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 Grundz wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

This response did not at all address what I said. This isn't complicated in the least. Even the FAQ tells you that you can take the relic on anyone, even a PRIEST if you wanted to. Anywho, Like I said, this is as fruitless as a deiscussion on alignment, and entirely academic in any case since I have an imagifier. But its just annoying so lets take it to a rules thread like they suggested. Its clearly not doing any good here.

No one said you cannot take the warlord trait or relic on any model, like you keep saying that we did, you keep going back to this, no one said you can't take it, just that it doesn't work if you do take it. I guess your tactic is just to keep repeating yourself about something no one said, until the argument goes away so you can keep cheating in ITC

no one is arguing that you cannot take a relic or warlord trait.
They are saying that you cannot change <order> in the relic or warlord trait to match your chosen order, because the unit lacks the <order> keyword. the order selection rule that lets you replace that <order> with whatever you chose, clearly states that the requirement is that the unit has the order keyword.

I don't know how to state this any clearer, again, no one is saying you can't take the relic or warlord trait, just that they, rules as written, cannot effect any model because the keyword on the relic or warlord trait cannot be changed to match your order, because, again, you cannot do that unless the model has the <order> keyword

Yet again, because of the above, the imigifier's warlord trait effects <order> models, all of the other models that started with <order> now have the <sacred rose> or <bloody rose> or whatever order they took, since the two don't match, you don't get to effect them.

Should I make a flow chart of why this doesn't work?

and I keep explaining to you that it is not an X Relic. It is a RELIC that only AFFECTS X. There is a difference you are refusing to understand. It is unlike most relics in that it does not ADFOPT any <order>. It just AFFECTS a certain order.

Please take it to YMDC

I got in a few casual games a few weeks ago.

The list:

1000 points sacred rose.

Canoness (WL with SoF bubble) Blade of Admonition, Combi-Plasma

Celestine

Mistress of Repentia (To carry the Brazier of Eternal Flame if I needed it, and be tougher than an Imagifer)

2x BSS (5) with three stormbolters
1 BSS (5) with two stormbolters and one heavy bolter

2x Seraphim (5) plasma pistol, 2x2 inferno pistols

Retributer Squad (10) 4x Multimeltas combi-flamer

2x Repressors with double stormbolters






Highlights of the game. The multi-melta rets did very well, even when moving, and without the +1 to hit (Which I never managed to roll while they were on foot.) Hitting on 5+ for overwatch did work. While not as dramatic as +1S/+1A, there were a few moments when it kept a repressor from getting swamped, stymied a character's charge, or wrecked a unit's day. I'm liking the Mistress of Repentia instead of the Imagifer as a secondary relic carrier. She outputs more in CC, but is cheaper, and with a 3++ is tougher than the Imagifer.

Her highlights include (and yes, there was a bit of luck involved), killing a wraith with a Krak grenade on overwatch, tanking the hits from his friend, and then killing him in melee. While luck played a big part in getting the two kills, it was less of a fluke in her taking no damage, thanks to her SoF.

Downsides.

Rolling for AoF on a d6 sucks. I think I made two of them (total), out of the eight I tried (In each game). None of them were ever big enough bonuses to consider using a CP on.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I got in a few casual games a few weeks ago.

Looks like a fun list, what format were you playing?

 Mmmpi wrote:
Rolling for AoF on a d6 sucks. I think I made two of them (total), out of the eight I tried (In each game). None of them were ever big enough bonuses to consider using a CP on.

I wish I could say that I have had a different experience in all of my 50+ games with the Betadex, sadly I cannot.

Just the maelstrom missions out of CA19.

 Jancoran wrote:


and I keep explaining to you that it is not an X Relic. It is a RELIC that only AFFECTS X. There is a difference you are refusing to understand. It is unlike most relics in that it does not ADFOPT any <order>. It just AFFECTS a certain order.

Here, did I miss anything?
For future posts about if you can take something or if it is affected, please consult this chart

 Grundz wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


and I keep explaining to you that it is not an X Relic. It is a RELIC that only AFFECTS X. There is a difference you are refusing to understand. It is unlike most relics in that it does not ADFOPT any <order>. It just AFFECTS a certain order.

Here, did I miss anything?
For future posts about if you can take something or if it is affected, please consult this chart

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778360.page

 ingtaer wrote:
If you wish to carry on that argument then please take it to YMDC rather than cluttering up this tactics thread.
Thanks,
ingtaer.

