Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 deviantduck wrote:

That's only the primary guns firing once. So 3 punisher tanks can statistically easily kill 6x 5 man sisters squads a turn. Since we're keen on points returns, that's 450 points gaining 300+ back a turn.

Except that the main gun can only fire twice at the same target, so 3 punishers statistically kill 3x 5-girl sister squads a turn.

So 450 points is gaining back 153 points a turn.

And keep in mind that these are the most efficient anti-infantry unit available to IG, and pop like pinatas to Exorcists, where 3x Exorcists will statistically kill 1.5 Punisher TCs per turn.

 BBAP wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm fairly sure a leman Russ is going to kill an entire squad of five with just it's battle cannon. It's hull and sponsons will kill a bunch more. So, sure, 300 points in russ killed 150 points in sisters, but at the same time, they can do that every turn until you cross the board. So if crossing the board takes you three turns, then it means that eight Russ have killed 12 squads a turn for three turns. That's every squad you just fielded on the first turn.

I'm going to ignore the fact this list is (a) impossible to run with sponsons at 1250pts in Matched Play no matter what Leman Russ variant you use and (b) obviously tailored to take on mine and tremendously weak against pretty much anything else.

Leaving that aside, Intuition-hammer suggests the numbers aren't with you to the extent you seem to believe. Even if I give you clear LoS across the table and 12 shots a turn with every turret, there are more scenarios where 2 Leman Russes with HB Sponsons (which is 332pts, not 300) **don't** kill 5 Sisters a turn each than there are scenarios where they do. If I'm the Guard player I'd plan on 10-20 dead Sisters a turn realistically.

That said, I don't like theoryhammer so I'm going to run a little experiment. I'll come back to this later once I'm done.

Spearhead detachment.
Done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

That's only the primary guns firing once. So 3 punisher tanks can statistically easily kill 6x 5 man sisters squads a turn. Since we're keen on points returns, that's 450 points gaining 300+ back a turn.

Except that the main gun can only fire twice at the same target, so 3 punishers statistically kill 3x 5-girl sister squads a turn.

So 450 points is gaining back 153 points a turn.

And keep in mind that these are the most efficient anti-infantry unit available to IG, and pop like pinatas to Exorcists, where 3x Exorcists will statistically kill 1.5 Punisher TCs per turn.

No, we're talking about leman russ, not mortar squads, or wyverns.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

That's only the primary guns firing once. So 3 punisher tanks can statistically easily kill 6x 5 man sisters squads a turn. Since we're keen on points returns, that's 450 points gaining 300+ back a turn.

Except that the main gun can only fire twice at the same target, so 3 punishers statistically kill 3x 5-girl sister squads a turn.

So 450 points is gaining back 153 points a turn.

And keep in mind that these are the most efficient anti-infantry unit available to IG, and pop like pinatas to Exorcists, where 3x Exorcists will statistically kill 1.5 Punisher TCs per turn.

Didn't realize it was twice at the same target. That cuts down the number of squads, but guarantees the elimination of the ones it does target. I think I've only been able to kill a leman russ with 2x exos once now. My luck with exos has been not enough dakka or way too much overkill.

These comparisons are insightful and maybe even essential, but I still win games mainly by outscoring my opponent on mission criteria, not by making him kill my little things with his big things. Footslogging Sisters, even with some of the movement tricks we've discussed, just don't redeploy quickly enough for me to play the mission effectively. I need 2-4 mechanized units plus Seraphim just to put pressure on the scoreboard.

I've gotta concur with McPhail here. Having a several of mobile small but relatively durable units is more useful than having a few more slow footlogger units.

And I'll be honest, I don't see stormbolter spam being that powerful even-- it's not like you can use a stratagem every time your squads fire to give them Blessed Bolts given that in matched play you can only use stratagems once each per turn. If you could use it on every single SB squad in a single turn to deliver ridiculous burst damage across the board, perhaps it'd be more impressive, but even a dominion squad's worth of SBs is likely to be out-damaged against vehicles (especially Knights) by meltas -without- the meltas using a command point.

PuppetSoul wrote:


And keep in mind that these are the most efficient anti-infantry unit available to IG, and pop like pinatas to Exorcists, where 3x Exorcists will statistically kill 1.5 Punisher TCs per turn.

I'll double in on that, my list of 3x exorcists and a crusader, you dont really have any firepower to spare and shoot at little sisters squads because those 4 models are picking up a lot of your stuff every turn if left unchecked.

