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I plan to be speedy. Here's my thoughts with sisters:

1) Foot is better than mech, period.
2) Miracle Dice are unreliable and things that build around them will make them reliable, but are very niche builds that suffer elsewhere.
3) Miracle Dice are a "nice-to-have" but shouldn't be relied upon.
4) Other army special rules (e.g. Rites of Battle, the Convictions, etc) means that not really using the Miracle Dice mechanic isn't sacrificing too much.
5) Neither celestine nor any other special character are mandatory anymore.

So what I forsee for my sisters are:
adequate mobility:
- everyone can advance with +1" and still shoot as if they hadn't advanced (argent shroud)

very high firepower:
- My guns do not require transports, meaning I can afford more raw gun.
- good stratagems to buff shooting to high heaven
- plentiful access to re-rolls to-hit from cheap characters

high durability:
- power armor is fine, 5++ is a sufficiently good invuln (celestine/canoness with 2nd trait)
- melee options are strong enough to be efficient counter-chargers but can't really go it alone unless Bloody Rose
- durability relics are great (Canoness only wounded on a 4+ or better, 2+ save seems amazing for a melee counterpunch)

mediocre melee:
- Bloody Rose is an exception to this (but they lose mobility)
- other Sororitas orders have melee units that are "good" but not game winners alone
- this means, however, they can still defend themselves rather well if countercharge units are adequately protected in little pockets.

This leads to the following considerations:
Mobility:
- numbers will be huge for board control - use the cheapness of the army without transports to spam meltaguns (and especially multimeltas) everywhere, since our anti-tank is too slow to be truly precision. It is, at least, sufficiently fast to be in range.

Firepower:
- Lots and lots and lots of gun. Always take a gun upgrade on a girl who can hold one.
- Needs to be plentiful at it's task - there is never "sufficient" because we don't have the range to allow mutually supporting units, even with our mobility buffs.

Durability:
- pockets of higher durability are necessary, whether this is +1 invuln from the secondary WT or ignoring rend from Imagifier. Valorous heart is probably overkill unless you plan to be static. This can also happen with stratagems (e.g. argent shroud 5++) on crucial units.
- your big guns need bodies to protect them; I forsee 4 multi-melta / 1 combiflamer / 5 bolter Retributor squads hoofing it up the field, using the bolters to soak damage and a Hospitaller to bring back any meltas that are lost.
- I expect there to be a pile of dead Sororitas at the end of the battle, but the core of the army (the high-firepower models) should remain intact.

Melee:
- The sororitas firepower is staggering at short range, but falls off dramatically with distance. This means that melee armies will have to endure the teeth of our firepower to close, unless they themselves are able to charge from outside 18" ish.
- that point means that our melee units are, in my opinion, best reserved as a counterstroke, finishing off damaged enemy units that make it among the front line of battle sisters. Such units will have suffered badly at the hands of our short-range power, and our melee units are sufficiently powerful to do that sort of mop-up operation.
- Zephrym are especially good at this, benefitting very much from being hidden amongst your army and then having a very wide "interdiction zone" where they can countercharge.

The biggest hurdle I forsee is dealing with armies that sit back and blast you, i.e. Imperial Guard. I haven't devised a good solution to them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I plan to be speedy. Here's my thoughts with sisters:

1) Foot is better than mech, period.
2) Miracle Dice are unreliable and things that build around them will make them reliable, but are very niche builds that suffer elsewhere.
3) Miracle Dice are a "nice-to-have" but shouldn't be relied upon.
4) Other army special rules (e.g. Rites of Battle, the Convictions, etc) means that not really using the Miracle Dice mechanic isn't sacrificing too much.
5) Neither celestine nor any other special character are mandatory anymore.

So what I forsee for my sisters are:
adequate mobility:
- everyone can advance with +1" and still shoot as if they hadn't advanced (argent shroud).

I need to have the book before I can make the decision for sure, but I am considering two battalions, one argent shroud and one valorous heart or bloody rose.
I dont necessarly need every single body to arrive at max speed, bloody rose seraphim and canoness with relic pistol are attractive as are counter charging sisters.
valorous heart in cover ignoring -2ap are basically the hardest to remove models per point in the game, rets, exorcists, ect. sitting in the back and holding are straight not worth shooting at.

I plan to be stabby

Miracle dice are a nice mechanic because they're one that adds control and consistency rather than does something powerful sometimes randomly. However, I don't think they're powerful enough to make a difference, since locking in one damage roll isn't going to wreck a tank or allow me to do things I wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I don't intend to build into them heavily, but I'll have them available.
I'm also not sold on whether the sacred rites is going to outweigh the loss of Imperial Guard long-range support fire, especially with Exorcists going up in cost and no real support for vehicles from most of the doctrines. We'll have to see though, because we can dole out more than three relics it looks like, and both Death to the False Everything and +3 to deny the witch sounds pretty nice.

