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Most of my games for the last year have been 1K. The majority of players in my area are rather new, and Killteams has been a bigger sell.

I managed to source a few extra Sisters from a friend-- I can't believe I'm adding metal models so close to plastics-- and I'm able to run a full Brigade + Battalion. Is anyone else doing this? I like the idea of 20 CP to start, as it gives the option to fire off Vessels more than once. The mechanics are pretty basic: Celestine cathedral with all the stormbolters up front, Canoness castle with the Exos and a screen in the back, Dominion alpha strike, Seraphim w/ Burning Descent, HF Rets w/ Holy Trinity, and the Bloody Rose Rhino with Canoness, Celestians, Preacher, and Dialogus.

Things I wish it had: 2 more Seraphim for a full squad (+22), 2 more Celestians for a loaded Rhino (+22), 2 more Retributers for staying power and aura anchoring (+18).
Things I'm thinking about losing: Drop Jacobus for a Missionary (-15), drop combi-flamers from the Doms (-16), maybe even drop the 6th Doms (-20)
I could also drop the Rets and their Rhino altogether (but they're SO FUN!) for a third Exorcist and all of the other upgrades.

What do you all think about any or all of those swaps? Am I missing another obvious trade?

Brigade + Battalion, 136 PL, 20 CP, 2001 points

 Grundz wrote:
But I think GW was worried about a 3++/6+++ castle with a ton of resurrection mechanics being too tanky and overdid it

Seems like an odd thing to worry about when you're dealing with T3 models. At T3, the 6+++ seems like an incremental improvement to the 3++ save rather than something that'll make the army "tanky".

You're right that it's not all doom and gloom. The new Strategems seem like they could be useful (especially the 6" AoF bubble) and some of the Relics look handy. It does seem like the army will be quite Command Point-intensive though, and even with the cost reductions for everything it feels like you'd struggle to generate enough CP to matter just using AdMin units. They definitely seem less powerful than they were in the Index (which wasn't all that powerful to begin with).

 Grundz wrote:
But I think GW was worried about a 3++/6+++ castle with a ton of resurrection mechanics being too tanky and overdid it

May be that the rules were written some time back as well. They've recently been dropping points for invulns - you can get deathwatch castles sporting 3++ with a couple of terminators in each squad to soak AP small arms, and they don't price unfavourably against sisters.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
Haven't played for ages, but as far as I can see the beta rules contain a lot of nerfs and fiddling about with the stuff that worked (24" firepower, AoF extra moves) and no answers to problems Sisters had when I last played them in 8th (no way to force wounds past invul saves, fragility).

Is that about right?

I dont think its that doom and gloomy, we'll see when the codex comes out.
But I think GW was worried about a 3++/6+++ castle with a ton of resurrection mechanics being too tanky and overdid it

Without really giving us anything to compensate, at that.

The more I read the more disappointed I am. But I guess I'm kinda used to that with GW's treatment of Sisters.

Maybe I could at least use the dex to organize my remaining sisters as allies to my BA, but not sure what exactly they'd contribute to my BA that my BA doesn't do better somehow.

Nothing to compensate except a ton of tools in Stratagems, faith and relics to make each unit a lot more versatile.

I would encourage people to actually play the army in a variety of forms and not just listen to the "conventional wisdom" of how much we got nerfed. Of course, I have to remind people of this every codex.


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 BBAP wrote:
You're right that it's not all doom and gloom. The new Strategems seem like they could be useful (especially the 6" AoF bubble) and some of the Relics look handy. It does seem like the army will be quite Command Point-intensive though, and even with the cost reductions for everything it feels like you'd struggle to generate enough CP to matter just using AdMin units. They definitely seem less powerful than they were in the Index (which wasn't all that powerful to begin with).