I've had less than stellar luck with exorcists, myself. They are VERY hit and miss, extremely swingy-- felt like playing Orks again, but without weight of fire to even out the averages.

deviantduck wrote:The current IG hotness is tank commanders with punishers and plasma sponsons, or if you're running LRBTs you take conquerors (if you can find them). With Orks being decent, and prevalent in the meta, anti-horde is still a priority. This puts sisters in boots in a bad position.

How so? Foot Sisters will hose Boyz away by the bushel, can be screened from charges, and can't be killed in pairs by surrounding their transport with Boyz and popping it. They're worried by Lootaz, but so are mech Sisters.

Here's some math

That's the mean average. 95% of the time you'll get some permutation of this result that falls within 2 standard deviations of the one you calculated, so if you're serious about being statistical you need to think in terms of "between [x] and [y]". The mean is 3.5 Sisters. The likely outcome is between 2 and 5 Sisters.

So, you've killed between 2 and 5 Sisters with your LRP. It's now sitting 24" from my lines and is going to choke down some return fire. I might not kill it, but I'll do more damage to it than I would've if it'd been sitting 34" away firing Battlecannons and Heavy Bolters.

Mmmpi wrote:Spearhead detachment.
Done.

How does that help? 8 Leman Russes with sponsons is 1344pts. If you ditch the sponsons it's about 1216pts, but since the 3 Heavy Bolters will generally kill more Sisters than the Batttlecannons I'm not sure you can afford to.

It also breaks the rule of three. And, crucially, such a list would be even more effective against mech Sisters than it would against footsloggers. I did a few Vassal sims on a flat table with 9 Cadian HB-LRBTs (6 Commanders, 3 normal tanks) and the quickest I managed to get my 1213pt Sisters army off the table was turn 4. Twice they managed to survive to the end of the game. I reckon you could get 1213pts of mech Sisters off the table a lot quicker.

deviantduck wrote:Didn't realize it was twice at the same target. That cuts down the number of squads, but guarantees the elimination of the ones it does target.

If you're using Punishers it might. Not if you're using Battlecannons. Not even with the Cadian tank order.

MacPhail wrote:These comparisons are insightful and maybe even essential, but I still win games mainly by outscoring my opponent on mission criteria, not by making him kill my little things with his big things. Footslogging Sisters, even with some of the movement tricks we've discussed, just don't redeploy quickly enough for me to play the mission effectively. I need 2-4 mechanized units plus Seraphim just to put pressure on the scoreboard.

Again, mobility is an issue with footsloggers, but it's less of an issue for Sisters with a Book Canoness. Power your blob into midfield with Hand/ Vessels and split units off of it to grab flags as needed. If you're playing ITC missions there are some secondaries you can't even consider, but that's the same for every army build.

Melissia wrote:I've gotta concur with McPhail here. Having a several of mobile small but relatively durable units is more useful than having a few more slow footlogger units.

It's not a "few" more - it's four or five times as many. If you hit Hand/ Vessels on your Book Canoness then roll a 3 for your Advance you're moving as fast as a vehicle without Hand. If you roll a 4+ you're moving faster than most of the vehicles in the game.

Sure, you can't shoot with units that Advance, but that's part of the reason you bring a tonne of units.

And I'll be honest, I don't see stormbolter spam being that powerful even-- it's not like you can use a stratagem every time your squads fire to give them Blessed Bolts given that in matched play you can only use stratagems once each per turn.

You don't need Blessed Bolts to make SB spam work. Rolling a tonne of dice at people is enough on its own, and that's before you throw in Guidance/ Vessels on a Book Canoness with a 9" RR1H aura.

even a dominion squad's worth of SBs is likely to be out-damaged against vehicles (especially Knights) by meltas -without- the meltas using a command point.

Well... yeah. Repentia will outdamage Storm Bolters when taking on vehicles. Problem is both Repentia and Meltas need to get close to even attack vehicles whereas Storm Bolters can do it from halfway across the table. Storm Bolters are also hugely cheaper than either of those things and can thus be spammed.

If you want big damage and quick vehicle/ Monster kills then Storm Bolters aren't what you're looking for, but if you want those things you probably shouldn't be playing Sisters in the first place.

Storm Bolters being spammed doesn't make much of a difference if they never kill anything.

How does that help? 8 Leman Russes with sponsons is 1344pts. If you ditch the sponsons it's about 1216pts, but since the 3 Heavy Bolters will generally kill more Sisters than the Batttlecannons I'm not sure you can afford to.

