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MacPhail wrote: I had her in my hands in the store when I realized she'd be almost $40 with tax... my entire monthly budget for the hobby! Maybe with a special stat line or rule of some sort, or even just a hard to convert war gear option... but for a basic Sister Superior with bolt gun, no thanks.
I bought two.
I read this and immediately flashed on Starship troopers when the kids were stomping on the bugs. We're doing our part!
I suckered someone into running an event for me so I actually get to play in a real life LOCAL event. Whuuuuuuut.
So I'm bringing Sisters again. Hoping to get my 4th result in for them for the year (for ITC worldwide rankings). Gotta have at least four good scores to get a good ranking.
Now that there is not one but two events on the horizon I can take them to, the big question is: do I Vindicare or not?
Its EFFECTIVELY going to cost me 4 Command Points. I run a Brigade. so i start with 15.
If I do take the Vindicare, it means i must also lose the Brigade because I would be dropping my 3rd Heavy Support which forces me into a pair of Battallions (ergo, 2 more CP lost). I'd have to add a bare bones Canoness at that point probably, so no room for a third Heavy Support. It's an issue. And if I give her a relic sword or something thats gonna be another 2 cp! yeesh.
so I would be paying 4 CP minimum and an Exorcist to gain a Canoness and an Assassin. That seems like an incredibly steep price, but the Assassins utility is undeniable, and manys the time i wish i had one.
Suck it up and just live without the Assassin or do the deed and stop the damn buffing shenanigans of the enemy?
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Grundz wrote: Assassins are really, really nice but i'd trim a few sisters out of a few squads rather than drop an exo, thats too much.
yup,, its such a sliver thin line right now. The magic of the list seems to rely on bodies so that I dont give up killed more so often. Holding more with a lot of obsec is good.
The trouble is certain lists can just REALLY truck me. Aberrants ganked me pretty good in one of my losses (mostly due to my failed Acts of Faith but still.... it can happen). Another loss came at the hands of Wulfen who were simply unkillable. It wasn't that I couldn't put out the firepower its that they ignored it. The only other loss was to DeathGuard, but that one was sort of avoidable. Here again though, the fortitude of certain units can make what looks like a winnable game statistically improbable. not many lists have done it but those three did.
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Mmmpi wrote: Wait, do they even have rules in apocalypse?
Yes, everything does. All rules for datasheets are free and can be DL right now via their apoc website.
I pointed it out, i have a solid 200PL so i most likely will be playing them a few times in Apoc. but im going to test out my Nids first (mostly b.c i have so many models i can use and i can do 500pl and with units i havent even played in 8th yet) for my DE as i have insane amount of models for them.
Edit: englirsh be herd
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/09 04:02:00
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 14:25:46
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Mmmpi wrote: Wait, do they even have rules in apocalypse?
Yes, everything does. All rules for datasheets are free and can be DL right now via their apoc website.
I pointed it out, i have a solid 200PL so i most likely will be playing them a few times in Apoc. but im going to test out my Nids first (mostly b.c i have so many models i can use and i can do 500pl and with units i havent even played in 8th yet) for my DE as i have insane amount of models for them.
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
What I would be doing/potentially doing is putting an Assassin and a 5 man Retributor Squad (naked) in to replace one Exorcist.
Its the only way to keep the Brigade and make it fit.
You really need a 2+ rerollable AoF on every unit? You could save 40pts pulling the extra simulacrums off of the 4 units that can't benefit from the 3++. Then you'd at least be able to afford a HB ret squad. If you've got it for The Passion, i'm sure you can afford the extra 14% chance of not killing that additional .8 of a marine with the biggest squad.
Also, what's the gimmick on the imagifier again? Is it just 2+ rerollable Vessels? Might be worth the points to have a hospitaller and a 3+ reroll unless you're really spamming out Vessels.
Yeah some notes
-Dialogus doesn't have an <order> so indomitable belief literally does nothing on her?
-you can move the flamer to a sister and give the superior a melta pistol to save a few points on the one or two squads in the front that are going to get mulched anyway
-you could save another few by putting a power sword on the canoness, and/or dropping a squad or two to 8 sisters instead of 10
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Grundz wrote: Yeah some notes
-Dialogus doesn't have an <order> so indomitable belief literally does nothing on her?