 Jancoran wrote:
This response did not at all address what I said. This isn't complicated in the least. Even the FAQ tells you that you can take the relic on anyone, even a PRIEST if you wanted to. Anywho, Like I said, this is as fruitless as a deiscussion on alignment, and entirely academic in any case since I have an imagifier. But its just annoying so lets take it to a rules thread like they suggested. Its clearly not doing any good here.

Jancoran, dude, please. Do you have any idea how much restrain it took me not to answer your silly argument after seeing the mod warning? Don't torture me like this, obey the mod instructions!

 Mmmpi wrote:


I got in a few casual games a few weeks ago.

Rolling for AoF on a d6 sucks. I think I made two of them (total), out of the eight I tried (In each game). None of them were ever big enough bonuses to consider using a CP on.

I dont bother with anything but Ebon Chalice. Acts of Faith are just too dang useful to leave to chance. In ITC format, being able to save two units a round from breaking makes a huge difference in points.

I find my units when shot at either lose one sister, or get wiped out.

My thoughts on the AoF are that if they were really that useful, I'd be more willing to use CP to reroll them, and therefore start taking stuff to boost the rolls so I don't burn all my rerolls on AoF.

That isn't happening, at least for me. They're strong enough to attempt each turn, but outside of the occasional bubbled fight again, not really worth basing a turn's strategy around.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I find my units when shot at either lose one sister, or get wiped out.

My thoughts on the AoF are that if they were really that useful, I'd be more willing to use CP to reroll them, and therefore start taking stuff to boost the rolls so I don't burn all my rerolls on AoF.

That isn't happening, at least for me. They're strong enough to attempt each turn, but outside of the occasional bubbled fight again, not really worth basing a turn's strategy around.

Whether your units are shot up or not isn't something I can speak to. But that isn't my experience, because I have larger units. I am often left with remnants and those in turn become points denied to the enemy... And that matters. The batreps I post periodically tell that tale.

Why would you need CP's to re-roll them (Dialogus saves a ton of CP and has no limit/turn)? In any event, the number one use for my Actso of Faith is +1 to shoot and auto-pass morale. I can't even count how many points I've stopped the enemy from getting points out of me in this way. "Kill more" is difficult for opponents in the early going and those aren't points they can ever get back. The simple act of Defiance in not deserting their sisters has a profound scoring effect!

I encourage you to try larger units. They have been exceedingly good for me, and they have made all the Acts of Faith more valuable as well. Controlling the board is easier, denying the enemy points is easier, killing the enemy is easier with more of them shooting with Vessel of the Emperor. Even with the Ebon Chalice and the Simulacrums I liberally distribute, you occassionally fail a key roll, even with the re-rolls I give them from the dialogi. One game in particular still stings. But one game is all I need remember, because the Acts went off reliably in almost all the others as often as was needed for victory!

Only one loss can be attributed to the failure of Acts of Faith in my current run. The other three were simply mismatches. Two of the losses were to the same guy, same army at top table. He simply character spammed behind a wall of 60 buffed nobodies and that is a very hard counter to me unless I bring my Seraphim in...and I forgot to bring in 250 points worth of Seraphim. So yeah. I more or less blew that, with good old fashioned brain farts, also having nothing to do with Acts, which allowed me even in that dunderheaded moment, to score 19 points in both those losses, so not too bad!

My point is... Consider it. Larger units and the Ebon Chalice = reliability!

I have used them in the past, but most of my games now are at the 1,000 point mark, and I really need the extra speed from vehicles to keep from getting kited and shot up by a fairly mobile marine player.

While +1 to hit is useful, it's not worth a CP reroll for me most of the time, particularly when I tend to use them for save rolls for my tanks.

There's also the issue of finding room for a dialogus, particularly at that points level, and simulacrums again are a huge chunk of my points.

I don't feel I've lost any games do to acts of faith, but aside from the game where I built to bubble/fight, I don't plan them to be a major aspect of my lists. The investment cost is too high for the gain. I end up spending points for things that I can't use regularly.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I have used them in the past, but most of my games now are at the 1,000 point mark, and I really need the extra speed from vehicles to keep from getting kited and shot up by a fairly mobile marine player.

