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A.T. wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?
A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

Still worth picking up and playing, and sending the resultant feedback to GW.

Aha! I've spotted one of GW's accounts!

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?

A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

It's actually the best codex release we have ever seen.

Purely because it's the only codex, ever, that the players can actually get changed before its released.

I'm confident that 99% of the people complaining in this thread will never actually give GW the comprehensive feedback they are literally begging the playerbase for, though.

That's fair, Blaxican. I'll go dust off the girls and give it a go.

 pretre wrote:

Rynner wrote:

Thats the one advantage of a mistress of repentance, it fills out spots in a brigade and has the order keyword.

I don't understand this as a reply to my post. You mean so I can take both the Brazier and Blade or something? I don't want to do that as my Mistress will be with the Repentia in a rhino.

I think Rynner was saying that there's a reason to take a Mistress in a competitive setting.

 pretre wrote:

Rynner wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So, interesting thing I found out today. Under ITC, you can choose your relics and warlord trait at the table.

For me, that means my Canoness with Power Sword can be Brazier or Blade depending on opponent. Neat!

Thats the one advantage of a mistress of repentance, it fills out spots in a brigade and has the order keyword.

I don't understand this as a reply to my post. You mean so I can take both the Brazier and Blade or something? I don't want to do that as my Mistress will be with the Repentia in a rhino.

Generally just trying to point something out, be helpful, and keep the thread going.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?

A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

It's actually the best codex release we have ever seen.

Purely because it's the only codex, ever, that the players can actually get changed before its released.

I'm confident that 99% of the people complaining in this thread will never actually give GW the comprehensive feedback they are literally begging the playerbase for, though.

Well I read it through, played games and then sent feedback on what I thought worked, did not work and suggestions.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's actually the best codex release we have ever seen.

Purely because it's the only codex, ever, that the players can actually get changed before its released.

I'm confident that 99% of the people complaining in this thread will never actually give GW the comprehensive feedback they are literally begging the playerbase for, though.

If ITC didn't adopt the Beta Codex rules, I would say you have a point, but they have, so unless you're playing kitchen table 40k, you're using the Beta Codex as if it were a complete Codex.

I have sent GW two comprehensive feedback emails thus far:

The first was a week after obtaining the codex with my initial thoughts on every single unit, why a lot of the ideas they had don't work, why Acts of Faith are a forgettable subpar mechanic, and why the codex as a whole will be unfun to play with or against.

The second a month later, with more targeted feedback about what concepts work or not after testing, what tweaks need to be made to specific units to bring them up to par, how to make the melee units playable, what units need to be introduced to gap-fill so that you're not required to splash, why Acts of Faith are now a forgettable subpar mechanic, and why the codex as a whole is unfun to play with or against.

I will undoubtedly do another one after LVO, which will likely be very similar to the second one, but with the additional callouts to having to carry around seven books and the same weight in FAQs, and questioning why Sisters didn't get access to Bolter Discipline.

Rynner wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Rynner wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So, interesting thing I found out today. Under ITC, you can choose your relics and warlord trait at the table.

For me, that means my Canoness with Power Sword can be Brazier or Blade depending on opponent. Neat!

Thats the one advantage of a mistress of repentance, it fills out spots in a brigade and has the order keyword.

I don't understand this as a reply to my post. You mean so I can take both the Brazier and Blade or something? I don't want to do that as my Mistress will be with the Repentia in a rhino.

Generally just trying to point something out, be helpful, and keep the thread going.

No, I understand that a repentance is a good choice. I just didn't understand it in reference to my post. It seemed like, and apparently was, a non-sequitor.

As a separate post, yeah, MoR is a good choice for Brazier and all around just for relic carrying for cheap.

Wow. I’ll get more detailed info later but played three games today at an event and sisters were really solid. Played the list I posted a couple pages back and went 2-1 for 6th out of 18.

I feel like I have the same base army but a lot more tools.
More to come.

