Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Rynner wrote:
Well thats something. I think theres a good build in there with Sacred Rose and Bloody Rose.

idk, sacred rose and Ebon chalice seem to have the worst convictions and sacred doesn't have Ebon Chalice's baller WT and Stratagem to make up for it(unless you run a ton of heavy bolters.)

Er sorry I meant Valorous Heart.

balmong7 wrote:
So I'm considering ordering some of the made to order inquisitors that they have this week. I figure Confessor Kyrinov is a must. But are any of the inquisitors or demonhost models good to either add into a sister's force with the new rules or just to use as proxies for other models?

I plan on throwing in either Greyfax or karamazov if i can spare the points.

Greyfax would give me 2 +1 deny's and can snipe casters with a -1ap D3 bolter, mostly likely with terrify to shut off overwatch

Karamazov seems fun with a penitent heavy list, while hes slower, he does have just enough wounds to still have character protection and an assault 30" multi melta

So how about a double Battalion of rear guard Valorous Heart with Exorcists, Retributers, and screening troops, and a forward element of Bloody Rose Seraphim and Dominions plus mechanized troops? What loadout for 1 Canoness in the back and 2 in the front? Relics?

This may be where I lean for a few early games. I'm getting reasonably pumped for this release!

If your core is double Batallion I think a strong case could be made for taking the Battle Sanctum as your third Detachment. 50 points for cover exactly where you want it, plus free MD, seems exactly the sort of thing backfield Retributors and Canoness would like.

VH makes for a sturdy backline for sure. I'd stick a Dialogus with them, so the Exorcists could get some slightly improved dice. Backline Canoness... Not sure, depends how much you're going to lean on the MD mechanic. Litanies and Beacon of Faith are a nice little support combo.

The frontline ones; if they're BR then you're going combat. Chainsword + Brazier of Holy Fire on one so you can relic to the murder chainsword or the Eternal Flame if needed. Probably either a combat WL trait or just good old Indomitable Belief.

I think the Dominions would get more from being Valorous Heart than Bloody Rose, although you're less likely to be in the reroll 1's aura of the Canoness.

With the Bloody Rose Seraphim, I've been wondering about just running an extra unit with just the Bolt Pistols. A unit of 5 can output 20 S4 AP-1 shots for 55 points and 1CP. Seems like some excellent value.

 MacPhail wrote:
So how about a double Battalion of rear guard Valorous Heart with Exorcists, Retributers, and screening troops, and a forward element of Bloody Rose Seraphim and Dominions plus mechanized troops? What loadout for 1 Canoness in the back and 2 in the front? Relics?

This may be where I lean for a few early games. I'm getting reasonably pumped for this release!

I wouldn't take dominions at all unless they give them their transport scout back. There's no situation where retributors wouldn't accomplish the same goal better(if at a price premium)

But if I was doing a beer and pretzels game with dominions, I still wouldn't take them BR, Argent shroud is the only real way to make them useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rynner wrote:
Er sorry I meant Valorous Heart.

Valorous heart is probably the all around best one.

150+ battle sisters with a 4++ that is now basically unsnipable and immunity to rend -2 is probably our only truly 'competitive' build.

Apologies gentlemen - I currently do not have possession of the Sisters box.

Turns out the "big package" he was delivered was in fact, a load of 40k books. Meh. Another week to wait!

You're thinking too mono there ERJAK, the real strength lies in mixing the Orders.

And Dominions with Storm Bolters are still the best unit to use Blessed Bolts on. It's a unit that can start the match in rapid fire range.

Lemondish wrote:
You're thinking too mono there ERJAK, the real strength lies in mixing the Orders.

And Dominions with Storm Bolters are still the best unit to use Blessed Bolts on. It's a unit that can start the match in rapid fire range.

While that's a good point, without a vehicle to protect them, you are gambling quite a bit on getting first turn by taking them. They're a really underwhelming squad if you don't close down to rapid fire with your vanguard.

The reason I think of Pure or almost pure valorous heart (a small outrider of Bloody Rose Seraphim is never a bad buy) is likely to be our most competitive setup is because...well, we need to live more than we need to kill.

