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Seraphim with dual inferno pistols worth burning 2 CP for +6 range and reroll 1's to hit on the turn they deep strike in? 4 melta re-rolling 1's might be worth it. Also it might be 2 cps for the reroll so maybe not. Info is from 1d4chan tactica. Also, can Seraphim take 4 special weapons if squad size is 10 in new codex? My hunch says no...

Also, sorry if either of these things have already been discussed ( just migrated over here from the Rumors thread) but has anyone else been considering dropping the immolator dominions ( 4x melta) and running them either footslog or full 9-10 squad in a rhino ( im trying to get over Repressor use...sore subject). I say this assuming the 'no vanguard move in transport' is now a thing and not FAQ'd of course.

ERJAK wrote:

I disagree, if you're not using it on the BEST, you shouldn't be using it. You were right to leave out morale and denies, those are inefficient uses, even in a good miracle dice system, given the myriad of better ways there are to deal with morale and psykers.

Can and SHOULD are two different things- i think we can both agree on that. regardless, IF there's an faq/errata, i do wonder what this books gonna look like after this one.


as to the comment about immolators? my prospective build dropped them already, but im waiting to see about this warhammer legends thing before i lay my hopes of actually using the fw book i bought to complete rest, because there may yet be a use for repressors. I am not happy paying extra on these heavy bolters they want to put on everything though.

Bdrone wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

I disagree, if you're not using it on the BEST, you shouldn't be using it. You were right to leave out morale and denies, those are inefficient uses, even in a good miracle dice system, given the myriad of better ways there are to deal with morale and psykers.

Can and SHOULD are two different things- i think we can both agree on that. regardless, IF there's an faq/errata, i do wonder what this books gonna look like after this one.


as to the comment about immolators? my prospective build dropped them already, but im waiting to see about this warhammer legends thing before i lay my hopes of actually using the fw book i bought to complete rest, because there may yet be a use for repressors. I am not happy paying extra on these heavy bolters they want to put on everything though.

Yes, i also am not pleased I have to remodel a vehicle in order to make it WYSIWYG because of a new heavy bolter...and also pay points for something i wasn't wishing i had before. Frankly, the models are great and all but did they have to partially invalidate the older models in the process? I suppose i already know the rational behind it. Does anyone know if the upgrade is optional?

My theory craft has 5 arcoflaggelents w/ priest in the immolator now and a full dominion squad in the rhino ( only have 1 of each). Maybe drop one and add a character. Argent shroud trait has me considering multimelta/heavy bolter on immolator though, which is nice. Thing is wondering if anyone can help with the math on this. Would it be better to run 3 melta 1 flamer and use the Holy trinity strategem to get +1 to wound, while also saving some points...or just run 4x melta and save those CP's. Might be worth it as at first Im only running sisters to be the hammer to my guard's anvil, and my guard have a tough time using all their Cps honestly.

From what i know, the heavy bolter is not optional at all. it's built in over what use to be a stormbolter if i recall.

personally i don't trust the holy trinity strategem since it means i have to get well within charge radius of my enemy, though if the options not gone id combi-melta and go for the 5 personally at least until i sorted out if it was worth it.

That said, all i have is theory. i haven't had a game in sometime nor did i get to use my sisters before this game spell happened. hopefully everyone else here has at least had more actual gameplay experience than i do and can help you more on such a concept. kinda wish i had taken more time to look at guard or custodes myself.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Bdrone wrote:
even though i don't like Zephyrim, that ability to deepstrike with pennant to spot charges is great.

the canoness CAN get pretty impressive in melee now. that said.. i still wish you could jump pack her.

or that mega pulpit coulda been catacomb command barge style at least instead of an Order locked character.

Can we talk about melee Canonesses? I thought they were better with Eviscerators, and are worse off now that they lack them. Can you help me figure out how to make them better? Is the regular Relic sword that good?

Well, I can take a Bloody Rose Canoness with Righteous Rage and the relic chainsaw and do some real hurt.

I can also take one with the Blade of Admonition, and maybe also the second warlord trait for Bloody Rose's unique one for extra attacks. I intend to use at least the former, and the latter probably without a warlord trait.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Seraphim with dual inferno pistols worth burning 2 CP for +6 range and reroll 1's to hit on the turn they deep strike in? 4 melta re-rolling 1's might be worth it. Also it might be 2 cps for the reroll so maybe not. Info is from 1d4chan tactica. Also, can Seraphim take 4 special weapons if squad size is 10 in new codex? My hunch says no...