First shot, I'm going to try for mono using the sacred rites of the bat, probably picking Death to the False Everything by default unless I feel like I'm going to need the denials.
Therefore, I'm going to need to have Exorcists in my army, which is going to hurt how much more I'm paying for them [and that they lost a point of AP :(. I was really happy with them as they were. Now, rather than comparing with a Vindicator as a sidegrade, they compare unfavorably with a Leman Russ Demolisher]. The Exorcists and their babysitters will be Valorous Heart. None of the other orders offer any benefit to them, and ignoring AP-2 and a 6+++ could be worse. That said, most AT is AP-3 or higher, so if I wind up not being able to compartmentalize they'll be fine in the regular group.

I'm questioning the viability of mechanized Dominions right now, what with Infiltrators, Incursors, and Invictors being out there to stop them from moving, so they might get the axe entirely in favor of meltapistol Seraphim under Order of the Argent Shroud or Zephyrim under Order of the Bloody Rose, leaning towards the former. Of note, though, is that neither Argent Shroud Doms or Argent Shroud Seraphim are fast enough to bring any meltaguns into range from being locked into the deployment zone on turn 1, so the answer might be "Neither: Valorous Heart Retributors" and just cough up the extra points.

I intend to have several Rhinos loaded with Bloody Rose Repentia and their babysitters: a Priest and an Imagifier for +1A and +1S. The Imagifier will probably get the trait to hand out the +1 Shield of Faith, and if Celestine goes with, then that brings them up to 4++ and their armored carriers to 5++. Chainsaw Canoness will be wielding the Bloody Rose Relic Chainsaw and have the other warlord trait for Righteous Rage and will probably be hitching a ride in one of the transports to get the enemy. With 4++/5+++ going in with A4, S8, AP-3, D2, should be pretty devastating, especially with Death to the False Everything and stratagem support to help them wreck Knights and cut through Intercessors, Infiltrators, Invictors, Aggressors, and Centurions like a hot knife. The armored transports and Miracle Dice will protect me from the Raven Guard at least until I've done my job.

I really like the idea of using Valorous Heart for the bulk of my army, to tell Intercessors exactly where they can shove their bolt rifles. Stalker Rifle carriers will be tough since I'll be relying on overlapping character support and they do a lot of damage with a lot of shots and can pick out characters. Fortunately, they can be targeted directly, so they'll be finding themselves under the ire of everything that can reach them

One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.



This is why I really don't think being mono for sacred rites is worth not being able to have Imperial Guard in the army. I lose the ability to have three orders and to have Death to the False Everything, but I do gain "Suppression Fire" to neuter Assault Centurions and Aggressors, cheap CP, and the ability to reach out and touch someone if I need to.

A viable consideration might be allying in Space Marines for Thunderfire Guns, Scouts, Invictors, Infiltrators, and Incursors. Thunderfire Guns can shut off overwatch with stratagem and do it to two units, to pave the way for the Repentia to begin their assault against units that have lots of flamethrowers. That said, since the enemy will still have CP when I commence my assaults, I won't really be locking out more than one unit since I don't want to give interrupt opportunities to Assault Centurions or Aggressors.


I really want to shoot for Brigade+Battalion or Brigade+2 Battalions, but I don't think that's going to be in the cards with the increase in cost of Exorcists and the pretty heavy demand for Imagifiers and existing high cost of units.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I'm questioning the viability of mechanized Dominions right now, what with Infiltrators, Incursors, and Invictors being out there to stop them from moving, so they might get the axe entirely in favor of meltapistol Seraphim under Order of the Argent Shroud or Zephyrim under Order of the Bloody Rose, leaning towards the former. Of note, though, is that neither Argent Shroud Doms or Argent Shroud Seraphim are fast enough to bring any meltaguns into range from being locked into the deployment zone on turn 1, so the answer might be "Neither: Valorous Heart Retributors" and just cough up the extra points.

Not to nitpick, but there's a lot of discrete ideas here and this is the only one I have a strong opinion on:

Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.

For later in the battle, or if the enemy is closing with you (e.g. daemon engines) you can put a combiflamer on the sergeant to trigger Holy Trinity, if you feel its necessary (though this can obviously be done with Doms too).

EDIT:
For reference, with a 6 on the advance (and the correct Rite), your multi-meltas can shoot 6 times, each shot doing an average of 4.5 damage if it gets through, out to 49" away from their start point on Turn 1.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.

Valorous heart is sacrificing that extra D6 range in exchange for needing less ablative bodies to offset the cost of the meltas

I think the better buy, though less CP, is spreading multimeltas into multiple ret squads, gives you more cherubs to sac for extra melta shots and ablative bodies in exchange for less cp efficiency

 Grundz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.