So you basically ignored geedubs insane horde push and played them usual msu but with the new tools?

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So you basically ignored geedubs insane horde push and played them usual msu but with the new tools?

I don't think that there is this horde push that everyone is claiming. I've been playing MSU for like 15 years, so didn't change much, and it works great.

List:


I loved the bubble cathedral. Divine Guidance, Vessels and Canoness on the Exorcists was ridiculous. Most turns, 2 targets disappeared a turn between the three of them. I feel like I want to add three squads of Retributors to this and just have a huge bubble of long range fire on turns 1-2.

In two of my games, I just walked the cathedral up the field and it was fun to have a solid shooting base midfield. With more practice, I'll avoid the spots where I left someone out of one of more of the auras (and got them killed).

Dominions were great distractions from the rest of my army and generally killed something and died.

Celestine plays a lot more reactively and I enjoyed it. She didn't die in any of my games.

Repentia do work if you get them there. They got shot to death in one game (I left them out of one of the two auras) but in the other two, they just killed anything they touched.

I never ran out of Faith, made most of my faith checks (most of the failed ones were when I tried it on Celestine) and ran out of CP (or ran really low) on all three games. Vessels is expensive.

Denying the witch with brazier came up in one game and I failed like 14 of my 15 tries. lol That's just dice though. I had good coverage from turn 2 and got a lot of attempts. Used the strat for 3 powers as well.

For reference, I played three armies:
WIN - Iron hands with tons of Intercessors, 2 drills, 2xDevs, Kheres Contemptor, Sternguard, lots of caps and lts
WIN - Deathwatch with 6 Basilisks and a CP Farm.
14-17 LOSS - Ynnari with Shining Spears, Dark Reapers and more psykers than you could shake a stick at.

Good to hear. I know ive not chamged from the usual msu tactics at all. In fact, only change to my lists has been to move my exorcists into a spearhead detachment of their own for the extra CP and a Cannoness conductor to buff their SoF with Celestine doing guard duty for them for a sturdy SoF save for the Exorcists where i believe its best used.

Yeah the Vessels is freaking expensive. Its tempting to use it on the exorcists especially considering their damage potential (like you said, pretty much deleting what you point them at.) Ive always felt really CP starved after using it just once.

Sound like good games.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Good to hear. I know ive not chamged from the usual msu tactics at all. In fact, only change to my lists has been to move my exorcists into a spearhead detachment of their own for the extra CP and a Cannoness conductor to buff their SoF with Celestine doing guard duty for them for a sturdy SoF save for the Exorcists where i believe its best used.

Yeah the Vessels is freaking expensive. Its tempting to use it on the exorcists especially considering their damage potential (like you said, pretty much deleting what you point them at.) Ive always felt really CP starved after using it just once.

Sound like good games.

Yeah, I had 14 CP after relics, so could get two good vessels turns. I'm tempted to drop the Dominions down a bit to get those retributors. Oh well, we'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and something I never thought I'd do. I deep struck my Seraphim. The burning descent was actually pretty good.

 pretre wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So you basically ignored geedubs insane horde push and played them usual msu but with the new tools?

I don't think that there is this horde push that everyone is claiming. I've been playing MSU for like 15 years, so didn't change much, and it works great.

List:

Spoiler:

2k - 15 CP (14 after relics) - 9 Faith

Ebon Chalice Brigade

HQ - Sister Ephrael - Canoness with PS/BP (Brazier)- 49
HQ - Sister Vangela - Canoness - BP/CCW/Book of St Luc (Warlord with Indom Belief) - 45
HQ - Celestine - 160

OB SEC TROOP - His Agony - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - His Woe - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107

OB SEC TROOP - His Pain- 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with SB/CS/Bolter- 51
OB SEC TROOP - His Grief - 5 BSS with SB, HB and Sup with BP/CS/Bolter - 57

OB SEC TROOP - His Loss - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - His Suffering - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF = 107


