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Faith mechanically works alright but the abilities fall on their face- Hand and Guidance in particular (suggested Hand be 6" move and Guidance to resolve 6s to wound at improved AP value by 1 so all sister weapons benefit; this be in addition to +1bs or straight up replace it).
Faith generating Orders are never worth it as long as faith abilities are as weak as they are, same goes for regenerating WL trait and relic.
Vessels needs to go. All my uses of it never felt worth it and its killing the possibility for faith (Hand and Guidance) to be boosted to much needed better levels.
Celestians still feel lost. Suggested giving them a native +1 to devotion tests that stacks with simulcrum and ebon chalice.
Flamer and melta weapons needed more love.
Offered to buy a drink for whoever put through the change for Exorcists to go to Dd6.
That's a lot of girls. No target for the Blade or Brazier? How'd the callidus work out for you and why'd you ditch the smash?
I'm really thinking of going for more seraphim and I had been thinking of going to all flamers and Plas, how'd it work for you?
It is, the second cannoness takes the bra of denial... but i'm not sure the blade is worth forcing another cannoness into the army (but i am not convinced she isn't). I dropped the smash captain since he really isn't doing anything except speding 7-8 cp a game... in all the games i'm playing he dies super fast and often doesn't do his job. mathwise the vindicares will do the same job over the course of 2 turns that he does with some more options. The callidus is amazing tho... I love the cp drain turn 1 shuting down the cp spam from many lists turn 1. they get drained so fast they are far less effective.
As far as seraphim, I agree 20-30 seems like a must, but i don't own enough to do more than 10-15. the plasma is nice to get a little extra punch vs units in cover ( basically helps ensure more killed on drop).
Faith mechanically works alright but the abilities fall on their face- Hand and Guidance in particular (suggested Hand be 6" move and Guidance to resolve 6s to wound at improved AP value by 1 so all sister weapons benefit; this be in addition to +1bs or straight up replace it).
Faith generating Orders are never worth it as long as faith abilities are as weak as they are, same goes for regenerating WL trait and relic.
Vessels needs to go. All my uses of it never felt worth it and its killing the possibility for faith (Hand and Guidance) to be boosted to much needed better levels.
Celestians still feel lost. Suggested giving them a native +1 to devotion tests that stacks with simulcrum and ebon chalice.
Flamer and melta weapons needed more love.
Offered to buy a drink for whoever put through the change for Exorcists to go to Dd6.
I agree with all of this. The celestians don't seem to have much of a place... and really i find myself using only like 4 strats (4+ deny, blessed bolts, reroll 1s to wound, burning decent or what ever its called).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 12:52:40
Acts of Faith are weak, require tracking alonside CPs, needs to be one successful per turn not one attempt.
As they are weak all the related artefacts, Convictions etc are not worth it.
Convictions Need to work on vehicles as well as Infantry.
Exorocists are durable but unrelaible - either awesome or rubbish, seldom in between - not good for balance
Give the Geminae their 2+ armour back! Allow them to stand in for jump pack Canonness
Allow St C and Geminae to Deep strike.
Some stuff that wont fly without new models - eg Power weapon choice beyond swords...
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Pretre & frgsinwntr, both of you are talking Seraphim spam... is it more about board coverage or lots of shots or Burning Descent? Are you staggering arrivals to use the strat more than once? Any IPs in the mix for Holy Trinity? How does Big C fit? I'm imagining that on the turn she leaves the Cathedral she stakes out a spot in charge range in the Movement phase and then a squad of Seraphim drop in just before Shooting to screen her, use her aura, and drop Burning Descent on something... repeat each turn as she bounds across the board. I could probably run 2 full strength squads or three understrength... anybody else trying this?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/31 13:11:28
"Celestians feel lost" seems to be a common sentiment, I hope it's something GW gets very strongly through the feedback and motivates them to give celestians something a little extra.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
MacPhail wrote: Pretre & frgsinwntr, both of you are talking Seraphim spam... is it more about board coverage or lots of shots or Burning Descent? Are you staggering arrivals to use the strat more than once? Any IPs in the mix for Holy Trinity? How does Big C fit? I'm imagining that on the turn she leaves the Cathedral she stakes out a spot in charge range in the Movement phase and then a squad of Seraphim drop in just before Shooting to screen her, use her aura, and drop Burning Descent on something... repeat each turn as she bounds across the board. I could probably run 2 full strength squads or three understrength... anybody else trying this?