Mixing the orders is of course more efficient for killing the enemy. Valorous heart for the anvil, argent shroud or Bloody rose for the hammer, OoML to fuel your dice pool,etc. The problem is, that there aren't very many top end armies out there we can kill faster than they kill us if we start investing in our offense. We just don't have the math behind us to go blow for blow against armies like space marines, or flyer spam, or drone party, or any of the other crazy skew lists that are out there.

If you want to have a rip-roaring good time winning a locals event, then there are actually a number of very fun, reasonably powerful builds you can make playing mix and match with the orders.

If you're trying to get top 32 or top 16 at LVO, I personally think that the best strategy is to use Seraphim and or Exorcists to cut out their dedicated anti-infantry/sniping, and then frustrate the hell out of them with a legion of unkillable battle sisters, preferably in cover. Seriously, they'd need AP -3 just to NOT give us a 2+ save.

I understand that this is all theory because nobody seems to have played any competitive games, but I don't think anybody in this thread is ever in a million years going to select sisters if they legitimately want to have a shot at finishing top 16 at LVO. Part of attending tournaments is knowing what you're going to face, and while sisters look pretty fun and decently competitive, they are not a Marine hard counter on the face.

Players looking to place learned long ago that if you want to win you will absolutely need to abandon any attachment to a faction. Full mono Valorous Heart is great, and you might actually be right about it being the better choice for sisters, but it's no codex marine list.

Lemondish wrote:
I understand that this is all theory because nobody seems to have played many competitive games, but I don't think anybody in this thread is ever in a million years going to select sisters if they legitimately want to have a shot at finishing top 16 at LVO. Part of attending tournaments is knowing what you're going to face, and while sisters look pretty fun and decently competitive, they are not a Marine hard counter.

Players looking to place learned long ago that if you want to win you will absolutely need to abandon any attachment to a faction.

You say that, but an absolute ton of marine firepower is Ap-1/Ap-2. Outside Leviathans, basically all of it actually. The ability to just shrug that is pretty damn useful. I think we might have some good counters to the standard marine builds. We'll have to see though. Snipers obviously ruins our Imagifiers and marines have the best snipers out there atm.

ERJAK wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
So how about a double Battalion of rear guard Valorous Heart with Exorcists, Retributers, and screening troops, and a forward element of Bloody Rose Seraphim and Dominions plus mechanized troops? What loadout for 1 Canoness in the back and 2 in the front? Relics?

This may be where I lean for a few early games. I'm getting reasonably pumped for this release!

I wouldn't take dominions at all unless they give them their transport scout back. There's no situation where retributors wouldn't accomplish the same goal better(if at a price premium)

But if I was doing a beer and pretzels game with dominions, I still wouldn't take them BR, Argent shroud is the only real way to make them useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rynner wrote:
Er sorry I meant Valorous Heart.

Valorous heart is probably the all around best one.

150+ battle sisters with a 4++ that is now basically unsnipable and immunity to rend -2 is probably our only truly 'competitive' build.

I don't know about that. That didn't work that well for me AT LVO last year.

IanVanCheese wrote:

You say that, but an absolute ton of marine firepower is Ap-1/Ap-2. Outside Leviathans, basically all of it actually. The ability to just shrug that is pretty damn useful. I think we might have some good counters to the standard marine builds. We'll have to see though. Snipers obviously ruins our Imagifiers and marines have the best snipers out there atm.

Marine snipers also punch at AP-3 turn one, or all game if they're an IF or IH player.

Amusingly, AP3 is when enhanced invul traits start taking effect, making it a quite amusing scenario
AP1 and AP2 does nothing at all, AP3 or better are hitting against the invuls.
Either way, you got partial negation of what your enemy has paid for.

So it seems to me that if only some of your models are VH, the enemy's AP -1 and AP -2 fire will just focus the others first, which kind of works against mixed order lists. The only thing that somewhat counters that is getting rerollable 4++ on Seraphim/Zephyrim which is just better than 3+ anyway.

IanVanCheese wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I understand that this is all theory because nobody seems to have played many competitive games, but I don't think anybody in this thread is ever in a million years going to select sisters if they legitimately want to have a shot at finishing top 16 at LVO. Part of attending tournaments is knowing what you're going to face, and while sisters look pretty fun and decently competitive, they are not a Marine hard counter.

