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All averages include chance of failure to perform the AoF.
Divine Guidance, Canoness, Dialogus, Similacrum, EC:
12 bolter, 3 storm bolters, all rapid fire range: 34.796 dead MEQ per game
Just the Canoness, any other order: 25.857 dead MEQ/game.
So that's 40 points + an order conviction to kill 1.5 space Marines a turn. For +11 points I can instead get 5 Battle Sisters with 3 storm bolters and kill 2MEQ a turn (including Canoness rerolls) and get a better order conviction.
Spirit of the Martyr: average +1 model (9pts) returned per game, assuming no Dialogus.
The Passion: we've done extensive work him this one elsewhere. TL;DR, Bloody Rose without a Similacrum or Dialogus > Ebon Chalice with both
Hand of the Emperor: 40pts + Order conviction to average 2.97" of movement per turn vs 1.5 baseline
Aegis is a 5+ FNP versus psychic mortal wounds base once you factor in the test. Conviction + Dialogus OR Similacrum + Dialogus shifts it to almost 4+. Worth it against the right armies.
Light is hard to quantify because you don't know in advance how many models might be fleeing. Even then, we have upwards of 8 ways to mitigate morale.
This seems like the argument that always claimed immolators are worse than repressors because of damage per turn calculations from four dominions vs. the lone twin linked melta. It always ignored the points you spent on that tactic, it ignored other weapon options, and it assumed static situations. And I'm not sure why you left out Divine guidance since it's one of the best choices for a mid range gunline army dependent on melta.
And much like the awful warp pool fiasco where people mixed up probability and statistics. Yes, the statistics say Martyr is +1 model per game, but that's over thousands of dice rolls to get that average. If you are banking on 4-6 3+ rolls going your way you are going to have a very inconsistent time compared to 2+ in that small of a sample size. (Or vice versa of course lol.) If you are playing a low model count mechanized army, like MANY sisters players do, Ebon Chalice is a very nice trait to have.
Also, and I mean this whole heartily, you bring up very good points on bloody rose for foot based armies that I agree with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 17:36:14
Simplified, a 15 model ECBSS with Dialogus, Similacrum and Canoness buffs to Divine Guidance fiting 12 bolters and 3 storm bolters (all rapid fire) puts less damage than the same squad changing out the Dialogus, order conviction and Similacrum to 5 more Battle Sisters armed with two bolters and 3 storm bolters (only the blob buffed by Divine Guidance) for 11 more points.
5.74 dead MEQ a turn vs 7.32
I've also simulated the data and the ECBSS with full buffs has the greatest concentration of damage at 4-7 unsaved wounds per turn while the other setup's concentration is around the 6-10 damage per turn mark with just Divine Guidance on a 4+ and a Canoness.
All of this data included chance of failure on the Act's part so sometimes the 15 BSS is hitting on 2s with a reroll while other times it's hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can only use imgur to get SSs of my Sims but...
Ebon Chalice BSS with 3 SB + 12 bolters, full buffs, rapid fire:
14.66% chance to deal between 0 and 3 damage
64.12% chance to deal between 4 and 7 damage
20.37% chance to deal between 8 and 11 damage
00.85% chance to deal 12+
Any other order BSS with 3 SB + 12 bolters, Canoness and Divine Guidance, plus 5 BS with 3 SB + 2 bolters buffed only by Canoness. All rapid firing:
13.68% chance to deal between 0 and 4 damage
66.68% chance to deal between 5 and 9 damage
18.02% chance to deal between 10 and 13 damage
1.47% chance to deal 14+
More damage, 11 more points. This despite being 47.2% less likely to get Divine Guidance off.
I can compare mis size squads as well if you want. EC will lose out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/08 19:02:40
The math you're doing is that Divine Guidance sucks and shouldn't be built around because it's not worth it.
That is already known information.
It would be better to run the numbers with Ebon Chalice using the exact same setup you would use with any other Order, and you'll find that EC's ranged damage output is sliiightly higher (maybe 5% for the one squad being targeted for Divine Guidance).
