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 Trickstick wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?

Well, yes. That is kind of the point of percentages. You take 200 points of one and 200 points of the other, the 20% increase is going to hurt. Sure, it's only "1 point", but when it is repeated sixty times it adds up.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It is not "literally" the only troop choice in the codex.

I love how "literally" can also mean "figuratively" now. The evolution of language is fun!

It literally does mean figuratively in many dictionaries now! Usage determines language after all, not the other way around. As much as that fact perpetually irritates everyone.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?

Well, yes. That is kind of the point of percentages. You take 200 points of one and 200 points of the other, the 20% increase is going to hurt. Sure, it's only "1 point", but when it is repeated sixty times it adds up.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It is not "literally" the only troop choice in the codex.

I love how "literally" can also mean "figuratively" now. The evolution of language is fun!

Also, it's a 25% increase, not 20% :p

eldritchx wrote:
Also, it's a 25% increase, not 20% :p

I studied Maths... Yay!

Also, it's a 25% increase, not 20% :p

That does not make it any better.
Especially when we consider that R&H cultists which neither had access to stratagems nor traits and also had random LD also got the hike.

I mean maybee instead of hiking pts prices because certain stratagems are to cheap in cp they could change the CP prices? I mean has anyone ever seen the khonrate double fighting stratagem ever used?

I doubt it will change anything. They needed to buff CSM, not nerf cultists. As it stands the tourney meta lists won't change because Cultists are still able to get easy CP and be in a blob that can be buffed.

Wayniac wrote:
I doubt it will change anything. They needed to buff CSM, not nerf cultists. As it stands the tourney meta lists won't change because Cultists are still able to get easy CP and be in a blob that can be buffed.

The point where we will see Marines instead of cultists for CP is the point were a cultist is 7ppm.

I see the strats and traits arguments but R&H cultists got the same treatment.

 Eldarain wrote:
Access to easy Fearless, full rerolls to hit, +1 to wound, fire twice make them rather formidable.

Though Guardsmen should have taken a hit too.

Full rerolls to hit? Cadians with Fire On My Target
Fire Twice? First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!

Fearless? No true fearless for guard, but between cheap Commissars, max squad 10 (vs Cultists of up to 30), several stratagems. It's not as important to Guardsmen.

+1 To Wound? Cultists got them there. Guard don't have a way AFAIK

Loafing wrote:

Full rerolls to hit? Cadians with Fire On My Target

That does require a specific regiment, an order, and for the unit in question to remain stationary.

Loafing wrote:
Fire Twice? First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!

Well, they can fire Lasguns twice. The sergeant won't be firing twice, nor will any special or heavy weapons. It also requires an order (meaning you can't stack it with the above).


(I don't know how this compared to Cultists, as I don't know what the requirements are for their buffs. I'm just clarifying what IG squads need.)

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.

Which would be fine, except:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The bigger travesty is Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines are still 13 pts per model.

So Chaos Marines not getting a decrease means that Cultists will remain the de facto Troop for CSM. So your point about it being a way to limit Cultist Spam doesn't add up, save that CSM will now just take min-units, which isn't optimized to take advantage of those "bonuses" that make Cultists "better" then Guard Infantry.

That in itself is bad enough, but than you add Guard Infantry squads NOT getting an increase, while still remaining the superior unit and likewise used by Imperium Players to generate cheap CPs and the message from GW is very, very clear:
"Feth Chaos, feth regular Marines and long live Imperial Soup!"

-

Asmodios wrote:
Simple cultists get
1. Larger unit size- this is a massive boon for any unit that is primarily made to soak up danmage
2. Veterans of the long war
3. Guard “send in the next wave” got effectively removed from the game. Cultists still have theirs
4. -1 to hit
5. Go slaneesh and shoot twice with veterans of the long war
6. Because of the increased unit size every Colman’s point/ buff given to them is more efficient
7. Still have easy access to fearless

There is a reason 200+ cultist lists were a thing but not 200+ guard lists. If guard had access to all of the above you would see more then 32 in every list

This is the best summary. I'm still not sure IS should be 4, but I can deal.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
I see the strats and traits arguments but R&H cultists got the same treatment.

because feth R&H i guess.

Same with Ig veterans, they are now 5 ppm, have more special and heavy weapons options whilest disciples (R&H veteran equivalent) still costs 6 ppm, has less option per squad (1 special 1 hwt) random LS aswell as no traits.

Sidenote, even the malefic at 80pts since ca 17 remains unchanged. Meanwhile IG psykers are still only 40 pts, for the same profil and better psy powers.