The strats and AOF bubble can be very fun. I burned through 14 or so CP in 3-4 turns every game in the event I was at and could have used more. I would argue that they are roughly in the same place they were in in the index.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Specifically on the strats,
Vessels is good but eats a lot of CP, so go easy.
Blessed Bolts was very fun and chewed through primaris.
Trinity seemed like a fluffy, but annoying to setup power.
Descent was fun and I never thought I was going to use it. The one time I did, it really helped out and would have helped out more if I remembered they were in reserve turn 2 instead of 3. I feel like I may rethink my opposition to deep striking seraphim.
Faith and Fury makes Passion and DG even better.
Purity of Faith is great against psykers. As I mentioned, I failed like 14 of 15 denys (with Brazier) but managed to use this three times successfully (just bad dice).
I always had more faith after a few turns than CP, so never needed the generate FP ones.
And omg, how did I not see the half the number of models one before. I could have used that since it is after you roll and I always forget to do anything before I roll.

 pretre wrote:
Nothing to compensate except a ton of tools in Stratagems, faith and relics to make each unit a lot more versatile.

TBH most of the relics aren't all that spectacular or new. The faith bit isn't new though-- not sure why you think they gave us that to compensate for the nerf given that it's not something new to begin with. Stratagems are nice, but some of them are really lackluster. Really the most impactful thing for me has been the Order doctrines. Thing is, Sisters were never really top tier to begin with. So they never actually needed the nerf tbh.

Also I played the army a couple times last weekend. I'm just really not all that impressed. I'm gonna play some more tomorrow.

 Melissia wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Nothing to compensate except a ton of tools in Stratagems, faith and relics to make each unit a lot more versatile.

TBH most of the relics aren't all that spectacular or new. The faith bit isn't new though-- not sure why you think they gave us that to compensate for the nerf given that it's not something new to begin with. Stratagems are nice, but some of them are really lackluster. Really the most impactful thing for me has been the Order doctrines. Thing is, Sisters were never really top tier to begin with. So they never actually needed the nerf tbh.

Also I played the army a couple times last weekend. I'm just really not all that impressed. I'm gonna play some more tomorrow.

I'm talking about the interactions between the strats, faith and relics.

I picked the most boring of the orders (ebon) and am looking forward to getting some practice with the others. I completely agree that they weren't top tier (and never really have been), but shelving them for that would mean never actually playing them over the last 20 years.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really, what I want to see is unconventional, or interesting, uses of what we have. heck, even just battle reports so we can see what's working in the real world. That's really what we should be looking at rather than 'we got nerfed, shelf it until the codex'. I mean, if that's what you're looking for, head on over to a wishlisting thread and spend your effort there.

 MacPhail wrote:
I managed to source a few extra Sisters from a friend-- I can't believe I'm adding metal models so close to plastics-- and I'm able to run a full Brigade + Battalion. Is anyone else doing this?

Yup. So far in Jan I've purchased 10 SBs and 2 Superiors. I need to get a few more Seraphim so I can try out a 10 man squad with all bolt pistols. I only own 3 HF, 2 IP, and 5 BP seraphim.

Wild concept, but Proxy before you buy?

 alextroy wrote:
Wild concept, but Proxy before you buy?

Where's the sense of adventure in that? Plus, there's only one way to fill up a shelf.

Ha. Yeah ,I think proxying for friendly test games is the way to go. Especially with how hard and expensive it is to get some stuff.

 BBAP wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
But I think GW was worried about a 3++/6+++ castle with a ton of resurrection mechanics being too tanky and overdid it

Seems like an odd thing to worry about when you're dealing with T3 models. At T3, the 6+++ seems like an incremental improvement to the 3++ save rather than something that'll make the army "tanky".

You're right that it's not all doom and gloom. The new Strategems seem like they could be useful (especially the 6" AoF bubble) and some of the Relics look handy. It does seem like the army will be quite Command Point-intensive though, and even with the cost reductions for everything it feels like you'd struggle to generate enough CP to matter just using AdMin units. They definitely seem less powerful than they were in the Index (which wasn't all that powerful to begin with).