Then you look at Bloody Rose and you realize that there really isn't anything +5% to hit can do in comparison to more than doubling your damage output in melee with BR, especially not when The Passion is still a compounding force-multiplier.
Actually, if you want to get down to the brass tacks, Acts of Faith aren't worth it in general. It takes playing Hordes for Divine Guidance and the Passion to potentially be worthwhile yet:
1. our short ranges mean MSU is the better style to run, with transports getting us close to our objectives/targets before obliterating them with concentrated firepower
2. MSU or blob, Bloody Rose benefits more from the Passion than EC ever will
3. if you're playing Blob, Sacred Rose becomes the better option because of mitigated morale and 5+ overwatch with large squads.
If you don't take full buffs beyond a canoness and Divine Guidance, a blob of 15 ECBS with storm bolters kills 5.44 MEQ/turn. The same blob with any other order conviction kills 5.25.
Over a 6-turn game, that's 1.16 MEQ killed for +1 to your AoF rolls. For our largest squad.
For Immolator-sized squads of 5, you just barely net 0.5 MEQ/game.
Against MEQ, the EC squad of 15 sisters (12 bolters, 3 storm bolters, rapid fire) nets between 3 and 7 unsaved wounds 75.11% of that time. The majority of those are in the 4-6 range (50.65%).
The other orders? Net almost identical damage numbers:
* 75.69% of the time you inflict between 3 and 7 unsaved wounds.
* 51.23% of the time you inflict between 4 and 6.
So our largest squad in terms of raw firepower, under optimal conditions, is being given a +17% chance to succeed at a roll for...
a 1% increased chance of doing the same damage as a different Order Conviction against Marines?
Want the data for other armies?
Vs Orks
* EC: 50.36% of doing 9-12 damage
* Others: 49.36% chance of doing 9-12 damage
Vs. T3, 5+
* EC: 63.60% chance of 12-17 damage, 44.55% chance of 13-16 damage
* Others: 62.13% chance of 12-17 damage, 44.01% chance of 13-16 damage BUT the highest probabilities are between 12-16 damage (54.50%)
Vs T3, 4+
* EC: 49.64% chance of 9-12 damage
* Others: 49.63% chance of 9-12 damage
Smaller unit sizes also don't get much of a benefit from Ebon Chalice. For example, 5 storm bolter dominions w/o Blessed bolts vs T3, 5+:
* EC: 75.50% chance of 4-8 damage, 51.33% chance of 5-7 damage
* Others: 75.16% chance of 4-8 damage, 50.33% chance of 5-7 damage.
5 Battle Sisters vs same targets, 2 bolters, 3 storm bolters:
* EC: 52.11% chance of 5-7 damage
* Other: 51.84% chance of 5-7 damage
Honestly? I'd rather take something that's going to do more like Bloody Rose or Sacred Rose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 23:56:15
I'm just an interloper passing through, but I was trying to figure out a nice way to run a Celestine Cathedral-type Outrider as a smaller component of an Imperium army.
But then I saw this entire discussion about Acts of Faith, which is bizarrely over-complicated. To throw in my two credits:
Chance for to hit with Divine Guidance factored in:
EB: (2/3)(5/6)+(1/3)(2/3) = 0.77
EB': (1/2)(5/6)+(1/2)(2/3) = 0.75
In summary, EB sucks and Acts of Faith suck. If you are going to command reroll something, rerolling the hit roll itself will produce much better results. But hey, they are essentially free, so less whining, more praying.
MSUs with Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose seem to me to be the best choices.
So the MSUs protect a Celestine advance with 3++ bodies. The full-sized unit can drop in to ruin a unit of Dark Reapers' day or further reinforce the advance. Geminae is supposed to just carry the relic and move very fast; she isn't supposed to actually bodyguard for Celestine. Any thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 06:50:19
Suzuteo wrote: So the MSUs protect a Celestine advance with 3++ bodies. Any thoughts?
