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Bharring wrote: Odd, my Striking Scorpions still need to avoid equal numbers of ASM or they get bogged down. You get MWs on 6s, sure, but you wound on 4s and they wound on 3s. Same attacks. Scorpions have a minor edge thanks to the MW, but ASM have either more manueverability (jetpacks) or are cheaper (no jetpacks).
I don't see Scorpions doing anything ASM don't do.
Scorpions are now 11pts per CA changes. Assault marines are 14pts per. Originally scorpions were 13pts per. still 1 pt cheaper but scorpions have better movement and +1 strength, and ap - 1 on their basic swords. They also have pistols that on 6s have an ap-3... Oh and a grenade option that is d6 s4 ap-1 on each scorpion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 21:25:06
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I don't see many faults in this but I won't say I have it's perfect just seems like a decent band aid
Given the prevalence of marines your not really changing anything as it's a net zero, it also screws armies that don't have mass high AP or AP- fire.
It also gets increasingly difficult to justify why sisters with bolters and power armour etc shouldn't get the same rules.
Truthfully I was aiming for a net 0 with marine on marine violence. As far as the reasoning for sisters not getting the same bonuses I'd say their armour isn't as thick and they use a smaller caliber. It is a bit of a cop out.
I dunno if I had my way I think I'd just bump marines to 15, give them the Primaris stats minus the 30" range. Then I'd make Primaris S5 T5 with S5 bolt rifle, then they might be worth their initial cost of 20
Asherian,
I had forgotten that. Fortunately ASM with jumppacks went down a point too!
Scorpions and ASM with packs should be the same points. They are great foils of eachother. But Scorpions were cheaper than ASM pre-CA, and still considered bad. What that means for ASM...
You can extend this to other options. Dire Avengers were just fine compared to Tacs at 12ppm. And they weren't considered good. DAs went down to 11ppm, and Tacs stayed at 13ppm. And that's with a free Exarch that certainly shouldn't be free.
At least Devs are now cheaper than Reapers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Scorpions get +1s on their swords, but AP0 just like Chainswords. However, that +1s on their swords brings them up to ASM levels (S4) - so it brings them to parity, it doesn't bring them above.
Their pistols are better, and so are their grenades. But their mobility is worse, and their toughness is worse. A fairly fair tradeoff model-for-model. Which is why they should be the same PPM.
Once again, shows how boned ASM are.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (on mobility, Scoprions have M7, but ASM have M12 + Fly...)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 21:31:24
Bharring wrote: Asherian, I had forgotten that. Fortunately ASM with jumppacks went down a point too!
Scorpions and ASM with packs should be the same points. They are great foils of eachother. But Scorpions were cheaper than ASM pre-CA, and still considered bad. What that means for ASM...
You can extend this to other options. Dire Avengers were just fine compared to Tacs at 12ppm. And they weren't considered good. DAs went down to 11ppm, and Tacs stayed at 13ppm. And that's with a free Exarch that certainly shouldn't be free.
At least Devs are now cheaper than Reapers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Scorpions get +1s on their swords, but AP0 just like Chainswords. However, that +1s on their swords brings them up to ASM levels (S4) - so it brings them to parity, it doesn't bring them above.
Their pistols are better, and so are their grenades. But their mobility is worse, and their toughness is worse. A fairly fair tradeoff model-for-model. Which is why they should be the same PPM. Once again, shows how boned ASM are.
If you cant tell but they are my most favorite units in the entire game.
Oh and yes you are right tehy don't have the minus ap! I seem to have read the biting blade profile! (which is amazing) That mortal wounds on 6s really also helps, (also doesn't help I roll really well). Plus typically with scorpions have a squad of 6 with an exarch with claw. Which only makes the squad more deadly. and their chance to get more attacks on 6s. (also when they are fighting in cover that is alot easier to have done cause of the +1 attack whilst fighting in cover. They are insane unit and the fact they are cheaper than vanguard and assault marines in terms of stats and PPM makes them SM killers.
but ASM have M12 + Fly...)
Only if they pay for jumppacks which is 16 pts ppm? so for a squad of 5 assault marines compared to scorpions, I could have 7 scorpions, so 7 mortal wounds per base touch or 7D6 AP - 1 S4 grenades.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 21:37:20
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
There are some finer points here:
-The Exarch can take a better weapon. So can the Sarge. You can also take a Flamer or Plas Pistol, and/or an Eviscerator. I'd put the options slightly into the Scorpion's favor, but not by much.
-Only the Exarch explodes attacks on 6s. Which won't happen with the Claw, because you can't roll a 6. Being in cover does make that possible again, but we're talking one extra attack every other round at best. But cover takes me to:
-You should rarely be getting the +1 for fighting a unit in cover. The enemy just needs to have one model not in cover, and no bonus.