I have to agree that it is frustrating to me to see a unit that's worse than Guardsmen, outs of specific builds, cost more than Guardsmen. And the specific builds that these models are in are not very good. Anything in this game is great when you stack rerolls on everything, +1's on everything, and "bring back at full strength" anything. That's a problem of the things that grant those abilities, and the scale of the game we play. Remember, we used to have Commissars that did the same thing. Now, Guardsmen are better without any support, and can still be supported! They also, in specific builds, get rerolls on their shots, and can get rerolls on their wounds. If anything, Guardsmen are better at their purpose within the generic strategy of the army they're in. They protect better shooting stuff from close combat (both in codex, and with allies). That's their primary job both with buffs, and without buffs. They have a secondary job of capturing objectives in a way that keeps close combat units away from your shooting, allowing your other strong stuff to move into better positions rather than potentially exposed or worse positioning in order to hold objective. Again, regardless of your "build" these are the jobs they're trying to do. The primary job of a unit of Fearless Cultists blob is to spread out and take up space, covering as many objectives as possible, and then when they die they get to come back once and do it again. They have a secondary job in preventing things from getting into close combat. Now, outside the specific build, we have your generic Cultists, without all those buffs. These Cultists' jobs are to capture objectives in a way that allows your other strong stuff to engage more effectively.

Now that I've identified their jobs, how good are they at them? We have some interesting comparisons:

#1 - Survivability of models:
Guardsmen; (1) Have a better save. (2) Have better Leadership. | buffs | (3) Can use a generic stratagem for +1 save. | (4) Can use a generic psychic power for +1 save (5) Can use a generic psychic power for -1 to hit.
Cultists; (no innate strengths of Guardsmen) | buffs | (1) Can have a legion-specific trait for -1 to hit in a common circumstance. (2a) Can use a Mark-specific psychic power for -1 to hit. (2b) Can use a Mark-specific psychic power for 5+ Feel No Paint. (3a) Can use a Mark-AND-Legion specific Psychic Power for +1T (Death Guard).

I think it's clear to say that Guardsmen are innately more survivable. With buffs, you can have Cultists be up to -2 to hit, while being T4, or you can make them -1 to hit with a 5+ FnP. However, I think if we're counting buffs, I'd have to give this to Guardsmen, because they can stack buffs to be a -1 to hit with a 2+ save (Psychic power, stratagem, psychic power, cover), plus these buffs are easier to get because they don't rely on being a specific Regiment, so are more generally achievable. Overall winner in this category are the Guard.

#2 - Survivability of units:
This is a hard one to quantify. On the one hand, if a large unit of cultists survives with just a couple models, you can get back a ton of models. On the other hand, you might not against a savy and/or lucky and/or Dark Eldar opponent. Guardsmen don't get to come back (at least, not at no reinforcement point cost), but multiple 10-man units are innately resistant to Ld losses. At the end of the day, I think it's a wash, but only so long as they were within very close cost-structures of each other. Of course, that's just for the Fearless Blob of Cultists. The regular cultists have far worse unit survivability because they have a worse Sv and Leadership, and large units then becomes a drawback, so you go for smaller units that depend on their Sv to survive, which is a t-shirt save for the Cultists.

#3 - Lethality;
Guardsmen; (1) Have more long-range weapon options (Plasma/Melta, and Heavy weapons). | buffs | (2a) Can reroll 1's with order. (2b) Certain regiments can reroll everything. (3) Generic relic offers chance to issue a secondary order to the same unit for either double shots, or reroll wounds, or shoot after falling back. (4) Have "Revenge for Cadia" stratagem to reroll all failed hits AND wounds without any other buffs. (5) Regiment-specific trait allows Guardsmen to be S4 in close combat.
Cultists; (1) Have more close-range weapon options (shotguns, close combat weapons). | buffs | (2a) Can reroll 1's with generic HQ aura. (2b) Certain legion with extremely expensive HQ has aura for reroll all failed hits. (3) Stratagem allows +1 to wound rolls. (4a) Mark-specific Cultists can fight again in close combat with 3-CP stratagem. (4b) Mark-and-Legion specific psychic power allows Cultists to be S4 in close combat. (5) Generic psychic power gives +1 to hit.

I'd tip this slightly towards the Guardsmen. I think the best-case scenario is better for the Cultists in having 4 attacks each (due to fight twice), and exploding 5's and 6's and 4's, 3's, or even 2's to wound, depending on the target. However, again, a lot of these require a lot of commitment and setup. Guardsmen can do many of the same things, but at range, and with far less setup.

