Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Sim-Life wrote:

I was really hoping for power spears and storm shields, theres plenty of power swords in the army, I'd like something a bit different.

so much same. see, i was hoping when the art of sword and shield sisters came out, you'd be able to build celestians into melee sisters with storm shields and such if you wanted them. especially with the Canoness as she is with her melee options, that would be an interesting column. power spears though? very much yes.

i think the reason the canoness and Zephyrim are so specific is because of current GW policy. Zephryim can't take other power weapons or blessed blades because... they only sculpted for power swords, and forgive the nature of this assumption, they had that already set that up off the seraphim superiors or the geminae (which might be why they can't even do Chainswords...). due to how far they were willing to go for the upcoming multipart canoness may be why there's no evicerator blade either, to say nothing of the other removed options for her.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Bdrone wrote:

and that Zephyrim are restrictive on their melee options as well.

Same. I was really hoping for power spears and storm shields, theres plenty of power swords in the army, I'd like something a bit different.

i'll sculpt up some spears but it'll be up to you to convince neckbeards that its fine :p

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Bdrone wrote:

and that Zephyrim are restrictive on their melee options as well.

Same. I was really hoping for power spears and storm shields, theres plenty of power swords in the army, I'd like something a bit different.

Yeah, I was hoping for some shields too. There are plenty of really cool arts about with Sororitas that have shields - even official art.

What sucks is that Zephyrim can't just take chainswords.

A S3, T3 unit with powerswords is utterly useless. Anything that has that kind of armor will A. Be too high toughness for them to hurt, even rerolling to wound. B. Have an invul. Or C. Kill them in overwatch.

If they had Chainswords (which is an option that is sculpted on at least 1 model in the box) they'd be WAY better. They could go full meatgrinder on chaff units and be a lot cheaper so they'd at least have a purpose in the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Hoc Est Bellum wrote:
The Veil is -1 against all hits, but given T3 the Surplice is going to be at least -1 to wound against most attacks whilst also improving your save.

I think it says 'unmodified 1, 2, or 3' as well, so anything with a bonus to wound rolls won't factor.

Yeah, so the supplice is better.

I think I love the Argent Shroud conviction and the stratgem is pretty good (if I recall correctly, it's a 5+++ save on a unit, but I could be wrong). But their relic is a bit naff.

Kind like how ebon chalice has by far the best warlord trait and one of the best stratagems but a terrible conviction.

Did a test match vs a full imperial Knight list, wiped him off the board turn 4, used miracle dice to deal 19 damage to his castellan right away and 11 to his crusader the next turn, MD are fantastic if you bank some high numbers for damage. a single unit of buffed repentia blew up a gallant in one combat. mortifiers did ok but they didnt have any real targets with their flails. while the seraphim didnt do much they were a huge distraction which took fire off the rest of my army. Zephyrim did 7 wounds to the castellan in the first charge with the bloody rose strat, still really good.

Overall i think it worked out well the exorcists have massive damage potential and would have done way more if it wasn't vs knights with a invulnerable save, way worth it even with the pts increase. If there wes more infanty or they had saws mortifiers could have been amazing. miracle dice were great tho i did have a bank of 1,2,2,2, by the end of the match and that's after i used 3 low rolls to resurrect a character. the passion on a melee list was amazing, the fact that its a extra hit on a 6 is bonkers.

My list

Bloody Rose Brigade

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [68 PL, 1553pts] ++

Order of the Bloody Rose

+ HQ +

Canoness [3 PL, 54pts]: Bolt Pistol, Power sword, rod of office: Relic Blade of Admon, Bloody rose Warlord trait

Canoness [3 PL, 45pts]: Bolt Pistol, chainsword: relic Bloody rose Chainsword

Missionary 38

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]

. 2x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter

. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]

. 2x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter

. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]

. 2x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter

. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]

. 2x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter

. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]

. 2x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter

. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]

. 2x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter

. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

+ Elites +

Zephyrim Squad [6 PL, 90pts]

. 4x Zephyrim

. Zephyrim Superior: Power Sword, Bolt pistol, Zephyrim Pennant

Zephyrim Squad [6 PL, 90pts]