It also breaks the rule of three. And, crucially, such a list would be even more effective against mech Sisters than it would against footsloggers. I did a few Vassal sims on a flat table with 9 Cadian HB-LRBTs (6 Commanders, 3 normal tanks) and the quickest I managed to get my 1213pt Sisters army off the table was turn 4. Twice they managed to survive to the end of the game. I reckon you could get 1213pts of mech Sisters off the table a lot quicker.

I was off on the points, but rule of three isn't an issue. You get to take LR's in squads remember, so including commanders, you can have 11 (only two HQ tanks due to spearhead).

The other side of the coin though, is how much damage did your sisters do in return?

With Storm Bolters? Basically nothing.

Yeah, that's what I was assuming, but wanted someone else to say it.

So, four rounds on average to wipe out an all SB, MSU style force using just leman russ. Six rounds at most, and minimal damage to the IG force in the process. Would probably be ending the game with 8/8 Russ still intact and mostly undamaged.

Does anything think it's viable to run 2 units of 9 acro flagellants on foot with celestine nearby for the 6++ and 5+++.
Or do they really need a transport? I'm guessing they really need a rhino.

I was also thinking of having a hospitaller following them around, she makes her points back reviving just 2 models.
Thoughts?

whitelion40k wrote:
Does anything think it's viable to run 2 units of 9 acro flagellants on foot with celestine nearby for the 6++ and 5+++.
Or do they really need a transport? I'm guessing they really need a rhino.

I was also thinking of having a hospitaller following them around, she makes her points back reviving just 2 models.
Thoughts?

I think with something like that, you're going to need a lot more threats so your opponent has to make tough choices that keep those arcos alive. This is usually where Doms come in.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Yeah, that's what I was assuming, but wanted someone else to say it.

So, four rounds on average to wipe out an all SB, MSU style force using just leman russ. Six rounds at most, and minimal damage to the IG force in the process. Would probably be ending the game with 8/8 Russ still intact and mostly undamaged.

If the Russ force gets tragically unlucky, they might lose one or two of their vehicles, but it wouldn't really change the course of the game.

Each Storm Bolter round has a 0.667% chance to hit, a 0.167% chance to wound, with a 0.334% chance to pass through the armor save. This roughly adds up to a 3.7% chance to cause a single wound to a leman russ with each shot. Assuming dominions with five storm bolters, that's 10 shots at 24" and 20 shots at 48". Each squad would thus have roughly a 1/3rd chance to wound a Punisher once per turn at max range and a 2/3rds chance to woudn a Punisher once per turn at rapid fire range. The Punishers have the same max range on their main guns, and assuming the optimal loadout of 3x heavy bolters, will be putting shots downrange before the groundpounding Sisters can reach them. Once the Sisters do reach them, the Punishers will be -deleting- squads with 49 rounds per punisher per turn-- yes, 40 of those rounds must all be on the same squad, but that squad is more than likely simply gone in the process, while the other 9 shots can be split off to finish off a squad that was merely damaged in an earlier turn. Or more bluntly, it would take on average of 36 rounds of max range shooting or 18 rounds of rapid-range shooting to destroy a Punisher with a squad of Dominions full of SBs. The entire force focus firing all 144 of its storm bolter shots would cause on average five wounds and thus take three turns uninterrupted to kill a single Leman Russ. If we factor in the retributors, it might take two turns to kill a single Leman Russ assuming the Sisters take no losses while firing at rapid fire range (which is nigh-impossible).

Meanwhile, if those Sisters had packed even just a couple of rhinos or immolators or repressors full of meltaguns, the game would massively swing back in to the favor of the Sisters, while still leaving Sisters with options to deal with non-tank forces.

The list given is a highly specialized anti-infantry force with ONLY anti-infantry firepower. It'd quite possibly slaughter an Ork horde, but against a force of Knights or a mechanized force, it's practically doomed.

 Melissia wrote:

The list given is a highly specialized anti-infantry force with ONLY anti-infantry firepower.

BSS throw high volumes of bolter fire with a dash of AP2 D2; you bring some combination of Exorcists and/or allies to deal with the big stuff, because Sisters are terrible at dealing with high toughness targets that have invuln saves (due to their existing assault elements being terribad, Exorcists being unreliable, and not having access to a Smashcanoness).

I am jumping in real late here, but I have some insights to share.