Okay, I think we can say then that the two are pretty even in Unit Survivability, but only if we're talking about a specific Cultist build instead of the generic Guardsmen build. We can also say they're pretty close in lethality, with one excelling at range, and the other excelling in close. The main difference between the two is Model Survivability.


Now that we've identified where they're better/worse than each other at, we can answer to ourselves who is better at their jobs. I'd say that Guardsmen are better at their primary and secondary jobs than regular Cultists are at their only 1 job. I'd also say that generic Guardsmen are better at their primary and secondary jobs than Fearless Cultists are at their secondary job. However, Fearless Cultists are better at their Primary job than Guardsmen are at their Primary job. So, out of those 12 or so combinations where we are comparing effectiveness, Guardsmen seem to come out on top in most of the cases.

And for this, they cost 1 point less per model.

I don't like that.

Nope, GW went full crazy there.

The only thing I can see that makes sense is if there was some odd typing issue that caused someone to accidentally type the veterans as 5 points rather than the infantry squad, because neither the infantry at 4 nor the veteran at 5 makes a shred of sense.

I mean, infantry squads are, for quite a while now, in EVERY imperial army. they needed a nerf far more than cultists did.

It's clear now that GW is only using direct comparison between codices as a tertiary consideration. I disagree with this philosophy, but the proof is pretty undeniable.

 vipoid wrote:


That does require a specific regiment, an order, and for the unit in question to remain stationary.

Well, they can fire Lasguns twice. The sergeant won't be firing twice, nor will any special or heavy weapons. It also requires an order (meaning you can't stack it with the above).

Chaos' full reroll to hit is BLACK LEGION only. So subfaction only is fair game

The only guns Cultists CAN take are Autoguns (same stats as Lasguns). (You can take a stubbers as a special weapon, but AFAIK it's not taken / critical) so only firing Lasguns are fine.

There is a Guard Relic to let you get multiple orders on the same unit on a 4+.

And that's not including the new Specialist detachment whose warlord/relic is reroll 1s to hit aura, meaning Take Aim will give full rerolls all the time.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Nope, GW went full crazy there.

The only thing I can see that makes sense is if there was some odd typing issue that caused someone to accidentally type the veterans as 5 points rather than the infantry squad, because neither the infantry at 4 nor the veteran at 5 makes a shred of sense.

I mean, infantry squads are, for quite a while now, in EVERY imperial army. they needed a nerf far more than cultists did.

Nope. It's the Command Points they provide that needed the nerf and it's the ability for them to be souped in so easily with a Warlord that can do good things for an army that are the issue.

Infantry Squads by themselves aren't the issue. This Soup nonsense is.

Loafing wrote:
And that's not including the new Specialist detachment whose warlord/relic is reroll 1s to hit aura, meaning Take Aim will give full rerolls all the time.

The conclave? That's only in the fight phase.

While I agree Cultists should be 5pt, Guardsmen should be 5pt as well. Cultists should also lose access to VotLW, while CSMs/SMs (the units) should be dropped to 11 or 12pt.

Secondly, Heretic Astartes can't be removed as a Keyword, because it's their Faction Keyword and us CSM player would never be able to make a Battleforged Army with Cultists.

bibotot wrote:
What? How did this happen? Chaos Cultists are 5 points per model, but Guardsmen are still 4. There is no other change to either unit barring some wargear cost.

Guardsmen have better armor saves and the only thing going for the Cultists is the Alpha Legion shenanigan. Guardsmen have more weapon choice, but Cultists can get marks.

Veterans are only 5 points per model.

Can anyone tell me why this is the case? Did the newest Chapter Approve just do that to nerf Alpha Legion or something?

The Alpha Legion was nerfed from the top tables by the FAQ2 with the changes to the Forward Operatives stratagems.

 Eldarain wrote:
Access to easy Fearless, full rerolls to hit, +1 to wound, fire twice make them rather formidable.

Though Guardsmen should have taken a hit too.

Commissars, Vengeance for Cadia + Relic of Lost Cadia, Fire on My Target, FRFSRF, Guardsmen can take heavy and special weapons that aren't flamers and HS. But yeah, I agree - Guardsmen should go up a point.