. 4x Zephyrim

. Zephyrim Superior: Power Sword, Bolt pistol, Zephyrim Pennant

Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis

Repentia Squad [6 PL, 104pts]: 8x Repentia

Repentia Squad [6 PL, 104pts]: 8x Repentia

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad [5 PL, 60pts]

. Dominion Superior: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

Seraphim Squad [6 PL, 88pts]

. 2x Seraphim

. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol

. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad [6 PL, 88pts]

. 2x Seraphim

. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol

. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

+ Heavy Support +

Mortifiers [9 PL, 58]

. Mortifier: 2x Heavy Bolter 2x Flail

Mortifiers [9 PL, 58]

. Mortifier: 2x Heavy Bolter 2x Flail

Mortifiers [9 PL, 58]

. Mortifier: 2x Heavy Bolter 2x Flail

+ Dedicated Transport +

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 67pts]: Storm bolter

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 67pts]: Storm bolter

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 67pts]: Storm bolter

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 67pts]: Storm bolter

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [24 PL, 446pts] ++

Order of the Valorous Heart

+ HQ +

Canoness [3 PL, 50pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Rod of office, Warlord trait +1 Miracle dice

+ Heavy Support +

Penetant Engine [9 PL, 56]

. Engine: 2x HeavyFlamer 2x saw

Exorcist Missles [7 PL, 170pts]

Exorcist Missles [7 PL, 170pts]

++ Total: [92 PL, 1999] ++

Good Emperor on His throne, that list is hard to read in the current formatting.

Also Zephyrim are real good, str 3 reroll wounds is far better than just str 4. Also they provide a reroll charge aura and for 1 cp a reroll 1s to wound aura.

also I'm pretty sure that the chainsword outperforms the relic blade against many targets
an extra 3 attacks in exchange for "only" ap3 and D2 and 9 points cheaper

also that looks like battlescribe but battlescribe hasn't bee updated?

You had storm bolters on all of your superiors. They've been removed from the ranged list, yes?

 deviantduck wrote:
You had storm bolters on all of your superiors. They've been removed from the ranged list, yes?

Can still take via index tho its not list killing either way, still need the squads for Brigade


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grundz wrote:
also I'm pretty sure that the chainsword outperforms the relic blade against many targets
an extra 3 attacks in exchange for "only" ap3 and D2 and 9 points cheaper

also that looks like battlescribe but battlescribe hasn't bee updated?

MathHammer its roughly the same vs SM equiv, relic Chainsword better vs weaker, blessed blades better vs vehicles and such, roughly the same vs t5 also.

Used BattleScribe as a base then edited the pts and wargear

I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.

Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.

Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...

Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.

The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)

 Grundz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.

Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...

Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.

The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)

I am eyeing up the Iron Supplice for a melee Canoness for Argent Shroud, allowing her to gum up even a Knight in close combat - 12 attacks with feet, 8 hits, only 4 wounds, and between miracle dice and a 4+ armor save she'd be in great shape.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.

Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...

Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.

The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)

I am eyeing up the Iron Supplice for a melee Canoness for Argent Shroud, allowing her to gum up even a Knight in close combat - 12 attacks with feet, 8 hits, only 4 wounds, and between miracle dice and a 4+ armor save she'd be in great shape.

yeah get this, valorous heart can take that, where she will ignore the ap-2 so she has a 2+/6+++ against those feet XD

at a certain point though that knight is going to swing its chainsword instead of its feet

I really like how the codex provides a bunch of ways to play and specific units arnt auto include for any army you run anymore(celestine, dominions in repressors ect.) also all the orders have a way to be useful.

 Grundz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.

Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...

Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.

The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)

I am eyeing up the Iron Supplice for a melee Canoness for Argent Shroud, allowing her to gum up even a Knight in close combat - 12 attacks with feet, 8 hits, only 4 wounds, and between miracle dice and a 4+ armor save she'd be in great shape.

yeah get this, valorous heart can take that, where she will ignore the ap-2 so she has a 2+/6+++ against those feet XD

at a certain point though that knight is going to swing its chainsword instead of its feet

That's only if you have an imagifier nearby, which will be the Knight's first target, rather than the Iron Supplice lady (if he can target her but I digress).

The Chainsword vs. the Iron Supplice is even funnier, because it's highly likely you'll see only 1 or 2 wounds, which is 1 4++ miracle die or CP reroll away from stymieing the Knight even harder.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.

Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...

Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.

The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)

I am eyeing up the Iron Supplice for a melee Canoness for Argent Shroud, allowing her to gum up even a Knight in close combat - 12 attacks with feet, 8 hits, only 4 wounds, and between miracle dice and a 4+ armor save she'd be in great shape.

yeah get this, valorous heart can take that, where she will ignore the ap-2 so she has a 2+/6+++ against those feet XD

at a certain point though that knight is going to swing its chainsword instead of its feet

That's only if you have an imagifier nearby, which will be the Knight's first target, rather than the Iron Supplice lady (if he can target her but I digress).

The Chainsword vs. the Iron Supplice is even funnier, because it's highly likely you'll see only 1 or 2 wounds, which is 1 4++ miracle die or CP reroll away from stymieing the Knight even harder.

Cant target her normally, could leave her out of los and even if they use the strat and roll a 4+ on the wounds you can just use divine intervention to resurrect her.

Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.

How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,

2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.

With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.

How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,

2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.

With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".

you can use 1 dice per dice rolled to be used, so if you have 5 shots you can use 5 MD to hit with.

Danit wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.

How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,

2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.

With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".

you can use 1 dice per dice rolled to be used, so if you have 5 shots you can use 5 MD to hit with.

Each to-hit roll is a separate roll, though, after you've determined the number of attacks you make. So you can't, for example, use 4 MD to guarantee hits for a rapid-fire storm bolter.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Danit wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.

How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,

2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.

With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".

you can use 1 dice per dice rolled to be used, so if you have 5 shots you can use 5 MD to hit with.

Each to-hit roll is a separate roll, though, after you've determined the number of attacks you make. So you can't, for example, use 4 MD to guarantee hits for a rapid-fire storm bolter.

that sounds like something that def needs a faq, what it says specifically is: before making a dice roll for a model or unit you may choose to use one or more of the dice from your miracle dice pool instead. For each individual dice that is being rolled as part of the dice roll you may substitute one miracle dice.

Danit wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Danit wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.

How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,

2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.

With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".

you can use 1 dice per dice rolled to be used, so if you have 5 shots you can use 5 MD to hit with.

Each to-hit roll is a separate roll, though, after you've determined the number of attacks you make. So you can't, for example, use 4 MD to guarantee hits for a rapid-fire storm bolter.

that sounds like something that def needs a faq

No, it's actually pretty clear.

'Fast rolling' means you roll all of the to-hit rolls together for similar weapon types (e.g. all 3 storm bolters in a squad), but each roll is a separate to-hit roll. You are not doing a single roll of 12 dice, nor are you doing 3 separate rolls of 4 dice - you are doing one to-hit roll per shot, and are doing so 12 times. And you happen to roll them simultaneously because it is easier, but that's not the rules.
EDIT:
Here's a question. If you fired 15 bolters in rapid-fire range from a fifteen girl squad, how many miracle dice could you use (of the 30 dice you're rolling) to make them all hit, assuming you've got an infinitely big pool of miracle dice?

Danit wrote:

Each to-hit roll is a separate roll, though, after you've determined the number of attacks you make. So you can't, for example, use 4 MD to guarantee hits for a rapid-fire storm bolter.

that sounds like something that def needs a faq, what it says specifically is: before making a dice roll for a model or unit you may choose to use one or more of the dice from your miracle dice pool instead. For each individual dice that is being rolled as part of the dice roll you may substitute one miracle dice.

 deviantduck wrote:
You had storm bolters on all of your superiors. They've been removed from the ranged list, yes?

Doesn't matter until the index option gets invalidated in warhammer legends.

Hopefully someone will do a test game soon where they play the right rules

If you can't use multiple miracle dice to affect the same 'damage roll' the book is even more DoA than I thought.

What fething good is one dice per phase going to be?

No, I'm sorry but the rule absolutely HAS to work by allowing every single dice in a given roll to be substituted, or it's pant on head slowed.

Not to mention that you can VERY easily generate more dice than you can use in a game with Sanctum, Beacon, OoML, repentia, Triumph, the MD strats and Unit dice. (You're not going to put simulacrum on BSS if you only get to use one dice with them).

God dam would that be a terrible fething rule if you can only substitute one dice. Why even bother keeping track of them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:
Hopefully someone will do a test game soon where they play the right rules

No one asked you.