I actually haven't taken it yet. I was just looking at it.
If I did lots, it would be with a lot of mech as well. Most would prob be flamer, maybe a squad or two with IP. Celestine is going to buff and more forward with them once the cathedral breaks up. It's something I'm looking at but haven't done yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: "Celestians feel lost" seems to be a common sentiment, I hope it's something GW gets very strongly through the feedback and motivates them to give celestians something a little extra.
To be fair, this has really always been their role. Celestians have never had a solid role unless you count 'gets more immolators for immolator spam for cheap' in the 3.5 WH codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 15:28:33
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Not so sure. In 3.5 you could have them hit fairly decently in melee due to their WS4 and rule that they always hit on a 3+ (or was it 4+?) no matter what the enemy's WS was (since back then WS values worked differently), and they had I4 back then meaning they hit at the same time as marines and before I3 units like guardsmen. With The Passion they had I6, beating out eldar. So they had a niche use, but a use. They lost I4 and the special to-hit rule in fifth edition and have been an unusable footnote since. If they regained I4 and had some special rule like Sarissas to reroll to-hit rolls, or had the option for bp+chainsword and either special pistols or power weapons instead of special weapons-- they could regain that old role. Wouldn't be a top tier unit, but would be usable as an alternative to repentia as an elite melee unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/31 16:03:27
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
That's a lot of girls. No target for the Blade or Brazier? How'd the callidus work out for you and why'd you ditch the smash?
I'm really thinking of going for more seraphim and I had been thinking of going to all flamers and Plas, how'd it work for you?
It is, the second cannoness takes the bra of denial... but i'm not sure the blade is worth forcing another cannoness into the army (but i am not convinced she isn't). I dropped the smash captain since he really isn't doing anything except speding 7-8 cp a game... in all the games i'm playing he dies super fast and often doesn't do his job. mathwise the vindicares will do the same job over the course of 2 turns that he does with some more options. The callidus is amazing tho... I love the cp drain turn 1 shuting down the cp spam from many lists turn 1. they get drained so fast they are far less effective.
As far as seraphim, I agree 20-30 seems like a must, but i don't own enough to do more than 10-15. the plasma is nice to get a little extra punch vs units in cover ( basically helps ensure more killed on drop).
Faith mechanically works alright but the abilities fall on their face- Hand and Guidance in particular (suggested Hand be 6" move and Guidance to resolve 6s to wound at improved AP value by 1 so all sister weapons benefit; this be in addition to +1bs or straight up replace it).
Faith generating Orders are never worth it as long as faith abilities are as weak as they are, same goes for regenerating WL trait and relic.
Vessels needs to go. All my uses of it never felt worth it and its killing the possibility for faith (Hand and Guidance) to be boosted to much needed better levels.
Celestians still feel lost. Suggested giving them a native +1 to devotion tests that stacks with simulcrum and ebon chalice.
Flamer and melta weapons needed more love.
Offered to buy a drink for whoever put through the change for Exorcists to go to Dd6.
I agree with all of this. The celestians don't seem to have much of a place... and really i find myself using only like 4 strats (4+ deny, blessed bolts, reroll 1s to wound, burning decent or what ever its called).
I'm taking a similar list as your second list to LVO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 16:51:00
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Offered to buy a drink for whoever put through the change for Exorcists to go to Dd6.
Screw that guy, send a bottle of goose to the man that makes it 2D3 shots and 2D3 Damage.
Meh, I'll be fine with the current profile if we can shoot twice when we stand still.
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TBH I think the best way to "fix" celestials is to give their I4 back and let them take bp+ccw, and if they do, the two special weapons girls can get special pistols or power weapons along with the superior. That or let them take jump packs, but that's potentially really pricey.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Waaaghpower wrote: I didn't end up facing any Knights, but here's (in short) how the three games went: (It was a 1750pt campaign, FWIW.)
Snip
I still want to see how this matchup performs against a Knight list, or other top-tier tournament fare, but I was overall very pleased with its performance.
