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kingheff wrote: On the subject of guardsmen being fair at 4ppm, how does that compare to guardians at 8ppm?
For double the points guardians get 1" of movement, bs/ws 3 and 1ld with 12" guns that are slightly better once in range.
It's just more evidence to the guardsmen are brutally undercosted column.
And i'm laughing at people saying you can't assume guardsmen will have HQs. Dirt cheap HQs are (a) required and (b) dirt cheap so everyone brings them. You can't bring guardsmen without bringing an HQ, and when your HQ costs less than 50 points it's laughably easy.
People are also saying that marines are more defensible against small arms fire.
Consider the following gun:
Strength 2, AP0, 1dmg.
The worst gun for killing marines. Assuming it auto-hits (to make math easy), as it would hit guardsmen and marines equally -
It kills 0.72 points of marines per shot compared to 0.88 points of guardsmen. So the worst conceivable weapon to target marines, while being the best at targeting guardsmen, is only 23% more effective against guardsmen than it is marines.
Once you go up to strength 3 the guns kill marines faster than they kill guardsmen.
There is a real problem here. Guard players don't see it.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
kingheff wrote: On the subject of guardsmen being fair at 4ppm, how does that compare to guardians at 8ppm?
For double the points guardians get 1" of movement, bs/ws 3 and 1ld with 12" guns that are slightly better once in range.
Guardians have been overcosted since...ever. That said, I don't think they should be cheap, but they should add utility (these are after all, where the artisans and merchants and craftsmen of the Eldar serve) and be made more akin to Combat engineers than grunt infantry.
However, looking at combat potential, within their range, 10 naked Guardians are killing 3.33 Marines a turn, equivalent numbers of naked Guardsmen kill 1.06, and with an Officer providing FRFSRF are killing 2.06.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
The guardsmen fair a lot better if they use their 3x strength 4 melee attacks.
80 points of guardsmen backed by a trivially costed priest and straken will kill 50% more marines than guardians, on their melee alone. And fun fact: they can still FRFSRF before they charge. Derp. All in all they expect to wipe a squad of 10 marines.
Meanwhile the guardians don't even come close.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 21:52:25
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
pelicaniforce wrote: Guardians can deep strike into range and do pretty good damage. In gameplay they aren’t similar units at all.
Ok, let's go with dire avengers. Same as guardians but with 18" guns, 4+ save, 8ld and overwatch on a 5+. For nearly three times the points. So for 110 pts you get a squad of ten versus 27 guardsmen. Who do you think wins that fight?
kingheff wrote: On the subject of guardsmen being fair at 4ppm, how does that compare to guardians at 8ppm?
For double the points guardians get 1" of movement, bs/ws 3 and 1ld with 12" guns that are slightly better once in range.
It's just more evidence to the guardsmen are brutally undercosted column.
And i'm laughing at people saying you can't assume guardsmen will have HQs. Dirt cheap HQs are (a) required and (b) dirt cheap so everyone brings them. You can't bring guardsmen without bringing an HQ, and when your HQ costs less than 50 points it's laughably easy.
Moving goalpost are fun!
This is absolutely not the scenario you presented before, which was that Guardsmen could be assumed to always be S4 with 3 attacks and RF2 guns able to fight twice. You are welching into a different position here.
Yes, Guardsmen HQ's can be cheap and you have to bring them.
No, you are not getting S4 Guardsmen with 3 attacks with the dirt cheap HQ options, and you have to take a non-mandatory Elites unit as well. Not an expensive one, but they also do literally nothing else. You also have to be a specific sub-faction to get the S4. Not all Eldar have -1 to hit either
Yes you can potentially fight twice or have RF2 guns.
No, you cannot do both at the same time, you have to be within range of an officer to do so, and you need enough officers to go around.
Marmatag wrote: The guardsmen fair a lot better if they use their 3x strength 4 melee attacks.
80 points of guardsmen backed by a trivially costed priest and straken will kill 50% more marines than guardians, on their melee alone. And fun fact: they can still FRFSRF before they charge. Derp. All in all they expect to wipe a squad of 10 marines.
Meanwhile the guardians don't even come close.
Except at this point we're not talking 80pts. We're including HQ and Elites units and talking almost 200pts naked...
If we want to assume the Eldar player gets a Farseer (hey, Eldar *have* to take HQs too, just like IG) in the mix, ok, but we're being more than a wee bit disingenuous otherwise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 22:08:41
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Marmatag wrote: The guardsmen fair a lot better if they use their 3x strength 4 melee attacks.