Valorous heart is sacrificing that extra D6 range in exchange for needing less ablative bodies to offset the cost of the meltas

I think the better buy, though less CP, is spreading multimeltas into multiple ret squads, gives you more cherubs to sac for extra melta shots and ablative bodies in exchange for less cp efficiency

Oh, I assumed you'd take several such squads, all with multimelta. My brigade is looking at 2x multimelta, 1x heavy flamer rets among the horde

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I'm questioning the viability of mechanized Dominions right now, what with Infiltrators, Incursors, and Invictors being out there to stop them from moving, so they might get the axe entirely in favor of meltapistol Seraphim under Order of the Argent Shroud or Zephyrim under Order of the Bloody Rose, leaning towards the former. Of note, though, is that neither Argent Shroud Doms or Argent Shroud Seraphim are fast enough to bring any meltaguns into range from being locked into the deployment zone on turn 1, so the answer might be "Neither: Valorous Heart Retributors" and just cough up the extra points.

Not to nitpick, but there's a lot of discrete ideas here and this is the only one I have a strong opinion on:

Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.

For later in the battle, or if the enemy is closing with you (e.g. daemon engines) you can put a combiflamer on the sergeant to trigger Holy Trinity, if you feel its necessary (though this can obviously be done with Doms too).

I think that 24"/36" is enough range with 6" of movement to reach their targets, and that getting to ignore Bolt Rifles and having a 6+++ outweighs the extra movement, particularly because they'll probably find a nice tower to climb up and shoot from there.
The +12" range stratagem is enough range such that if I have a front line tower, I can stand up there and just fire into their lines with a 2+ save that requires AP-3 to even do anything about.

Multimeltas are way too expensive to take many of, so it'll probably be a full squad with all the ablative wounds and everything. And if they do kill it, I'm going to make it as hard as possible so they weren't killing other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.

Valorous heart is sacrificing that extra D6 range in exchange for needing less ablative bodies to offset the cost of the meltas

I think the better buy, though less CP, is spreading multimeltas into multiple ret squads, gives you more cherubs to sac for extra melta shots and ablative bodies in exchange for less cp efficiency

Oh, I assumed you'd take several such squads, all with multimelta. My brigade is looking at 2x multimelta, 1x heavy flamer rets among the horde

I'm not looking at any HF rets, unless HF rets wind up being cheap as all hell.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Oh, I assumed you'd take several such squads, all with multimelta. My brigade is looking at 2x multimelta, 1x heavy flamer rets among the horde

as an additional aside, you could spread your multimeltas out REALLY thin, taking the faction which gives the +1 to hit if a squad has taken casualties to offset moving and shooting so you can mix them into 15 model sisters squads instead. :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also dont forget to setup your flamer rets for holy trinity
They are absolutely ball busting with cleansing flames and trinity

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think that 24"/36" is enough range with 6" of movement to reach their targets, and that getting to ignore Bolt Rifles and having a 6+++ outweighs the extra movement, particularly because they'll probably find a nice tower to climb up and shoot from there.

Fair enough! I don't rely on 6++s, and find that if the enemy knows I ignore AP-1 and the threat is big enough (e.g a bazillion multimeltas) they just blast me with their heavy weapons (e.g. battlecannons/battlecannon equivalents).

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm not looking at any HF rets, unless HF rets wind up being cheap as all hell.

I am taking them amongst the horde for the sweet 12" range on heavy flamers. Immolators really sold me on 12" range flamers that can advance and shoot, and now that immos are gone, Rets conveniently have that rule. They're essentially my "emergency response" unit, able to plop down lots of pain at the same range that storm bolters can rapid fire, while being a small enough threat that the enemy won't focus them (at least if I have other stuff going on, like the MM rets and dominions).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think that 24"/36" is enough range with 6" of movement to reach their targets, and that getting to ignore Bolt Rifles and having a 6+++ outweighs the extra movement, particularly because they'll probably find a nice tower to climb up and shoot from there.

Fair enough! I don't rely on 6++s, and find that if the enemy knows I ignore AP-1 and the threat is big enough (e.g a bazillion multimeltas) they just blast me with their heavy weapons (e.g. battlecannons/battlecannon equivalents).

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm not looking at any HF rets, unless HF rets wind up being cheap as all hell.

I am taking them amongst the horde for the sweet 12" range on heavy flamers. Immolators really sold me on 12" range flamers that can advance and shoot, and now that immos are gone, Rets conveniently have that rule. They're essentially my "emergency response" unit, able to plop down lots of pain at the same range that storm bolters can rapid fire, while being a small enough threat that the enemy won't focus them (at least if I have other stuff going on, like the MM rets and dominions).

Why are immolators gone?

I actually un-sold myself on the Immolation Flamer. I've been using bolter immolators for most of the edition.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think that 24"/36" is enough range with 6" of movement to reach their targets, and that getting to ignore Bolt Rifles and having a 6+++ outweighs the extra movement, particularly because they'll probably find a nice tower to climb up and shoot from there.

Fair enough! I don't rely on 6++s, and find that if the enemy knows I ignore AP-1 and the threat is big enough (e.g a bazillion multimeltas) they just blast me with their heavy weapons (e.g. battlecannons/battlecannon equivalents).

