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As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.

Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.

I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.

Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.

IanVanCheese wrote:
As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.

Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.

I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.

Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.

Whether or not it should have been as powerful as it is, IH, ravenguard, IF, and to a lesser extent WS are all still out there in the wild and until nerfs come in for them and flyer spam lists, those will be the benchmarks by which an army's strength is determined.

We may not like it but that doesn't change the fact of it.

ERJAK wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.

Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.

I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.

Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.

Whether or not it should have been as powerful as it is, IH, ravenguard, IF, and to a lesser extent WS are all still out there in the wild and until nerfs come in for them and flyer spam lists, those will be the benchmarks by which an army's strength is determined.

We may not like it but that doesn't change the fact of it.

Maybe, but I'd rather see them get nerfed than us also get a stupid OP book. I think flyer spam is going to get swatted away fairly sharpish. I think some version of boots on the ground is coming back. If all you have left is flyers, they're removed from play. I'd also make it so flyers can never get cover, even from stealthy. That knocks the IH successor flyers down a peg. Hnestly, I think marines just need some points hikes. At the moment they get too many dudes for their points. They should be as killy as they are, just not as numerous.

Anyway, lets get a few games under our belts before we decry the book as trash is all I'm saying. People though White Scars/Raven Guard books sucked when it first came out, it took a little while for people to see the combos.

Ian and Erjak, out of self-interested curiosity, what changed people's minds about White Scars? Limited characters on bikes is a hassle I know, and I've only played them a couple of times, but what did people find that unlocked something potent? I had them filed under "good-but-not-great."

On topic, yeah, I hope they eat their humble pie and restore Dominion Vanguard to Dedicated Transports... in my head that was almost a universal rule that any transport with embarked special rules just got. I don't need (or want) mech-melta to be our bread and butter, but I'd like it to remain an option among several good ones. If I had to bet, I'd say they'll FAQ it back into play, but I know better than to get my hopes up.

 MacPhail wrote:
Ian and Erjak, out of self-interested curiosity, what changed people's minds about White Scars? Limited characters on bikes is a hassle I know, and I've only played them a couple of times, but what did people find that unlocked something potent? I had them filed under "good-but-not-great."

On topic, yeah, I hope they eat their humble pie and restore Dominion Vanguard to Dedicated Transports... in my head that was almost a universal rule that any transport with embarked special rules just got. I don't need (or want) mech-melta to be our bread and butter, but I'd like it to remain an option among several good ones. If I had to bet, I'd say they'll FAQ it back into play, but I know better than to get my hopes up.

Assault Centurions. It just took awhile for them to gain prevalence. We first saw it with Ravengaurd and then people realized that keeping them off the board and forcing your opponent away from the edges was better and more reliable than a possible t1 alpha strike.

I think we are all hoping Sisters have something like Assault Centurions. Right now it seems like it might be a Penitent Engine, but they cost most more, have a worse save, and only one more wound. They also have no deployment shenanigans.

IanVanCheese wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.

Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.

I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.

Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.

Whether or not it should have been as powerful as it is, IH, ravenguard, IF, and to a lesser extent WS are all still out there in the wild and until nerfs come in for them and flyer spam lists, those will be the benchmarks by which an army's strength is determined.

We may not like it but that doesn't change the fact of it.

Maybe, but I'd rather see them get nerfed than us also get a stupid OP book. I think flyer spam is going to get swatted away fairly sharpish. I think some version of boots on the ground is coming back. If all you have left is flyers, they're removed from play. I'd also make it so flyers can never get cover, even from stealthy. That knocks the IH successor flyers down a peg. Hnestly, I think marines just need some points hikes. At the moment they get too many dudes for their points. They should be as killy as they are, just not as numerous.

Anyway, lets get a few games under our belts before we decry the book as trash is all I'm saying. People though White Scars/Raven Guard books sucked when it first came out, it took a little while for people to see the combos.

Technically, people didn't think ravenguard as a whole sucked, just their super doctrine, which was correct, but i digress.

In all likelyhood any incoming nerfs will be fairly gentle followed by a series of book updates that push most books to plus or minus 10% of where marines are post nerf. I don't expect to see flyer spam swatted because it's been kicking since the literal first day of 8th and hasn't gone anywhere. (sidebar: Of all the issues flyers have, still getting cover is far and away the least pressing. That whole -3 to hit thing seems like a much bigger deal.)