At their new 11ppm, they probably aren't bad anymore. But we certainly agree that ASM shouldn't cost more than Scorpions. And that this is a great example to show ASM are baaad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Only if they pay for jumppacks which is 16 pts ppm? so for a squad of 5 assault marines compared to scorpions, I could have 7 scorpions"
Exactly the problem. If it were 5 JP ASM vs 5 Scorpions, it'd be a fair tradeoff.
"7 scorpions, so 7 mortal wounds per base touch or 7D6 AP - 1 S4 grenades."
7/6 expected MW from a 7man squad. So just over 1 MW for that squad. Less than 1 for a min squad.
Plas Grenades are Grenades, so regardless of the models in the unit, it's 1d6 AP-1 S4 grenade shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 21:43:21
Bharring wrote: Odd, my Striking Scorpions still need to avoid equal numbers of ASM or they get bogged down. You get MWs on 6s, sure, but you wound on 4s and they wound on 3s. Same attacks. Scorpions have a minor edge thanks to the MW, but ASM have either more manueverability (jetpacks) or are cheaper (no jetpacks).
I don't see Scorpions doing anything ASM don't do.
Both units are unplayable unfortunately.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: The solution is to let all marines take 2 point storm sheilds.
Combat shields a fundamentally worse equipment is now more expensive than a +3 invulnerable save.
Whoever balanced CA needs to get their bolts straightened. Cause honestly at this point a combat shield should just be free.
A stormshield should be 5pts, and/or a combat shield is 2pts. now 2pts. For petes sake.
I think we just need less invulnerable saves. Not more. More invulnerable saves just create blatant power creep. Every squad getting invulnerable saves is just annoying to everyone involved.
Yeah - my friends and I have already started joking.
"At least chapter approved taught us the true value of a 3+ save - 0 points - cause 3++ is 2 points LOL"
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: I disagree. Reapers and Spears have tremendous offense for their cost. Marines have pop guns AND the high AP problem. If you just make AP rarer, marines would not be much better off at all I think. The game you want existed for the first half of 3rd and maybe part of 4th. Maybe. The rest of the game is base marines doing nothing and dying like bitches.
Which marines have pop guns? Do you mean Tac Marines who are and have been for as long as I can remember little more than a filler unit? Even Tac marines can and usually should take special weapons and heavy weapons - and then treat the rest of the squad as ablative wounds.
The marine codex has more than Tac marines in it and surprisingly they are not all equipped with just bolters.
Bremon wrote: ASM are one of the worst units in a codex filled to the brim with more bad units than other factions have total units, good or bad.
Isn't that the space marine codex though? "A bunch of bad units?"
I mean yeah some cases of people use a vindicator. But does anyone actually use it competitively? Oh what about Centurions? Oh yeah no one uses those seriously... What about Whirlwinds? Nah nobody uses that.... Oh what about. The list goes on there are so many stupid space marine units that have very little place existing in the codex as it is now. If the vindicator, whirlwind, and centurions just didn't appear in the next codex, no one would care less.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: 11ppm Scorpions are far less unplayable than 15ppm ASM, though!
Plus with Karandras just being 125pts it is now worth it to take him along with your scorpions to make a megadeath star for less than 300 pts
For that same amount of points you could afford um... two tactical squads? (actually thats two expensive!) Oh what about a full squad of terminators oh wait still too expensive...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 21:58:03
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
To all the people suggesting that marines ignore AP -1: you can't do that. Giving such an rule to the most popular faction in the game would completely skew the value of AP -1. That relates to the larger issue with marines, they're the baseline, so they really cannot get anything really extraordinary.
I still think 2xScorps will outperform Karandras + Scorps, and for fewer points.
Exploding hits is a trap. Even in cover, with +1tohit power, you're looking at 50% more basic-sword-attacks. Twice the unit does 100% more basic-sword-attacks, and everything else.
A couple of things on the Scorpions which can make them very slightly "okay", but still sub-par when it comes to tournaments perhaps.
1) The Exarchs claw does not suffer a -1 to hit (so he can get exploding attacks)
2) The biting blade is now cheaper, where before it was so close to the claw, but worse...it was illogical
3) The Striking Scorpions gain +1 to hit vs. enemies in cover, and it doesn't state shooting or melee...so you'd have 2+ to shoot and fight vs. models in cover (re-rolling 1's on the Shuriken Pistol if you have Biel-Tan craftworld)
4) The mortal wound mask occurs each fighting phase, not just yours. While '6's are rough...occasionally you're going to luck out and roll those 3-4 sixes and kill dead something decent.