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm not looking at any HF rets, unless HF rets wind up being cheap as all hell.

I am taking them amongst the horde for the sweet 12" range on heavy flamers. Immolators really sold me on 12" range flamers that can advance and shoot, and now that immos are gone, Rets conveniently have that rule. They're essentially my "emergency response" unit, able to plop down lots of pain at the same range that storm bolters can rapid fire, while being a small enough threat that the enemy won't focus them (at least if I have other stuff going on, like the MM rets and dominions).

Why are immolators gone?

Expensive and easy to kill unless you tether them to a unit that moves the same speed as the Rets do anyways

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Why are immolators gone?

no more stacking invulnerable saves on vehicles
however it does appear you can stack "ignore -2 ap" on them

One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.

Don't forget you can take an Inquisitor (55pts) without losing the Battle Preparations or Orders. You can get things like ignore overwatch, 5++ invuln, 11+ morale bubble, targeted smite and more just from a single model. With 2-3 denies from the Inquisitor, the +3 BSS deny, and is the 4+ deny strat from the beta even a thing - you can make life a nightmare for Eldar, Chaos etc that rely on buffs. I'm picking up an Inquisitor asap to bulk up my force.

Grundz wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Why are immolators gone?

no more stacking invulnerable saves on vehicles
however it does appear you can stack "ignore -2 ap" on them

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Expensive and easy to kill unless you tether them to a unit that moves the same speed as the Rets do anyways

Interesting to see the problems others have with them.

My problem with them is that 6 transport isn't enough for all the things that want to ride, and since I was running them with Heavy Bolters anyway, Rhinos will do as well and have 10 slots for riders.

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.

+1 to charge distance bonus
keep two 5/6's from miracle dice

charge from more than 12" away and you get right in with minimal fuss

I messed about with a Bastion before - wonder if this would be vaible with the new Codex

 Grundz wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.

+1 to charge distance bonus
keep two 5/6's from miracle dice

charge from more than 12" away and you get right in with minimal fuss

You can't spend more than 1 per phase, unless the unit has a simulacrum, at which point the unit may spend one itself in addition to the other one per phase. Repentia can't take simulacra.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


You can't spend more than 1 per phase, unless the unit has a simulacrum, at which point the unit may spend one itself in addition to the other one per phase. Repentia can't take simulacra.

this is not accurate, reread the rule

You may use as many miracle dice as you like, /on a single roll/
So for example, you could use 3 of them on a single exorcist roll, to replace all three dice

charging is a single roll, taking a psychic test would also be a single roll that involves multiple dice iirc

there's like a paragraph describing replacing multiple dice that wouldn't exist if you could only replace a single dice, its on a by-roll basis not a single dice basis

 Grundz wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


You can't spend more than 1 per phase, unless the unit has a simulacrum, at which point the unit may spend one itself in addition to the other one per phase. Repentia can't take simulacra.

this is not accurate, reread the rule

You may use as many miracle dice as you like, /on a single roll/
So for example, you could use 3 of them on a single exorcist roll, to replace all three dice

charging is a single roll, taking a psychic test would also be a single roll that involves multiple dice iirc

there's like a paragraph describing replacing multiple dice that wouldn't exist if you could only replace a single dice, its on a by-roll basis not a single dice basis

I see. Interesting. I'd still be worried about outrunning support, but it's an option to aim for a 12" charge. That said, Aggressors and Centurions also have big wads of bolter fire that I still don't want to deal with. Pinning them down with thunderfire guns or basilisks seems preferable to me.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I see. Interesting. I'd still be worried about outrunning support, but it's an option to aim for a 12" charge. That said, Aggressors and Centurions also have big wads of bolter fire that I still don't want to deal with. Pinning them down with thunderfire guns or basilisks seems preferable to me.

Absolutely, it is not preferable if you have the capability, but its a good tool to have under your belt, sisters ability to do impossible high risk moves like that with guaranteed results shouldn't be underestimated

A.T. wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.

You are in the wrong thread. Anyone looking for a win on a silver platter hasn't been playing sisters these past few editions.

He's not wrong about the attitude. I've absolutely found that the worse the general is, the more he demands from his codex and the louder the complaints online. Lol.

I know a guy locally who I table every time we play (or he concedes to save himself the ignominy). He just took 2nd at an event with Iron Hands. I tabled his Iron Hands also, but his list does him great favors and I was forced to get creative for most of the game. He's doing what he can with the skill he has, but you can bet he cant and WONT afford to play "under powered" things. He simply can't afford to. I know he'll beat me soon with the Space Marine lists he's slinigng, and I am kind of looking forward to that because he is a really great guy. But it makes my point: You can do a lot with less.

When you sign up for Sisters of Battle, you sign up for one of the most prestigious armies there is. Revel in it.