My impressions so far are that stacked inv save bonuses are nice on the first turn but that trying to hold your units together to keep them as the game goes on can hinder you, with units being slowed down and oddly placed trying to keep coherency.
And at the end of the day Celestine is just an under-equipped daemon prince, she'll put a dent in things but not enough to warrant sacrificing your army to protect. If she and the seraphim were helping to screen a trio of jump-canoness units it would be a different question as that blob would do some real damage.
Suzuteo wrote: So the MSUs protect a Celestine advance with 3++ bodies. Any thoughts?
My impressions so far are that stacked inv save bonuses are nice on the first turn but that trying to hold your units together to keep them as the game goes on can hinder you, with units being slowed down and oddly placed trying to keep coherency.
And at the end of the day Celestine is just an under-equipped daemon prince, she'll put a dent in things but not enough to warrant sacrificing your army to protect. If she and the seraphim were helping to screen a trio of jump-canoness units it would be a different question as that blob would do some real damage.
Well, that's the thing. You actually don't need to keep them together the entire time. Just as long as the Seraphim are in front of Celestine, the concept works.
And to be clear, this is just a 500 point detachment. The rest of the army is a Knight or AdMech or something with serious firepower.
What is a Jump-Canoness? I didn't know Canonesses could take Jump Packs at all...?
Suzuteo wrote: Well, that's the thing. You actually don't need to keep them together the entire time. Just as long as the Seraphim are in front of Celestine, the concept works.
Seraphim infront of celestine have a 5++ save.
It's 4++ if they are clumped with celestine (easy enough, though watch the limited range of the inferno pistols)
To get the 3++ you need the canoness, on foot, running after them in 6" coherency with at least one model from each unit.
Suzuteo wrote: What is a Jump-Canoness? I didn't know Canonesses could take Jump Packs at all...?
Longstanding HQ choice until she was killed off as a choice by Cruddace in the white dwarf codex, though the cheap immortal 5e celestine served as something of a replacement.
WH lists typically had a pair of jump canoness models rolling a 2++ save up the board (by 2004 standards they were one of the more durable and dangerous HQs in the game), or an entirely unarmed canoness in one of the celestians immolators trying to get herself killed for extra faith points.
So the MSUs protect a Celestine advance with 3++ bodies. The full-sized unit can drop in to ruin a unit of Dark Reapers' day or further reinforce the advance. Geminae is supposed to just carry the relic and move very fast; she isn't supposed to actually bodyguard for Celestine. Any thoughts?
Valorous Heart isn't very good, either. 6+ FNP on one wound models is tedious at best and I had a situation arise in my game on Saturday that slowed play down for a bit as both my opponent and I had 6+ FNPs to roll one wound at a time because of the potential of only killing one model. Also, tanks don't benefit from Order Convictions, so no 6+ FNP on the models that would most benefit from it.
Ultimately I think I passed a total of 2FNP rolls the entire game
I've been debating going from Bloody Rose to Scared Rose for the 5+ Overwatch and the only lose one from Moral but I'm not sure it's worth the trade off in damage output.
With a large blob it might be worth it but Light of Emperor helps a lot and 2 attacks at s4 is a really good charge deterrent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 16:00:29
MSUs with Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose seem to me to be the best choices.
Valorous Heart isn't very good, either. 6+ FNP on one wound models is tedious at best and I had a situation arise in my game on Saturday that slowed play down for a bit as both my opponent and I had 6+ FNPs to roll one wound at a time because of the potential of only killing one model. Also, tanks don't benefit from Order Convictions, so no 6+ FNP on the models that would most benefit from it.
Ultimately I think I passed a total of 2FNP rolls the entire game
I've had reasonably good luck with Valorous Heart. You can't exactly count on it to keep your army on the board, but it does disrupt your opponent's allocation of attacks. I probably passed 8-10 FNPs in a recent game... of course, I was losing Sisters hand over fist to high volume attacks to make that possible. Several times an opponent thought his shooting allocations were more than enough to wipe an MSU squad off the board, only to have the last member pop back up and require additional dice. It also saved a few key special or heavy weapon models, and with Spirit of the Martyr turning one left standing into two, there were occasions when he'd reduce a Dominion squad to zero models during his turn, and thanks to FNP and SotM there were two melta guns standing there on my turn.