5) They're now better priced (almost cheap)
A squad of 10 is around 115 points or so, which is reasonable, but they're just not a "power" unit. If anything, I think they're now one of the most accurately statted and costed units - meaning, of course, they fall under all of the over-effective units.
EDIT: I will agree that another squad of Scorpions is definitely better than Karandras, one of the less well equipped Phoenix Lords (though he's still cool and I look forward to fielding him again sometime). Even with reductions, Phoenix Lords are still in a bad spot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 22:10:02
I know it's not really pertinent to 8th edition, but since the problem is old (people have been complaining about Space Marine durability for about as long as Space Marines have faced heavy and special weapons), I thought it could give another angle.
As a "fix" for Space Marines in 7th edition, I proposed the following changes. Bolters gain a range of 30 inches. Storm Bolters become Assault 3 (but remain 24 in range). Heavy Bolter become Salvo 4/2. All Space Marines gain a free close combat weapon for an extra attack. Assault Marines gain the option to take special close combat weapons in addition to special weapons. Jump Pack can be used for movement and charge in the same round. Terminators gain an extra wound and so do all characters in Terminator Armor. The modification on Bolters, Stormbolters and Heavy Bolters carry over to all factions who uses them.
The idea was that by giving htem more range, Space Marine could gain a bit of an edge against most other armies in firefights. They could force other troops to advance and thus negate them the use of some heavy weapons and more time, perhapse even gain a round of shooting without being in harms way and weaken close combat hordes like orks or tyranids. Stormbolters used to be very underwhelming, but fortunately this has been fixed, Heavy Bolters could use a little bit more love and mobility. The extra attack transformed you normal tactical marine in a good close combat fighter, capable of cleaning up what has been shot previously. assault marine would be especially fast and would have stronger charges. All in all, I think it approched the problem in a smarter way then by just slapping even more armor on Marines or making their bolters super bolters.
My solution to the Marine problem is give them more range and give them more speed. This way, they can maximise their abilities and become more tactically flexible which is both fluffy and important on the tabletop. Plus, these upgrades can be passed on to Sisters without breaking them too and diminishing them when compared to their bigger brothers. a bit more range gave their force a little bit of an edge considering they fight really close in general.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 22:17:33
Elbows wrote: A couple of things on the Scorpions which can make them very slightly "okay", but still sub-par when it comes to tournaments perhaps.
1) The Exarchs claw does not suffer a -1 to hit (so he can get exploding attacks)
2) The biting blade is now cheaper, where before it was so close to the claw, but worse...it was illogical
3) The Striking Scorpions gain +1 to hit vs. enemies in cover, and it doesn't state shooting or melee...so you'd have 2+ to shoot and fight vs. models in cover (re-rolling 1's on the Shuriken Pistol if you have Biel-Tan craftworld)
4) The mortal wound mask occurs each fighting phase, not just yours. While '6's are rough...occasionally you're going to luck out and roll those 3-4 sixes and kill dead something decent.
5) They're now better priced (almost cheap)
A squad of 10 is around 115 points or so, which is reasonable, but they're just not a "power" unit. If anything, I think they're now one of the most accurately statted and costed units - meaning, of course, they fall under all of the over-effective units.
EDIT: I will agree that another squad of Scorpions is definitely better than Karandras, one of the less well equipped Phoenix Lords (though he's still cool and I look forward to fielding him again sometime). Even with reductions, Phoenix Lords are still in a bad spot.
So this should be the aim of most squads in the game to be this effective when it comes to cost and efficiency? Cause Scorpions have a lot of abilities that make them worthwhile to take over Banshees. (Who still need some help in terms of movement and maybe an invulernable save?)
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
The problem with assault is that is hard to do - so getting average results isn't enough if you pull it off. You need murder whatever you get into contact with - doing around 60-70% of your points value. Preferably with a near guaranteed turn 2 charge - if not reasonable odds of connecting turn 1. This can be offset if you have good shooting - but pistols that may do nothing in the 1st turn hardly qualify.
So its hard to see say 115 point units of 10 Scorps killing 70 points worth of stuff - not least because most basic infantry they might bully don't run in units of that size (tactical are probably the exception, but thats because they are overcosted). Wiping a 10 man guardsmen or 5 kabalites/fire warriors then being shot to death isn't worth it.
Really 5 man units of Scorpions and Assault Marines need to be able to bully these min-sized units, and they just don't. If you kill 5 Guardsmen and they can just walk the survivors away next turn they are not going to be broken up about it.
Big squads who can multi-charge with rerolls are the way to go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 22:23:17
Tyel wrote: The problem with assault is that is hard to do - so getting average results isn't enough if you pull it off. You need murder whatever you get into contact with - doing around 60-70% of your points value. Preferably with a near guaranteed turn 2 charge - if not reasonable odds of connecting turn 1. This can be offset if you have good shooting - but pistols that may do nothing in the 1st turn hardly qualify.