When Sisters of Battle get a win, we GET A WIN. That feels pretty damn good. Opponents are left standing there, wondering how in the world that just happened and going through all the "should have's". "Should" is a stupid word.

Just win, baby!

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I'm also not sold on whether the sacred rites is going to outweigh the loss of Imperial Guard long-range support fire, especially with Exorcists going up in cost and no real support for vehicles from most of the doctrines. We'll have to see though, because we can dole out more than three relics it looks like, and both Death to the False Everything and +3 to deny the witch sounds pretty nice.

Therefore, I'm going to need to have Exorcists in my army, which is going to hurt how much more I'm paying for them [and that they lost a point of AP :(. I was really happy with them as they were. Now, rather than comparing with a Vindicator as a sidegrade, they compare unfavorably with a Leman Russ Demolisher]. The Exorcists and their babysitters will be Valorous Heart. None of the other orders offer any benefit to them, and ignoring AP-2 and a 6+++ could be worse. That said, most AT is AP-3 or higher, so if I wind up not being able to compartmentalize they'll be fine in the regular group.

Don't forget, exorcist went from d6 shots to 3d3
That's a MASSIVE firepower improvement. you get 6 (or more) shots off 63% of the time now, compared to the old 16.6% for 6 shots-and 6 shots being the new AVERAGE roll, rather than the edge case.

Even with the loss of AP, the exorcist firepower has gone massively up. its about 42% more damage per volley against most targets, and if the target has an invul (knights for example?) than its even more in favor of the new gun, being about 72% more destructive.
So cost compared, the exorcist became some more glass, but a lot more hammer.
Two would be nearly as destructive as three used to be.
And with VH, and babysitter imagifier they won't go down easy either. much of today's meta is based around spamming AP-1/-2 shots as the anti-tank. (and anti infantry as well. VH in general seems to be a boss)

I definitely think there's good (and cool) stuff in this dex. It doesn't mertic doom and gloom by any means. One thing I dig is that that the army really seems to encourage taking a detachments with different orders to do different things in a fluid way.

At the same time, my minor disappointment is in that this was an opportunity to expand the army's options and they really just didn't take it. Like, the couple of new HQs are cool, but the army itself didn't add anything except a couple alt-build kits and pretty much kept all the same wargear they've always had.

Like, I would have like to see some unique weapon options for the infantry squads that highlight the differences between them and have fun with their flame/melta-centric and somewhat impractical zealot flavor. Dominions with some crazy melta-shotgun/pulseblaster style profile weapon. A wacky flamer-sniper option on Retributors. Why does a Zephyrim have a regular power sword? It should be like on fire and do something interesting.

 Grundz wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.

+1 to charge distance bonus
keep two 5/6's from miracle dice

charge from more than 12" away and you get right in with minimal fuss

Core rules prohibit you from charging if you're more than 12" away. It's why Jain-zar has a rule that lets her charge from 15" away.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I'm also not sold on whether the sacred rites is going to outweigh the loss of Imperial Guard long-range support fire, especially with Exorcists going up in cost and no real support for vehicles from most of the doctrines. We'll have to see though, because we can dole out more than three relics it looks like, and both Death to the False Everything and +3 to deny the witch sounds pretty nice.

Therefore, I'm going to need to have Exorcists in my army, which is going to hurt how much more I'm paying for them [and that they lost a point of AP :(. I was really happy with them as they were. Now, rather than comparing with a Vindicator as a sidegrade, they compare unfavorably with a Leman Russ Demolisher]. The Exorcists and their babysitters will be Valorous Heart. None of the other orders offer any benefit to them, and ignoring AP-2 and a 6+++ could be worse. That said, most AT is AP-3 or higher, so if I wind up not being able to compartmentalize they'll be fine in the regular group.

Don't forget, exorcist went from d6 shots to 3d3
That's a MASSIVE firepower improvement. you get 6 (or more) shots off 63% of the time now, compared to the old 16.6% for 6 shots-and 6 shots being the new AVERAGE roll, rather than the edge case.

Even with the loss of AP, the exorcist firepower has gone massively up. its about 42% more damage per volley against most targets, and if the target has an invul (knights for example?) than its even more in favor of the new gun, being about 72% more destructive.
So cost compared, the exorcist became some more glass, but a lot more hammer.
Two would be nearly as destructive as three used to be.
And with VH, and babysitter imagifier they won't go down easy either. much of today's meta is based around spamming AP-1/-2 shots as the anti-tank. (and anti infantry as well. VH in general seems to be a boss)

No one is shooting tanks with AP-1 OR AP-2 anymore. Not since marines dropped. Marines doctrines give them abundant AP-3. The only things that still shoot significant AP-2 are knights. The imagifier bonus and VH are irrelevant. They only affect ap-2 or lower. That means IH stormcannons, lascannons, plasma, darklances, etc(i.e, the things people will actually shoot at it) go right through to the invul.