I can't argue with tedious, though... that's the new flavor of playing Sisters for sure.
Rynner wrote: I've been debating going from Bloody Rose to Scared Rose for the 5+ Overwatch and the only lose one from Moral but I'm not sure it's worth the trade off in damage output.
With a large blob it might be worth it but Light of Emperor helps a lot and 2 attacks at s4 is a really good charge deterrent.
After having run all of the other Convictions for at least 2 games. I am quite happy with Sacred Rose for my double battalion detachments. If I am attempting a Repentia bomb I do it with a Vanguard Det of Bloody Rose. My Sisters do better when they are shooting stuff.
Suzuteo wrote: Ah. So I guess a Dialogus instead then? Do Sisters seriously lack a jump pack character option?
Dialogus doesn't get an Order, so while it can carry the Brazzer, it literally does nothing in its possession.
Sisters do not have a jump pack Canoness, and the lack of a viable melee option (despite having several melee units; thanks playtesters!) is probably the biggest gap in the Sisters faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rynner wrote: With a large blob it might be worth it but Light of Emperor helps a lot and 2 attacks at s4 is a really good charge deterrent.
3 attacks at S4, don't forget your +1 from the Priest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dracpanzer wrote: My Sisters do better when they are shooting stuff.
15 BSS squad with 3 stormbolters, in rapid fire, is 36 S4 shots.
15 Bloody Roses with 3 stormbolters, in rapid fire, followed by a successful charge, is 36 S4 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, followed by 46 S4 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s. If they succeed on their The Passion (which they will do ~55% of the time with a Dialogus aura), they get an additional 46 S4 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s.
So essentially, a Bloody Rose charge is an additional round of shooting, and if they succeed on their Passion role on that turn, it's two additional rounds of shooting.
If they stay in combat, they can still shoot their pistols the next turn, although anything which is soaking ~60 S4 hits and then 18 S3 hits, and didn't eliminate the Sisters unit, is probably not something worth shooting boltguns at anyways, and you only charged it to permanently tarpit it like a Leman Russ.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/09 19:23:08
Suzuteo wrote: Well, that's the thing. You actually don't need to keep them together the entire time. Just as long as the Seraphim are in front of Celestine, the concept works.
Seraphim infront of celestine have a 5++ save.
It's 4++ if they are clumped with celestine (easy enough, though watch the limited range of the inferno pistols)
To get the 3++ you need the canoness, on foot, running after them in 6" coherency with at least one model from each unit.
No, I get that. I was thinking of just staying close together with AoF + Advance, which is +1-9" of movement. But then again, this runs up into the classic problem of AoF, which combines the restrictions of stratagems with the unreliability of the Psychic Phase. Honestly, a better way to have done it is to roll 1D6 (or even a D3!) then pay the difference in FP.
Anyhow, maybe Book of Saint Lucian on the Canoness? But then you won't get to carry the Brazier, and she's practically the only one who can. Bloody Emperor there is a lot of fine print in this mini Codex...
So until they re-introduce the Jump Canoness... how about this for a Cathedral?
15 BSS squad with 3 stormbolters, in rapid fire, is 36 S4 shots.
15 Bloody Roses with 3 stormbolters, in rapid fire, followed by a successful charge, is 36 S4 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, followed by 46 S4 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s. If they succeed on their The Passion (which they will do ~55% of the time with a Dialogus aura), they get an additional 46 S4 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s.
So essentially, a Bloody Rose charge is an additional round of shooting, and if they succeed on their Passion role on that turn, it's two additional rounds of shooting.