So its hard to see say 115 point units of 10 Scorps killing 70 points worth of stuff - not least because most basic infantry they might bully don't run in units of that size (tactical are probably the exception, but thats because they are overcosted). Wiping a 10 man guardsmen or 5 kabalites/fire warriors then being shot to death isn't worth it.
Really 5 man units of Scorpions and Assault Marines need to be able to bully these min-sized units, and they just don't. If you kill 5 Guardsmen and they can just walk the survivors away next turn they are not going to be broken up about it.
Big squads who can multi-charge with rerolls are the way to go.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
The problem with marines is that in fluff each marine is supposed to be as good as 10 to 100 guardsmen) but in game its only 16% better stats while costing something like 3x more than the base guardsmen.
this means ether space marines are severely over costed, or guardsmen type models are under costed.
That and the AP system doesnt help the extra cost of power armor. and that the weapons with higher ap have gotten cheaper and more available.
Just as a straight example of expectations vs what we got. not saying that marines are weak or guardsmen them selves are strong but im sure this sort of pattern will continue if examining everything to everything.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 22:37:56
Asherian Command wrote: To get right off, I've been reading the forums and talking with people and friends. And I've felt this could be hopefully a constructive thread. I know from some threads that people get very hyper about what is best or what is worst. But I always felt there is time for self reflection on our power armored friends. Lately I have yet to face a single space marine opponent in months. I play regularly and even I stopped playing with my space marines as I was tired of losing every single game. So I picked up my eldar Uthwe army and wrecked most factions with my dark reaper spam.
But lets get to the crux of this thread....
Dakknauts, what do you think is wrong with Space Marines? *And Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, And all the other flavors of space marines
I would love to hear your thoughts. Because of this, I have spoilered my own thoughts. Read at your own risk.
My thoughts Please do not read my opinion until you are done writing your own. I want to hear your thoughts. Not mine!
Spoiler:
Intro Okay a bit of background, I've been playing this hobby since I could hold a pen. I started at the end of 3rd and even played in the black crusade campaign with my brother. Learning from him how to play. I got my first space marine army when I was 8 and then got my Eldar army when i was 10. I have been collecting and playing ever since. But I quit in 6th edition as college got in the way and I wanted to pursue my degree in Game Design, and my eventual Masters which I am preparing to look for. I have at least 4-5 years of game mechanical engineering, game design, gameplay programming, and product development. Not to gloat but system designing is one of my favorite past times finding errors in systems is a fun hobby. And returning to the 8th edition I immensely enjoy the challenge of seeing what is wrong with it. And I think the first issue is with our Power Armored Friends.
What could it be? First off, I know space marines are currently overcosted and don't perform that well. Even in the many games i've played I always felt like I was on the backfoot event when I had the advantage. The points for space marines seem to be structured entirely around having an active aura effect all the time... While AP damage systems seem to really punish space marines and normal armor saves its really hard to defend against increasingly high amounts of AP damage. It seems to be that every single unit that has power armor is paying a premium for subpar stats that make little different when they don't have a large killing potential compared to other similarly priced units.
An Old System ?
Space Marines are currently in my opinion overcosted and underperforming because they were balanced around the old AP system because of this their +3 armor save means absolutely nothing without an invulnerable save. Without it, a tactical squad or assaults squad will always underperform because there are better alternatives. They don't put out enough damage to really make a difference. Space marines have always been expensive but they always had the competitive edge of always having a +3 armor save and having very few things that could penetrate and make you lose that +3 armor save. With the new AP system, it punishes and severely limits all power armor in the entire game. Once you face something with an ap -3 or -4 that squad of marines is dead. And those have become very common in 8th edition. Every single army has one in spades except for space marines. (or they are extremely overcosted because it is a space marine list).
There is also the problem that marines have no damage output at all, their baseline bolter is horrifically bad and has a very low chance of killing most other targets in the game (except for gaunts) but even then space marines are never taken at full tactical squad capacity because there is 0 benefit.
Old Rules for an Old age
Combat Squads is a completely useless skill for 8th if you don't have the max of 10. There is no reason to combat your squad if you want CP generation. So that makes their entire 'special rule' completely moot. You don't want to have extra points in one detachment if you can get more powerful units in another. Again this is another holdover of previous editions, you had to work in the end with a very limiting system, and there was no cp generation. You were given one chart and told "Go crazy!". Because of this you wanted to have as many as you could in one squad so you combat squad it and move it into separate directions because marines were extremely durable. Especially for tactics as you got access to more specialists weapons. Space marines in previous editions were extremely durable because the AP and most systems were BALANCED around space marines. This edition I have no idea whom they balanced it around but it is obvious that space marines are in a lackluster position because most of their rules are from previous editions.
