 and Vesseld it onto 3 exorcists. It was nice and netted me a couple extra hits, but i dont see myself going out of my way to pull it off again- especially in a lower point game as this, felt very CP starved after that and used most remaining CP on rerolls before even getting a chance to use holy trinity or blessed bolts.
Had a squad of 10 bss reduced to 3 models in first turn. Failed Light twice (CP reroll) and they vanished.
Id say all our faith abilities have a place except for Hand and Guidance. Hand is borderline why even bother/waste of FP and while Guidance +1bs is nice, i wasnt excited for units to use it on (still feel it needs to improve ap by 1 on 6s to wound in addition to the +1bs; thatd make me and my flamers happy).
Repentia without the mistress are terribad. They really need a zealot rule built into them to be useful on their own and give the mistress something else to replace the reroll she gives them.
6 repentia got into combat with the ghostkeel and after hitting on 4s with no rerolls and wounding on 3s, they only did 2 damage out of 18 attacks.
I had kept the repentia in my deployment zone as a counter charge unit as i was anticipating the crisis suits to drop in to wreck my exorcists. That didnt happen but it felt nice to have a potential counter there.
Exorcists. In my opinion: Fixed! Awesome! That D6 damage has been the long awated answer to a long asked prayer. These guys stole the show in the game. They were celebrating D6 damage too because every one of them fired no less than 5 shots each turn.
Turn one; one popped a pirahna in a single volley and another reduced the riptide to 6 wounds in its volley and that was after 2 shots got passed off onto blasted shield drones. It feels so good to roll a 6 on the damage dice and it meaning 6 and not 3.
Opponent terrified of Exorcists after that, burned cp every turn after that to heal up and invo up his riptide.
Turn 2 and the exorcists continued to ruin the riptides day, clearing out the last of its shield drones and landinf some more damage through the invo.
Another exorcist popped a devilfish in a single volley.
Crisis suits then came on and opponent went to painful lengths to make sure exos couldnt see them anywhere.
Gotta say this for the pipe organ exorcist. That beauty is tall and can see over a hell of a lot of stuff
BoA cannoness with Righteous Rage is noice. Everything hitting and everything wounding his commander in combat turned him into swiss cheese. I did get Passion off on her here but didnt need the 2nd round of attacks.
Seraphim hand flamers being d6 hits is good against anything under T4. They did good work against firewarriors. Burning descent is okay fir them but my bolt pistol dice were running cold (hand flamers consistently did more damage than bolt pistols).
Arco flaggelants didnt get a chance to shine. Because, you know, tau overwatch.
2 got into combat with fire warriors and after using the strat for the sake of using it they had 12 attacks and took down 4 fire warriors.
Warriors were on a building so i couldnt do the usual charge in with rhino. I know tau was a bad match up fir them with their overwatch shenenigans but im thinking maybe throwing in an inquisitor with the terrify power for that extra chance of overwatch survival.
Their change to FNP makes sense, but gosh multi damage weapons lay the hurt on them.
Overall an interesting game. Had a lot of push and shove in the middle table for the characters to claim the objective.
Took Celestians along just because. Didnt get a chance to do much. Finished off a couple of firewarriors in combat. I intended to use blessed bolts on them but ran out of CP. Id like to see blessed bolts or rather a toned down version be a natural part of their data entry just to make them something over bss. Even +1 to faith rolls would be something.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: These guys stole the show in the game. They were celebrating D6 damage too because every one of them fired no less than 5 shots each turn.
Such is the way of the exorcists. Sometimes they do the damage of six lascannons. Sometimes... they don't.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Got a game in recently against Tau using the new CA18 eternal war missions at 1500pts.
Opponent called it bottom of turn 3 when all he had left was a riptide on 1 wound, ghostkeel on 2 wounds, 3 crisis suits, a squad if markerlight pathfinders and about 5 markerlight drones.
Id taken Bloody Rose conviction and decided to go with Righteous Rage trait on my BoA cannoness. At no point in the game did i think "gee i could really do with a 5++ or even that 4++. The girls were going down to ap0 weapons, no 4++ helps there. I kinda feel the castle/deathstar could be a bit of a trap at times. Depends on your meta i suppose.