Two is almost as expensive as 3 used to be. They're still mandatory because they're our only decent long range shooting, but it's still not a happy moment putting on into a list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grundz wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


You can't spend more than 1 per phase, unless the unit has a simulacrum, at which point the unit may spend one itself in addition to the other one per phase. Repentia can't take simulacra.

this is not accurate, reread the rule

You may use as many miracle dice as you like, /on a single roll/
So for example, you could use 3 of them on a single exorcist roll, to replace all three dice

charging is a single roll, taking a psychic test would also be a single roll that involves multiple dice iirc

there's like a paragraph describing replacing multiple dice that wouldn't exist if you could only replace a single dice, its on a by-roll basis not a single dice basis

Can't use them on number of shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I'm questioning the viability of mechanized Dominions right now, what with Infiltrators, Incursors, and Invictors being out there to stop them from moving, so they might get the axe entirely in favor of meltapistol Seraphim under Order of the Argent Shroud or Zephyrim under Order of the Bloody Rose, leaning towards the former. Of note, though, is that neither Argent Shroud Doms or Argent Shroud Seraphim are fast enough to bring any meltaguns into range from being locked into the deployment zone on turn 1, so the answer might be "Neither: Valorous Heart Retributors" and just cough up the extra points.

Not to nitpick, but there's a lot of discrete ideas here and this is the only one I have a strong opinion on:

Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.

For later in the battle, or if the enemy is closing with you (e.g. daemon engines) you can put a combiflamer on the sergeant to trigger Holy Trinity, if you feel its necessary (though this can obviously be done with Doms too)
EDIT:
For reference, with a 6 on the advance (and the correct Rite), your multi-meltas can shoot 6 times, each shot doing an average of 4.5 damage if it gets through, out to 49" away from their start point on Turn 1.

MM rets are still not great as dedicated anti-tank for 3 very simple reasons.

1. multimeltas are obscenely overpriced. 22pts for a MM vs 25 for a lascannon is ridiculous in an age of vehicle invuls. A squad of is rets is 153 (needs simulacrum) points before cherubs and requires significant support to compete with similarly costed units in other army's at baseline. I would also argue that cherubs are overpriced as well.

2. Invuls exist. With 4 shots per unit, even with perfect rolls, you're unlikely to land more than 2 hits on 90% of common targets. So you end up investing CP and possibly even miracle dice and very possibly getting nothing out of it.

3. They're footslog battle sisters. Argent shroud and the strat gives them a huge range, sure, but IH lascannon devs have a 54" range with native reroll 1s to hit firing a superior gun, and no one even considers running those. They're just too easy to kill.

Seraphim with the descent strat do the same amount of damage but have better protection, are massively cheaper, and require less CP. After that, most other armies have more efficient options for anti-tank that we can borrow. A dual twin-las contemptor mortis is only 168, hits on 2s, is almost impossible bracket, has better character support, and has a much better Chassis with access to a half damage strat.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grundz wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.

Wow, you should probably know your audience before throwing stuff like this around.

Only the best of the best I'm sure

More like people who have spent multiple editions fighting tooth and nail for whatever scraps of victory they could. Minus that glorious period in the index before RO3 came out.

Jancoran wrote:

A.T. wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.

You are in the wrong thread. Anyone looking for a win on a silver platter hasn't been playing sisters these past few editions.

He's not wrong about the attitude. I've absolutely found that the worse the general is, the more he demands from his codex and the louder the complaints online. Lol.

I know a guy locally who I table every time we play (or he concedes to save himself the ignominy). He just took 2nd at an event with Iron Hands. I tabled his Iron Hands also, but his list does him great favors and I was forced to get creative for most of the game. He's doing what he can with the skill he has, but you can bet he cant and WONT afford to play "under powered" things. He simply can't afford to. I know he'll beat me soon with the Space Marine lists he's slinigng, and I am kind of looking forward to that because he is a really great guy. But it makes my point: You can do a lot with less.

When you sign up for Sisters of Battle, you sign up for one of the most prestigious armies there is. Revel in it.

When Sisters of Battle get a win, we GET A WIN. That feels pretty damn good. Opponents are left standing there, wondering how in the world that just happened and going through all the "should have's". "Should" is a stupid word.

Just win, baby!

I don't feel that way. I get wins with my Sisters of Battle all the time, far more than I face defeat. In fact, they've been my go-to competitive force since sometime mid-7th. I also feel that no army should be as you describe, every army should be fun to play.

We have some really solid and really powerful unit choices: beta codex Exorcists, Dominions in general, Seraphim, Celestine, etc.

I think the only real obstacle I'm looking at is the increased cost of the Exorcists [which basically cuts 100 points out of the list], and the existence of Space Marine Codex Supplements. The Space Marines in general invalidate any sort of heavily armored infantry in the meta, which is why I'm leaning towards Order of the Valorous Heart for the main PA infantry group: so that I'm buying 9 point Guardsmen.