Players looking to place learned long ago that if you want to win you will absolutely need to abandon any attachment to a faction.

You say that, but an absolute ton of marine firepower is Ap-1/Ap-2. Outside Leviathans, basically all of it actually. The ability to just shrug that is pretty damn useful. I think we might have some good counters to the standard marine builds. We'll have to see though. Snipers obviously ruins our Imagifiers and marines have the best snipers out there atm.

I think I wasn't clear. I agree that it's useful, especially against Marines.

I do not agree that it is necessary for your entire army to be Valorous Heart for this force to be effective. I think there is opportunity for a mixed force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:
So it seems to me that if only some of your models are VH, the enemy's AP -1 and AP -2 fire will just focus the others first, which kind of works against mixed order lists. The only thing that somewhat counters that is getting rerollable 4++ on Seraphim/Zephyrim which is just better than 3+ anyway.

I'm not sure that's quite the negative you've suggested. If your opponent has to redistribute shooting to try and maximize, then you've removed choice. Take advantage of that.

IanVanCheese wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I understand that this is all theory because nobody seems to have played many competitive games, but I don't think anybody in this thread is ever in a million years going to select sisters if they legitimately want to have a shot at finishing top 16 at LVO. Part of attending tournaments is knowing what you're going to face, and while sisters look pretty fun and decently competitive, they are not a Marine hard counter.

Players looking to place learned long ago that if you want to win you will absolutely need to abandon any attachment to a faction.

You say that, but an absolute ton of marine firepower is Ap-1/Ap-2. Outside Leviathans, basically all of it actually. The ability to just shrug that is pretty damn useful. I think we might have some good counters to the standard marine builds. We'll have to see though. Snipers obviously ruins our Imagifiers and marines have the best snipers out there atm.

We've got a Resurrect strategem that can bring back those Imagifiers. Plus Celestians, who I think are pretty good value if you're actually going to use their abilities.

Hoc Est Bellum wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I understand that this is all theory because nobody seems to have played many competitive games, but I don't think anybody in this thread is ever in a million years going to select sisters if they legitimately want to have a shot at finishing top 16 at LVO. Part of attending tournaments is knowing what you're going to face, and while sisters look pretty fun and decently competitive, they are not a Marine hard counter.

Players looking to place learned long ago that if you want to win you will absolutely need to abandon any attachment to a faction.

You say that, but an absolute ton of marine firepower is Ap-1/Ap-2. Outside Leviathans, basically all of it actually. The ability to just shrug that is pretty damn useful. I think we might have some good counters to the standard marine builds. We'll have to see though. Snipers obviously ruins our Imagifiers and marines have the best snipers out there atm.

We've got a Resurrect strategem that can bring back those Imagifiers. Plus Celestians, who I think are pretty good value if you're actually going to use their abilities.

Thankfully the Imagifier has the <ORDER> keyword, as well. Poor Triumph, Celestine, Dialogus, and Hospitalier aren't important enough to have bodyguards :(

Lemondish wrote:
Thankfully the Imagifier has the <ORDER> keyword, as well. Poor Triumph, Celestine, Dialogus, and Hospitalier aren't important enough to have bodyguards :(

The triumph is it's own bodyguard. That's why six of the little meatshields die when hit by a lascannon rather than just one.

IanVanCheese wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I understand that this is all theory because nobody seems to have played many competitive games, but I don't think anybody in this thread is ever in a million years going to select sisters if they legitimately want to have a shot at finishing top 16 at LVO. Part of attending tournaments is knowing what you're going to face, and while sisters look pretty fun and decently competitive, they are not a Marine hard counter.

Players looking to place learned long ago that if you want to win you will absolutely need to abandon any attachment to a faction.

You say that, but an absolute ton of marine firepower is Ap-1/Ap-2. Outside Leviathans, basically all of it actually. The ability to just shrug that is pretty damn useful. I think we might have some good counters to the standard marine builds. We'll have to see though. Snipers obviously ruins our Imagifiers and marines have the best snipers out there atm.

He is right
And there's a better reason for that than your post.