-you can move the flamer to a sister and give the superior a melta pistol to save a few points on the one or two squads in the front that are going to get mulched anyway
-you could save another few by putting a power sword on the canoness, and/or dropping a squad or two to 8 sisters instead of 10
The dialogus doesn't need an order to take the Warlord trait. She just doesn't personally benefit from it, but units with <Order> do.
The Combiflamer unit is set up for Holy Trinity.
Dropping Sisters is the one thing I can do, tis true if I want to keep the Exorcist.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
What I would be doing/potentially doing is putting an Assassin and a 5 man Retributor Squad (naked) in to replace one Exorcist.
Its the only way to keep the Brigade and make it fit.
You really need a 2+ rerollable AoF on every unit? You could save 40pts pulling the extra simulacrums off of the 4 units that can't benefit from the 3++. Then you'd at least be able to afford a HB ret squad. If you've got it for The Passion, i'm sure you can afford the extra 14% chance of not killing that additional .8 of a marine with the biggest squad.
Also, what's the gimmick on the imagifier again? Is it just 2+ rerollable Vessels? Might be worth the points to have a hospitaller and a 3+ reroll unless you're really spamming out Vessels.
Thanks.
Acts of Faith are very important if you want to be able to overcome your casualties. One of my 3 losses came because I could not get my Acts of Faith off on 3+ re-rollable (TWICE IN A ROW), which prompted me to make absolutely sure in the future. Lol. Many more of my wins i think I can safely say were heavily contributed to through the reliability of making sure that when I need the Emperors help, it's there.
One of the best things about the Vessel of the Emperor is that effects the Exorcists. As unreliable as they are, you really really need that to happen as well. Since I am totally without transports in this list, and I am GOING INTO the maw of madness with Bolter and my faith, I'd rather not just be going in with JUST my bolter.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/12 15:25:14
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
The dialogus doesn't need an order to take the Warlord trait. She just doesn't personally benefit from it, but units with <Order> do.
Is that right? I always treated keywords like that as a variable thats inherited
Ex: if a model has <chapter> (ultramarines); and I use a stratagem that says "nearby <chapter> infantry get rerolls lets say, <chapter> must match the <chapter> (ultramarines); from the unit I'm playing the stratagem on, not just any <chapter>
Is that not right? if it isn't I think I need to try and squeeze a unit of feel no pain celestians in my list
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/12 15:50:25
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Jancoran wrote: There is no rule like what you mention. Take the ability as read. The Dialogus won't benefit from the trait of course. But thats not really an issue.
Specifically paragraph 1
It doesn't have the <order> keyword, therefore you don't get to nominate which <order> the unit is from, so you cannot proceed to the second step and replace the <order>; keyword in every instance on the units datasheet, it stays as just "<order>"; where every other model in your army has an actual order like bloody rose
Since it doesn't match, the dialogus gets the trait, but it cannot effect any model
is that not a "taking the ability as read" ?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/13 17:18:20
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Jancoran wrote: There is no rule like what you mention. Take the ability as read. The Dialogus won't benefit from the trait of course. But thats not really an issue.
Specifically paragraph 1
It doesn't have the <order> keyword, therefore you don't get to nominate which <order> the unit is from, so you cannot proceed to the second step and replace the <order>; keyword in every instance on the units datasheet, it stays as just "<order>"; where every other model in your army has an actual order like bloody rose
Since it doesn't match, the dialogus gets the trait, but it cannot effect any model
is that not a "taking the ability as read" ?
Theres literally no correlation. Dialogus doesnt have an order. That does not stop the character from taking a warlord trait, like at all.
There is no step because the trait states very clearly who it affects.
The end . It affects 《order》 people, which is whatever order you choose to have it affect. Thats it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/14 06:32:05
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Theres literally no correlation. Dialogus doesnt have an order. That does not stop the character from taking a warlord trait, like at all.
There is no step because the trait states very clearly who it affects.