If space marines were played in any other edition except 8th they would be a great army. But they aren't causing you are punished for playing as space marines.
Conclusion
In short Space Marines have rulesets, power, and killing power issues that stem from overbalancing and just seems to be lazy design. They have rules that do absolutely nothing and cannot be activated as they are rarely beneficary to the player (Stares intently at Combat Squads). This would require an entire rework of the entire space marine collection for space marines to be considered viable. Every unit in the space marine codex needs to be looked at carefully and revevaluated in terms of roles in the space marine army.
Here are my thoughts on this topic.
Marines suffer from several problems on the table top, the worst of which is that their 3+ armor save just doesn't mean anything anymore. Partly this is because so many armies can spam high strength, high armor penetration weapons on their basic troops too easily.
Case in point, Plasma on Guard infantry, Blasters on Kabalites, Ion or Rail on Pathfinders, Helblasters, etc.
But, I've often argued for a few suggestions.
1. Make bolters much more beefier. In some way they have done this with the new primaris bolters, but it's not enough. Consider the following as a suggestion to improve bolter weapons.
-Add "when this weapons target has a toughness of 3 or less, roll +1 to wound, If this models save characteristic is a 4+ or higher, add AP-1"
This would make bolters much more effective against low toughness high save models such as Guard, Kabalites and so on, better representing the destructive nature of this weapon.
Another suggestion is to improve the survive-ability of marines in the face of small arms fire. The best way to do this in my opinion is to add "Power Armor: Reduce the damage of all incoming attacks by 1, to a minimum of 1. In addition a model in power armor may re-roll failed saving throws of 1, if the weapon has no AP characteristic." This way it doesn't drastically remove the effectiveness of high ap weapons.
Chapter tactics should apply to all infantry and vehicles. It doesn't make sense that a Salamanders tank gunner or driver would forget how to better use his weapons just because he's now in a tank. Not being able to apply our benefits to our tanks, makes them much less effective.
But, there is something else beyond all this I want to suggest.
Marines are in the very beginning of a transition, the entire line is like to be different by the middle of 2020. Because of that very fact I would expect marines to not be doing all that well despite not also being the worst army in the game.
One more side note.
Are they really that bad? I play my Primaris/Old Marine mix force about 4-5 times per month. They're quite fun and I have a fairly even win/loss rate with them. They likely don't do well at events, but every day games seem to be just fine.
Tyel wrote: The problem with assault is that is hard to do - so getting average results isn't enough if you pull it off. You need murder whatever you get into contact with - doing around 60-70% of your points value. Preferably with a near guaranteed turn 2 charge - if not reasonable odds of connecting turn 1. This can be offset if you have good shooting - but pistols that may do nothing in the 1st turn hardly qualify.
So its hard to see say 115 point units of 10 Scorps killing 70 points worth of stuff - not least because most basic infantry they might bully don't run in units of that size (tactical are probably the exception, but thats because they are overcosted). Wiping a 10 man guardsmen or 5 kabalites/fire warriors then being shot to death isn't worth it.
Really 5 man units of Scorpions and Assault Marines need to be able to bully these min-sized units, and they just don't. If you kill 5 Guardsmen and they can just walk the survivors away next turn they are not going to be broken up about it.
Big squads who can multi-charge with rerolls are the way to go.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
I miss sweeping advance. As a guard player I'd still choose to risk it and fall back because they're just guardsmen, but yea it doesn't make sense that infantry can just run away from guys hacking at them with chainsaws and get away without risk.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
Are they really that bad? I play my Primaris/Old Marine mix force about 4-5 times per month. They're quite fun and I have a fairly even win/loss rate with them. They likely don't do well at events, but every day games seem to be just fine.
Most of your points are salient and I agree with them.
They are pretty bad especially in tournaments and matched play. AT my store its mostly knight meta so marines just bellyflop when they face one.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I would up that considering they are literally right next to them so hits on 5+, 6+ would make sense if they are charging at you, not away from you. Its easier to hit someone in the back than someone running straight at you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 22:40:59
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I don't think Marines suck. Or, more accurately, I don't think Marines such significantly more than most other (troop) infantry in the game.
The issue with 40k is that there's rarely any value in even having infantry. What exactly does infantry do that makes them worth taking?
Outside of a few exceptions, infantry are basically just tanks - except slower and with significantly worse armour and firepower. There's basically nothing they can do that can't be done just as well (and usually much better) by vehicles or monsters. And please don't give me any crap about Objective Secured. Objective Secured is utterly worthless when your troops are smeared across the battlefield because you were stupid enough to bring infantry to a Mechwarrior fight.