Its just sisters can't table people, thats it
at ITC, you need to score max points, usually by tabling your opponent in 2-3 turns, sisters aren't capable of doing that.
At LVO, Adepticon, ect. You can win every game and still not make the top 16 because you aren't grinding your opponents into dust so you aren't scoring well enough.

Sisters will win games, a lot of games in the current meta, but they probably wont win them with a wide enough margin to get to the top round ot tables, they win by not losing, not win by obliterating everything in their path.

The fun part is that just having a sisters player on the other side of the table pretty much guarantees that /you/ wont get to the top 16 either, because you sure aren't tabling a 150 model valorous heart list unless you have some real tricks to get rid of the -1ap auras with celestians backing them up

I think thats about right for how Sisters work. I didn't lose a game at Michigan (I tied game 5 due to time) but only finished 9th because I couldn't win big enough, I could only manage to squeak out wins. Sisters tend to win through attrition and holding on, rather than really killing your opponent.

Losing the 4++ on tanks hurts a lot, as does the 3++ on Seraphim. I'm not sure ignoring ap -1/-2 makes up for it overall. It might but Repulsor Executioner's and Heavy Laser Destroyers will eat a tank turn now, making Exorcists really fragile and a 170 point liability per tank in those match ups. With a 4++ on them at least gave you a chance to keep them alive, they didn't hit as hard, but you weren't killing an IH Repulsor Executioner before and doing so now isn't exactly guaranteed either.

Rynner wrote:
I think thats about right for how Sisters work. I didn't lose a game at Michigan (I tied game 5 due to time) but only finished 9th because I couldn't win big enough, I could only manage to squeak out wins. Sisters tend to win through attrition and holding on, rather than really killing your opponent.

Losing the 4++ on tanks hurts a lot, as does the 3++ on Seraphim. I'm not sure ignoring ap -1/-2 makes up for it overall. It might but Repulsor Executioner's and Heavy Laser Destroyers will eat a tank turn now, making Exorcists really fragile and a 170 point liability per tank in those match ups. With a 4++ on them at least gave you a chance to keep them alive, they didn't hit as hard, but you weren't killing an IH Repulsor Executioner before and doing so now isn't exactly guaranteed either.

Right, losing the 4++ on tanks and the exo point boost hurts A LOT. That was your main alpha strike to start tipping the game in your favor, I feel like tanks are now too expensive to really run a mech list.

Ignoring ap 1/2 gets absurd when you look at how much firepower that you don't want to see vs your horde list is ap 1/2 and how easily you can drop a unit into cover and have 9-10pt tzeentch terminators.

I'm going to try it but I'm personally having a hard time justifying taking Exorcists with the Marine Meta and their points hike. If Marines get toned down in CA then I could see them being worth more. I'm also having a hard time justifying Repetina and Flagents (both of which look amazing) because they need a ride. Taking 1-2 Rhinos and the rest just infantry is also an awful idea.

I think you right on the 2+ cover save vs most things. It's just miserable and boring to play. At least it will be cheaper to build than it was in all pewter?

Rynner wrote:
Taking 1-2 Rhinos and the rest just infantry is also an awful idea.

Thats exactly the problem sisters have, if you take just one or two tanks, they will catch 100% of the anti tank, same issue the triumph has

Okay, so we're talking Valorous Heart for the backfield of Exorcists and Retributers, with maybe a Beacon Canoness with Rod, a Stoic Imagifier, and a Dialogus for a pretty solid castle.

For a forward element, Bloody Rose Seraphim/Zephyrim to make good use of the -1 AP pistols and extra attack, probably with a transport or two racing to deliver Canoness(es) (Indomitable Belief + Book of St. L for a big invuln radius / Blade of Admonition / BR relic chainsword), Warrior Imagifier (+1 S), Preacher, and maybe some Celestians to keep those auras up and running. If Celestine goes along (and if I've got this right) you've got 3+/4++ Zepyrhrim that hit at S4 and can add a +1 to Wound strat, and 3+/3++ Seraphim that nuke something on the way down and then enjoy -1AP on all their assorted pistols.