ELITE - Dialogous Yara - Dialogous - 30
ELITE - Confessor Kyrinov - Preacher - 25
FREELITE - Mistress Rovys - Mistress of Repentance - 35
ELITE - The Red Redemption - Repentia x7 - 105
DED TRANS - Rhino with SB - 75

HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125


FAST - His Deliverance - 8 Seraphim, CS/PP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 113

FAST - His Retribution - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107

FAST - His Retaliation - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107

I loved the bubble cathedral. Divine Guidance, Vessels and Canoness on the Exorcists was ridiculous. Most turns, 2 targets disappeared a turn between the three of them. I feel like I want to add three squads of Retributors to this and just have a huge bubble of long range fire on turns 1-2.

In two of my games, I just walked the cathedral up the field and it was fun to have a solid shooting base midfield. With more practice, I'll avoid the spots where I left someone out of one of more of the auras (and got them killed).

Dominions were great distractions from the rest of my army and generally killed something and died.

Celestine plays a lot more reactively and I enjoyed it. She didn't die in any of my games.

Repentia do work if you get them there. They got shot to death in one game (I left them out of one of the two auras) but in the other two, they just killed anything they touched.

I never ran out of Faith, made most of my faith checks (most of the failed ones were when I tried it on Celestine) and ran out of CP (or ran really low) on all three games. Vessels is expensive.

Denying the witch with brazier came up in one game and I failed like 14 of my 15 tries. lol That's just dice though. I had good coverage from turn 2 and got a lot of attempts. Used the strat for 3 powers as well.

For reference, I played three armies:
WIN - Iron hands with tons of Intercessors, 2 drills, 2xDevs, Kheres Contemptor, Sternguard, lots of caps and lts
WIN - Deathwatch with 6 Basilisks and a CP Farm.
14-17 LOSS - Ynnari with Shining Spears, Dark Reapers and more psykers than you could shake a stick at.

Vessels on Exorcists is a dangerous game. You're spending at least 3CP just praying for good rolls. The value you could get out of applying that CP to allies is likely to be the same or greater on average without having to deal with 1,2,2 rerolled to 1 shooting turns. Anecdotally, in the games I've used Triple Exo+Vessels DG I have averaged the exact same amount of damage in both Vessels and non-vessels turns.(sidebar: I would bet money that if you went back to those game and really analyzed exactly what came from Vessels and what you would have gotten anyway, you'd be surprised at how little difference it actually made. Most of the feeling of 'having more tools' is certainly placebo.). Also adding retributors is chasing bad money after bad money, I've done this one too and, 3Rets is INCREDIBLY underwhelming. You get more value out of just about anything else. Retributors got hit probably the second hardest behind Seraphim by the weaker AoFs. Even with Vessels Divine Guidance+Canoness it takes almost two squads of Retributors to match what one squad could do with the Old Divine Guidance and old retributors were not particularly great anyway. Dropping Dominions for Retributors is along the same lines as dropping a knight Castellan for triple Defiler.

Also, 'reactively' is a fun way of saying 'doesn't do anything for 4 turns and then kills like 3 marines' lol.

The setup is fine for locals games but Vessels is still pretty trash compared to what other armies can do with 3-6 CP per turn. Even with Exorcists, I wouldn't bother using Vessels unless I was going for a major Alphastrike against something like an Exocrine or a Baneblade(high damage output, no invul), was -1 to hit for whatever reason, or had a lot of stuff in rapid fire range. Even in ideal situations though, the bonus is pretty small.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?

A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

It's actually the best codex release we have ever seen.

Purely because it's the only codex, ever, that the players can actually get changed before its released.

I'm confident that 99% of the people complaining in this thread will never actually give GW the comprehensive feedback they are literally begging the playerbase for, though.