Even if you hit those, you still have Chaos mortal wound spam, Dronemander, all the crazy stuff GSC does, apparently some new insane Alpha Legion thing from PA2, etc. It's just wack-a-mole and there's way too many moles between us and the best books at the moment for them going down to be enough. We also need to go up.

It doesn't have to be a whole rewrite of the book (although I would certainly prefer one). Some simple point changes could easily carry us through the rest of the edition. Both Exorcists down 20pts, Zephyrim down to 13 after their swords, battle sisters down to 8 a piece to make up for no more sergeants stormbolters, Dominions get Vanguard back, immolators down 15, Multimeltas down to 18, Celestine down 20, Folly of Saint Katherine down to 80(hyperbole but I HATE this unit.), Heavy flamers down to 12, Rets back to 9, Geminae superia removed from the game, characters down 5 points each, make the first battle sanctum free and slot into a battalion. Put bloody rose back to +1S instead of the stupid AP thing.

Yaknow, this thread depresses me.

How can people be SUCH pushovers to declare the codex too weak before it even being released and getting their hands on it to try things out is beyond me.
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.

ESPECIALLY given the sisters have a far higher than usual skill ceiling between miracle dice and the fact you choose an army-wide sacred rite after seeing exactly what you are up against, letting you adjust on the fly.


I mean, how can I take ANYTHING said by ERJAK here (taken as an example) as anything else than spewing bile when he said things like "I wouldn't take them if they were FREE."
I mean, at this point it's negativity for negativity's sake, rather than posting anything of value.

How are you being a "pushover" when you recognize weak rules after reading them?

The youtube guys flipped through page by page, that's what's letting us pour over the book and listbuild, we're doing it right now and it's looking a bit grim.

The fundamental Sisters problem is we're an 8-12 inch shooting army with no movement tools. In the Beta Codex we had a few crutches to overcome this, transports worked for us because of:
- Free 12 inch move before the battle
- 4++ transports are the best transports
- the Repressor is the best rhino chasis vehicle in the game
- sometimes you could add +3" to your movement with the Act of Faith and maybe even Vessels

Now there is no more scout move, no more vehicle invuln and we all know that FW Index nonsense for a long out of production model will be removed sooner or later.

Nothing new was added to help this problem. It's natural to be disappointed.

Can blobs of 3+ 4++ 6+++ Horde Sisters who ignore AP -1 and -2 slowly walking up the board be useful? We'll find out, but it's not really the style I find appealing.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, this thread depresses me.

How can people be SUCH pushovers to declare the codex too weak before it even being released and getting their hands on it to try things out is beyond me.
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.

ESPECIALLY given the sisters have a far higher than usual skill ceiling between miracle dice and the fact you choose an army-wide sacred rite after seeing exactly what you are up against, letting you adjust on the fly.


I mean, how can I take ANYTHING said by ERJAK here (taken as an example) as anything else than spewing bile when he said things like "I wouldn't take them if they were FREE."
I mean, at this point it's negativity for negativity's sake, rather than posting anything of value.

Amen. Sing it from the mountaintop, brother.

Defeatism is not an argument. Just isn't. I am not jazzed about everything but we WILL find the good stuff they have planned. Some stuff is going to be fun to try. I never played the Codex for some perceived advantage and I'll wager most didn't. So nothing has changed for us, but I have a feeling we are going to be so much more competitive than we have been with this. I'm REALLY okay with that outcome.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, this thread depresses me.

How can people be SUCH pushovers to declare the codex too weak before it even being released and getting their hands on it to try things out is beyond me.
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.

ESPECIALLY given the sisters have a far higher than usual skill ceiling between miracle dice and the fact you choose an army-wide sacred rite after seeing exactly what you are up against, letting you adjust on the fly.


I mean, how can I take ANYTHING said by ERJAK here (taken as an example) as anything else than spewing bile when he said things like "I wouldn't take them if they were FREE."
I mean, at this point it's negativity for negativity's sake, rather than posting anything of value.