While +1 to hit is useful, it's not worth a CP reroll for me most of the time, particularly when I tend to use them for save rolls for my tanks.

There's also the issue of finding room for a dialogus, particularly at that points level, and simulacrums again are a huge chunk of my points.

I don't feel I've lost any games do to acts of faith, but aside from the game where I built to bubble/fight, I don't plan them to be a major aspect of my lists. The investment cost is too high for the gain. I end up spending points for things that I can't use regularly.

at 1k, its not even a tournament level kind of thing, so I suppose a lot of whjat we say here won't apply to you. Makes sense now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
If you wish to carry on that argument then please take it to YMDC rather than cluttering up this tactics thread.
Thanks,
ingtaer.

 Jancoran wrote:
This response did not at all address what I said. This isn't complicated in the least. Even the FAQ tells you that you can take the relic on anyone, even a PRIEST if you wanted to. Anywho, Like I said, this is as fruitless as a deiscussion on alignment, and entirely academic in any case since I have an imagifier. But its just annoying so lets take it to a rules thread like they suggested. Its clearly not doing any good here.

Jancoran, dude, please. Do you have any idea how much restrain it took me not to answer your silly argument after seeing the mod warning? Don't torture me like this, obey the mod instructions!

Irony for 500, Alex.

Riddle me this: You take Ebon Chalice because you're biggest concern is morale and keeping units alive. Then why wouldn't you take Sacred Rose so you are guaranteed only losing 1 model?

Not to mention 5+ overwatch on the entire army is worth a lot more than +1 to shooting on 1 unit.

Also, I'm still very much in the camp that acts of faith in their current form could be removed from our army and I wouldn't notice the difference.

Not going to comment on his choice of subfaction, but that +5 on overwatch is pretty sweet.

 deviantduck wrote:

Also, I'm still very much in the camp that acts of faith in their current form could be removed from our army and I wouldn't notice the difference.

As they are currently, I feel the same way.

By the way re: Holy Trinity discussion earlier, I don't see often mentioned that RAW it works on the combi-plasma as well:

"add 1 to all wound rolls made for the firing unit until the end of the phase."

It probably goes against what I guess is the spirit of the rule (but who knows), so I give it a non-zero probability to be worded differently in the actual codex, or FAQ'd sometime afterwards, but in the meantime it can be an amusing trick for a dedicated squad.

Nostro wrote:
By the way re: Holy Trinity discussion earlier, I don't see often mentioned that RAW it works on the combi-plasma as well:

"add 1 to all wound rolls made for the firing unit until the end of the phase."

It probably goes against what I guess is the spirit of the rule (but who knows), so I give it a non-zero probability to be worded differently in the actual codex, or FAQ'd sometime afterwards, but in the meantime it can be an amusing trick for a dedicated squad.

Yes it works on /all/ weapons in that squad, you can totally have a plasma pistol in your seraphim squad and take advantage too. Its not nearly as powerful as overlapping fields of fire so I doubt it'll get faq'd to only effect trinity weapons, it is already a super bloated rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Not going to comment on his choice of subfaction, but that +5 on overwatch is pretty sweet.

when I step back from vehicle sisters I will probably run that faction, 4str/1a is nice but not really very necessary since you're usually falling back to shoot the survivors anyway.

It is really nice on evicerator canoness's but you can't replace keywords with whatever you like :p

I'm still a fan of the assault one. Not that it's the best one, but I find it fun and it opens up a lot of options for play.

 deviantduck wrote:
Riddle me this: You take Ebon Chalice because you're biggest concern is morale and keeping units alive. Then why wouldn't you take Sacred Rose so you are guaranteed only losing 1 model?

Not to mention 5+ overwatch on the entire army is worth a lot more than +1 to shooting on 1 unit.

Also, I'm still very much in the camp that acts of faith in their current form could be removed from our army and I wouldn't notice the difference.

Its not an invalid point at all. Here's some reasons.

1. There's nothing wrong with what you said per se. Losing one model would be cool. But suggesting that 71 bolter shots hitting on 2's isn't better than one parsed down unit getting overwatch on 5's is probably not better...not even close to better.