I already sent about 4000 words detailing my issues with the Acts of Faith system, the 4++ blob, as well as the problem units(new Celestine is overpriced by about 20pts, Geminae Superia are hilariously terrible, Exorcists are both extremely good and extremely terrible at the same time Celestians still don't have a real reason to exist). I even remembered to mention the stuff I really like, like Brazier and Burning Descent. So there has to be at least 99 other people in this thread,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's actually the best codex release we have ever seen.

Purely because it's the only codex, ever, that the players can actually get changed before its released.

I'm confident that 99% of the people complaining in this thread will never actually give GW the comprehensive feedback they are literally begging the playerbase for, though.

If ITC didn't adopt the Beta Codex rules, I would say you have a point, but they have, so unless you're playing kitchen table 40k, you're using the Beta Codex as if it were a complete Codex.

I have sent GW two comprehensive feedback emails thus far:

The first was a week after obtaining the codex with my initial thoughts on every single unit, why a lot of the ideas they had don't work, why Acts of Faith are a forgettable subpar mechanic, and why the codex as a whole will be unfun to play with or against.

The second a month later, with more targeted feedback about what concepts work or not after testing, what tweaks need to be made to specific units to bring them up to par, how to make the melee units playable, what units need to be introduced to gap-fill so that you're not required to splash, why Acts of Faith are now a forgettable subpar mechanic, and why the codex as a whole is unfun to play with or against.

I will undoubtedly do another one after LVO, which will likely be very similar to the second one, but with the additional callouts to having to carry around seven books and the same weight in FAQs, and questioning why Sisters didn't get access to Bolter Discipline.

Technically Adepticon hasn't made a ruling on it yet, so if you live in the Midwest you're free to do what you want (For now). We generally care way less about ITC BECAUSE Adepticon's rules tend to be so different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:
Also, I played a game against Orks Sunday and used Sacred Rose. There is no going back. The 5+ overwatch is amazing. I had a squad of Doms get assaulted by 8 tank bustas and I killed 7 in overwatch. Then punched the last one to death.

It was glorious.

Another note: Anyone in here order the $60 limited edition Celestine book? I hate money, so I was considering it.

I did. Celestine is my favorite thing about 40k. Even not reading fluff books generally, I'm still honor bound to buy any Celestine stuff where she isn't a second fiddle.

What are people thinking for side-allies? So far Ive tried stuffing a bunch of crusaders into a valk with a priest, and a knight, both were okay-ish

Also, I spotted a guy making repressors on ebay which look pretty neat if you can't find any 2nd hand forgeworld ones

 Grundz wrote:
What are people thinking for side-allies? So far Ive tried stuffing a bunch of crusaders into a valk with a priest, and a knight, both were okay-ish

Also, I spotted a guy making repressors on ebay which look pretty neat if you can't find any 2nd hand forgeworld ones

I still like Blood Angels and after LVO I might try throwing in some Death Watch if I get around to converting and painting them up.

ERJAK wrote:
Vessels on Exorcists is a dangerous game. You're spending at least 3CP just praying for good rolls. The value you could get out of applying that CP to allies is likely to be the same or greater on average without having to deal with 1,2,2 rerolled to 1 shooting turns. Anecdotally, in the games I've used Triple Exo+Vessels DG I have averaged the exact same amount of damage in both Vessels and non-vessels turns.(sidebar: I would bet money that if you went back to those game and really analyzed exactly what came from Vessels and what you would have gotten anyway, you'd be surprised at how little difference it actually made. Most of the feeling of 'having more tools' is certainly placebo.). Also adding retributors is chasing bad money after bad money, I've done this one too and, 3Rets is INCREDIBLY underwhelming. You get more value out of just about anything else. Retributors got hit probably the second hardest behind Seraphim by the weaker AoFs. Even with Vessels Divine Guidance+Canoness it takes almost two squads of Retributors to match what one squad could do with the Old Divine Guidance and old retributors were not particularly great anyway. Dropping Dominions for Retributors is along the same lines as dropping a knight Castellan for triple Defiler.

Also, 'reactively' is a fun way of saying 'doesn't do anything for 4 turns and then kills like 3 marines' lol.