80 points of guardsmen backed by a trivially costed priest and straken will kill 50% more marines than guardians, on their melee alone. And fun fact: they can still FRFSRF before they charge. Derp. All in all they expect to wipe a squad of 10 marines.
Meanwhile the guardians don't even come close.
Trivially costed? How much exactly?
35 priest and 75 for straken.
Further, no they can not do both orders, each 1 order per 1 squad per turn.
Respectively straken can issue 2 orders however he has to split them between two squads.
If he wants to give the same order twice that would be a relic slot.
Removed, Rule #1 - BrookM
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 22:36:27
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
kingheff wrote: On the subject of guardsmen being fair at 4ppm, how does that compare to guardians at 8ppm?
For double the points guardians get 1" of movement, bs/ws 3 and 1ld with 12" guns that are slightly better once in range.
It's just more evidence to the guardsmen are brutally undercosted column.
And i'm laughing at people saying you can't assume guardsmen will have HQs. Dirt cheap HQs are (a) required and (b) dirt cheap so everyone brings them. You can't bring guardsmen without bringing an HQ, and when your HQ costs less than 50 points it's laughably easy.
People are also saying that marines are more defensible against small arms fire.
Consider the following gun:
Strength 2, AP0, 1dmg.
The worst gun for killing marines. Assuming it auto-hits (to make math easy), as it would hit guardsmen and marines equally -
It kills 0.72 points of marines per shot compared to 0.88 points of guardsmen. So the worst conceivable weapon to target marines, while being the best at targeting guardsmen, is only 23% more effective against guardsmen than it is marines.
Once you go up to strength 3 the guns kill marines faster than they kill guardsmen.
There is a real problem here. Guard players don't see it.
But their is no S2 gun so its a useless advantage.
Exactly. And i'm not the one moving goalposts. I've been very straightforward in my prompt to guard players. You're the one attempting to shift the goalposts by saying unit buffs cannot be considered for balance. That is absurd.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Exactly. And i'm not the one moving goalposts. I've been very straightforward in my prompt to guard players. You're the one attempting to shift the goalposts by saying unit buffs cannot be considered for balance. That is absurd.
Marmatag wrote: The guardsmen fair a lot better if they use their 3x strength 4 melee attacks.
80 points of guardsmen backed by a trivially costed priest and straken will kill 50% more marines than guardians, on their melee alone. And fun fact: they can still FRFSRF before they charge. Derp. All in all they expect to wipe a squad of 10 marines.
Meanwhile the guardians don't even come close.
Trivially costed? How much exactly?
35 priest and 75 for straken.
Further, no they can not do both orders, each 1 order per 1 squad per turn.
Respectively straken can issue 2 orders however he has to split them between two squads.
If he wants to give the same order twice that would be a relic slot.
Removed, Rule #1 - BrookM
Just to repeat my point.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 22:36:56
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Marmatag wrote: Exactly. And i'm not the one moving goalposts. I've been very straightforward in my prompt to guard players.
As was directly shown above, this is simply not true.
You're the one attempting to shift the goalposts by saying unit buffs cannot be considered for balance. That is absurd.
Nobody is saying that.
What they are saying however is:
1: that if you're going to include buffs, you need to include the cost of the buffing stuff in the equation, not hand-wave it away. If comparing S4 A3 Catachan infantry with Orders to Guardians, you dont get to ignore the cost of the Priest and Straken when belting out about a mere 80pts.
2: the configuration buffs you're talking about are hardly universal or ubiquitous in all or even most Guard armies.
3: keep the comparisons consistent, dont talk about dirt cheap mandatory HQ's and then use examples involving Special Characters and Elites units.
If you're going to insist that Guardsmen all have S4 and 3 attacks, then we need to be talking about Catachan Straken lists, not Guardsmen in general.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 22:38:53
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
kingheff wrote: On the subject of guardsmen being fair at 4ppm, how does that compare to guardians at 8ppm?
For double the points guardians get 1" of movement, bs/ws 3 and 1ld with 12" guns that are slightly better once in range.
It's just more evidence to the guardsmen are brutally undercosted column.
And i'm laughing at people saying you can't assume guardsmen will have HQs. Dirt cheap HQs are (a) required and (b) dirt cheap so everyone brings them. You can't bring guardsmen without bringing an HQ, and when your HQ costs less than 50 points it's laughably easy.