It may help to imagine the army Im playing. It is incredibly frequent that all the units in my army surge forward turn one, Advancing in fact almost all the time and only firing Meltas and only if something is there to hit. For the most part, this means that we are often charging turn 2 because the enemy will have been more than motivated to bring its many guns to bear on my veteran Guardsmen in Power armor (Sorry, Sisters of Battle) and not to mention their obvious martial superiority. Im simply inferior in every way to Primaris Marines/almost everything average and there is nowhere to hide from their range when they come forward (just an example, and yes...I know.... That isnt all I face).

I say all that to point out that the Overwatch issue wont come up much and it will usually just be one unit. Whereas I empower ALL my units, even ones in melee shooting pistols (aaaah, dont sleep on those when you have 14 Sisters or whatever in a unit) with the Vessel of the Emperor.

As for Acts of Faith going away and you not noticing: I don't even know what to say to that, other than: try it. Tell me if you notice. =)

 Jancoran wrote:
As for Acts of Faith going away and you not noticing: I don't even know what to say to that, other than: try it. Tell me if you notice. =)

I have tried it, 55+ games in which I burn through all of my faith points. On their own and especially when compared to other "Army Rules" they don't amount to much at all.

 dracpanzer wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
As for Acts of Faith going away and you not noticing: I don't even know what to say to that, other than: try it. Tell me if you notice. =)

I have tried it, 55+ games in which I burn through all of my faith points. On their own and especially when compared to other "Army Rules" they don't amount to much at all.

It's not about comparisons. It's about whether you're better with than without. You're saying you'd notice no difference but I think that's extreme hyperbole!

I for one love it. Celestine bounced like 8 Smite wounds off with her Psychic shielding when all his psyker characters tried to wax her with Psykeriness while she was caught up in melee. Took a grand total of 2 wounds out of it. Too good.

+1 to hit is well chronicled.

I also love rezzing. Assassins often will almost but not quite kill a character and the healing makes it so you can still use them in the next melee instead of shying away because they only have one wound left. And of course Celestine benefits greatly if you dont kill her (though I usually use it on the Canoness more often but still). And of course the extra 3" which suuuuuucks compared to what it used to be, is really quite good for getting Celestine into far more manageable charges and for taking objectives that would otherwise be out of reach. I used it in my last game to gte Green Squad close to an objective that a bunch of nurgle Daemons had tried to cluster on, outnumbering them while the Arco-Flagellents pounded away. Hooray, more points.

I detect some bitterness towards our rules and you're not wrong to feel that way a little bit. But I've played them since 4th Edition and no rules they have ever had seem to have stopped me from getting the wins that were there to be had. So chin up. Better times are coming. Or not. Either way I'll still be playing them.

 Jancoran wrote:
Irony for 500, Alex.

No I meant it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Irony for 500, Alex.

No I meant it.

Good?

 Jancoran wrote:
I detect some bitterness towards our rules and you're not wrong to feel that way a little bit. But I've played them since 4th Edition and no rules they have ever had seem to have stopped me from getting the wins that were there to be had. So chin up. Better times are coming. Or not. Either way I'll still be playing them.

I never said I can't win with Sisters in the Beta-dex, only that I rarely see any benefit at all from the AoF rules. It's not hyperbole, I am capable of actually observing what happens in my 40k games. Save the pep talk for someone who thinks you can run a 4++ army wide with Indomitable Belief on a warlord who doesn't have the <ORDER> keyword.

 dracpanzer wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I detect some bitterness towards our rules and you're not wrong to feel that way a little bit. But I've played them since 4th Edition and no rules they have ever had seem to have stopped me from getting the wins that were there to be had. So chin up. Better times are coming. Or not. Either way I'll still be playing them.

I never said I can't win with Sisters in the Beta-dex, only that I rarely see any benefit at all from the AoF rules. It's not hyperbole, I am capable of actually observing what happens in my 40k games. Save the pep talk for someone who thinks you can run a 4++ army wide with Indomitable Belief on a warlord who doesn't have the <ORDER> keyword.

No one ...said... ever... that you couldn't. So why are you acting as if someone did say that?

That aside, you said you wouldn't notice the difference. THAT is what you said. And it's hyperbole. You would. It's just that simple.

...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.









Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other news, I took my pure Sisters of Battle to a Major today. Took 12th out of 88. Not too shabby. Good enough for 66th overall in the ITC US West region (of about 1300 players in that region) once it is added to the standings. 4th worldwide as a Sisters of Battle player. Also cool.

 Jancoran wrote:


...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.

When did you change that? were you cheating then or now?