The setup is fine for locals games but Vessels is still pretty trash compared to what other armies can do with 3-6 CP per turn. Even with Exorcists, I wouldn't bother using Vessels unless I was going for a major Alphastrike against something like an Exocrine or a Baneblade(high damage output, no invul), was -1 to hit for whatever reason, or had a lot of stuff in rapid fire range. Even in ideal situations though, the bonus is pretty small.

I like how your post says that I was obviously delusional for thinking my army was effective and that I had a good time. lol

edit: To your points though, I usually had two to three turns of vessels which hit the exos and several squads that were around (at least once a blessed bolts squad, several repressors, seraphim at least once, etc). It's not just 3 exorcists, except maybe on turn one in some matchups.
CP to allies is not interesting to me as I'm not playing or testing the Beta codex with allies, I'm testing the beta codex.
I'm sure I would be interested in that analysis but I'll tell you that it felt good and fun and I rolled a lot of 2's to hit. I can also tell you that the psychological value of the Cathedral and the Vessel's bubble was strong. It frightened opponents and forced their hand as soon as they saw it.
There are totally more tools than we have ever had. You guys are obsessed with thinking because we lost the free shooting, free assault type that the world is over. It isn't. That was an aberration that we had for a short time. I've played sisters for almost 20 years and this was the time when I felt I had the most tools. Faith, good stratagems, tons of options when I hit the field. With practice, I would be a lot more efficient and a put a lot more hurt down.
I can buy the Retrib thing, but here's the thing. I'm going to be vessel'ing that firebase anyways. I just want more things to be there when I do it.

Rynner wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
What are people thinking for side-allies? So far Ive tried stuffing a bunch of crusaders into a valk with a priest, and a knight, both were okay-ish

Also, I spotted a guy making repressors on ebay which look pretty neat if you can't find any 2nd hand forgeworld ones

I still like Blood Angels and after LVO I might try throwing in some Death Watch if I get around to converting and painting them up.

I'm guessing blood angels are close combat backup and then you take the 6+ feel no pain order?

I disagree about the Rets. While they certainly aren't as good as they used to be, they still fill a niche that none of the other units do. The 12 HB shots a turn are pretty reliable for punching in the hard to reach places. The extra STR of the gun goes a long way too.

 Grundz wrote:

Rynner wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
What are people thinking for side-allies? So far Ive tried stuffing a bunch of crusaders into a valk with a priest, and a knight, both were okay-ish

Also, I spotted a guy making repressors on ebay which look pretty neat if you can't find any 2nd hand forgeworld ones

I still like Blood Angels and after LVO I might try throwing in some Death Watch if I get around to converting and painting them up.

I'm guessing blood angels are close combat backup and then you take the 6+ feel no pain order?

Yeah the BA kill things and deal with certain problems more reliably than the rest of my list can.

No I've been taking/am taking Bloody Rose to LVO. I like the 5+ overwatch and almost changed it at the last minute but the extra attacks and strength came in handy in a last minute play test game I did right before the list dead line.

 deviantduck wrote:
I disagree about the Rets. While they certainly aren't as good as they used to be, they still fill a niche that none of the other units do. The 12 HB shots a turn are pretty reliable for punching in the hard to reach places. The extra STR of the gun goes a long way too.

If you aren't splashing in your shooting phase, you can pretty easily give them +1 to hit and wound, witch is enough to chew up a lot of things

I poked at blood angels, man it sure isn't easy to fit a BA battalion in and still have room for any repressors !

Do you actually mean Brigade or Battalion? I've been running a sisters Brigade and a BA battalion.

Where are you getting +1 to wound from? Holy Trinity?

whoops, battalion


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rynner wrote:
Do you actually mean Brigade or Battalion? I've been running a sisters Brigade and a BA battalion.