People are also saying that marines are more defensible against small arms fire.
Consider the following gun:
Strength 2, AP0, 1dmg.
The worst gun for killing marines. Assuming it auto-hits (to make math easy), as it would hit guardsmen and marines equally -
It kills 0.72 points of marines per shot compared to 0.88 points of guardsmen. So the worst conceivable weapon to target marines, while being the best at targeting guardsmen, is only 23% more effective against guardsmen than it is marines.
Once you go up to strength 3 the guns kill marines faster than they kill guardsmen.
There is a real problem here. Guard players don't see it.
But their is no S2 gun so its a useless advantage.
Marmatag wrote: I don't care if you don't take me seriously.
Astra Militarum is the best faction in the game, in terms of tournament placings, and has been for some time.
If you can justify a 4 point model being strength 4, with 3 attacks, and having a rapid fire 2 gun and can fight twice, as well as go to ground, etc, i'd like to see it. I'll wait.
Because they're not 4ppm at that point, you're involving at least two buff characters, one of which is a named SC, a specific subfaction, and it can't do all those things at the same time (cant receive fix bayonets and frfsrf in the same turn).
If we're going to assume this as the basic starting point for Guardsmen, then we're going to have to assume "always on" Gman and Librarian & Chaplain support for Marines.
Dude the HQ's are auto include. Unlike lots of armies that only take HQ's because they have to. Just stop - you can't defend this crap. You do realize the HQ's are also extremely under-costed for what they do to right? For 30 points...they fill hq requirements (they could do nothing and still be worth 30 points) they also double the firepower of 2 40 points units...Sounds like 80 points of firepower to me for 30 points. Plus they have a 5++ (are you freaking serious?). Not even getting into the fact that they can also double the close combat ability of the same unit as well.
Like - I really want to take something other than IG to LVO. I really have no choice though. The units are just that much better that there is literally no choice if you are trying to win. It's disgusting. It's so obvious that I know you know it to. You just don't care cause it's your chosen faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 22:52:50
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
kingheff wrote: On the subject of guardsmen being fair at 4ppm, how does that compare to guardians at 8ppm?
For double the points guardians get 1" of movement, bs/ws 3 and 1ld with 12" guns that are slightly better once in range.
It's just more evidence to the guardsmen are brutally undercosted column.
And i'm laughing at people saying you can't assume guardsmen will have HQs. Dirt cheap HQs are (a) required and (b) dirt cheap so everyone brings them. You can't bring guardsmen without bringing an HQ, and when your HQ costs less than 50 points it's laughably easy.
People are also saying that marines are more defensible against small arms fire.
Consider the following gun:
Strength 2, AP0, 1dmg.
The worst gun for killing marines. Assuming it auto-hits (to make math easy), as it would hit guardsmen and marines equally -
It kills 0.72 points of marines per shot compared to 0.88 points of guardsmen. So the worst conceivable weapon to target marines, while being the best at targeting guardsmen, is only 23% more effective against guardsmen than it is marines.
Once you go up to strength 3 the guns kill marines faster than they kill guardsmen.
There is a real problem here. Guard players don't see it.
But their is no S2 gun so its a useless advantage.
Marmatag wrote: I don't care if you don't take me seriously.
Astra Militarum is the best faction in the game, in terms of tournament placings, and has been for some time.
If you can justify a 4 point model being strength 4, with 3 attacks, and having a rapid fire 2 gun and can fight twice, as well as go to ground, etc, i'd like to see it. I'll wait.
Because they're not 4ppm at that point, you're involving at least two buff characters, one of which is a named SC, a specific subfaction, and it can't do all those things at the same time (cant receive fix bayonets and frfsrf in the same turn).
If we're going to assume this as the basic starting point for Guardsmen, then we're going to have to assume "always on" Gman and Librarian & Chaplain support for Marines.
Dude the HQ's are auto include. Unlike lots of armies that only take HQ's because they have to. Just stop - you can't defend this crap. You do realize the HQ's are also extremely under-costed for what they do to right? For 30 points...they fill hq requirements (they could do nothing and still be worth 30 points) they also double the firepower of 2 40 points units...Sounds like 80 points of firepower to me for 30 points. Plus they have a 5++ (are you freaking serious?). Not even getting into the fact that they can also double the close combat ability of the same unit as well.