LONG time Sisters of Battle player. I have never felt the codex was noncompetitive in any of its incarnations (and I am probably alone there), and my evidence for saying that is that I have won more tournaments with Sisters of Battle than any other faction I play...and that's a lot of factions and a very good number of wins.

This Codex is definitely the first time I have experienced REAL frustration. The Codex definitely positively is not as good as its predecessors in the meta those predecessors played in.

My first experiment was with what I saw as an obvious build. The Codex Has a FANTASTIC unit in the Arco-Flagellents, and then excellent Dominion squads. These Dominion have almost always been in good Sisters lists since they gained the scout rule and later the Vanguard rule (really the same things almost). So mechanized I went. These squads did not disappoint but the results were frustratingly consistent. 7-4 in events was my record, not good enough to win events. Also the wins were razor thin and the losses were too. In other words it was always scrapping for points and putting pressure on the score board, but being "one of the best losers" is not a goal I embrace.

So then, I gave up and took my T'au to the LVO instead.

BUT... I came back with fresh ideas on how to play them from that experience and have begun to try a new idea which looks SUSPICIOUSLY like the one I played in 4th Edition:

15 Sisters Squads.

Back then in 4E I reasoned that the extra bodies in the squads WERE the rhino, and depending on what the enemy had, I would end with many more bodies on the field when I arrived than if I used the Rhinos to get there. Back in 4th I used 17 sisters squads because you could, but in 8th its only 15, so what can ya do.

That same reasoning is making sense to me now and I am finding out that it is effective. Because you can now advance like you couldn't in 4E, you can usually get there by turn three and sometimes sooner (but of course, objectives do force them to you somewhat).

My observations are:
1. 103 Power armored Veteran Guardsman (Sisters of Battle in other words) is a lot of bodies to kill when you can proffer them 4+ invulnerable saves as you surge forward.
2. First round Advancing makes infinite sense unless the enemy is an aggressive variety.
3. Castellans don't deal as well against hordes as they might against elites, especially 4+ invul variety, so this is a meta-driven advantage.
4. Splitting up your heavy firepower (meltas) and burying it deep within that many bodies maintains your ability to threaten major targets for a lot longer than making them one shot "aha! Gotcha!" attacks that must be relied on IN that round to succeed...or else you lose big. You don't have to "gamble" as much when you have them this way.
5. 3 Exorcists are the best red herrings ever to protect your Sisters from inordinate amounts of early heavy firepower as the enemy cannot trust that YOUR dice will fail you as often as in fact they do when wielding an Exorcist. Plus Exorcist aren't getting 4+ saves unless they travel with the rest of the army and the enemy knows it...
6. the change to the exorcist damage output was a SIGNIFICANT change and much needed. I have been surprised in a pleasant way with their production. Elite armies such as Custodes Bike armies are finding them painful to deal with, and sheer volume of fire makes Bolters somewhat more effective than the Custodes would like. Orks find a similar truth. They jump up and attack, kill an entire unit of Sisters (usually) and dangle in the wind. A more than fair trade in most instances. Tri-pointing them instead of killing them outright on the charge is a nasty trick the good Ork generals have learned, but it's tougher to do with T3 Sisters of Battle. So you want to ""bow inward" with your Battle Sisters on the flanks to ensure you can kill off the Sisters on the end and avoid tri-pointing.
7. Taking objectives with this much objective secured is so much easier than it was when trying to make elite things like Dominions and Arco-Flaggellents work.
8. Soubursting is not NEARLY as easy for the Ynnari against the large Sisters squads and the Shining Spears, once they are far from Psyker support, don't deal well with the retribution that comes after their inevitable and impressive charges.

I plan to take my list to a GT on the 23rd and test it out in a bigger pool but thus far, the observations i mention have resulted in victory. WAY more important than that has been how many more points I've been able to score with this version. As the ITC players know, you can't JUST win. You need to have significant victories to hedge out the other 5-0 players. at the end of the race. In GT's, there are inevitably 3 and sometimes 4 of them at bigger events. Flying nap of the earth will always get you in the top 4 but who wants 4th place?

Inspired by the two parallel conversations running over this page and the last (infantry vs. armor and storm bolter vs. melta), I'm brainstorming a new list, but I don't know which Orders are best suited. I'd have to build three new Rhinos, but other than that I think I can actually play it.