BoomWolf wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Therefore, I'm going to need to have Exorcists in my army, which is going to hurt how much more I'm paying for them [and that they lost a point of AP :(. I was really happy with them as they were. Now, rather than comparing with a Vindicator as a sidegrade, they compare unfavorably with a Leman Russ Demolisher]. The Exorcists and their babysitters will be Valorous Heart. None of the other orders offer any benefit to them, and ignoring AP-2 and a 6+++ could be worse. That said, most AT is AP-3 or higher, so if I wind up not being able to compartmentalize they'll be fine in the regular group.

Don't forget, exorcist went from d6 shots to 3d3
That's a MASSIVE firepower improvement. you get 6 (or more) shots off 63% of the time now, compared to the old 16.6% for 6 shots-and 6 shots being the new AVERAGE roll, rather than the edge case.

Even with the loss of AP, the exorcist firepower has gone massively up. its about 42% more damage per volley against most targets, and if the target has an invul (knights for example?) than its even more in favor of the new gun, being about 72% more destructive.
So cost compared, the exorcist became some more glass, but a lot more hammer.
Two would be nearly as destructive as three used to be.
And with VH, and babysitter imagifier they won't go down easy either. much of today's meta is based around spamming AP-1/-2 shots as the anti-tank. (and anti infantry as well. VH in general seems to be a boss)

We'll have to see, but I liked only having to pay 125 points for them. They were less capable, but they weren't incapable, and they were very powerful for their cost. At 160 points, they're in a new weight bracket where they're punching below the bar, and their destruction is felt more strongly.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I don't feel that way. I get wins with my Sisters of Battle all the time, far more than I face defeat. In fact, they've been my go-to competitive force since sometime mid-7th..

You sound like you disagree...but then you go ahead and agree with me? I don't understand that. I have done the same. 46-6 with the current build (on hiatus for a couple months to play other armies). I don't understand what you're disagreeing with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

We have some really solid and really powerful unit choices: beta codex Exorcists, Dominions in general, Seraphim, Celestine, etc.
.

Beta Codex was okay. I made it work. Exorcists were great, always have been really but you couldnt take less than three of them reliably so how good were they REALLY... But if you looked at them as a trio sure. Dominion lost their lustre, sadly, i nthe Beta Codex but yes Seraphim are useful if a little unit schangey. Celestine: agreed. But then she also has been a near auto include in the last two iterations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rbstr wrote:
I definitely think there's good (and cool) stuff in this dex. It doesn't mertic doom and gloom by any means. One thing I dig is that that the army really seems to encourage taking a detachments with different orders to do different things in a fluid way.

At the same time, my minor disappointment is in that this was an opportunity to expand the army's options and they really just didn't take it. Like, the couple of new HQs are cool, but the army itself didn't add anything except a couple alt-build kits and pretty much kept all the same wargear they've always had.

Like, I would have like to see some unique weapon options for the infantry squads that highlight the differences between them and have fun with their flame/melta-centric and somewhat impractical zealot flavor. Dominions with some crazy melta-shotgun/pulseblaster style profile weapon. A wacky flamer-sniper option on Retributors. Why does a Zephyrim have a regular power sword? It should be like on fire and do something interesting.

Maybe so and you may not even be wrong on most of it. But what we didn't get shouldnt be the focus of our energy. THE question is: do we have enough to go to war and make them SEE US!?

rbstr wrote:
I definitely think there's good (and cool) stuff in this dex. It doesn't mertic doom and gloom by any means. One thing I dig is that that the army really seems to encourage taking a detachments with different orders to do different things in a fluid way.

At the same time, my minor disappointment is in that this was an opportunity to expand the army's options and they really just didn't take it. Like, the couple of new HQs are cool, but the army itself didn't add anything except a couple alt-build kits and pretty much kept all the same wargear they've always had.

They couldn't. I know people got really excited, but it seemed pretty obvious from the get-go that redoing the entire range and the general size of GW releases meant that was largely all they were doing. A couple dual kits, a few new characters and a building were honestly past my most optimistic appraisal. Brand new (or redone) armies just aren't that big.

Now, as a positive, the boxed set (despite being too limited) seems to have exceeded GW's expectations, and if the real launch goes similarly... Well. They might get a priority flag for a second wave or earlier update. Though it will likely be along the lines of the GSC update- a passel of characters, a unit and a vehicle.

Like, I would have like to see some unique weapon options for the infantry squads that highlight the differences between them and have fun with their flame/melta-centric and somewhat impractical zealot flavor. Dominions with some crazy melta-shotgun/pulseblaster style profile weapon. A wacky flamer-sniper option on Retributors. Why does a Zephyrim have a regular power sword? It should be like on fire and do something interesting.