Also, sorry if either of these things have already been discussed ( just migrated over here from the Rumors thread) but has anyone else been considering dropping the immolator dominions ( 4x melta) and running them either footslog or full 9-10 squad in a rhino ( im trying to get over Repressor use...sore subject). I say this assuming the 'no vanguard move in transport' is now a thing and not FAQ'd of course.

the only strat that gives reroll 1s to hit is the OOML specific strat but a character needs to die first. 1d4chans page is a mix of old and new rules, serephim can only have 2 special even with 10. the repressor nerf is fine, still useful with the right list but not the auto include in every list.

"Miracle Dice" isn't the only army rule we get.

There are ways to buff it, and if you want you can build your entire army around the mechanic. I don't plan on that, but it's possible, and I suspect it'd be a pretty cool build honestly.

When unupgraded/unbuilt-around, it's fairly naff. Still clutch in certain situations, but I wouldn't build around it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Bdrone wrote:
even though i don't like Zephyrim, that ability to deepstrike with pennant to spot charges is great.

the canoness CAN get pretty impressive in melee now. that said.. i still wish you could jump pack her.

or that mega pulpit coulda been catacomb command barge style at least instead of an Order locked character.

Can we talk about melee Canonesses? I thought they were better with Eviscerators, and are worse off now that they lack them. Can you help me figure out how to make them better? Is the regular Relic sword that good?

Well, I can take a Bloody Rose Canoness with Righteous Rage and the relic chainsaw and do some real hurt.

I can also take one with the Blade of Admonition, and maybe also the second warlord trait for Bloody Rose's unique one for extra attacks. I intend to use at least the former, and the latter probably without a warlord trait.

Canoness is quite killy even if you dont give them a relic, they have a new weapon called a Blessed blade for 9 pts, str+2 ap-3 damage D3


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Miracle Dice" isn't the only army rule we get.

There are ways to buff it, and if you want you can build your entire army around the mechanic. I don't plan on that, but it's possible, and I suspect it'd be a pretty cool build honestly.

When unupgraded/unbuilt-around, it's fairly naff. Still clutch in certain situations, but I wouldn't build around it.

its true the Sacred rites can be amazing, the passion was for melee

I'm pretty sure I figured it out: Partially.

Fast dice actually DOES RAW override rolling each shot individually.

Fast dice section: "The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time.However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time,
making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate."

Combines with: "Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. "

To create a situation where all attacks are considered be part of the same roll until at least the allocation step, where it gets muddy again. The wounds are allocated one at a time, but I don't know if that makes them seperate rolls at that point because, again GW never defined what a 'roll' is.

So with even the strictest possible RAW interpretation you can absolutely use unlimited miracle dice in To Hit and To Wound rolls.

I'm not giving up on my Immolator Carnifex. It's points went up and its HB ia actively useless., but with a CP, it's mortal wounds when it dies and no one likes charging 12 inch heavy flamers.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Miracle Dice" isn't the only army rule we get.

There are ways to buff it, and if you want you can build your entire army around the mechanic. I don't plan on that, but it's possible, and I suspect it'd be a pretty cool build honestly.

When unupgraded/unbuilt-around, it's fairly naff. Still clutch in certain situations, but I wouldn't build around it.

You have miracle dice, zealot, and the 6++ invul.

The 'fail at unbinding a psychic power' ability is barely worth mentioning and sacred rites...you wanna talk naff, there's your naff. You have to give up allies to get 1 extra attack every 2 canonesses, and that's the good one.

ERJAK wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Miracle Dice" isn't the only army rule we get.

There are ways to buff it, and if you want you can build your entire army around the mechanic. I don't plan on that, but it's possible, and I suspect it'd be a pretty cool build honestly.

When unupgraded/unbuilt-around, it's fairly naff. Still clutch in certain situations, but I wouldn't build around it.

You have miracle dice, zealot, and the 6++ invul.

The 'fail at unbinding a psychic power' ability is barely worth mentioning and sacred rites...you wanna talk naff, there's your naff. You have to give up allies to get 1 extra attack every 2 canonesses, and that's the good one.

you can pick your sacred rites at the beginning of the game so you can tailor them to your needs, Hey that guy has a ton of psycic powers lemmy take this rite to add +3 to my deny roll bam you can shut down powers very reliably. also almost all sisters models get rites even vehicles the only sororitas unit that doesn't is mortifiers. the passion is huge for melee units, a 8 woman bloody rose repentia squad has 24 attacks on the charge hitting on 4+ and rerolls all hits, with passion they will get 24+ hits compared to about 16 without it.

I just re-read sacred rites, and until now i didn't realize it doesn't work on non-sisters ministorum units, because none of them have that keyword.

.... I'm actually substantially aggrivated by this realization.