Have you been on Dakka long? Negativity and hyperbole is overwhelmingly the norm here, all units are to be assessed in a vacum and only compared to units that fill a similar role in what people consider the highest tier of play. If an exorcist can't 1v1 a IH Leviathan on planet bowling ball then its trash.

Personally I like how the new codex looks. It reminds me of the 8th Ed nids codex before power creep made it slightly worse (i.e good but not OP, which is where it should be) but with better internal balance because there are less units. The only unit I can't see the good of is Celestians and I don't think I'll ever take a hospitalier because bringing back models will never be as good as GW thinks it is (unless it can restore wounds on ToSK). There's obviously going to be a lot of aura shenanigans due to the Imagifier, Diologus, Priests and such. I don't think many other armies have as many different aura shenanigans going on all at once so it'll be interesting to see how they all interact.

Even the Celestians have some use; rerolls are always handy, especially combined with high-value weapons like meltas or low-accuracy shots like Overwatch.

Sacred Rose Celestians could reroll the 5+ OW, which is a 55% chance to hit.

Ebon Chalice Celestians can save their Bodyguard wounds on a 5+. Technically so can Argent Shroud, but they'd need to use a strategem.

Small margins, sure, but worth bearing in mind.

I really like the -1AP on Bloody Rose over the +1S, particularly as it applies to pistols too. I won't bore you with the maths, but unless a) that +1S was the difference between 5s and 6s to wound or b) your target had 5+ or worse save anyway, the -1AP is usually better

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.

On that subject, has anyone had a chance to play a game or two yet now that we have all of the rules and points costs ?

A.T. wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.

On that subject, has anyone had a chance to play a game or two yet now that we have all of the rules and points costs ?

Has anyone compiled a legible series of screenshots of all the rules yet?

 Sim-Life wrote:
Has anyone compiled a legible series of screenshots of all the rules yet?

I don't know about screenshots but the youtube videos cover everything - GMG in particular reads everything out start to end and the text is reasonably legible for the purposes of noting down differences between the new and beta dex.

ERJAK wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.

Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.

I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.

Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.

Whether or not it should have been as powerful as it is, IH, ravenguard, IF, and to a lesser extent WS are all still out there in the wild and until nerfs come in for them and flyer spam lists, those will be the benchmarks by which an army's strength is determined.

We may not like it but that doesn't change the fact of it.

Maybe, but I'd rather see them get nerfed than us also get a stupid OP book. I think flyer spam is going to get swatted away fairly sharpish. I think some version of boots on the ground is coming back. If all you have left is flyers, they're removed from play. I'd also make it so flyers can never get cover, even from stealthy. That knocks the IH successor flyers down a peg. Hnestly, I think marines just need some points hikes. At the moment they get too many dudes for their points. They should be as killy as they are, just not as numerous.

Anyway, lets get a few games under our belts before we decry the book as trash is all I'm saying. People though White Scars/Raven Guard books sucked when it first came out, it took a little while for people to see the combos.

Technically, people didn't think ravenguard as a whole sucked, just their super doctrine, which was correct, but i digress.

In all likelyhood any incoming nerfs will be fairly gentle followed by a series of book updates that push most books to plus or minus 10% of where marines are post nerf. I don't expect to see flyer spam swatted because it's been kicking since the literal first day of 8th and hasn't gone anywhere. (sidebar: Of all the issues flyers have, still getting cover is far and away the least pressing. That whole -3 to hit thing seems like a much bigger deal.)

Even if you hit those, you still have Chaos mortal wound spam, Dronemander, all the crazy stuff GSC does, apparently some new insane Alpha Legion thing from PA2, etc. It's just wack-a-mole and there's way too many moles between us and the best books at the moment for them going down to be enough. We also need to go up.

It doesn't have to be a whole rewrite of the book (although I would certainly prefer one). Some simple point changes could easily carry us through the rest of the edition. Both Exorcists down 20pts, Zephyrim down to 13 after their swords, battle sisters down to 8 a piece to make up for no more sergeants stormbolters, Dominions get Vanguard back, immolators down 15, Multimeltas down to 18, Celestine down 20, Folly of Saint Katherine down to 80(hyperbole but I HATE this unit.), Heavy flamers down to 12, Rets back to 9, Geminae superia removed from the game, characters down 5 points each, make the first battle sanctum free and slot into a battalion. Put bloody rose back to +1S instead of the stupid AP thing.