Roughly, it's this:

3x Exorcists for anti-tank
with...
Canoness for rerolls
3x Dominions with Stormbolters in Rhinos for board control
with room for...
2x BSS with max melta for anti-tank
and...
Canoness, Celestine, Dialogus, and Preacher for a forward aura bubble
4x BSS for screening, camping, and to fill Brigade
3x BSS in Immolators for rapid deployment to objectives
Canoness & Missionary for Battalion

So that's a Brigade plus a Battalion with the right filler. Plan on using the short Vanguard move to get BSS meltas and HQs up the table and put SBs in range first turn. It sort of abandons the bubble castle, or at least pushes it across the board, probably looking to overload a flank. Exos and Immos do their part. 20 CP for multiple Vessels ups the damage output...

So what Order or Orders seem right. Bloody Rose on the forward blob of stormbolters and meltas, I assume. Sacred Rose on the backfield campers? Or just Bloody Rose for everyone to make the Turn 1 castle easier?

 Jancoran wrote:

My observations are:
1. The Pink Tide is was really good.

You'll find that TPT does not fairly nearly as well with the new Vindicare Assassin in the meta, and is essentially an autoloss as it easily downs the characters in the deathstar two at a time.

The only counter to this strategy seems to be to bring one yourself and go first.

Likewise, the new Beta Bolter rule combined with the formation causes even a single set of Intercessors to rip through multiple squads of girls each turn at 30", so massed 3+/4++ does effectively nothing when the meta is built around 2+/3++ being the new standard for elites.

PuppetSoul wrote:
You'll find that FOOT SISTERS does not fairly nearly as well with the new Vindicare Assassin in the meta, and is essentially an autoloss as it easily downs the characters in the deathstar two at a time

I was thinking that taking a unit of Celestians is going to be required for keeping Canonesses and such alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MacPhail wrote:

So what Order or Orders seem right. Bloody Rose on the forward blob of stormbolters and meltas, I assume. Sacred Rose on the backfield campers? Or just Bloody Rose for everyone to make the Turn 1 castle easier?

Overwatch seems like a good mix to this one. BR, I'm not sure it's going to get you a lot of punch.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

My observations are:
1. The Pink Tide is was really good.

You'll find that TPT does not fairly nearly as well with the new Vindicare Assassin in the meta, and is essentially an autoloss as it easily downs the characters in the deathstar two at a time.

The only counter to this strategy seems to be to bring one yourself and go first.

Likewise, the new Beta Bolter rule combined with the formation causes even a single set of Intercessors to rip through multiple squads of girls each turn at 30", so massed 3+/4++ does effectively nothing when the meta is built around 2+/3++ being the new standard for elites.

I would point out to you that while i have not seen a Vindicare Assassin yet against me since that dropped (though I fully expect to) I also have often split my forces such that they aren't really all getting the 4+ anyways. So I respect the IDEA that you can try to snipe out a couple characters (I'm a frequent proponent of snipers in general and took 12 of them in my T'au army to LVO which did WORK) I am not entirely dependent on the mechanic. Also, with the massive variety of armies, I don't expect to see a Vindicare, let alone more than one, in a huge number of armies. But yes. I will see and respect them as much as I obviously should. Celestine gets to live twice, so I mean... you can down her but it might take you a couple of rounds of concerted fire from more than one Vindicare.

I'm not discounting the point. I just don't know if Celestines death is going to be a deathblow to my chances. As it is, she is FAR less important to the army given the nerfs to Sisters of Battle in general. I don't even take the bodyguards any more, but of course I could easily add them if I see ENOUGH Vindicare's to care.

I'll be honest, Intercessors are cool and all, but you pay for them. If you can get a couple of their units tied up for a round with Celestine and/or Seraphim, even if its just a round, I like my chances.

Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex, and so all things that i say have to be viewed through the lens that only the very good Generals are going to be able to ride them to GT victories anyways. They are at a deep competitive disadvantage ATM, as I mentioned in my original post, more than they ever have been. Surprising to have to say that with all the new toys, but true. So I do not come to suggest that they have some magical key to the meta. I am explaining the things I have learned in battling that meta and the thought behind it. Thus far nothing but victory, convincing victory. I'll see how it goes when assassins show up.

 Jancoran wrote:
Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,

Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.

 pretre wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,

Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.

Subjectively I have to disagree. We had flying Canosses and though limited, we could compete in mid-tier, right now Sisters códex scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

 davidgr33n wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,

Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.

Subjectively I have to disagree. We had flying Canosses and though limited, we could compete in mid-tier, right now Sisters códex scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

Blackbook had none of that. WD 2011 couldn't take Jump pack Canonesses and each unit had a unique AoF that was pretty lackluster.