The end . It affects 《order》 people, which is whatever order you choose to have it affect. Thats it.
The Dialogus does not have an order correct
That does not stop the character from taking the warlord trait
This is correct
"It affects 《order》 people, which is whatever order you choose to have it affect. Thats it."
This is incorrect
RAW If the unit has the ((order)) keyword itself, not just one of its abilities, The order keywords on its data sheet are changed to "order of the bloody rose" as per the paragraph I stated
RAW If the unit does not have the ((order)) keyword, it does not for fill the prerequisite as read, so you do not get to replace the ((order)) keyword with anything else.
Short version
When you include a unit with the <order> keyword, you chose an order, and then replace all instances of <order> with that order
Since the dialogus does not have the <order> keyword, it does not chose an order, so you cannot replace all instances of <order> with that order
Is this hard to understand
If A then B
You do not forfill the A requirement, so you do not get to do B
I had no idea that ITC was so fast and loose with clearly worded rules
The other way of reading it is that all sororitas units have the <order> keyword, like it says
dialogus has the sororitas keyword, so it must be a sororitas unit
why aren't we just handing out the order keyword to those models and only doing the parts of the rule that we want to?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/14 10:34:48
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The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
What I would be doing/potentially doing is putting an Assassin and a 5 man Retributor Squad (naked) in to replace one Exorcist.
Its the only way to keep the Brigade and make it fit.
You really need a 2+ rerollable AoF on every unit? You could save 40pts pulling the extra simulacrums off of the 4 units that can't benefit from the 3++. Then you'd at least be able to afford a HB ret squad. If you've got it for The Passion, i'm sure you can afford the extra 14% chance of not killing that additional .8 of a marine with the biggest squad.
Also, what's the gimmick on the imagifier again? Is it just 2+ rerollable Vessels? Might be worth the points to have a hospitaller and a 3+ reroll unless you're really spamming out Vessels.
Thanks.
Acts of Faith are very important if you want to be able to overcome your casualties. One of my 3 losses came because I could not get my Acts of Faith off on 3+ re-rollable (TWICE IN A ROW), which prompted me to make absolutely sure in the future. Lol. Many more of my wins i think I can safely say were heavily contributed to through the reliability of making sure that when I need the Emperors help, it's there.
One of the best things about the Vessel of the Emperor is that effects the Exorcists. As unreliable as they are, you really really need that to happen as well. Since I am totally without transports in this list, and I am GOING INTO the maw of madness with Bolter and my faith, I'd rather not just be going in with JUST my bolter.
That still doesn't really explain the 4 extra simulacrums. You're ebon chalice so the resurrection, morale, and Spellshield acts are 2+ rerollable anyway and the only reason you'd be using divine guidance without vessels is because you ran out of CP. Even then, the difference between passing and failing an AoF on a single unit is utterly negligible. I mean, a full 15 girl squad with triple melta is only 1.3 extra casualties against marines and 1.93 extra damage versus a rhino. Sure, it's a 20% boost but A. 20% of not a lot is still not a lot and B. You're only increasing your chance of successfully passing an AoF by 8.3%. So essentially you're paying 10pts for .16 extra damage against a rhino on average. A heavy bolter does double that at triple range and isn't even meant to target rhinos.
I can see the imagifier being important in this setup for guaranteeing a 2+ rerollable Divine Guidance but I can't see any reason for the extra 4 Simulacrum other than maybe if you really like the model.
You've already got your Vessels casts to 2+ rerollable without those 4 extra simulacrum, so that's taken care of. Failing individual unit casts of The Passion, Divine guidance, or hand of the emperor are utterly irrelevant except in certain very rare and specific fringe cases where you absolutely need the extra 3" of movement to hop onto an objective.
Finally, I'd like to conjecture that you're putting too much weight on failed AoFs influence on the outcome of your games. The bonuses the AoFs confer, even with Vessels, are ultimately fairly minor. Even Divine Guidance isn't a huge bonus. Your average Vessels cast will get you probably 6 extra damage from the exorcists and another 5-6 from everything else.