I've found that it's kind of useless on most Sisters until you get into melee, but is great on Rhinos. If you're going pure footsloggers, don't bother, but if you're castling with a wave of Rhinos that are rolling forward it's excellent.
Yeah i can see it being beneficial to vehicles. Visually funny to see a circle of vehicles around a cannoness and celestine. Thats about it though.
Just not a fan on how much it feels our army depends on aura buffs from our few characters to supposedly function.
Outside of nids, i font know of another army that will be guarding their characters so jealously (my knowledge is limited mind you). Snipers (especially vindicare) i feel will be a big shutdown.
Has anyone tried Repressor (because who uses rhinos?) Rush wuth large squads and trying a turn 2+ disembark further up field and benefiting from cannoness auras from that point?
Who shoots AP -2 weapons at footslogging infantry???
Last two games - all the Necron warriors as they had the dynasty that has the extra -1AP at short range - so that hurt.
And Sternguard with special bolt rounds was also annoying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/01 11:26:37
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Giantwalkingchair wrote: At no point in the game did i think "gee i could really do with a 5++ or even that 4++. The girls were going down to ap0 weapons, no 4++ helps there.
It's why The Pink Tide is a gatekeeper list: it's capable of sweeping up other infantry, and then overwhelming the opponent's high quality shooting.
Got Divine Guidance off on cannoness turn 1 and Vesseld it onto 3 exorcists. It was nice and netted me a couple extra hits, but i dont see myself going out of my way to pull it off again- especially in a lower point game as this,
Vessel scales exponentially better in the deathstar, because it splashes onto 10+ units. Divine Guidance may not be the most effective, because you are only getting ~20% more hits (assuming Canoness is in the bubble as well), but for The Passion, it doubles your output.
Had a squad of 10 bss reduced to 3 models in first turn. Failed Light twice (CP reroll) and they vanished.
Bringing Uriah Jacobus gives them a 4+ Feel No Fear save, as well as increasing their leadership by 1. Dialogus also increases their leadership by 1. So deathstars have 10 LD, Faith save with free reroll, 4+ FNF, and then can spend 1 CP to reduce the number of models that actually flee by half.
In the expected Sisters Beta Codex fashion, that equates to a pantload of bookkeeping and time wasting to say virtual moral immunity.
Id say all our faith abilities have a place except for Hand and Guidance. Hand is borderline why even bother/waste of FP and while Guidance +1bs is nice, i wasnt excited for units to use it on (still feel it needs to improve ap by 1 on 6s to wound in addition to the +1bs; thatd make me and my flamers happy).
Divine Guidance's primary target right now is whichever stormbolter squad you're using Blessed Bolts on. Giving an additional -1 AP on 6s would turn Blessed Bolts into a legitimate anti-tank weapon, and using it on splashed Vessels would turn The Pink Tide into 300 heavy bolter shots a turn (unless it's only natural 6s).
Repentia without the mistress are terribad. They really need a zealot rule built into them to be useful on their own and give the mistress something else to replace the reroll she gives them.
6 repentia got into combat with the ghostkeel and after hitting on 4s with no rerolls and wounding on 3s, they only did 2 damage out of 18 attacks.
Repentia are just bad. If they had a way to slingshot themselves into combat on turn 1, or to guarantee a deepstrike into combat on turn 2, they'd be passable; but as it is, their only saves come from the deathstar, which makes them at extreme risk to dying from any form of overwatch, and they're dependent on MULTIPLE support characters to achieve cost-efficiency with their point cost even if they started the game in combat.
Exorcists. In my opinion: Fixed! Awesome! That D6 damage has been the long awated answer to a long asked prayer. These guys stole the show in the game. They were celebrating D6 damage too because every one of them fired no less than 5 shots each turn.
Yes, when you use weighted dice to eliminate randomness, units which are throttled by randomness are actually really good.
But in all seriousness though, Exorcists are probably where they're supposed to be, if they were 2d3 shots, or ideally, 4d3 shots that did each did 1d3 damage (eliminating most of the randomness).
Any merit to a missionary with eviscerator? Mostly considering it because I have a model for it, but an eviscerator is better on a BR character for the extra S. But with Zealot... maybe?