True, but I think Sisters have good answers to a lot of those lists you mentioned. MW spam can be countered by our +3 deny Sacred Rite + Null rods, etc. Ignoring -2AP basically nullifies Tau outside of a couple of units that we rarely see so Valorous Heart are amazing there (see also most marine lists). We have 12" flamers for days to run GSC's day. I think we have a lot of tools. We just need to see how everything works together. Agree on some of the points drops, but GW basically never nails pts on the first go (or any go tbh) and it's not horrendous.

"no movement tools" (except all the ones we have, like advance and charge stratagem, fantastic jump pack units, Argent-Shroud penaltyless advance, +1" to Run and Charge rite)

The problem is all these help boots more than tracks. I personally am excited for the dex, because 115 foot Sororitas models benefit hugely. It was only really the transports and tanks that got hit with a truck.

ERJAK wrote:

I mean, penitent engines and mortifiers are just worse assault centurions for 14pts+ more than assault centurions, and they're the best we got.

Could you compare the two units's movement speed for me?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, this thread depresses me.

How can people be SUCH pushovers to declare the codex too weak before it even being released and getting their hands on it to try things out is beyond me.
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.

ESPECIALLY given the sisters have a far higher than usual skill ceiling between miracle dice and the fact you choose an army-wide sacred rite after seeing exactly what you are up against, letting you adjust on the fly.


I mean, how can I take ANYTHING said by ERJAK here (taken as an example) as anything else than spewing bile when he said things like "I wouldn't take them if they were FREE."
I mean, at this point it's negativity for negativity's sake, rather than posting anything of value.

Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.

Also, haven't you heard? With the mindless drivel that is ITC missions, list building and match ups are a vast majority of the competitive game these days. As such, matches are no longer actually played. Folks just sit around and compare lists, cite limited and woefully inadequate maths to model outcomes in a vacuum, and value only the latest tournament winnings to assess the value of a particular unit or faction.

Welcome to competitive Warhammer 40k. It's more grim and dark than the source material.

Lemondish wrote:
Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.

You are in the wrong thread. Anyone looking for a win on a silver platter hasn't been playing sisters these past few editions.

Lemondish wrote:

Also, haven't you heard? With the mindless drivel that is ITC missions, list building and match ups are a vast majority of the competitive game these days. As such, matches are no longer actually played. Folks just sit around and compare lists, cite limited and woefully inadequate maths to model outcomes in a vacuum, and value only the latest tournament winnings to assess the value of a particular unit or faction.

Welcome to competitive Warhammer 40k. It's more grim and dark than the source material.

Its also largely luck, because ITC pushes you really hard to table your opponent as fast as possible to score max points and reach the final tables, facing something like a valorous heart horde list pretty much denies you the possibility of winning.

 Grundz wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Also, haven't you heard? With the mindless drivel that is ITC missions, list building and match ups are a vast majority of the competitive game these days. As such, matches are no longer actually played. Folks just sit around and compare lists, cite limited and woefully inadequate maths to model outcomes in a vacuum, and value only the latest tournament winnings to assess the value of a particular unit or faction.

Welcome to competitive Warhammer 40k. It's more grim and dark than the source material.

Its also largely luck, because ITC pushes you really hard to table your opponent as fast as possible to score max points and reach the final tables, facing something like a valorous heart horde list pretty much denies you the possibility of winning.

Yeah, not to get off topic but ITC blows. All the missions are won the same way, so there's no variety in lists. A spread of missions that varied between objectives, killing, taking ground etc would promote more well-rounded lists rather than the single minded spam we're currently seeing. ITC, and Frontline's influence over how the game is played in general, have been bad for the game. No disrespect to the team and the work they've done in organizing 40k on a grand scale when GW was doing nothing, but they need to step back from trying to be game designers.

Anyway, what's on people's purchase lists when the full release drops? My mind is spinning with options (and my wallet is crying holy tears).

I think its feasable that the more bellyaching people in this thread are probably playing ITC type rules where just holding ground and winning objectives isn't enough, which is the source of their woes.