Thanks for the update. It seems mostly to be a testament to your jetbikes. As it is, the SOB part of this report seems an after thought.
Well, yeah. The jetbikes, jetbike captain, and squad of custodes were 2/3rds of my army. Even with that, though, the SoB proved invaluable for board control, the Meltaguns killed at least one very powerful target every game (A Stormraven, finishing off the Stormsurge, and a Tyrannofex,) and the 10 Command Points they brought to the table were critical for letting the Cutsodians deep strike and use +1 to Wound in combat, the bikes got to counter charge and overwatch on a 5+, giving VotBG to my captain, and rerolls.
The Sisters of Battle themselves were maybe 1/3rd of my army, but as a force multiplier did about half the work to win the games.
Melissia wrote: TBH I think the best way to "fix" celestials is to give their I4 back and let them take bp+ccw, and if they do, the two special weapons girls can get special pistols or power weapons along with the superior. That or let them take jump packs, but that's potentially really pricey.
Celestians fill a specific role, but poorly because the bodyguard rule is poorly designed, and they can't take hits for the majority of your deathstar because the Order bodyguard rule manages to be even worse.
Jump packs at 3ppm would just make them a less cost-efficient version of Seraphim.
Giving them bp+chainsword would just make them yet-another cost-inefficient melee option that lacks a way to get into combat on turn 1.
Giving them boltgun+chainsword just ramps up their better-BSS role they already have, with Bodyguard still being a liability.
If Bodyguard used the same wound-intercept as Savior Protocols or Grot Shields, and Sisters' special characters all received the Order keyword, they'd do what they're intended to do.
If every model was able to take a stormbolter and/or chainsword, I'd spam them whenever possible, and if they got both, they'd almost be competitive with Deathwatch Vets (no access to a natural 2+ or 3++, no SIA, movement/deployment limitations).
If Acts of Faith were automatic success and not a dice roll, they'd be on par with overall effectiveness though because of their superior fight phase and psychic defense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 21:14:34
Giving them bp+chainsword with the option of power weapon upgrades for their two special weapons girls would let them be a bit more cost-effective as an option to use them in a way that isn't just "bodyguard". In 3.5 they were described as the best fighters of the Order, so why not make them exactly that? They don't need to be super competitive. Just have a role that they can fulfill that matters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 21:25:18
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I would like to see celestians either get the option to attach the Sarissa on their bolter, or get Blessed ammunition or something to give them a purpose again.
"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost"
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That's fair. Enough about what feedback I'm giving. For now, aside from beta testing, I'm gonna probably let my sisters minis continue to gather dust.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: "Celestians feel lost" seems to be a common sentiment, I hope it's something GW gets very strongly through the feedback and motivates them to give celestians something a little extra.
my suggestion for them was to pick from
1: make them sisters version of wolfguard, open up their weapon options greatly, minus melta probably
2: make them able to actually bodyguard celestine
3: make the other support characters more attractive in turn makes celestians more attractive
4: let them intercept shots instead of let single multiwound shots obliterate the unit
another thing I suggested was an act of faith that improved flamer hit rolls, range, or both, something to crank up flamers, there really isn't any reason to take them and thats really bad for the "burn the heretic" themed sisters.
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4: let them intercept shots instead of let single multiwound shots obliterate the unit
This is why I can't take them seriously.
Lets say you have a Canoness and 60 Celestians in groups of 5 around her. Your Canoness wants to go toe-to-toe with Mortarion, and she's backed by 60 wounds so she feels pretty confident. Without the pulse, Mortarion doesn't have enough damage to wipe out all of them in a single combat phase UNLESS he points all hits at the Canoness, because the 6s to hit generating additional 6-damage strikes not only eliminates a complete squad with each extra hit, but spills over onto other squads as well. And it's not a May, so you have no way to stop it from happening besides repeatedly rolling 1s (or successfully saving the first hit).
another thing I suggested was an act of faith that improved flamer hit rolls, range, or both, something to crank up flamers, there really isn't any reason to take them and thats really bad for the "burn the heretic" themed sisters.
This is more a problem with the design of flamers, and not so much a problem with Sisters' version of them.