What's more, infantry are almost always hampered by having to take garbage weapons on most members - which are useless against everything but infantry, and still pretty poor even then.
It's compounded even more by the fact that GW adamantly refuses to give most large models weaknesses. In virtually every case, they're vastly more durable than infantry and have vastly more firepower, but then they compound that by also being drastically more mobile. You have Imperial Knights that move at the same speed as Dark Eldar Raiders. Again, what is even the point of infantry? If Knights and such were at least slow, then they might need infantry to support them and go forward to capture objectives and such. But when Knights travel at the speed of Anime-Mechas, why would anyone bother?
Even IG Infantry Squads - probably the best infantry in the game at present - still only get used as a cheap way to generate CP, in order to fuel the Knights and such to actually do the legwork. Anything the infantry do on the battlefield after that is basically just a bonus.
If you want Space Marines to be worthwhile, then the first thing that needs to change is for Infantry to stop being treated as nothing more than target-practise for Knights. They need a meaningful role. Either go back to 5th and make it that only troops can capture objectives, or else give troops a way to punch above their weight class (at least under certain circumstances).
Further to this, I'd suggest that most/all Auras should only affect infantry. Stacking buffs is one of the things that actually makes a few infantry units worth taking. However, when a commander's aura is equally effective on infantry and vehicles, then you might as well stick with the one that packs more firepower by default.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Tyel wrote: The problem with assault is that is hard to do - so getting average results isn't enough if you pull it off. You need murder whatever you get into contact with - doing around 60-70% of your points value. Preferably with a near guaranteed turn 2 charge - if not reasonable odds of connecting turn 1. This can be offset if you have good shooting - but pistols that may do nothing in the 1st turn hardly qualify.
So its hard to see say 115 point units of 10 Scorps killing 70 points worth of stuff - not least because most basic infantry they might bully don't run in units of that size (tactical are probably the exception, but thats because they are overcosted). Wiping a 10 man guardsmen or 5 kabalites/fire warriors then being shot to death isn't worth it.
Really 5 man units of Scorpions and Assault Marines need to be able to bully these min-sized units, and they just don't. If you kill 5 Guardsmen and they can just walk the survivors away next turn they are not going to be broken up about it.
Big squads who can multi-charge with rerolls are the way to go.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
I've always thought retreating should have a dice roll too, if you fail you can still retreat but take D3 MW on the way out or something.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I think leaving combat should come with two conditions:
You must roll equal to or lower than your highest leadership in the unit.
If you roll under your LD you get away, no problem.
If you roll equal to your LD, you get away, but the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
If you roll above your LD, you are locked in combat for this turn.
It's simple, easy to use and doesn't complicate the game in any fashion.
Are they really that bad? I play my Primaris/Old Marine mix force about 4-5 times per month. They're quite fun and I have a fairly even win/loss rate with them. They likely don't do well at events, but every day games seem to be just fine.
Most of your points are salient and I agree with them.
They are pretty bad especially in tournaments and matched play. AT my store its mostly knight meta so marines just bellyflop when they face one.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I would up that considering they are literally right next to them so hits on 5+, 6+ would make sense if they are charging at you, not away from you. Its easier to hit someone in the back than someone running straight at you.
Ah! Of course. We had three knight players and they all abandoned Knights the moment the changes to Command points happened. So we never see even a single Knight in our games these days. That does make a huge difference!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 23:01:43
vipoid wrote: I don't think Marines suck. Or, more accurately, I don't think Marines such significantly more than most other (troop) infantry in the game.
The issue with 40k is that there's rarely any value in even having infantry. What exactly does infantry do that makes them worth taking?
Outside of a few exceptions, infantry are basically just tanks - except slower and with significantly worse armour and firepower. There's basically nothing they can do that can't be done just as well (and usually much better) by vehicles or monsters. And please don't give me any crap about Objective Secured. Objective Secured is utterly worthless when your troops are smeared across the battlefield because you were stupid enough to bring infantry to a Mechwarrior fight.
What's more, infantry are almost always hampered by having to take garbage weapons on most members - which are useless against everything but infantry, and still pretty poor even then.
It's compounded even more by the fact that GW adamantly refuses to give most large models weaknesses. In virtually every case, they're vastly more durable than infantry and have vastly more firepower, but then they compound that by also being drastically more mobile. You have Imperial Knights that move at the same speed as Dark Eldar Raiders. Again, what is even the point of infantry? If Knights and such were at least slow, then they might need infantry to support them and go forward to capture objectives and such. But when Knights travel at the speed of Anime-Mechas, why would anyone bother?