Asmodios wrote:
Simple cultists get
1. Larger unit size- this is a massive boon for any unit that is primarily made to soak up danmage
2. Veterans of the long war
3. Guard “send in the next wave” got effectively removed from the game. Cultists still have theirs
4. -1 to hit
5. Go slaneesh and shoot twice with veterans of the long war
6. Because of the increased unit size every Colman’s point/ buff given to them is more efficient
7. Still have easy access to fearless

There is a reason 200+ cultist lists were a thing but not 200+ guard lists. If guard had access to all of the above you would see more then 32 in every list

1 - Kill 23 Cultists and the last die to Battleshock unless the Chaos player uses 2 CP, barring Abaddon and Iron Warrior Warlords.
2. Absolutely baller Stratagem that Cultists in no way should be able to use as they're not Veterans of the Long War.
3. Cultists can do it once.
4. That's the Alpha Legion only.
5. 3 CPs, something that Chaos doesn't have that much access due to zero CP regen.
6. Sure, but also requires 3 CPs per turn, which CSMs can't sustain.
7. See 1.

 grouchoben wrote:
It's obvious why it happened.

A stack of 40 cultists in rapid fire range can shoot 160 times, 3+, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound, for 2cps.

Expected damage of that salvo vs a Knight is 13.8 damage.

When it starts to thin out, spend another 2cps and the unit back for free on any boardedge.

Why the heck should that be 160pts?

It was a choice GW had: either remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists (good choice) or hike their points up (okish choice). They had to do one or the other, and because this is CA, which deals almost exclusively in points changes not rules, we got the second option. It was totally needed.

It's 3 CPs; 2 for Endless Cacophony and 1 for VotLW.

I agree in practice though - but just change VotLW to specifically not affect Cultists and alter Endless Cacophony to be keyed to PL. Also, retain the 5pt cost, but increase the Guardsman to 5pt too.

 Valkyrie wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Is a 1pt increase really that much of a big deal?

Well it is 20% increase, so it is relatively large. Not game breaking but it does have an effect.

Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?

Because there's been generally 480 points of them in loads of Chaos armies. As mentioned, it's 25% and not 20%, so that means 480pt ->600pt.

Loafing wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


That does require a specific regiment, an order, and for the unit in question to remain stationary.

Well, they can fire Lasguns twice. The sergeant won't be firing twice, nor will any special or heavy weapons. It also requires an order (meaning you can't stack it with the above).

Chaos' full reroll to hit is BLACK LEGION only. So subfaction only is fair game

The only guns Cultists CAN take are Autoguns (same stats as Lasguns). (You can take a stubbers as a special weapon, but AFAIK it's not taken / critical) so only firing Lasguns are fine.

There is a Guard Relic to let you get multiple orders on the same unit on a 4+.

And that's not including the new Specialist detachment whose warlord/relic is reroll 1s to hit aura, meaning Take Aim will give full rerolls all the time.

If you're thinking Abaddon, aye. But you can always have a barebones Alpha Legionnaire Chaos Lord babysitting as well, but -1 to hit doesn't really matter once your unit is Fearless and 40 strong. You also need it to be really close to the enemy to benefit from Rapid Fire.

 Trickstick wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.

Say Peregrine, what army do you play?

Krieg?

He doesn't play 40K and hates it with a passion- or so he has said in past posts. Doesn't stop him from about it every chance he can get.

It's disappointing that GW did little, if anything, to stop IG Soup. One extra point to Cultists? LOL So instead of a group of 20, I can only field 16 for the same cost? OK... I'm pretty sure a Chaos player will be able to find an extra 20 points somewhere to make the Cultists 20 models again. This will do little to curb Cultist Spam because, yeah, it's that good.

Loafing wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


That does require a specific regiment, an order, and for the unit in question to remain stationary.

Well, they can fire Lasguns twice. The sergeant won't be firing twice, nor will any special or heavy weapons. It also requires an order (meaning you can't stack it with the above).

Chaos' full reroll to hit is BLACK LEGION only. So subfaction only is fair game

The only guns Cultists CAN take are Autoguns (same stats as Lasguns). (You can take a stubbers as a special weapon, but AFAIK it's not taken / critical) so only firing Lasguns are fine.

There is a Guard Relic to let you get multiple orders on the same unit on a 4+.

And that's not including the new Specialist detachment whose warlord/relic is reroll 1s to hit aura, meaning Take Aim will give full rerolls all the time.

Nah, talking about certain subfactions only counts to make your Chaos unit look SUPER powerful, and it doesn't count for Infantry. Ever.

I can sort of find a logic in this.

GW analyzes the game by looking at problematic lists and stomping them.
Cultist spam was a problematic list? Yes, let's nerf it.
Guard spam is a problematic list? No, leave it as it is.

The only good thing here are the veterans at 5 points, together with the reduced cost of chimeras we could finally see mechanised guards again. Let's be honest, if the 4/5/6 paradigma were to pass, conscripts and guards would be fine, but no one would use veterans.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Nope, GW went full crazy there.