I’m my competitive play I’ve never had to use 4++ save on footsloggers. Who shoots AP -2 weapons at footslogging infantry??? Not only that, but what use is a blobbed up horde that can’t get to spread out objectives? Any competitive player will just stay away from the horde and claim objectives at distance from the horde.
When you have 150 girls, you'll find that a lot more than just basic infantry weapons have to be aimed at them to stand any reasonable chance of clearing them before they envelope the board.
Two sets of 15 basic sisters in a staggered line can span eighty-four inches in width (wider than the board).
Assume that you're playing on a 4x6, that means even on Dawn of War, you can span between the objectives (the objectives are 36" apart, meaning a 0.28" gap between each girl), four girls deep.
And actually, T7 / T8 tanks with a 3+ /5++ / 6+++ can be quite survivable, especially as Repressors can get stuck in combat (and not totally suck) and have the Sisters inside shoot out at another opponent.
They don't get the 6+++; Orders don't apply to anything which doesn't have the Infantry keyword.
Yeah, but like...so? That's 1555 points minimum, before weapon upgrades and we could do that before. The only difference between that blob now and that blob in the index in is that we went from a 5++ to a 4++ and Vessels. Vessels is weak and all the 4++ does is make the list slower and make weapons that already weren't very good at clearing basic battle sisters 17% worse.
It'll beat armies that aren't built to deal with hordes, because it's a horde. Against armies that have decent horde clearing ability, you're mostly relying on slowplay.
MacPhail wrote: Any merit to a missionary with eviscerator? Mostly considering it because I have a model for it, but an eviscerator is better on a BR character for the extra S. But with Zealot... maybe?
The priest offshoots have no Index entries, and are thus limited to their Beta Dex wargear options.
No, Vessels is weak for everything except The Pink Tide because the only situation where it's ever worth 3 CP is if you're splashing The Passion.
Even if The Passion doesn't work RAW and gets FAQ-nerfed to only affecting units which are in combat, it's still the reason The Pink Tide is a legitimate threat:
Imagine a situation where you can charge even just 15 basic sisters. With Bloody Rose, that's 32 S4 attacks. With The Passion, it's 64 S4 attacks: that's 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath.
So splashing The Passion turns your army into BS3 Shoota Boyz with Warpath and 3+/4++. That's a pretty real hurdle for some lists. Yeah, it still goes down to anti-horde shooting, but it itself is anti-horde shooting, so unless that anti-horde is coming from Punisher Russes screened by hundreds of guardsmen, you're going to overwhelm it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/02 21:42:43
No, Vessels is weak for everything except The Pink Tide because the only situation where it's ever worth 3 CP is if you're splashing The Passion.
Even if The Passion doesn't work RAW and gets FAQ-nerfed to only affecting units which are in combat, it's still the reason The Pink Tide is a legitimate threat:
Imagine a situation where you can charge even just 15 basic sisters. With Bloody Rose, that's 32 S4 attacks. With The Passion, it's 64 S4 attacks: that's 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath.
So splashing The Passion turns your army into BS3 Shoota Boyz with Warpath and 3+/4++. That's a pretty real hurdle for some lists. Yeah, it still goes down to anti-horde shooting, but it itself is anti-horde shooting, so unless that anti-horde is coming from Punisher Russes screened by hundreds of guardsmen, you're going to overwhelm it.
The problem I'm seeing is relying on a 5+. Even a 5+ with a reroll is only about a 55% chance of success.
You have a 55% chance of being 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath. Not remotely the same thing.
No, Vessels is weak for everything except The Pink Tide because the only situation where it's ever worth 3 CP is if you're splashing The Passion.
Even if The Passion doesn't work RAW and gets FAQ-nerfed to only affecting units which are in combat, it's still the reason The Pink Tide is a legitimate threat:
Imagine a situation where you can charge even just 15 basic sisters. With Bloody Rose, that's 32 S4 attacks. With The Passion, it's 64 S4 attacks: that's 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath.
So splashing The Passion turns your army into BS3 Shoota Boyz with Warpath and 3+/4++. That's a pretty real hurdle for some lists. Yeah, it still goes down to anti-horde shooting, but it itself is anti-horde shooting, so unless that anti-horde is coming from Punisher Russes screened by hundreds of guardsmen, you're going to overwhelm it.