If they stay in combat, they can still shoot their pistols the next turn, although anything which is soaking ~60 S4 hits and then 18 S3 hits, and didn't eliminate the Sisters unit, is probably not something worth shooting boltguns at anyways, and you only charged it to permanently tarpit it like a Leman Russ.
Looks like your still talking about Celestian blobs, with your Dialogus keeping up literally everyone I play against will have zero trouble avoiding such a thing, killing it on the charge or focus firing it in to useless scraps. OoBR is a trap.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, that's the thing. You actually don't need to keep them together the entire time. Just as long as the Seraphim are in front of Celestine, the concept works.
Seraphim infront of celestine have a 5++ save.
It's 4++ if they are clumped with celestine (easy enough, though watch the limited range of the inferno pistols)
To get the 3++ you need the canoness, on foot, running after them in 6" coherency with at least one model from each unit.
No, I get that. I was thinking of just staying close together with AoF + Advance, which is +1-9" of movement. But then again, this runs up into the classic problem of AoF, which combines the restrictions of stratagems with the unreliability of the Psychic Phase. Honestly, a better way to have done it is to roll 1D6 (or even a D3!) then pay the difference in FP.
Anyhow, maybe Book of Saint Lucian on the Canoness? But then you won't get to carry the Brazier, and she's practically the only one who can. Bloody Emperor there is a lot of fine print in this mini Codex...
So until they re-introduce the Jump Canoness... how about this for a Cathedral?
Would I want Chainswords or Missionaries by any chance?
Since you don't have any real melee upgrades in your units, I'd go with Sacred Rose instead of Bloody Rose. It would let you bring the pistols back into play when your opponent charges you, letting you (hopefully) tank the hits with your armor/SoF. Then you pull out of combat and blast them in the face again.
Looks like your still talking about Celestian blobs, with your Dialogus keeping up literally everyone I play against will have zero trouble avoiding such a thing, killing it on the charge or focus firing it in to useless scraps. OoBR is a trap.
BSS is a Basic Sisters Squad.
If they stay within range of a Priest, they get 2 attacks base, and a 3rd from charging as Bloody Rose. The Superior gets an additional attack. (15x3)+1=46
Celestians max blob is 10, get 4 attacks for generics (2+priest+BR), and they have WS3. They have better damage output in melee to a full 15 girl BSS squad (average ~31 hits), but fewer hits at range, fewer bodies, and they're not Troops.
Yes, I always factor in Sisters' offensive units as being in range of the deathstar of Celestine, the Indomitable Belief Canoness, a Priest and a Dialogus, because that's when Sisters are good, and not surprisingly that's where your Sisters need to be in order to be successful.
Since you don't have any real melee upgrades in your units, I'd go with Sacred Rose instead of Bloody Rose. It would let you bring the pistols back into play when your opponent charges you, letting you (hopefully) tank the hits with your armor/SoF. Then you pull out of combat and blast them in the face again.
Chainswords are free, so why not?
Sacred Rose doubles the number of hits you make in overwatch.
Bloody Rose basically quadrouples the number of wounds you put out in melee against other infantry.
If you're going to deepstrike in, then Sacred Rose is reasonable because you're not going to succeed a 9" charge most of the time.
If you're going to walk across the ground, then Bloody Rose is significantly better because chances are you're going to fly right into their face for Celestine/Inferno/Flamers.
Damage output of a 10x Sacred Rose, BP only, not including Burning Descent, assuming you get charged after you shoot:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 20 shots hitting on 5s is 20 hits.
Damage output of a 10x Sacred Rose, BP only, including Burning Descent, assuming you get charged:
40 shots hitting on 3s followed by 20 shots hitting on 5s is 33.4 hits.
Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, not including The Passion:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 21 swings hitting on 3s is 27.47.
Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, including The Passion:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 42 swings hitting on 3s is 41.54.
Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, including an average of The Passion at 33% base success rate without a Dialogus:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 28 swings hitting on 3s is 32.16.