I'm working on some 3d stuff to help ease my wallet woes so I can still play while slowly buying in

Lemondish wrote:

Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.

Wow, you should probably know your audience before throwing stuff like this around.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.

Wow, you should probably know your audience before throwing stuff like this around.

Only the best of the best I'm sure

A.T. wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.

You are in the wrong thread. Anyone looking for a win on a silver platter hasn't been playing sisters these past few editions.

Some people were obviously expecting the new codex to usher in an era of OP Sisters though. I mean I was kind of expecting them to be more OP than they are given how much hype GW has given them, but I'm glad they merely seem Good But Not OP because it means my garagehammer buds won't hate playing against them. The GSC guy might though.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Some people were obviously expecting the new codex to usher in an era of OP Sisters though. I mean I was kind of expecting them to be more OP than they are given how much hype GW has given them

I think there was certainly some expection of them being better at first glance.

The betadex ended its life as the faction that went 109th and 221st out of 221 players in tournament play, overshadowed in the rankings by more powerful factions like grey knights and necrons despite stacking every available rule and using unintended index-unit abuse to multiply the power of its faith abilities several times over

But the first impression the nuSisters brings is that almost everything that made that tournament list work, and everything identified as 'good' in the betadex from scouting repressors down to little things like stormbolters on squad vets is gone. And there is obviously going to be disappointment that a low-hanging fruit like the jump canoness or improved celestians didn't make it.


So now it's on to the big question of what is good, if what was good isn't anymore. Miracle dice in particular are so circumstancial that it's impossible to properly judge them outside of actually playing games.

A.T. wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Some people were obviously expecting the new codex to usher in an era of OP Sisters though. I mean I was kind of expecting them to be more OP than they are given how much hype GW has given them

I think there was certainly some expection of them being better at first glance.

The betadex ended its life as the faction that went 109th and 221st out of 221 players in tournament play, overshadowed in the rankings by more powerful factions like grey knights and necrons despite stacking every available rule and using unintended index-unit abuse to multiply the power of its faith abilities several times over

But the first impression the nuSisters brings is that almost everything that made that tournament list work, and everything identified as 'good' in the betadex from scouting repressors down to little things like stormbolters on squad vets is gone. And there is obviously going to be disappointment that a low-hanging fruit like the jump canoness or improved celestians didn't make it.


So now it's on to the big question of what is good, if what was good isn't anymore. Miracle dice in particular are so circumstancial that it's impossible to properly judge them outside of actually playing games.

Good points here, especially on Miracle Dice. I need to see them in action, but at the end of the day, 40K is a dice game and being able to take that aspect out of important plays is potentially huge. How it translates is another thing.

Lanlaorn wrote:
Can blobs of 3+ 4++ 6+++ Horde Sisters who ignore AP -1 and -2 slowly walking up the board be useful? We'll find out, but it's not really the style I find appealing.

This x 100. I love mech sisters. I don't want blobs and blobs of models spread out dying slower than the enemy. I don't care if it wins at top tables. That's not how I want to have fun playing this game.

Without playing any games I feel like the only build right now thats viable is a horde of foot sisters. I took that to LVO last year and it didn't go great.

The main difference now is though I can take 60x Seraphim instead of only 30 and I don't see myself taking Exorcists. 3+, 4++, 6++ ignoring ap2 is really strong although boring to play.

 deviantduck wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
Can blobs of 3+ 4++ 6+++ Horde Sisters who ignore AP -1 and -2 slowly walking up the board be useful? We'll find out, but it's not really the style I find appealing.

This x 100. I love mech sisters. I don't want blobs and blobs of models spread out dying slower than the enemy. I don't care if it wins at top tables. That's not how I want to have fun playing this game.

To be fair, your mech can also shrug -2. That's a huge part of most armies' anti-tank neutered. I think we're calling time of death on mech a bit early. Also acts of faith to just auto 6 that inv save when something scary does get through.

Immolators lost their free move, but they can still turbo up the board and roast some fools turn 1, plus now they're a bit tougher. I think threat saturation will keep them alive longer too. Between them, Exorcists, Moftifiers etc, your opponent will run out of gun before you run out of stuff.