Where are you getting +1 to wound from? Holy Trinity?

if you drop an act of faith on anyone, you can spend a cp on rerolling 1's to wound

 Grundz wrote:

if you drop an act of faith on anyone, you can spend a cp on rerolling 1's to wound

Yeah, that was a good one, I used it a few times, as well as Holy Trinity.
I don't know that HT was enough for me to want to build towards though so I think I'll go back to just 4 meltas on 5 girls for my Dominions.

 pretre wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

if you drop an act of faith on anyone, you can spend a cp on rerolling 1's to wound

Yeah, that was a good one, I used it a few times, as well as Holy Trinity.
I don't know that HT was enough for me to want to build towards though so I think I'll go back to just 4 meltas on 5 girls for my Dominions.

I'm using trinity on a single larger sisters squad that brings up the rear to hold points as the army surges forward.
Not because its better, but because in a pinch I will probably want to use holy bolters on something better, and if i'm splashing +1 to hit anyway the value of that squad goes way up, +1 to hit, rerolling 1's from cannoness, then +1 to wound, rerolling 1's is pretty good for throwing dice at something you want dead.

 Grundz wrote:
I'm using trinity on a single larger sisters squad that brings up the rear to hold points as the army surges forward.
Not because its better, but because in a pinch I will probably want to use holy bolters on something better, and if i'm splashing +1 to hit anyway the value of that squad goes way up, +1 to hit, rerolling 1's from cannoness, then +1 to wound, rerolling 1's is pretty good for throwing dice at something you want dead.

Yeah, I really enjoyed the interaction between the Aura, Diffferent Strats and AoF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Was there a deadline for feedback? I want to start writing something up but don't want to rush unless I have to.

 pretre wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Was there a deadline for feedback? I want to start writing something up but don't want to rush unless I have to.

my assumption is that after genestealer cult they'll start teasing our stuff, so you may have a little more time but not a ton.

my hopes for the codex are simple, I just want more/more interesting AOF's/stratagems, and some reason to take lots of flamers and such. One that I suggested is a shooting phase AOF that pumps flamer range up to 12 like descent, and lets you reroll (or adds to) the random flamer dice.
the whole "purge it all with fire" thing is a little lost with how good storm bolters are :(

I'd like to see a feasable "lots of angels" build too but we'll see how that goes

Seraphim Squads with a set of infernos and flamers are a good target for Holy Trinity, since they want to be in flamer range anyways.

 Grundz wrote:
What are people thinking for side-allies? So far Ive tried stuffing a bunch of crusaders into a valk with a priest, and a knight, both were okay-ish

Also, I spotted a guy making repressors on ebay which look pretty neat if you can't find any 2nd hand forgeworld ones

I'm running pure Sisters for a while to really lean on these new rules and compose my note to GeeDubs. At some point I'll probably bring back my plasma Scions since they never fail to deliver results. My only other army currently is a box o' half-built White Scars waiting for some proper rules.

I'm pretty happy with my mock Repressors I made out of Shapeways bits.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PuppetSoul wrote:
Seraphim Squads with a set of infernos and flamers are a good target for Holy Trinity, since they want to be in flamer range anyways.

I got effective use (I think) and a lot of entertainment (I know) out of heavy flamer Rets with a combi-melta on the Superior. Starting with S5 meant I was usually wounding on 2+. There may be an argument for preserving Burning Descent by keeping Seraphim pure HF, but I haven't seen that strat hit super hard yet. At any rate, the range issues would make me hesitate.

 Grundz wrote:
I'm using trinity on a single larger sisters squad that brings up the rear to hold points as the army surges forward.
Not because its better, but because in a pinch I will probably want to use holy bolters on something better, and if i'm splashing +1 to hit anyway the value of that squad goes way up, +1 to hit, rerolling 1's from cannoness, then +1 to wound, rerolling 1's is pretty good for throwing dice at something you want dead.

I feel like this has merit just on volume of dice. I've messed with Holy Trinity on a unit of melta Doms with a combi flamer and it never felt like enough dice were affected, although it does provide a nice boost against T8 targets.