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Gitdakka wrote:
Minotaurs in 40k with miniguns... Minigunotaurs.

there is nothing stopping you from doing that allready

Well, we've got Ogres, Halflings and Dwarf (note the singular!), so why not bring back the other archetype?

Perhaps it was an Ab-Human world consumer by a Warp Storm, which provides 'pre-packaged' shock troops? Lots of ways to handwavium them in, just as GW handwavium'd the entire setting

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Five. Add Dark Mechanicus.

Honest question how would DarkMech differ from AdMech?

As from my understanding it might work just as well to do DarkMech ala Knights <LOYALITY> keyword which is either IMPERIUM or CHAOS

(Of course there can be a few subfactions for DarkMech, but from what I know I'd rather see DarkMech, Traitor Knights, and the proposed Renegade Chapters be bundled in a Supplement:
Taint of Chaos / Chaos Corruption: a supplement for Codex: Imperial Knight, AdMech, and Space Marines

Ayuh, in practice the only real difference necessary is gifting them a suitable Faction Keyword.

In theory, there's no real limit on the kind of (allegedly heretical) creations a Dark Magos could come up with.

Real world examples suggest that what we'd get is the same as the Renegade & Heretics list; practically the same as the <IMPERIUM> version, but worse for no real reason.

And we'd need the AdMech book to run them, too. Because reasons.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Ayuh, in practice the only real difference necessary is gifting them a suitable Faction Keyword.

In theory, there's no real limit on the kind of (allegedly heretical) creations a Dark Magos could come up with.

Real world examples suggest that what we'd get is the same as the Renegade & Heretics list; practically the same as the <IMPERIUM> version, but worse for no real reason.

And we'd need the AdMech book to run them, too. Because reasons.

Skitarii with Bs5+ for the same price!

No Warlord Traits, no Relics, no Strategems because [Expletive Deleted] you, that's why.

Bleh. Chaos may be suffering now, but Chaos players actually had 6-9 months very good months in the Meta between Summer 2017 and early 2018.

There're plenty of faction that didn't have 6-9 comparable days in the Meta, or even a codex at all, no matter how bad (hello Space Wolves) that deserve a bit of Top-tier love for a few months first.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Bleh. Chaos may be suffering now, but Chaos players actually had 6-9 months very good months in the Meta between Summer 2017 and early 2018.

There're plenty of faction that didn't have 6-9 comparable days in the Meta, or even a codex at all, no matter how bad (hello Space Wolves) that deserve a bit of Top-tier love for a few months first.

Yeah but the issue with that is the good months in the meta were just chaos stew. Most people who say "Chaos needs to be good" want actual chaos (usually meaning "Traitor Legions" and, often, especially Marines) to be good, not some Frankenstein army.

Also, most players don't give two-gaks about the competitive meta so tossing me a cookie I can't eat and don't care about isn't an answer.

Also also, it isn't a zero-sum game. Chaos can need work AND other Factions can also need work.

My dodgy foundations don't mean your broken window doesn't need fixing.

Wayniac wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Bleh. Chaos may be suffering now, but Chaos players actually had 6-9 months very good months in the Meta between Summer 2017 and early 2018.

There're plenty of faction that didn't have 6-9 comparable days in the Meta, or even a codex at all, no matter how bad (hello Space Wolves) that deserve a bit of Top-tier love for a few months first.

Yeah but the issue with that is the good months in the meta were just chaos stew. Most people who say "Chaos needs to be good" want actual chaos (usually meaning "Traitor Legions" and, often, especially Marines) to be good, not some Frankenstein army.

Or Renegades, who aren't good by any measure possible. I don't run daemons, so dont know about them, but Renegades, who are actual chaos, hurt bad..

Sunny Side Up wrote:

There're plenty of faction that didn't have 6-9 comparable days in the Meta, or even a codex at all, no matter how bad (hello Space Wolves) that deserve a bit of Top-tier love for a few months first.

I'm sorry, but that's a terrible logic.
"Army X was bad for an edition therefore they deserve to be OP."

All armies should get the same amount of love during the design phase (as writing rules for Dark Eldar does not take resources than writing rules for Necrons)

Because it enters a downward spiral
- In 7e the Woofstar was OP, therefore Space Wolves deserve to be gak.

- GKs were garbage 3e onward until they got their OP Wardex, therefore deserve to be terrible for another 3 editions

Daemons are fairly capable by themselves.

Daemons and Renegades (the Chaotic 32) punches far above the respective weights of either by themselves, as is the case for most soups.

But even then, your Renegades don't actually do anything except generate CP, have ObSec and die to a stiff breeze.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Also, most players don't give two-gaks about the competitive meta so tossing me a cookie I can't eat and don't care about isn't an answer.

Also also, it isn't a zero-sum game. Chaos can need work AND other Factions can also need work.

My dodgy foundations don't mean your broken window doesn't need fixing.

This so much this:

Just because people want an actual codex for R&H/ dark-admech / more legion specific stuff, dosen't mean that a GK player should have to deal with the gak they are going through.
Same with loyalist legions, instead of propper legion units we got now primaris there, which i am still massively miffed about.

But even then, your Renegades don't actually do anything except generate CP, have ObSec and die to a stiff breeze.

Now that is not true, they also cover ground, mostliekly,

Loafing wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Five. Add Dark Mechanicus.

Honest question how would DarkMech differ from AdMech?

As from my understanding it might work just as well to do DarkMech ala Knights <LOYALITY> keyword which is either IMPERIUM or CHAOS

(Of course there can be a few subfactions for DarkMech, but from what I know I'd rather see DarkMech, Traitor Knights, and the proposed Renegade Chapters be bundled in a Supplement:
Taint of Chaos / Chaos Corruption: a supplement for Codex: Imperial Knight, AdMech, and Space Marines

Dark Mechanicus strike me as closer to Mekboyz that Tech Priests. They're experimenters. That's why they split in the first place. The main difference is a Dark Mech Adept has an interest in mass producing their new thing, as opposed to a Mekboy making every job a Kustom Job.