All I read was 'we can spend more points and CP to turn our BSS squad into a slower version of an unoptimized ork unit.'
deviantduck wrote: All I read was 'we can spend more points and CP to turn our BSS squad into a slower version of an unoptimized ork unit.'
Don't forget the FP resource usage, crippling positional limitations, significant telegraphing that your opponent can interrupt, listbuilding restrictions that require the warlord trait, and a base 45% chance to just straight up fail.
deviantduck wrote: All I read was 'we can spend more points and CP to turn our BSS squad into a slower version of an unoptimized ork unit.'
This. Taking a horde of models that have always been terrible in hth doesn't make them good just because you have a small chance to make them fight twice. 2 x 0 is still zero...
Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.
MacPhail wrote: Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.
MacPhail wrote: Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.
Four flamers and a melta is still not optimized, though. Instead of optimizing for a strategem or optimizing for vanilla usage, you're doing neither and running a unit that underperforms in all camps.
MacPhail wrote: Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.
Four flamers and a melta is still not optimized, though. Instead of optimizing for a strategem or optimizing for vanilla usage, you're doing neither and running a unit that underperforms in all camps.
I wouldn't claim optimized... but the opposite combi isn't terrible in terms of versatility as it gives enough punch to finish off something heavy (combi melta) or offers a little deterrent to assault (combi flamer). I never ran matching combis pre-CA18 (the 5-melta Dominion, etc.), so I don't really miss them, and these have been useful so far. With a short-ranged army like ours, there's usually something appropriate to split fire to... I've never had to shoot combi meltas at ork infantry or anything like that. I've really been enjoying my HF Retributers w/ combi melta, although HFs being heavy rather than assault now is a burden. I guess my main point is if you would have run with 5 girls in the name of points efficiency, adding a sixth isn't strictly necessary to unlock Holy Trinity.
MacPhail wrote: Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.
Four flamers and a melta is still not optimized, though. Instead of optimizing for a strategem or optimizing for vanilla usage, you're doing neither and running a unit that underperforms in all camps.
I wouldn't claim optimized... but the opposite combi isn't terrible in terms of versatility as it gives enough punch to finish off something heavy (combi melta) or offers a little deterrent to assault (combi flamer). I never ran matching combis pre-CA18 (the 5-melta Dominion, etc.), so I don't really miss them, and these have been useful so far. With a short-ranged army like ours, there's usually something appropriate to split fire to... I've never had to shoot combi meltas at ork infantry or anything like that. I've really been enjoying my HF Retributers w/ combi melta, although HFs being heavy rather than assault now is a burden. I guess my main point is if you would have run with 5 girls in the name of points efficiency, adding a sixth isn't strictly necessary to unlock Holy Trinity.
That's fair...more or less, I still disagree with taking non-matching combi-weapons, but that's more of a subjective/playstyle thing.
It still doesn't address that holy trinity isn't really worth using in and of itself. Even in situations like this, an intelligent CP reroll on a melta damage roll or a flamer # of shots will get you more value for the same CP most of the time.
MacPhail wrote: Any merit to a missionary with eviscerator? Mostly considering it because I have a model for it, but an eviscerator is better on a BR character for the extra S. But with Zealot... maybe?
The priest offshoots have no Index entries, and are thus limited to their Beta Dex wargear options.
No, Vessels is weak for everything except The Pink Tide because the only situation where it's ever worth 3 CP is if you're splashing The Passion.
Even if The Passion doesn't work RAW and gets FAQ-nerfed to only affecting units which are in combat, it's still the reason The Pink Tide is a legitimate threat:
Imagine a situation where you can charge even just 15 basic sisters. With Bloody Rose, that's 32 S4 attacks. With The Passion, it's 64 S4 attacks: that's 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath.
So splashing The Passion turns your army into BS3 Shoota Boyz with Warpath and 3+/4++. That's a pretty real hurdle for some lists. Yeah, it still goes down to anti-horde shooting, but it itself is anti-horde shooting, so unless that anti-horde is coming from Punisher Russes screened by hundreds of guardsmen, you're going to overwhelm it.