Ive a handful of games under my belt with them, and they are kind of fun, people are just really focused on playing them as a big 3++/6+++ footslog blob, which is pretty boring.
You are correct though, they can bring some serious pain BUT need a cp farm of some sort.
holy bolters or trinity with the +1 to hit and rerolling 1's to wound is very nasty,

really I think if you are willing to take 2 or 3 exorcists and some allies to shore up your anti tank needs so you dont need 3 squads of dominions in repressors eating all your points, its pretty doable.

Paging through the genestealer cult book, I am hopeful, cult is another army where they held back a stack of new models that really tied the book together and they look like a ton of fun to play.


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A.T. wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
But I think GW was worried about a 3++/6+++ castle with a ton of resurrection mechanics being too tanky and overdid it

May be that the rules were written some time back as well. They've recently been dropping points for invulns - you can get deathwatch castles sporting 3++ with a couple of terminators in each squad to soak AP small arms, and they don't price unfavourably against sisters.

Right
I think that this is a fair explanation of what we got, there wasn't any playtesting with "good" players like they recently did with custodes that I know of, I think they just brainstormed and threw out a "codex" of the current models, they will never tip their hand of beta rules without a model so the chapterhouse thing can't happen again.

The only real problem I see is we don't have any crazy synergies in the army, just the stacking ++ save, im sure there's more coming

 deviantduck wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I managed to source a few extra Sisters from a friend-- I can't believe I'm adding metal models so close to plastics-- and I'm able to run a full Brigade + Battalion. Is anyone else doing this?

Yup. So far in Jan I've purchased 10 SBs and 2 Superiors. I need to get a few more Seraphim so I can try out a 10 man squad with all bolt pistols. I only own 3 HF, 2 IP, and 5 BP seraphim.

I meant is anyone else running Brigade + Battalion... wondering how those extra CP are working out. But it's nice to know that I'm not alone in the madness... and I bet those stormbolters come in handy.

 Grundz wrote:
Ive a handful of games under my belt with them, and they are kind of fun, people are just really focused on playing them as a big 3++/6+++ footslog blob, which is pretty boring.

Unfortunately I don't have my collection of rhinos/immolators any more. Was part of the bits that were sold off to pay for college textbooks. Ah, c'est la vie. I'd prefer to play Sisters as mechanized MSU myself. Rhinos are quite sturdy for their price, and Immolators are pretty great, arguably better than equivalently equipped razorbacks (though razors have better choices).

Trying to decide if there's any point to taking Celestians in a Bloody Rose detachment. They gain the most benefit from the buff, and could theoretically hit pretty hard on the charge if they had a Ministorum Priest nearby (22 attacks, 3+ to hit, S4,) but you're spending 10 points more than an equivalent Battle Sisters squad and can't hold objectives as well.

Also, when I need Elites choices for Bloody Rose, I tend to go for Repentia. A lot pricier, but they actually hit really hard if I can get them into CQC. (One-shotting a Castellan hard, if six of them have a priest and a mistress nearby.) Sure, it's hard to actually get them into that CQC, but they also make a nice fire magnet in a 4++ rhino that allows my other valuable units to run forward.

Outside of a "Better than nothing" bargain choice because I'm filling out a Brigade, has anyone had luck with these?

Waaaghpower wrote:
Trying to decide if there's any point to taking Celestians in a Bloody Rose detachment. They gain the most benefit from the buff, and could theoretically hit pretty hard on the charge if they had a Ministorum Priest nearby (22 attacks, 3+ to hit, S4,) but you're spending 10 points more than an equivalent Battle Sisters squad and can't hold objectives as well.

Also, when I need Elites choices for Bloody Rose, I tend to go for Repentia. A lot pricier, but they actually hit really hard if I can get them into CQC. (One-shotting a Castellan hard, if six of them have a priest and a mistress nearby.) Sure, it's hard to actually get them into that CQC, but they also make a nice fire magnet in a 4++ rhino that allows my other valuable units to run forward.

Outside of a "Better than nothing" bargain choice because I'm filling out a Brigade, has anyone had luck with these?

I haven't, but I feel like you have some solid reasoning here. Hard to argue with repentia right now in OotBR. I see Celestians as a hedge against snipers and that's about it. I'm waiting for the new book to see a change there.