Units coming in from deepstrike not being in range of flamers, and rules being built around making charges from those drops successful a majority of the time, kind of eliminates the purpose of flamers.
Sisters getting an act of faith to increase the range of flamers on a specific squad is simply applying a bandaid to a missing limb: flamers should be able to fire overwatch regardless of how far away the unit declaring the charge is. All flamers, not just Sisters ones.
And then Sisters should have a stratagem that deducts 1" from the enemy's charge for each wound they inflict with a Flamer weapon on Infantry and Biker keywords.
Boom, Made Flamers Great Again, and then made Sisters' flamers real.
Grundz wrote: 1: make them sisters version of wolfguard, open up their weapon options greatly, minus melta probably
I'd prefer something like this tbh.
I hear about the "devoted 22" or something like that, anyone summarize it? Guessing it's a minimalist detachment?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/01 20:14:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: I hear about the "devoted 22" or something like that, anyone summarize it? Guessing it's a minimalist detachment?
Three squads of 5 sisters with storm bolters, one canoness with the anti-psyker relic, and a second HQ.
22 would suggest running it with minimum seraphim or dominions, presumably to spend the faith points on.
Grundz wrote: 1: make them sisters version of wolfguard, open up their weapon options greatly, minus melta probably
I'd prefer something like this tbh.
I hear about the "devoted 22" or something like that, anyone summarize it? Guessing it's a minimalist detachment?
The idea is the cheapest most effective battalion.
IG have the "Loyal 32"
3x 10 Guardsmen
2x Company Commanders
32 models for 180 points. 5 CP
SoB have the "Faithful 17"
3x Battle Sister Squad
2x Canoness/Missionary
17 models for a bit over 200 depending on loadouts.
The debate of sisters over guardsmen is better durability and offense is arguable a better performance value over bodies. But, it' hasn't really caught on because no one owns the models. The current meta for an Imperial list starts with Loyal 32 + Castellan + Army you actually like
I hear about the "devoted 22" or something like that, anyone summarize it? Guessing it's a minimalist detachment?
Devoted22 is the Loyal17, but including a MSU of Dominions so that they can vanguard advance towards the enemy to stretch the Brazzer and denial-stratagem's reach into your opponent's deployment zone and cover their backfield psykers on turn1 even when you don't go first.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Haven't played for ages, but as far as I can see the beta rules contain a lot of nerfs and fiddling about with the stuff that worked (24" firepower, AoF extra moves) and no answers to problems Sisters had when I last played them in 8th (no way to force wounds past invul saves, fragility).
BBAP wrote: Haven't played for ages, but as far as I can see the beta rules contain a lot of nerfs and fiddling about with the stuff that worked (24" firepower, AoF extra moves) and no answers to problems Sisters had when I last played them in 8th (no way to force wounds past invul saves, fragility).
Is that about right?
I dont think its that doom and gloomy, we'll see when the codex comes out.
But I think GW was worried about a 3++/6+++ castle with a ton of resurrection mechanics being too tanky and overdid it
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"SoB have the "Faithful 17"
3x Battle Sister Squad
2x Canoness/Missionary "
Super stoked that I actually named something in the 40K community!
Not that anyone will believe me or care in the next 15 minutes. Alas, such is fame.
--
I'm thinking of trying out Multi-melta retributers. I want to see if Divine guidance make it worth their short range. Have them DG 1st turn to a good firing spot, and then camp away from midfield.
BBAP wrote: Haven't played for ages, but as far as I can see the beta rules contain a lot of nerfs and fiddling about with the stuff that worked (24" firepower, AoF extra moves) and no answers to problems Sisters had when I last played them in 8th (no way to force wounds past invul saves, fragility).
Is that about right?
I dont think its that doom and gloomy, we'll see when the codex comes out. But I think GW was worried about a 3++/6+++ castle with a ton of resurrection mechanics being too tanky and overdid it
Without really giving us anything to compensate, at that.
The more I read the more disappointed I am. But I guess I'm kinda used to that with GW's treatment of Sisters.
Maybe I could at least use the dex to organize my remaining sisters as allies to my BA, but not sure what exactly they'd contribute to my BA that my BA doesn't do better somehow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/02 05:18:47
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
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