That smacks of warpcraft, citizen.

ahh, the smell of bickering and counter bickering in each thread i can find on this topic when the books been laid out at roughly 90% even for me.

ill be quick for codex comments- this book slapped my playstyle and focuses directly, and we don't know if legends will take the Repressor as well. since thats the case, I'm trying to just focus on plausible lists, not that i have the capability to test them.

for me, also focusing on agent shroud and mono that with a ranged focus, i have no interest in most of the new models, barring zephyrim with pennant as an assist to a charge-screen, or the morts for more heavy bolters (since thats the profile they see fit to give us now as range). Double battalion standard, leaving open room for a fort for a battle sanctum or extra heavy support slots of space is needed, since for me the competition for slots is heavy support.

The real question is where the focus in the lists will lie and what will rise to the top, likely bloody rose and valorous heart orders, but for me, heres the takeaways.

barring the increases to cost, still seems like 2 exorcists are needed at least, maybe 3. expensive, but not without a rate of fire improvement to go with it. do wish i could go back to my stormbolters over heavys on that one though. but i also wish that i could run stormbolters on superiors again so that strategem would have- moving on...

3 retributors IF you favor their new abilities for me, tri HB was a list fixture in theory, but now... even more so. if not for rule of 3, id run more, and they can take HF or even MM barring MM's cost and use them well. speaking of core sister stuff, Seraphim are minorly better, dominions are worse, Celestians are... sliiiightly better than before, but really it's so little i feel like it's nearly splitting hairs compared to what i think they could have done ( OPEN THE MELEE VAULT), and Repentia are a LOT better, but still need a fair bit of support to optimize compared to other melee options in the book.

some kind of melee counterpunch. for my list im looking at 1-2 missionaries and the remainder using my canoness's to limit cost, so since i will always have at least one, may as well bring some arco's and a rhino, maybe more. pengines or morti's don't benefit from just about any auras i can see, and zephyrim don't confer charge bonuses to non-order with pennant, so the list adjusts by how much support you want a unit to get.

speaking of which, distractions and speed. pengines and morti's qualify as distractions as well as any vehicle going forward with something angry, but with Dominions no longer able to vanguard in transports, i feel like seraphim and Zephyrim may be more valuable, even more so if your bloody rose. that deepstrike function especially if you employ burning descent with seraphim lets you drop roadblocks the enemy will have to deal with... and while unsupported it won't be that hard, we do now have the ability to send in 2 types of units that can. for tying up in melee a squad of zephyrim with pennant can spot any same order unit for charge rerolls, then go in themselves. problem is points add up here, and i don't know if it's worth it.

another thing on the mind is how much imperial stuff can we bring in, and is it worth it to stay mono for.. i think just sacred rites? which i kind of want to for pulling out the denies. been trying to get verification on this, but i think that you can fit in inquisition and assassins without breaking it? if not, just the inquisitor, which can help with slot filling and other support. Hopefully assassins can be employed as well.

im just underwhelmed by most of the rites, even if i know ill get use out of them. hand of the emperor, the passion, and the deny improvement are my picks.

Thats at least some of whats on the mind, trying to look forward with what we have instead of what i had hoped, which was none of what we got, or what we had. (Edit 1) also, im kind of bothered by how the zephyrim and the new canoness feel with regards to restrictions. the zephyrim in particular should be allowed other options, but are ONLY a build rather close to the designed seraphim superiors. as nice as the new blessed blade is, i feel bad for the other modeled designs for canoness's, and the lost weapon options. incidentally, im not happy to lose Uriah, because i had hoped for more ministorum eventually, but I feel like they are slowly floating into the background even more.

Voss wrote:
Now, as a positive, the boxed set (despite being too limited) seems to have exceeded GW's expectations, and if the real launch goes similarly... Well. They might get a priority flag for a second wave or earlier update. Though it will likely be along the lines of the GSC update- a passel of characters, a unit and a vehicle.

I don't think it actually did.

The https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/16/faith-fury-and-the-underworlds/ arcticle originally had a few sentences at the top saying along the lines of "The Sisters of Battle set is sold out, but you can get it still in stores on launch day" when it was posted, which was edited out as the Sisters of Battle set had not actually sold out at that time. There's still a * at the bottom that alludes to this statement with no corresponding * in the article.

In addition, the https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/18/sisters-of-battle-situation-report/ was posted briefly, saying the same thing it does now, very soon after the box set was put to sale in America, and was immediately taken down as it wasn't sold out yet.

I don't actually know how fast it sold out [I was waiting at 10:00AM when it went online], but I suspect however fast it sold out, that GW expected it to sell out even faster.

Jancoran wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I don't feel that way. I get wins with my Sisters of Battle all the time, far more than I face defeat. In fact, they've been my go-to competitive force since sometime mid-7th..

You sound like you disagree...but then you go ahead and agree with me? I don't understand that. I have done the same. 46-6 with the current build (on hiatus for a couple months to play other armies). I don't understand what you're disagreeing with.

I was disagreeing with the sentiment that Sisters winning was exceptional and to be savored, and that opponents who lose are taken by surprise. And expressing that our army is pretty average-above average.