Battle sisters hit on 4s, it costs a lot in CP, the only way you'll get charge priority is if your opponent is a doof,it has a 42% chance to fail unless you're planning on giving up one of your good at combat models, 3 CP, and a bunch of points out of the blob to take it up to 25% chance to fail, the fact that not the entire army is actually going to get to fight twice(even with creative interpretation of the rules). They also have much more freedom to move around. You can string your models a deceptively long way, but if you attack the center of the blob, you can kill the front layer and have plenty of movement to consolidate into the second and deny BR on the following turn.
64 S4 hits isn't terrible, but them hitting on 4s and not having any guarantee that 'The Passion' will go off hurts. Then there's the whole 'speed' thing.
The slow, unwieldy nature of these lists and still frankly uninspiring damage output leave even the combat oriented lists very vulnerable to CQC by armies that are just better than it. The Passion is only usable in YOUR fight phase, so if you get charged(and you will, the list is glacially slow, even if you do use CP on Vessels Hand of the Emperor) you don't get the Bloody Rose bonus for The Passion so you're looking at an incredibly small amount of damage.The pink tide falls down when it's charged by something that can do decent damage in a single turn (like those shoota boyz you mentioned earlier) or by something tough enough to survive into the next turn.
Against other Horde lists you're hoping against hope that they try to play cautious and keep you at a bit of a distance. You will absolutely shred them given about 2 turns of bolter/stormbolter shooting but in a straight up mano y mano, horde V horde throwdown, if they don't fail their charge and survive the first round of combat the game's basically over. Like with most Sisters of Battle list, you're relying a fair amount on your opponent not knowing what your army does and making mistakes to take wins.
deviantduck wrote: All I read was 'we can spend more points and CP to turn our BSS squad into a slower version of an unoptimized ork unit.'
Don't forget the FP resource usage, crippling positional limitations, significant telegraphing that your opponent can interrupt, listbuilding restrictions that require the warlord trait, and a base 45% chance to just straight up fail.
Huh, I've never seen someone destroy their own argument that thoroughly. I legitimately had to recheck the name like 4-5 times.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/04 07:19:42
BSS (5)
2x stormbolters VSS: Stormbolter, Power Axe, Inferno pistol
BSS (5)
2x stormbolters VSS: Stormbolter, Power Axe, Inferno pistol
Mistress and Repentia (8)
Preacher w/chainsword
Seraphim (9)
4x Inferno pistols VSS: Plasma pistol, power sword
Repressor
2x stormbolters
Rhino
stormbolter
Deathguard
Spoiler:
Chaos Lord Equivilent Not sure on equipment.
Chaos Sorcerer
Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality
Poxbringer.
Fleshy Abundance
9 Plague marines
3 plasma guns
5 plague marines
1 plasma gun
10 cultists
14 pox walkers
Helbrute
Multi-melta, DCCW
Bloat Drone
Twin Plague Spitters
10 Plague Bearers
We played Secure and Control, using the Search and Destroy map.
Spoiler:
Deployment: I set up a bit back from my deployment zone, in cover of some ruins, more to keep his line of sight off of either transport with his whole force. I put the Repentia, mistress, and preacher in the rhino, and one stormbolter squad and the melta squad in the repressor. Both Canoness and Celestine were between the two tanks, and the third Stormbolter squad sat in some ruins off to the side. The seraphim were in reserve to counter his plague bearers.
He deployed his pox walkers right on the edge of his deployment zone, with the nine man PM unit on his right the five man on the left, the Drone and Helbrute were flanking the pox walkers, left and right respectively. The cultists were in the very back, just in long range for their auto-guns, and the PB's were in reserve. His 'lord' and demon psyker were right behind the pox walkers, with the sorcerer further back.
He went first.
1st turn. He wasn't close enough to move and charge.
He moved everything forward and attempted to give his Pox Walkers +1 S/T. He failed, then tried the -1 to hit power on the larger PM unit, which I denied. Everything in range shot at the repressor. Everything failed, except two bolter shots.
I moved forward with everything, staying in transports.
My melta squad and both canonness destroyed the Helbrute, and the two vehicles and two stormbolter squads killed nine pox walkers.
2nd Turn. He moved forward again, with the pox walkers, drone, Demon psyker, and 'lord'. Everything else held it's place. Plague bearers dropped in behind me, on my objective.