The ceiling on Bloody Rose is a lot higher, but again, I probably wouldn't consider Bloody Rose if I was building my list around Burning Descenting them onto objectives.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 02:04:09
Suzuteo wrote: Well, they replace Bolt Pistols and are also useful in a fight.
I think I will go with the Sacred Rose, yeah. Thanks.
Per the Index FAQ, Superiors can have a bolt pistol or plasma pistol + replace their bolter with a storm bolter or combi-weapon + a melee weapon. So, no, they don't replace our bolt pistols.
Also, Bloody Rose is far from a trap. Sadly, it's probably our best Order Conviction overall followed by Sacred Rose for blobs.The three faith based ones? Meh. Acts of Faith are bad, most people seem to be ending games with unspent faith points making Martyred Lady and Argent Shroud less useful, and Valorous Heart would be better if our convictions affected our tanks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 02:24:22
Since you don't have any real melee upgrades in your units, I'd go with Sacred Rose instead of Bloody Rose. It would let you bring the pistols back into play when your opponent charges you, letting you (hopefully) tank the hits with your armor/SoF. Then you pull out of combat and blast them in the face again.
Chainswords are free, so why not?
Sacred Rose doubles the number of hits you make in overwatch.
Bloody Rose basically quadrouples the number of wounds you put out in melee against other infantry.
If you're going to deepstrike in, then Sacred Rose is reasonable because you're not going to succeed a 9" charge most of the time.
If you're going to walk across the ground, then Bloody Rose is significantly better because chances are you're going to fly right into their face for Celestine/Inferno/Flamers.
Damage output of a 10x Sacred Rose, BP only, not including Burning Descent, assuming you get charged after you shoot:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 20 shots hitting on 5s is 20 hits.
Damage output of a 10x Sacred Rose, BP only, including Burning Descent, assuming you get charged:
40 shots hitting on 3s followed by 20 shots hitting on 5s is 33.4 hits.
Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, not including The Passion:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 21 swings hitting on 3s is 27.47.
Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, including The Passion:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 42 swings hitting on 3s is 41.54.
Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, including an average of The Passion at 33% base success rate without a Dialogus:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 28 swings hitting on 3s is 32.16.
The ceiling on Bloody Rose is a lot higher, but again, I probably wouldn't consider Bloody Rose if I was building my list around Burning Descenting them onto objectives.
Adding in things like inferno pistols changes the outcome a bit. He also is missing things like power weapons to take advantage of the extra attacks an strength, or priests for the extra buffs. The detachment he posted is better at hustling up, blowing something away with inferno pistols, and kiting out of combat. Sacred rose lets him bring his inferno pistols back into play for extra shots.
Also, consider adding plasma pistols to your superiors for the inferno squads, unless you're trying to keep them cheap.
Rynner wrote: I've been debating going from Bloody Rose to Scared Rose for the 5+ Overwatch and the only lose one from Moral but I'm not sure it's worth the trade off in damage output.
My suggestion is try taking both.
I haven't managed to get a game in yet, but my plan is:
This group goes after hard targets; it can use vessels to impact the entire battle group with an AoF, but should only do it in very rare circumstances, because the cp are better spent on Blessed Bolts, which should be used often, and Holy Trinity, which isn't as good as Blessed Bolts, but keep in mind that you can use both in the same turn if BB doesn't quite finish the job. The Hospitaler with this unit compounds the resurrection factor provided be Spirit of the Martyr (which can also be used with vessels)
This group can support the offensive line to clear the objectives, but once cleared, these guys park on it and hold on, over-watching anyone who tries to take it back to death! If the unit breaks to hold multiple objectives, you can send the Hospitaller with the BSS that is most likely to need her (given the proximity of enemies to each of the objectives. If an objective is particularly threatened, it gets BOTH the canoness AND the hospitaller. I know that in MSU, optimizing for Blessed Bolts is WAY better (that's why the first battle group is kitted to use that strategy), but with these big squads, Trinity affects all 15 weapons, rather than just the best 3.