TL: DR, you run a poxwalker horde with just enough long range shooting to peel off units that might be able to clear off your poxwalkers. Spirit of the Martyr and Immune to morale are already at 2+ rerollable, none of the other acts matter, get more long range support.
Sidebar: My reading of it is also that making the Dialogus the General doesn't work. Admittedly just my opinion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/14 16:48:49
Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The dialogus wont benefit. Who cares.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The dialogus wont benefit. Who cares.
So, lets say I have a detachment of Sacred Rose and a detachment of Argent Shroud. I choose the Canoness in the Sacred Rose detachment as my warlord. The warlord trait effects all units with Order of the Sacred Rose, correct? It won't benefit my Argent Shroud Sisters in any way, correct?
If you name a character warlord that doesn't have the Order keyword, it doesn't suddenly get the Order keyword just because it is in charge, correct? So how do you think it would suddenly apply to units within an Order when the warlord doesn't have an Order? A warlord with the Order keyword doesn't effect units from a different Order, but because a Diologus doesn't have an Order she can now pass it off to units from one, two, or three different Orders depending on how many detachments you have?
I think you are way off on this one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/14 21:03:41
Jancoran wrote: Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The dialogus wont benefit. Who cares.
So, lets say I have a detachment of Sacred Rose and a detachment of Argent Shroud. I choose the Canoness in the Sacred Rose detachment as my warlord. The warlord trait effects all units with Order of the Sacred Rose, correct? It won't benefit my Argent Shroud Sisters in any way, correct?
If you name a character warlord that doesn't have the Order keyword, it doesn't suddenly get the Order keyword just because it is in charge, correct? So how do you think it would suddenly apply to units within an Order when the warlord doesn't have an Order? A warlord with the Order keyword doesn't effect units from a different Order, but because a Diologus doesn't have an Order she can now pass it off to units from one, two, or three different Orders depending on how many detachments you have?
I think you are way off on this one.
The way I see it, is that rules as written, right there, you don't get to substitute <order> for /anything/ unless it has the order keyword which triggers the whole thing, it says it right there, there is no main rulebook rule that says keywords in brackets are whatever you want them to be, under his interpretation, I could take an ebon rose canoness and then have her abilities effect bloody rose, or whatever I want, it is not willy nilly whatever you feel like doing..
Unless we are going to use the "Adeptus sororitas" keyword, and the first line to interpret that the model suddenly gets the order keyword because in a semi fluffy sentence it says all members have an order, and if we're doing that I guess we're running house rules, by his constant posting it sounds like he's playing ITC, which has a much more strict interpretation of the rules
The problem is not the trait says it effects X and you are X
The problem is the trait says it effects <order> and you are a <bloody rose>
<order> is not replaced with <bloody rose> unless the unit has the <order> keyword, and the dialogus does not
<order> does not mean "pick whatever you want"
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/15 00:35:56
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Jancoran wrote: Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The trait say you affect <Order> but your models aren't <Order>, they are <Ebon Chalice>!
Just think of it this way. You could have a detachment with both Ebon Chalice and Bloody Rose sisters. Sure, you would lose the faction bonuses, but it's still something you could do. If you put the trait on an Ebon Chalice Canoness from that mixed detachment, you get the bonus on Ebon Chalice models, and not on Bloody Rose model. If you put the trait on a Bloody Rose Canoness, you get it on Bloody Rose models and not on Ebon Chalice models. If you put it on the Dialogus though? How would it work, with your interpretation? Would it give the bonus to both Bloody Rose AND Ebon Chalice? Why?
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Jancoran wrote: Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The trait say you affect <Order> but your models aren't <Order>, they are <Ebon Chalice>!
Right, that is exactly the problem
<order> only becomes <ebon chalice> under stated circumstances, which the dialogus does not fulfill
if he can explain how "when you include such a unit in your army (a unit with the <order keyword> you must designate an order, replace the <order> keyword with the name of your chosen order" applies to a unit without the <order> keyword through some rule in the main book or something I'll accept it
maybe by "you're overthinking this" he means "I do what I want"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/15 15:44:57
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Yeah, the dialogous thing doesn't work that way, Jancoran.
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