 Jancoran wrote:
No one ...said... ever... that you couldn't. So why are you acting as if someone did say that?

My apologies, your constant hammering on your whatever to whatever win ratio with your foot Sisters list compiled with your constant dismissal of anyone playing anything else certainly implies such. My frustration from the craptastic beta-dex isn't from losing games. It's from how awful the faction rules are. Pox-walker Sisters isn't a list I want to be forced in to playing, it's terribly boring to play. Everything based on a 3 toughness 4 wound warlord with a 5++ is incredibly easy to pick apart and defeat. Though not apparently in your "competitive" meta out west.

 Jancoran wrote:
That aside, you said you wouldn't notice the difference. THAT is what you said. And it's hyperbole. You would. It's just that simple.?

There are some AoF that do seem to work okay. IF you get them to go off. I would not handicap my army to make them easier to use, it isn't worth it to me, so I don't. I get more mileage out of faster moving units firing from vehicles that can withstand small arms far better than my Sisters do. If the girls get dumped from their vehicle they are going to die. So, no, bodies in vehicles and dead bodies outside of burned out vehicles doesn't amount to AoF contributing anything at all. Have you watched my games? I'll use your words "It's just that simple".

 Jancoran wrote:
...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.?

It's not academic at all, Indomitable Belief is an Order locked warlord trait. You have refused to see how you were wrong in your interpretation of that. You switching to an Imagifer from a Dialogus in your list might be conceding the issue, but it doesn't mean you still aren't trying to sell it or just save face.

 Jancoran wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Riddle me this: You take Ebon Chalice because you're biggest concern is morale and keeping units alive. Then why wouldn't you take Sacred Rose so you are guaranteed only losing 1 model?

Not to mention 5+ overwatch on the entire army is worth a lot more than +1 to shooting on 1 unit.

Also, I'm still very much in the camp that acts of faith in their current form could be removed from our army and I wouldn't notice the difference.

Its not an invalid point at all. Here's some reasons.

1. There's nothing wrong with what you said per se. Losing one model would be cool. But suggesting that 71 bolter shots hitting on 2's isn't better than one parsed down unit getting overwatch on 5's is probably not better...not even close to better.

It may help to imagine the army Im playing. It is incredibly frequent that all the units in my army surge forward turn one, Advancing in fact almost all the time and only firing Meltas and only if something is there to hit. For the most part, this means that we are often charging turn 2 because the enemy will have been more than motivated to bring its many guns to bear on my veteran Guardsmen in Power armor (Sorry, Sisters of Battle) and not to mention their obvious martial superiority. Im simply inferior in every way to Primaris Marines/almost everything average and there is nowhere to hide from their range when they come forward (just an example, and yes...I know.... That isnt all I face).

I say all that to point out that the Overwatch issue wont come up much and it will usually just be one unit. Whereas I empower ALL my units, even ones in melee shooting pistols (aaaah, dont sleep on those when you have 14 Sisters or whatever in a unit) with the Vessel of the Emperor.

As for Acts of Faith going away and you not noticing: I don't even know what to say to that, other than: try it. Tell me if you notice. =)

It's a guaranteed +1 to hit for my entire army vs a chance to +1 to hit for 1 unit (multiple units if arranged properly and you pay 3 CP)
Over the course of a typical game I fire more defensive overwatch from my entire army than I would fire offenseive AoF shots from one or more select units, even if you assume the AoF will go off.
Combine the auto morale via 1 loss and I get way more out of that Order ability than +1 to AoF.

In regard to the acts of faith themselves, they are pretty terrible compared to other armies special rules/chapter tactics and I hope the community feedback has inspired a complete reworking of them for the codex. I'm not sure why you're telling me or dracpanzer to try them. Everyone has tried them. They are lackluster and irrelevant. The only AoF that has ever impacted any of my games in any meaningful way would be the fight twice AoF, which makes sense since its the hardest one to go off. However, it's so niche and infrequent you certainly can't plan your strategy around it.

I agree about overwatch. For me, one unit every other turn gets +1 to hit, and it's not that good that I really want to vessels for it.

But multiple units overwatch many turns in a row for me, and a 100% increase in hits from inferno pistols and krak grenades are pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know GW said they were doing a full rewrite on AoF, which means it will either be stupidly broken, or stupidly sucktastic. Seeing as it's already sucktastic, we might as well hope.