The only thing I can see that makes sense is if there was some odd typing issue that caused someone to accidentally type the veterans as 5 points rather than the infantry squad, because neither the infantry at 4 nor the veteran at 5 makes a shred of sense.

I mean, infantry squads are, for quite a while now, in EVERY imperial army. they needed a nerf far more than cultists did.

Nope. It's the Command Points they provide that needed the nerf and it's the ability for them to be souped in so easily with a Warlord that can do good things for an army that are the issue.

Infantry Squads by themselves aren't the issue. This Soup nonsense is.

That's an absurd notion, given that in a world when stratagems are not a thing and you judge a unit based on its own merits-the IS squad beats every single unit in the game in a straight fight.

Spoletta wrote:
I can sort of find a logic in this.

GW analyzes the game by looking at problematic lists and stomping them.
Cultist spam was a problematic list? Yes, let's nerf it.
Guard spam is a problematic list? No, leave it as it is.

The only good thing here are the veterans at 5 points, together with the reduced cost of chimeras we could finally see mechanised guards again. Let's be honest, if the 4/5/6 paradigma were to pass, conscripts and guards would be fine, but no one would use veterans.

The problem with this kind of reasoning is that GW continues to look at units individually while continuing to produce a game that has so much overlap between codexes and encourages combos via stratagems, chapter tactics, etc. It's impossible to value a unit properly when a unit is meh with 5 out of 6 choices but the 6th makes them way to much.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Nope, GW went full crazy there.

The only thing I can see that makes sense is if there was some odd typing issue that caused someone to accidentally type the veterans as 5 points rather than the infantry squad, because neither the infantry at 4 nor the veteran at 5 makes a shred of sense.

I mean, infantry squads are, for quite a while now, in EVERY imperial army. they needed a nerf far more than cultists did.

Nope. It's the Command Points they provide that needed the nerf and it's the ability for them to be souped in so easily with a Warlord that can do good things for an army that are the issue.

Infantry Squads by themselves aren't the issue. This Soup nonsense is.

That's an absurd notion, given that in a world when stratagems are not a thing and you judge a unit based on its own merits-the IS squad beats every single unit in the game in a straight fight.

But this game has stratagems and interactions, so a model based on straight fights is equally wrong.

Guys, come on now. Imperial Knights were getting wounds. Chaos had a patently better unit than the imperials. This should not, and was not stood for.

And CSM costing more than loyalist? Well, that's just the tax chaos needs on its codex to make up for OP chaos jank. Its like a few of you don't even play the game.

Table wrote:
Guys, come on now. Imperial Knights were getting wounds. Chaos had a patently better unit than the imperials. This should not, and was not stood for.

And CSM costing more than loyalist? Well, that's just the tax chaos needs on its codex to make up for OP chaos jank. Its like a few of you don't even play the game.

We need to create a mass email about Chaos Terminators after Chapter Approved comes out.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Guys, come on now. Imperial Knights were getting wounds. Chaos had a patently better unit than the imperials. This should not, and was not stood for.

And CSM costing more than loyalist? Well, that's just the tax chaos needs on its codex to make up for OP chaos jank. Its like a few of you don't even play the game.

We need to create a mass email about Chaos Terminators after Chapter Approved comes out.

Why? It's just the spike tax, nothing wrong here!

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Guys, come on now. Imperial Knights were getting wounds. Chaos had a patently better unit than the imperials. This should not, and was not stood for.

And CSM costing more than loyalist? Well, that's just the tax chaos needs on its codex to make up for OP chaos jank. Its like a few of you don't even play the game.

We need to create a mass email about Chaos Terminators after Chapter Approved comes out.

Why? It's just the spike tax, nothing wrong here!

That or the "Powerfist squads are overpriced crap; we need to charge Chaos for the ability to not take them!" tax. (My theory would be more correct if Deathwatch Terminators were closer to the CSM price, but GW chronically overprices their Fearless ability so it's hard to tell.)

Addendum: Nope, Deathwatch Terminators are the same price as normal loyalist ones now. Definitely the spike tax. (Also: ...I might actually use mine now!)

 ChazSexington wrote:
While I agree Cultists should be 5pt, Guardsmen should be 5pt as well. Cultists should also lose access to VotLW, while CSMs/SMs (the units) should be dropped to 11 or 12pt.

Secondly, Heretic Astartes can't be removed as a Keyword, because it's their Faction Keyword and us CSM player would never be able to make a Battleforged Army with Cultists.

I believe Cultists also get <LEGION> which I'm pretty sure can also count as a keyword for Battleforged.