Bdrone wrote:
I just re-read sacred rites, and until now i didn't realize it doesn't work on non-sisters ministorum units, because none of them have that keyword.

.... I'm actually substantially aggrivated by this realization.

im sure its a balancing factor as most of the non sisters units are melee and have a ton of attacks

Thing is, i was thinking of using hand of the emperor and thinking it may help those units get places in my argent shroud build. other than the rhino the arcos are sitting in, thats not even the case.

and i get even less out of the passion than i gave it credit for, because im not going bloody rose and only sister models benefit anyway.

pure ministorum actually lost an HQ, and got an alt-unit, with no synergy to the rest of the codex they are in.

...fine.

ERJAK wrote:
I'm pretty sure I figured it out: Partially.

Fast dice actually DOES RAW override rolling each shot individually.

Fast dice section: "The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time.However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time,
making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate."

Combines with: "Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. "

To create a situation where all attacks are considered be part of the same roll until at least the allocation step, where it gets muddy again. The wounds are allocated one at a time, but I don't know if that makes them seperate rolls at that point because, again GW never defined what a 'roll' is.

So with even the strictest possible RAW interpretation you can absolutely use unlimited miracle dice in To Hit and To Wound rolls.

Fast dice rolling does not apply to damage and saves. You forgot to keep reading and actually absorb the information before you jumped to a conclusion again. Removed

Your hope that it would apply to damage rolls returns this to DOA now, in your mind, right? It's hard to keep track of what ridiculous hyperbolic nonsense you're going on about.

"If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate."

Removed

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Bdrone wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

I disagree, if you're not using it on the BEST, you shouldn't be using it. You were right to leave out morale and denies, those are inefficient uses, even in a good miracle dice system, given the myriad of better ways there are to deal with morale and psykers.

Can and SHOULD are two different things- i think we can both agree on that. regardless, IF there's an faq/errata, i do wonder what this books gonna look like after this one.


as to the comment about immolators? my prospective build dropped them already, but im waiting to see about this warhammer legends thing before i lay my hopes of actually using the fw book i bought to complete rest, because there may yet be a use for repressors. I am not happy paying extra on these heavy bolters they want to put on everything though.

l

My theory craft has 5 arcoflaggelents w/ priest in the immolator now and a full dominion squad in the rhino ( only have 1 of each). Maybe drop one and add a character. Argent shroud trait has me considering multimelta/heavy bolter on immolator though, which is nice. Thing is wondering if anyone can help with the math on this. Would it be better to run 3 melta 1 flamer and use the Holy trinity strategem to get +1 to wound, while also saving some points...or just run 4x melta and save those CP's. Might be worth it as at first Im only running sisters to be the hammer to my guard's anvil, and my guard have a tough time using all their Cps honestly.

I've run acros in various transports in most of my 8th games and it works great. Even if it blows up between the Priest and Extremis Trigger you only need like two of them to get into combat to make a horrible mess.

Rhino rushing squads of Ministorum elite melee units into enemy lines is a really fun army build I would recommend everyone try at least once.

Okay I think I nailed it down. I plan for a heavy infantry melee Detachment of sisters. Anyone got good Tipps on that one? Besides suicidal cannoness? ^^

Iago40k wrote:
Omay I think I nailed it down. I plan for a heavy infantry melee Detachment of sisters. Anyone got good Tipps on that one? Besides suicidal cannoness? ^^

Well, Bloody Rose is probably the way to go there. They have a melee focused Conviction, an excellent melee relic, a +1 to wound melee strategem, and a melee Warlord trait.

But you don't 100% need to go with them. The 'generic' Blade of Admonition is also a very good melee relic, Righteous Rage is a good generic melee warlord trait. You can take an Imagifier to get +1S, and priests to get +1A, Zephyrim can drop in and give units a reroll on charge distances. So there's a lot of generic support. I'm personally considering melee units in Martyred Lady: if they kill my gals on overwatch, I get +1 to hit in melee.

Unit-wise you're looking at Repentia, Zephyrim, and Arco-Flagellants are the melee troops, with Mortifiers and Penitent Engines as well. It's worth noting that Arcos, Mortifiers and Penitents do not benefit from Order Convictions, Sacred Rites or Acts of Faith, but they can put out a mental amount of attacks. As another highly left-field choice, Bloody Rose Celestians near a Priest will have 4 attacks each, likely rerolling all misses. Only S3 (4 with Imagifier), but a lot of output.

In terms of Sacred Rites, Light of the Emperor (+1 to advances and charges), The Passion (exploding 6s on melee attacks), and Spirit of the Martyr (5+ to shoot once or melee attack once when destroyed) are all good options.