This is a clone of the aggressor battle group from the Battalion, so the strategy is similar with one caveat: this group's purpose is to support the repentia and try to help them stay alive long enough to matter. They do this by providing an alternative target as they do with their capacity for fire support. Keep in mind that the battalion is also out there, and if they are doing their jobs on objectives, they may actually be more tactically vital targets, even though the Vanguard is more dangerous.
Mistress
Repentia x 9
Mistress
Repentia x 9
Mistress
Repentia x 9
They're here to do what Repentia do- kill everything or die trying. I might even throw in the final Hospitaller I'm allowed to take, just to bring back the Sisters who have achieved absolution in death.
Ministorum Spearhead:
Uriah or the Blackstone Guy
5x Arcoflagellants
Penitent Engine
Priest
5x Arcofagellants
Penitent Engine
Priest
5x Arcoflagellants
Penitent Engine
This is three groups of pain- one to accompany each the Repentia. Although they are organized as two detachments (because of both fluff AND extra CP), the Vanguard and the Spearhead function as a single organization- the Penitent Legion. The idea is that the entire organization splits into three battle groups, each consisting of a mistress, a priest, a penitent engine, arcoflagellants and repentia. One of said priests is a named character and one of these battle groups will be accompanied by a canoness and her retinue. If that's not enough target saturation to hit the mark, combine two battle groups against a target. The lone mob in this scenario can team up with the aggressor battle group of the Sacred Rose detachment, but keep in mind that aura effects of sisters don't cross between orders. Hospitallers and Dialogi, being orderless are immune to this restriction.
Now I haven't costed it yet, but that feels like about 1400-1600, possibly even 1800. You'll notice no FA. That's because if there is room, I'd like a fourth detachment, an outrider of Seraphim and Doms. I don't mind building over 2000 if I can make it so that combining any three of the four detachments will give me 2000; that we I can pick the best three for the scenario/ enemy. I'm not sure which order this detachment would be- it could be either of the two that I've already used, but I might even use one of the others.
Now some of you will say that a) there's supposed to be a limit on detachments and b) sacrificing my ability to have hth Order tactic on hand to hand while taking the overwatch Order tactic on my nuns with guns would allow me to take a brigade to get more cp for Trinity, Blessed Bolt and Burning Descent (once the fourth detachment is built).
Both of these points are valid. However, I feel like my organizational structure is WAY more interesting than a boring old brigade, which is not really a detachment at all, but an entire army unto itself. My organizational structure has a real story and adds flavour to the army; this stupid detachment restriction was added because people in the competitive circuit were using the capacity to field many, many MSU detachments to gain a CP advantage. Once GW increased CP for the most boring detachment in the game (ie. Brigade) to an insane level, they eliminated the exploit, but they never removed the detachment restriction. I almost never play competitively- I've attend two tournaments in 31 years of playing 40k, so usually I'm not bound by artificial tournament rules.
That list is 1926 points, and surprisingly it's actually tournament legal, but it has a lot of problems.
It has 10 command points and 11 Faith Points.
You don't have Celestine.
Your Repentia are not being deployed inside a transport, so they're never going to make it anywhere near combat, and they're free kills to anyone who so much as looks at them.
More of them will die in overwatch than will kill things in combat.
Similar for the Arcoflagellants, although they're significantly more resilient to overwatch.
Wait. I am super confused. Can Seraphim Superiors take a combi-weapon? Can anyone link me to the FAQ please? I cannot find it in the Index Imperium 2 FAQ.
I can not see the advantage to running Repentia outside of a transport. The whole point is to disemark and charge the transport to soak the Overwatch, and that only works if you've got enough other high priority targets that the Repentia transport isn't a quick kill.
Outside of a transport they actually give Imperial Guardsmen something they can reliably kill with Lasguns, and at 15pts per model that's a bad deal.
Also now Mistress' are characters with order bubbles, you don't need more than 1, the Repentia can shield her from shooting by the character rule, and in return she can affect as many repentia squads as you can get within 6inches.
[Can we play Narrative now? I want to put my Repentia in Valkayrie's...]