He buffed the walkers with Putrescent Vitality, but I denied it. He succeeded at casting Miasma of Pestilence on the larger PM unit. He smited My repressor, rolled three MW, and Aegis only stopped one of them.
For shooting, he fired everything but the drone at the Repressor. I managed to save against all the plasma, but he almost killed it with bolters, leaving it at one wound. The drone fired on the rhino, but didn't hurt it. He didn't charge with his Pox Walkers, which were his only units in reliable charge range.
I dismounted the everyone from the rhino and moved forward as far as I could with everything. The Rhino was almost on top of the drone, the repentia/mistress, celestine, and both canonness right in front of the pox walkers. The foot stormbolter squad about six inches behind them, and flanking them was the repressor. The seraphim dropped as close to the plague bearers as they could.
Shooting, the repressor, both stormbolters squads, the rhino, both cannoness, and celestine finished off the pox walkers. He made a lot of resilience saves. The melta squad killed his lord with melta guns. The seraphim had used The shoot after you drop stratagem, killing three plague bearers, but I forgot to shoot again during the actual shooting phase. No this wouldn't haunt me...
I wanted to try vessels, so I used passion on the mistress (with a CP to reroll). This affected everything but the repressor, and the seraphim.
The rhino charged the drone, soaking up it's overwatch, and took a wound. Both Canonness and Celestine charged his Poxbringer, but my WL failed her charge, and the repentia, mistress and preacher charged the drone. It took two rounds of fighting to kill the drone (he made a lot of resilience saves again), as did the Poxbringer, lasting through one round of Celestine and a power axe canonness, only for Celestine to kill him on the 2nd go. He used a stratagem to make his drone explode when it died, dealing a mortal wound to everything in 12". This killed the repressor, which ended up killing two sisters from the melta squad. Also put a wound on both canonness, Celestine, the mistress and the preacher.
The cannoness stayed where she was, while the repentia and co and Celestine consolidated forward. I left Celestine out front as bait.
3rd Turn.
He moved his plague bearers up to the seraphim, and backed up with everything else.
I denied all of his powers.
He fired all of his plasma at Celestine, all of his bolters at the SB/BSS that had been in the repressor, and all of his autoguns at the repentia.
I didn't make a singe save for Celestine. He killed three BSS's, and three repentia. Celestine came back at the end of shooting.
Plague bearers charged the seraphim, who killed one on overwatch. He didn't kill any sisters, while the sisters killed five (!) demons in melee.
Everyone passed their battle shock.
I used hand on the repentia to increase their speed, and light on the SB/BSS to bring back a stormbolter. Everything moved forward, with the seraphim withdrawing to sit on my objective. The mistress and preacher advanced to keep up with the repentia.
The seraphim finished off the last plague bearer. The SB/BSS closest to him used blessed bolts, but flubbed their wound rolls. Celestine and both canonness, combined with the 2nd SB/BSS (in the back) and the melta squad killed all nine of the larger PM squad. The rhino shot and killed a plague marine in the five man unit.
The repentia charged the last plague marines, still in range of their mistress. They survived the overwatch, and killed all four plague marines. Celestine failed her charge on the sorcerer.
4th Turn.
He moved his cultists forward, and the sorcerer back.
I denied all of his power attempts again.
He fired a bolt pistol at a SB/BSS, but failed to wound. The cultists finished off the repentia, killing exactly all of them after saves.
I closed in with everything. (his cultists were sitting on his objective).
The melta squad killed the sorcerer with melta guns (I used guidance for the boost), and the rhino, preacher, and mistress finished off the cultists with a stormbolter and frag grenades.
I ended up running him over. Even with good rolls from resilience I had enough shooting to just overwhelm him. He did make a few mistakes, such as retreating, rather than closing on me, and that let me systematically tear apart chunks of his army. I actually like the acts of faith overall, but I feel like they need to either be more accessible, aka with more faith points, or a regenerating stock pile and to use more than one of each a turn. If they're going to limit it to the amount we have now, they need to make them automatic.
Vessels feels like a trap now that I've used it. While it did have an "Oh Crap!" factor for my opponent, it still ate up four out of seven CP that I had, and to only a small benefit. And that's after it hit almost my entire army. Part of the is the sheer number of resilience saves he made in that round, but it really didn't have a huge outcome on the game.