If that all sounds resonable... where do I put the other units I want to run? Based on my current collection (all Sororitas-- I'm going to add a plastic unit at a time, so no 3x3 Mortifiers or huge piles of Arcos or Repentia at the start for me), I'll add Dominions (mechanized melta for a beta strike? foot stormbolters for a forward firebase?), BSS (doubled up in Rhinos? heavy flamer/melta? 2x stormbolter? bolter blob?), heavy flamer Retributers (8x heavy flamers in a Rhino?)

Which units are best optimized by which Orders? Should I fill one of the two mentioned above into a Brigade or try for a third Battalion with a third Order... a forward screen of MSU Martyred Lady to farm Miracle Dice?

Everyone saying that the whole ignoring -2 AP playstyle will be boring, why?

You don't need to castle, you can fit three Imagifiers in the list comfortably and then you've got three bubbles of ignoreing Ap-2 that you can move about the board. I'm not planning a castle at all, I'm looking at this from a board control angle. They can't shift my ladies and if they want to come closer, they run into flamers/melta for days.

Valorous Heart won't have to be a big boring castle, nor do I think it's optimal playstyle will be.

Rynner wrote:
I think thats about right for how Sisters work. I didn't lose a game at Michigan (I tied game 5 due to time) but only finished 9th because I couldn't win big enough, I could only manage to squeak out wins. Sisters tend to win through attrition and holding on, rather than really killing your opponent.

Losing the 4++ on tanks hurts a lot, as does the 3++ on Seraphim. I'm not sure ignoring ap -1/-2 makes up for it overall. It might but Repulsor Executioner's and Heavy Laser Destroyers will eat a tank turn now, making Exorcists really fragile and a 170 point liability per tank in those match ups. With a 4++ on them at least gave you a chance to keep them alive, they didn't hit as hard, but you weren't killing an IH Repulsor Executioner before and doing so now isn't exactly guaranteed either.

Nobody's taking Executioners anymore since they pop like balloons now (one exorcist with decent miracle dice will waste it in a turn) and you can't afford to have a 300+ point target of opportunity in the IH mirror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Everyone saying that the whole ignoring -2 AP playstyle will be boring, why?

You don't need to castle, you can fit three Imagifiers in the list comfortably and then you've got three bubbles of ignoring Ap-2 that you can move about the board. I'm not planning a castle at all, I'm looking at this from a board control angle. They can't shift my ladies and if they want to come closer, they run into flamers/melta for days.

Valorous Heart won't have to be a big boring castle, nor do I think it's optimal playstyle will be.

It's boring because you just spiderweb out onto objectives and then pass turns until the game's over. You're not going to kill but maybe 500pts of your opponent's army and their turns are so irrelevant that you honestly don't even need to stick around for them. Also, just because a castle takes up 3/4ths of the board doesn't make it not a castle.

RepEx's can still get a 5++ with the dread. It's very common in the Chicago Land area. I'm hoping that changes but it's very much a thing and it's still very good.

I agree with you on the Castle parts of it. You don't even need 3x Imaginers, just one and the +3" aura relic. I think the new Imaginer is on a 40 so her range is huge!

 MacPhail wrote:
Okay, so we're talking Valorous Heart for the backfield of Exorcists and Retributers, with maybe a Beacon Canoness with Rod, a Stoic Imagifier, and a Dialogus for a pretty solid castle.

I'm not sure about the value of a dialogus in the back line, maybe put it back there to start for your alpha strike so the melta tributors can modify their faith dice rolls since you wont have a ton of dice yet, but after that I think it can comfortably move up with the rest.

 Grundz wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Okay, so we're talking Valorous Heart for the backfield of Exorcists and Retributers, with maybe a Beacon Canoness with Rod, a Stoic Imagifier, and a Dialogus for a pretty solid castle.

I'm not sure about the value of a dialogus in the back line, maybe put it back there to start for your alpha strike so the melta tributors can modify their faith dice rolls since you wont have a ton of dice yet, but after that I think it can comfortably move up with the rest.

I guess it's more that we'll want one somewhere... I was thinking one in the rear could modify middling MDs into something worth using on early damage, saving actual MD 5s and 6s for the forward elements later in the game. But I don't have my head around quite how fast they'll come and go...