Even IG Infantry Squads - probably the best infantry in the game at present - still only get used as a cheap way to generate CP, in order to fuel the Knights and such to actually do the legwork. Anything the infantry do on the battlefield after that is basically just a bonus.
If you want Space Marines to be worthwhile, then the first thing that needs to change is for Infantry to stop being treated as nothing more than target-practise for Knights. They need a meaningful role. Either go back to 5th and make it that only troops can capture objectives, or else give troops a way to punch above their weight class (at least under certain circumstances).
Further to this, I'd suggest that most/all Auras should only affect infantry. Stacking buffs is one of the things that actually makes a few infantry units worth taking. However, when a commander's aura is equally effective on infantry and vehicles, then you might as well stick with the one that packs more firepower by default.
So meta lists with 1000 points or more in Guard mostly infantry are just wasting over half their points to power up that solo castellen? It's not like that list did well against a yannari list without the Castellen.
Marine infantry squads suck, but that doesn't mean all infantry do.
Being cheap and hence available in number makes units effective, everything wounds everything on a 6 now meaning 40 dice wounding on 6's is often better than 5 wounding on 4+, quantity has a quality all of its own.
Also you know that useless rule of ObSec, guess what 2 guardsmen at 8 points on an objective scoreeven with a 600 point enemy knight or such standing on the same objective.
Most of these models do have weakness just marines suck at exploiting them, but thats more because short of expensive units marines threat level is pathetic for their point.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I think leaving combat should come with two conditions:
You must roll equal to or lower than your highest leadership in the unit.
If you roll under your LD you get away, no problem.
If you roll equal to your LD, you get away, but the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
If you roll above your LD, you are locked in combat for this turn.
It's simple, easy to use and doesn't complicate the game in any fashion.
Are they really that bad? I play my Primaris/Old Marine mix force about 4-5 times per month. They're quite fun and I have a fairly even win/loss rate with them. They likely don't do well at events, but every day games seem to be just fine.
Most of your points are salient and I agree with them.
They are pretty bad especially in tournaments and matched play. AT my store its mostly knight meta so marines just bellyflop when they face one.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I would up that considering they are literally right next to them so hits on 5+, 6+ would make sense if they are charging at you, not away from you. Its easier to hit someone in the back than someone running straight at you.
Ah! Of course. We had three knight players and they all abandoned Knights the moment the changes to Command points happened. So we never see even a single Knight in our games these days. That does make a huge difference!
No way is the D3 MW justified, seriously what is it with people and MW it's a garbage mechanic, should a landraider take 3MW just because it was touched by a poxwalker?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 23:05:52
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I think leaving combat should come with two conditions:
You must roll equal to or lower than your highest leadership in the unit.
If you roll under your LD you get away, no problem.
If you roll equal to your LD, you get away, but the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
If you roll above your LD, you are locked in combat for this turn.
It's simple, easy to use and doesn't complicate the game in any fashion.
How would this factor in with a vast majority of units being LD 7 and higher? I like the idea behind it, I definitely think there should be some sort of draw back or chance of failure to trying to retreat
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
So meta lists with 1000 points or more in Guard mostly infantry are just wasting over half their points to power up that solo castellen? It's not like that list did well against a yannari list without the Castellen.
No, you're right. I guess everyone must have just hallucinated all those lists that just took minimum infantry squads and spent the rest on Knights, Custodes etc.
Being cheap and hence available in number makes units effective, everything wounds everything on a 6 now meaning 40 dice wounding on 6's is often better than 5 wounding on 4+, quantity has a quality all of its own.
Even in terms of cheap infantry, it's often not worth it. Kabalites are just 6pts now and are still rarely ever used.
Also you know that useless rule of ObSec, guess what 2 guardsmen at 8 points on an objective scoreeven with a 600 point enemy knight or such standing on the same objective.
Guess what, a knight standing next to two puddles of ichor that were once guardsmen. But don't worry - you can console yourself with the fact that those red smears have Objective Secured.
Most of these models do have weakness just marines suck at exploiting them, but thats more because short of expensive units marines threat level is pathetic for their point.
Except that the same point applies to most infantry, not just marines.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: I don't think Marines suck. Or, more accurately, I don't think Marines such significantly more than most other (troop) infantry in the game.
The issue with 40k is that there's rarely any value in even having infantry. What exactly does infantry do that makes them worth taking?
Outside of a few exceptions, infantry are basically just tanks - except slower and with significantly worse armour and firepower. There's basically nothing they can do that can't be done just as well (and usually much better) by vehicles or monsters. And please don't give me any crap about Objective Secured. Objective Secured is utterly worthless when your troops are smeared across the battlefield because you were stupid enough to bring infantry to a Mechwarrior fight.
What's more, infantry are almost always hampered by having to take garbage weapons on most members - which are useless against everything but infantry, and still pretty poor even then.