I have to say, playing in small local tournaments and groups, 3 Penitent Engines and Celestine together are quite the dual.

I usually run two Exorcist with a plain cannoness and the loyal 32.

If my opponent isn't focused on that, the Engines and Living Saint pretty much rush into the main bulk of the opponent's army.

Three Engines are something to worry about. While 2 Exorcist are hopefully lobing holy shells of righteousness across the board. Sometimes I will try to splash (on turn 1) Divine Guidance on them, not really worth it though.

3 squads of BBS in Imm tanks with multi meltas to hold objectives / harass.

The Engines to me have been key. Maybe its just my group, but with the 4+/6++/5+++ they almost all three make it into battle. Dealing out 24 S10 -3AP 3Dam wounds... they wreck anything.

Thoughts?

 zaahul wrote:
The Engines to me have been key. Maybe its just my group, but with the 4+/6++/5+++ they almost all three make it into battle. Dealing out 24 S10 -3AP 3Dam wounds... they wreck anything.

It's going to depend on your local area, but my answer is the same as for the arcos above.
You have to provide your opponent with a choice that is more clear than shooting the choppy PEs. If they are shooting at something else, they aren't going to shoot at the PEs. I don't think the PEs are going to live if they concentrate on them. The 4+/6++/5+++ doesn't really stop them from getting gunned down well enough. But if your opponent is distracted by other things? Yeah, they'll do work.

In my recent games, this has happened with repentia. Why worry about one little chunk of girls with chainsaws when there's Celestine, Dominions and Exorcists all chewing up your army? And then the Repentia charge and things get reaaaal choppy.

 pretre wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,

Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.

I never had a problem winning with the Witch Hunters codex. White Dwarf Codex also won me a few events.

No. I haven't been frustrated enough to be negative about a Sisters codex before and I've played them all extensively and successfully. I can only speak for myself on the way I found to use each one but this newest one vexes me something fierce.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,

Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.

Subjectively I have to disagree. We had flying Canosses and though limited, we could compete in mid-tier, right now Sisters códex scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

Blackbook had none of that. WD 2011 couldn't take Jump pack Canonesses and each unit had a unique AoF that was pretty lackluster.

The individualized Acts of Faith turned out to be useful. So I was fine with them. It bothered me that they changed it in WD but it didnt stop me from actually doing well. So I never felt hog tied. It was also the first and only time a Celestian Squad has made it into my list so I mean... For what little its worth, the White Dwarf fluff changes pissed me off far more than the reality of its play.

 pretre wrote:

I was thinking that taking a unit of Celestians is going to be required for keeping Canonesses and such alive.

The only unit from the deathstar that can pass wounds to Celestians is the Canoness; everything else lacks the Order keyword.

That said, if you have a second Canoness, a Mistress, or an Imagifier (the only characters with the Order keyword), then it becomes a liability, as the unimportant one can be sniped to wipe the Celestian squad, and then double-tap strat to hit the WL Canoness and down her.

Passing thought on Valorous Heart: it might be useful for dedicated backfield screens and objective campers.

Say you spread a Battalion's worth of Sisters across your back line and HQ with Celestine and a Missionary so your main detachment can share an Order with all your Canoni. Your opponent easily deletes one or more of these in the shooting phase to make a hole for their deep strikers on Turn 2. A 1 in 6 chance for 5 models means somebody probably stands back up, and you could even add another with an AoF on your turn. At worst you force your opponent to allocate another unit's shooting, and at best you buy yourself an extra turn with a secured backfield. Same principle applies to objectives... you are slightly harder to dislodge at range.

So, best option for backfield campers, or are the Roses still stronger?

 Jancoran wrote:

Also, with the massive variety of armies, I don't expect to see a Vindicare, let alone more than one, in a huge number of armies. But yes. I will see and respect them as much as I obviously should. Celestine gets to live twice, so I mean... you can down her but it might take you a couple of rounds of concerted fire from more than one Vindicare.

Vindicare's doubletap strat is huge, and essentially free. And Assassins are being added as 85pt reserves, so that they can pull in a Vindicare if the enemy has soft targets, and a Callidus or Eversor if they don't.

 MacPhail wrote:

So, best option for backfield campers, or are the Roses still stronger?

You shouldn't be using Sisters as backfield objective campers, because they don't have long range weapons to make them relevant. For a similar price you can take scouts with snipers.

For everything 12" optimal range, Bloody Rose is better.