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 MacPhail wrote:
I meant is anyone else running Brigade + Battalion... wondering how those extra CP are working out. But it's nice to know that I'm not alone in the madness... and I bet those stormbolters come in handy.

I would love to run both, but vehicles suck up points. I had 14 CP and used them every time. Maybe I can find a way to fit in the Faithful 17.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grundz wrote:
Ive a handful of games under my belt with them, and they are kind of fun, people are just really focused on playing them as a big 3++/6+++ footslog blob, which is pretty boring.
You are correct though, they can bring some serious pain BUT need a cp farm of some sort.
holy bolters or trinity with the +1 to hit and rerolling 1's to wound is very nasty,

really I think if you are willing to take 2 or 3 exorcists and some allies to shore up your anti tank needs so you dont need 3 squads of dominions in repressors eating all your points, its pretty doable.

Paging through the genestealer cult book, I am hopeful, cult is another army where they held back a stack of new models that really tied the book together and they look like a ton of fun to play.

Yeah, absolutely. Also, re: the GSC, all the releases this year have REALLY made me helpful.

I did a bit of quick math:
Battle Sister melee damage versus a guardsman profile:
Vanilla - 1.115 Wounds
OoBR - 2.61 Wounds
OoBR With Priest - 3.70 Wounds

Celestian squad:
Vanilla - 2.61
OoBR - 4.887
OoBR With Priest - 6.32

A Celestian squad tends to do *about* double the damage of a Battle Sister squad, but that gap shrinks the more buffs we pour onto them. With no buffs, the damage is pitiful and not worth the points. With buffs, the damage is more noteworthy, but the difference between them and Battle Sisters becomes less worth the points.

The six wound average for the final one is enough to often wipe a guard squad (depending on the morale check), which may or may not play in to your calculations, too.

 Melissia wrote:
The six wound average for the final one is enough to often wipe a guard squad (depending on the morale check), which may or may not play in to your calculations, too.

That's true, but I'm usually doing the charge after I've already taken some wounds off in shooting.
Which leads me to BONUS ROUND math: 5 Celestians with 3 Storm Bolters, versus 6 Battle Sisters with 3 Storm Bolters. OoBR, shooting and charging, no priest.
Celestians: 9.4 Wounds
Battle Sisters: 8.2 Wounds

For 1pt more, the Celestians kill one more GEQ.

I think they're at least worth trying, though I'm not putting too much stock in their capabilities.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. I really wish Celestians could take pistol/ccw combos, they'd stand out a lot more that way. Ah well.

Can you do the math vs MEQ? Assume a power weapon of some kind on the superior.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, that sounds about right to me. I really wish Celestians could take pistol/ccw combos, they'd stand out a lot more that way. Ah well.

They'd stand out, but not in a good way. Giving up all of their 12"+ shooting and half of their within 12" shooting to get an extra attack in melee is a really bad deal.

I've been taking a squad of Celestians with no upgrades* explicitly to face-check Shieldbreaker Missiles, as if your Brazzer+Indomitable aura stick gets tagged by one the army kind of falls apart.

*At LVO they will have a single Condemnor Boltgun among them, in tribute to bad game design.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Trying to decide if there's any point to taking Celestians in a Bloody Rose detachment. They gain the most benefit from the buff, and could theoretically hit pretty hard on the charge if they had a Ministorum Priest nearby (22 attacks, 3+ to hit, S4,) but you're spending 10 points more than an equivalent Battle Sisters squad and can't hold objectives as well.

Also, when I need Elites choices for Bloody Rose, I tend to go for Repentia. A lot pricier, but they actually hit really hard if I can get them into CQC. (One-shotting a Castellan hard, if six of them have a priest and a mistress nearby.) Sure, it's hard to actually get them into that CQC, but they also make a nice fire magnet in a 4++ rhino that allows my other valuable units to run forward.

Outside of a "Better than nothing" bargain choice because I'm filling out a Brigade, has anyone had luck with these?