Like - I really want to take something other than IG to LVO. I really have no choice though. The units are just that much better that there is literally no choice if you are trying to win. It's disgusting. It's so obvious that I know you know it to. You just don't care cause it's your chosen faction.
If your last point would be a fact Chaos would run in all armies renegade and heretics detachments.
Guess what they don't do?
They don't run them and they are even cheaper the guard battalions.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
People don't run guard just to get CP. That is the ultimate dakka fallacy from people who don't understand competitive play, and only look at lists, doing basic math and twisting anything they can to suggest that guard aren't clearly the best faction in the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:02:00
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: 105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
So in your eyes exalted Champions are broken too because they grant full rerolls under 100pts for 1 model?
Just stop.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Marmatag wrote: 105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
So in your eyes exalted Champions are broken too because they grant full rerolls under 100pts for 1 model?
Just stop.
Full rerolls is NOTHING compared to TRIPLING attacks, and also having free +1 strength, and having 4 point infantry.
Giving marines full rerolls is also entirely different because the attack volume is a whole lot lower.
One marine with full rerolls: 1 attack 3 guardsmen with +attacks, and str: 9 attacks
guardsmen are STILL CHEAPER even factoring in buff toons. WUT
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:04:49
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: 105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
People don't run guard just to get CP. That is the ultimate dakka fallacy from people who don't understand competitive play, and only look at lists, doing basic math and twisting anything they can to suggest that guard aren't clearly the best faction in the game.
Asmodeus recently precented you the math even with this statement included. Infact he had shown that the more guard there was in soup the worse it's chances at a win were. ....
Marmatag wrote: 105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
So in your eyes exalted Champions are broken too because they grant full rerolls under 100pts for 1 model?
Just stop.
Full rerolls is NOTHING compared to TRIPLING attacks, and also having free +1 strength, and having 4 point infantry.
Giving marines full rerolls is also entirely different because the attack volume is a whole lot lower.
Also works on, gasp, cultists.
.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:05:03
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
kingheff wrote: On the subject of guardsmen being fair at 4ppm, how does that compare to guardians at 8ppm?
For double the points guardians get 1" of movement, bs/ws 3 and 1ld with 12" guns that are slightly better once in range.
It's just more evidence to the guardsmen are brutally undercosted column.
And i'm laughing at people saying you can't assume guardsmen will have HQs. Dirt cheap HQs are (a) required and (b) dirt cheap so everyone brings them. You can't bring guardsmen without bringing an HQ, and when your HQ costs less than 50 points it's laughably easy.
People are also saying that marines are more defensible against small arms fire.
Consider the following gun:
Strength 2, AP0, 1dmg.
The worst gun for killing marines. Assuming it auto-hits (to make math easy), as it would hit guardsmen and marines equally -
It kills 0.72 points of marines per shot compared to 0.88 points of guardsmen. So the worst conceivable weapon to target marines, while being the best at targeting guardsmen, is only 23% more effective against guardsmen than it is marines.
Once you go up to strength 3 the guns kill marines faster than they kill guardsmen.
There is a real problem here. Guard players don't see it.
But their is no S2 gun so its a useless advantage.
Marmatag wrote: I don't care if you don't take me seriously.
Astra Militarum is the best faction in the game, in terms of tournament placings, and has been for some time.
If you can justify a 4 point model being strength 4, with 3 attacks, and having a rapid fire 2 gun and can fight twice, as well as go to ground, etc, i'd like to see it. I'll wait.
Because they're not 4ppm at that point, you're involving at least two buff characters, one of which is a named SC, a specific subfaction, and it can't do all those things at the same time (cant receive fix bayonets and frfsrf in the same turn).
If we're going to assume this as the basic starting point for Guardsmen, then we're going to have to assume "always on" Gman and Librarian & Chaplain support for Marines.
Dude the HQ's are auto include. Unlike lots of armies that only take HQ's because they have to. Just stop - you can't defend this crap. You do realize the HQ's are also extremely under-costed for what they do to right? For 30 points...they fill hq requirements (they could do nothing and still be worth 30 points) they also double the firepower of 2 40 points units...Sounds like 80 points of firepower to me for 30 points. Plus they have a 5++ (are you freaking serious?). Not even getting into the fact that they can also double the close combat ability of the same unit as well.
Like - I really want to take something other than IG to LVO. I really have no choice though. The units are just that much better that there is literally no choice if you are trying to win. It's disgusting. It's so obvious that I know you know it to. You just don't care cause it's your chosen faction.