Also, the last few comments. Did anybody actually read what this topic was?

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Wayniac wrote:Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

Five. Add Dark Mechanicus.

*sploosh*

This! We will get the big four of Chaos Marines in their own books at least. Then we need at Chaos legions book to encompass the other 5 and then a SEPARATE renegades book. And for chaos sake give them drop pods and whirlwinds etc!

This! We will get the big four of Chaos Marines in their own books at least. Then we need at Chaos legions book to encompass the other 5 and then a SEPARATE renegades book. And for chaos sake give them drop pods and whirlwinds etc!

Please no.

We don't need that many codices.

Chaos should have Drop Pods/Whirlwinds, but we only need 4 codices. All of the legions can fit in a single book, including renegades, they simply need to make sub factions a little bit more in-depth.

 SickSix wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Wayniac wrote:Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

Five. Add Dark Mechanicus.

*sploosh*

This! We will get the big four of Chaos Marines in their own books at least. Then we need at Chaos legions book to encompass the other 5 and then a SEPARATE renegades book. And for chaos sake give them drop pods and whirlwinds etc!

Renegades need to be consolidated into the main Marine codex and used via certain keywords, and maybe a couple of special units like Spawn and Possessed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Same with AdMech and Imperial Knights. Represent them via switching of keywords.

If you're going to go with that logic you could argue that they shouldn't have access to Spawn or Possessed, being relative noobs to the whole Chaos business, and lose another five or six pages.

Renegades and Traitor Legionnaires are an odd one. Because in the background, they're not directly comparable.

For instance, someone that's been around since the Heresy also fought during The Great Crusade.

Even with wibbly-warp-timey-wimey meaning they've not necessarily spent 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror, that's still an awful lot of experience. So in many senses, a Traitor Legionnaire should be more of a threat than a recent turncoat, particularly when fighting Loyalist Marines.

At the moment, the rules don't really reflect that to my satisfaction (YMMV of course, and fair enough).

So I think there may be room for a 'proper turbo nutter, been doing this since the start' Traitor Legion codex, and a 'recent Renegades and the sort of oiks they'd attract' Codex.

In the former, the Marines do the bulk of the lifting. Give them squad options from The Heresy (including Despoilers. Seems very Chaos to me!). One on one, they should be more than a match for a Loyalist. Access to Daemons as well.

In the latter? Just standard Marines. Perhaps some access to more modern weapons, backed up with Cultists and Renegade Guard etc? Limited or no access to Daemons, as they've not exactly had the time to figure that out, and may not be so far gone as to think it's actually a good idea. Yet.

But hey, this is just my take and isn't to be taken as any kind of gospel

That's why I generally say that Traitor Legions and Renegades need a distinction. Traitor Legions need the old 3.5 veteran rules back (for those who weren't around: You could buy squad-level upgrades from a list, for example, you could buy a squad Infiltrate, or make them better at combat) along with what is basically Sternguard/Vanguard stats for the baseline troops to represent the potential millennia of fighting in the warp.

Renegades need to be closer to what we have now but allow them to take some Loyalist marine choices to represent the fact they are recent converts. It always was silly that a Chapter that turned rogue would suddenly drop all of their new equipment and vehicles. The downside for this might be something like they can't use daemons, perhaps.

Back in the old days, this would have been easy to achieve because GW was fine with 0-1 restrictions on units. Now, it would be trickier since they don't want to do that if they can avoid it, and since they want to standardize points they would have to create a new unit (e.g. "Renegade Whirlwind") so it could have different points (back in 2nd edition, for instance, Red Corsairs could take wargear from the Space Marine codex for I believe 25% extra cost)

I guess what I’m trying to say is that for a faction that both big and little c Chaotic, it’s awfully regimented.

I feel like they should offer a plethora of Codecies, so Us Nerds can find the strand of Chaos that really suits the individual.

Perhaps not as many as The Imperium, as that would just further push Xenos to the periphery. But definitely more than Spikey Bois Or GTFO, and I’m not sure Chaos *Insert Otherwise Imperial Military Wing Here* is quite right.

The fine-line between flexibility and certainty has been walked by rule/lawmakers since the beginning of time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I guess what I’m trying to say is that for a faction that both big and little c Chaotic, it’s awfully regimented.

I feel like they should offer a plethora of Codecies, so Us Nerds can find the strand of Chaos that really suits the individual.

Perhaps not as many as The Imperium, as that would just further push Xenos to the periphery. But definitely more than Spikey Bois Or GTFO, and I’m not sure Chaos *Insert Otherwise Imperial Military Wing Here* is quite right.

Take a look if you can at the 7th ed rules for r&h then from IA13.
You could represent anything mortal humans and dark mechanicum wanted, any god focus, unaligned included and devotions for your demagogue that changed the basic units in such ways that they in essence became whole other units.

Now all we've got is this gak index in the same book as kriegsmen are.....

Oh I've got the collector's Ed of IA:13. It's amazing!

Bit daunting for a NooB though!

Wayniac wrote:
Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

5) Dark Mechanicus

Gitdakka wrote:
Minotaurs in 40k with miniguns... Minigunotaurs.

OH YES PEASE

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh I've got the collector's Ed of IA:13. It's amazing!

Bit daunting for a NooB though!

Not really though. I am still salty about the way fw handled the r&h list in 8th. Heck i recently lookd through the old FW vraks list. That thing atm looks more enticing then what we have now....