The MD thing has been submitted for FAQ. I know someone on the FAQ team and he asked me if I saw anything wonky. I told him the MD rules are not clear.

Rynner wrote:
The MD thing has been submitted for FAQ. I know someone on the FAQ team and he asked me if I saw anything wonky. I told him the MD rules are not clear.

Can you pester him about the Dominions giving scout to transports thing too please.

Iago40k wrote:
Okay I think I nailed it down. I plan for a heavy infantry melee Detachment of sisters. Anyone got good Tipps on that one? Besides suicidal cannoness? ^^

I intend to have Bloody Rose Repentia in transport, backed up by a priest and a imagifier and maybe a Mistress. One warlord trait will probably be the +1 invulnerable save [the other will be Righteous Rage] and a following Celestine would buff them to be fairly tough for once their out.

Theoretically, I'd also consider an Argent Shroud canoness for the heroic interventions and auto-fight first, but then I'd need a separate car for her to ride in. I will probably also have a Wyvern or Basilisk in the list somewhere to shut down overwatch.

Rynner wrote:
The MD thing has been submitted for FAQ. I know someone on the FAQ team and he asked me if I saw anything wonky. I told him the MD rules are not clear.

They are though.

 Sim-Life wrote:
They are though.

A squad of sisters declare an attack. They quick-roll 5 to-hit dice, how many can be replaced with miracle dice?

IanVanCheese wrote:

Rynner wrote:
The MD thing has been submitted for FAQ. I know someone on the FAQ team and he asked me if I saw anything wonky. I told him the MD rules are not clear.

Can you pester him about the Dominions giving scout to transports thing too please.

I'm not sure his role works like that, his job is make sure the rules make sense, not that they are good.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Rynner wrote:
The MD thing has been submitted for FAQ. I know someone on the FAQ team and he asked me if I saw anything wonky. I told him the MD rules are not clear.

They are though.

No they are not. Even in this thread we can't settle on how many dice you can replace. I think it's as many MD as you have/want for a roll (hit/wound/saves/damge/etc...) and some people here think it's just one no matter what. It needs to be FAQd so we can agree on how it works.

A.T. wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
They are though.

A squad of sisters declare an attack. They quick-roll 5 to-hit dice, how many can be replaced with miracle dice?

None if you've already rolled them, one if you declare beforehand. Attacks are resolved one at a time.

I'm still really fuzzy on the MD situation. Hypothetical: the shooting phase. Unit A uses a MD on a reroll to hit for one of it's guns. At this point, no other until can use a MD this phase, correct?

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm still really fuzzy on the MD situation. Hypothetical: the shooting phase. Unit A uses a MD on a reroll to hit for one of it's guns. At this point, no other until can use a MD this phase, correct?

A MD can't be used on a re-roll, as you must declare it before seeing the result of a roll (and a re-roll, obviously, has already had its result seen once). You must declare it before the roll is made.

Furthermore, yes, no further MD can be used that phase - unless you have a rule that says otherwise, like a 5pt Simulacrum in your squad as the most basic example.

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm still really fuzzy on the MD situation. Hypothetical: the shooting phase. Unit A uses a MD on a reroll to hit for one of it's guns. At this point, no other until can use a MD this phase, correct?

A MD can't be used on a re-roll, as you must declare it before seeing the result of a roll (and a re-roll, obviously, has already had its result seen once). You must declare it before the roll is made.

Furthermore, yes, no further MD can be used that phase - unless you have a rule that says otherwise, like a 5pt Simulacrum in your squad as the most basic example.

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle.

Sorry, bad wording. I'm running on 7 hours sleep in the last 48. I got a newborn with a bad cold. I simply meant the unit uses the MD in place of the standard roll to hit, as they're supposed to.
So... we have to pay a 5 pt tax per unit in order to use more than 1 MD a phase, and no matter what it's never more than 1 vehicle? That's pretty underwhelming.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm still really fuzzy on the MD situation. Hypothetical: the shooting phase. Unit A uses a MD on a reroll to hit for one of it's guns. At this point, no other until can use a MD this phase, correct?

A MD can't be used on a re-roll, as you must declare it before seeing the result of a roll (and a re-roll, obviously, has already had its result seen once). You must declare it before the roll is made.

Furthermore, yes, no further MD can be used that phase - unless you have a rule that says otherwise, like a 5pt Simulacrum in your squad as the most basic example.

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle.

It depends on your army, if you dont have the md generation to support it i wouldnt want to take a simulacrum on every squad. Foot sisters are better if you build your army that way, prob wouldn’t want your stuff on foot if your heavy melee.