Maybe it's because of the rules im familiar with, but im a little surprised people ever thought the miracle die worked any differently than a pre-rolled command reroll you can use in addition to such a thing per phase outside of effects that let you use more than one a turn.

best overall use ive found for the miracle die is autopassing some saves, making a heavyier weapon hit or wound, or the obvious 4/5/6 auto on damage. the exact number for a charge, or an advance to help nab objectives. these are in addition to discarding die for strategem effects.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bdrone wrote:
Maybe it's because of the rules im familiar with, but im a little surprised people ever thought the miracle die worked any differently than a pre-rolled command reroll you can use in addition to such a thing per phase outside of effects that let you use more than one a turn.

best overall use ive found for the miracle die is autopassing some saves, making a heavyier weapon hit or wound, or the obvious 4/5/6 auto on damage. the exact number for a charge, or an advance to help nab objectives. these are in addition to discarding die for strategem effects.

What rules are you familiar with that something this weak could be okay as an army rule? Because it's not 40k.

I mean, if there were good units in the book that just need a little bit of a boost, 1 miracle dice per phase might be fine, but most of the units that can actually use miracle dice are severely overpriced or under equipped.

Oh this is not going to be a fun time. Every line of this book is a kick in the nads. Is it wrong to want to dump-sack every playtesters house?

Wait...why'd they take dominion's vanguard away if they're not worried about using MD to auto do 30 damage?


Sidebar: What do you mean 'best uses'? Those are the ONLY uses. Anybody who would use their 1 dice per turn to auto pass bolter shots doesn't understand math enough to play this game anyway.

ERJAK wrote:

Bdrone wrote:
Maybe it's because of the rules im familiar with, but im a little surprised people ever thought the miracle die worked any differently than a pre-rolled command reroll you can use in addition to such a thing per phase outside of effects that let you use more than one a turn.

What rules are you familiar with that something this weak could be okay as an army rule? Because it's not 40k.

its the fact that in this system most rolls that are grouped are more just agreed upon to save time, not because they actually are. i noticed this when i was learning Tau and how when you go for markerlights, you can one by one until a shot that marks lands, then the others get rerolls, and then people usually just group the rolls from there. when i then saw what you can use miracle dice on, i said "okay, I think this rule works like mostly just one dice." then i saw the wording again and since charge rolls are outright 2d6's, both numbers appear to be tamperable. but that's as far as i got.

I would like to know why they removed the things they did in general. but my guess is someone with enough pull thought dominions were to good, even though they use to be attached to vehicles period.

(Edit): you CAN use it on less effective stuff, but BEST and ONLY are two different things. i left out morale and denies for a reason, mostly because the moments it Would be useful on either one of those will be less often than you may think, depending on who you fight.

In practice you can easily use several more than one die per phase by taking the options that allow you to do so. Like the simulacrum you just talked about....

rbstr wrote:
In practice you can easily use several more than one die per phase by taking the options that allow you to do so. Like the simulacrum you just talked about....

Which is pretty bad.

You're not going to pay extra points or even buy extra models in the case of retributors, to get one dice. Even on MM retributors that's terrible. The most value you could possibly get out of a miracle dice is 5 damage and even that's only a 1 in 6 chance.

The system becomes a noose where you're throwing good points after bad miracle dice just to keep up with how many you're generating.

The only solace is that there is no need for beacon of faith, the battle sanctum, the triumph, OoML, or any of the strats that generate faith dice. 2 per battleround is frankly more than you need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bdrone wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Bdrone wrote:
Maybe it's because of the rules im familiar with, but im a little surprised people ever thought the miracle die worked any differently than a pre-rolled command reroll you can use in addition to such a thing per phase outside of effects that let you use more than one a turn.

What rules are you familiar with that something this weak could be okay as an army rule? Because it's not 40k.

(Edit): you CAN use it on less effective stuff, but BEST and ONLY are two different things. i left out morale and denies for a reason, mostly because the moments it Would be useful on either one of those will be less often than you may think, depending on who you fight.

I disagree, if you're not using it on the BEST, you shouldn't be using it. You were right to leave out morale and denies, those are inefficient uses, even in a good miracle dice system, given the myriad of better ways there are to deal with morale and psykers.