I've run them a handful of times. Like Repentia, it's all about delivery. Running Dominions helps draw fire, but choosing targets and then getting your Rhino across a crowded table is still tough. They can hit hard, but they're flimsy. I'm looking at two different lists:

Vanguard: Melee Canoness w/ IP and BoA, Celestians, Preacher, and Dialogus, plus a Rhino. The low CP return is a bummer, but it's easy to tack on to whatever list. I've run this a few times; they've had their Rhino shot out from under them and then been shredded on foot, but they've also finished off a Knight when the Dominions came up short.

Battalion: This is the direction I'm headed next game. Because the Preacher and Dialogus aren't Order-specific, you can list them elsewhere and still use them here, so I'm using them to fill out a Brigade. Adding 3 stock BSS will hopefully provide a second wave: the Rhino delivers the Celestians and characters, and the BSS arrive the following round. With any luck they'll get there before the wounds are exhausted up front, and provide a target for Vessels if the circumstances are right.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, that sounds about right to me. I really wish Celestians could take pistol/ccw combos, they'd stand out a lot more that way. Ah well.

Can you do the math vs MEQ? Assume a power weapon of some kind on the superior.

Against MEQ: (Axe on Bloody Rose, because you want to hit S5 for ideal performance against T4)
Vanilla, w/ Power Maul - 1.22 Wounds
OoBR, w/ Power Axe - 2.45 Wounds
OoBR, w/ Priest - 3.17 Wounds

There's not really a situation where it's worth it to take a power weapon on regular Battle Sisters, so I didn't do the math at all with them, except to check and see that a Bloody Rose squad with a priest will do 1.45 wounds.

That figures. 3.17 wounds vs meq is not spectacular to be sure. Ah well.

SoB aren't supposed to be punching people.

 deviantduck wrote:
SoB aren't supposed to be punching people.

I don't know about that. Sisters have always had a strange relationship with CC that has surprised the stuff out of opponents. Even in 3rd, we could tarpit like the best of them and wear down opponents in hand to hand (not counting reds who could just eat whole armies).

 pretre wrote:
Even in 3rd, we could tarpit like the best of them and wear down opponents in hand to hand

It's been a while, but my recollection of the witch hunters is that they tarpitted via moral mitigation (and sometimes 3++) while getting slaughtered, hoping to hold until the opponents turn rolled around to deliberately kill the book holder (and therefore the squad) leaving the attackers exposed to shooting attacks.

All the actual killing was done by the jump canoness and seraphim with eviscerators.

 pretre wrote:
Even in 3rd, we could tarpit like the best of them and wear down opponents in hand to hand (not counting reds who could just eat whole armies).

Yeah, I'd really like to have that back. I miss it.

A.T. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Even in 3rd, we could tarpit like the best of them and wear down opponents in hand to hand

It's been a while, but my recollection of the witch hunters is that they tarpitted via moral mitigation (and sometimes 3++) while getting slaughtered, hoping to hold until the opponents turn rolled around to deliberately kill the book holder (and therefore the squad) leaving the attackers exposed to shooting attacks.

All the actual killing was done by the jump canoness and seraphim with eviscerators.

there was something to be said about swinging back with S5 sisters (albeit striking at I1) or I6 sisters in a pinch. I had a good bit of fun back then with a calidus assassin and melee inquisitor supporting my sisters.

A.T. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Even in 3rd, we could tarpit like the best of them and wear down opponents in hand to hand

It's been a while, but my recollection of the witch hunters is that they tarpitted via moral mitigation (and sometimes 3++) while getting slaughtered, hoping to hold until the opponents turn rolled around to deliberately kill the book holder (and therefore the squad) leaving the attackers exposed to shooting attacks.

All the actual killing was done by the jump canoness and seraphim with eviscerators.

Well, yeah. You wouldn't run and could tank any hits that needed to be tanked.
The Canoness or Superior has an evis and chews through while the unit holds.
Alternatively, with Redemptionists, you both tarpitted and ripped things apart with 4-5 eviscerators.