It's compounded even more by the fact that GW adamantly refuses to give most large models weaknesses. In virtually every case, they're vastly more durable than infantry and have vastly more firepower, but then they compound that by also being drastically more mobile. You have Imperial Knights that move at the same speed as Dark Eldar Raiders. Again, what is even the point of infantry? If Knights and such were at least slow, then they might need infantry to support them and go forward to capture objectives and such. But when Knights travel at the speed of Anime-Mechas, why would anyone bother?
Even IG Infantry Squads - probably the best infantry in the game at present - still only get used as a cheap way to generate CP, in order to fuel the Knights and such to actually do the legwork. Anything the infantry do on the battlefield after that is basically just a bonus.
If you want Space Marines to be worthwhile, then the first thing that needs to change is for Infantry to stop being treated as nothing more than target-practise for Knights. They need a meaningful role. Either go back to 5th and make it that only troops can capture objectives, or else give troops a way to punch above their weight class (at least under certain circumstances).
Further to this, I'd suggest that most/all Auras should only affect infantry. Stacking buffs is one of the things that actually makes a few infantry units worth taking. However, when a commander's aura is equally effective on infantry and vehicles, then you might as well stick with the one that packs more firepower by default.
So meta lists with 1000 points or more in Guard mostly infantry are just wasting over half their points to power up that solo castellen? It's not like that list did well against a yannari list without the Castellen.
Marine infantry squads suck, but that doesn't mean all infantry do.
Being cheap and hence available in number makes units effective, everything wounds everything on a 6 now meaning 40 dice wounding on 6's is often better than 5 wounding on 4+, quantity has a quality all of its own.
Also you know that useless rule of ObSec, guess what 2 guardsmen at 8 points on an objective scoreeven with a 600 point enemy knight or such standing on the same objective.
Most of these models do have weakness just marines suck at exploiting them, but thats more because short of expensive units marines threat level is pathetic for their point.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I think leaving combat should come with two conditions:
You must roll equal to or lower than your highest leadership in the unit.
If you roll under your LD you get away, no problem.
If you roll equal to your LD, you get away, but the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
If you roll above your LD, you are locked in combat for this turn.
It's simple, easy to use and doesn't complicate the game in any fashion.
Are they really that bad? I play my Primaris/Old Marine mix force about 4-5 times per month. They're quite fun and I have a fairly even win/loss rate with them. They likely don't do well at events, but every day games seem to be just fine.
Most of your points are salient and I agree with them.
They are pretty bad especially in tournaments and matched play. AT my store its mostly knight meta so marines just bellyflop when they face one.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I would up that considering they are literally right next to them so hits on 5+, 6+ would make sense if they are charging at you, not away from you. Its easier to hit someone in the back than someone running straight at you.
Ah! Of course. We had three knight players and they all abandoned Knights the moment the changes to Command points happened. So we never see even a single Knight in our games these days. That does make a huge difference!
No way is the D3 MW justified, seriously what is it with people and MW it's a garbage mechanic, should a landraider take 3MW just because it was touched by a poxwalker?
I dunno, I love the mechanic. And I think there should be danger in trying to leave combat. the Mortal wounds serve this puropse because there isn't some sort of attack of opportunity mechanic that would further bog the game down and waste time.
The mortal wounds can represent anything, in your example of the pox walker and the landraider, perhaps the poxwalker stuck the drive in the eye through a hole in the tank or some such. The point is, it's a quick and simple rule that makes combat much more deadly and the choice to leave harder for some players. Also, vehicals could have different rules, for example perhaps a vehicle could ignore the table and just leave, representing the ability of a land raider to drive over cc people.
Or forcing people to have a dice roll to see if they can exit combat... Not this automatic retreat. The opponent should have an opportunity to deal with your opponent trying to exit combat.
It is really bizarre that in order to assault you need to roll the dice to see whether you succeed and then the enemy gets to shoot you, but you can leave from the close combat automatically and with no risk at all. At minimum there should a CC equivalent of overwatch where the enemy gets to hit you but hits only on sixes.
I think leaving combat should come with two conditions:
You must roll equal to or lower than your highest leadership in the unit.
If you roll under your LD you get away, no problem.
If you roll equal to your LD, you get away, but the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
If you roll above your LD, you are locked in combat for this turn.
It's simple, easy to use and doesn't complicate the game in any fashion.
How would this factor in with a vast majority of units being LD 7 and higher? I like the idea behind it, I definitely think there should be some sort of draw back or chance of failure to trying to retreat
to be honest, I'm not sure. I'd be open to opinions.
I can tell you that we've run some test games in my group using this exact rule and haven't had any issues that seemed glaring with it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 23:25:28
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