If your last point would be a fact Chaos would run in all armies renegade and heretics detachments.
Guess what they don't do?
They don't run them and they are even cheaper the guard battalions.
So you think people will take a worse option when they can have a much better option? With army traits and broken orders? Paying exactly the same? No - people don't even consider doing that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:07:31
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Marmatag wrote: 105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
So in your eyes exalted Champions are broken too because they grant full rerolls under 100pts for 1 model?
Just stop.
Full rerolls is NOTHING compared to TRIPLING attacks, and also having free +1 strength, and having 4 point infantry.
Giving marines full rerolls is also entirely different because the attack volume is a whole lot lower.
One marine with full rerolls: 1 attack
3 guardsmen with +attacks, and str: 9 attacks
guardsmen are STILL CHEAPER even factoring in buff toons. WUT
And this is how you do not make a comparison since you have no meassuring Element like points included for both sides nor the impact the charachters themselves would have, etc.
kingheff wrote: On the subject of guardsmen being fair at 4ppm, how does that compare to guardians at 8ppm?
For double the points guardians get 1" of movement, bs/ws 3 and 1ld with 12" guns that are slightly better once in range.
It's just more evidence to the guardsmen are brutally undercosted column.
And i'm laughing at people saying you can't assume guardsmen will have HQs. Dirt cheap HQs are (a) required and (b) dirt cheap so everyone brings them. You can't bring guardsmen without bringing an HQ, and when your HQ costs less than 50 points it's laughably easy.
People are also saying that marines are more defensible against small arms fire.
Consider the following gun:
Strength 2, AP0, 1dmg.
The worst gun for killing marines. Assuming it auto-hits (to make math easy), as it would hit guardsmen and marines equally -
It kills 0.72 points of marines per shot compared to 0.88 points of guardsmen. So the worst conceivable weapon to target marines, while being the best at targeting guardsmen, is only 23% more effective against guardsmen than it is marines.
Once you go up to strength 3 the guns kill marines faster than they kill guardsmen.
There is a real problem here. Guard players don't see it.
But their is no S2 gun so its a useless advantage.
Marmatag wrote: I don't care if you don't take me seriously.
Astra Militarum is the best faction in the game, in terms of tournament placings, and has been for some time.
If you can justify a 4 point model being strength 4, with 3 attacks, and having a rapid fire 2 gun and can fight twice, as well as go to ground, etc, i'd like to see it. I'll wait.
Because they're not 4ppm at that point, you're involving at least two buff characters, one of which is a named SC, a specific subfaction, and it can't do all those things at the same time (cant receive fix bayonets and frfsrf in the same turn).
If we're going to assume this as the basic starting point for Guardsmen, then we're going to have to assume "always on" Gman and Librarian & Chaplain support for Marines.
Dude the HQ's are auto include. Unlike lots of armies that only take HQ's because they have to. Just stop - you can't defend this crap. You do realize the HQ's are also extremely under-costed for what they do to right? For 30 points...they fill hq requirements (they could do nothing and still be worth 30 points) they also double the firepower of 2 40 points units...Sounds like 80 points of firepower to me for 30 points. Plus they have a 5++ (are you freaking serious?). Not even getting into the fact that they can also double the close combat ability of the same unit as well.
Like - I really want to take something other than IG to LVO. I really have no choice though. The units are just that much better that there is literally no choice if you are trying to win. It's disgusting. It's so obvious that I know you know it to. You just don't care cause it's your chosen faction.
If your last point would be a fact Chaos would run in all armies renegade and heretics detachments.
Guess what they don't do?
They don't run them and they are even cheaper the guard battalions.
So you think people will take a worse option when they can have a much better option? With army traits and broken orders? Paying exactly the same? No - people don't even consider doing that.
What better option, it was simply a fact that cheap hq that do nothing are not taken unlike your statement before which he said at 30 pts they could do nothing and still would be taken.
Which is as you understood incorrect, congratulations
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:10:14
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Marmatag wrote: 105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
So in your eyes exalted Champions are broken too because they grant full rerolls under 100pts for 1 model?
Just stop.
Full rerolls is NOTHING compared to TRIPLING attacks, and also having free +1 strength, and having 4 point infantry.
Giving marines full rerolls is also entirely different because the attack volume is a whole lot lower.
Also works on, gasp, cultists.
.....
So cultists who are currently 5ppm and can't get the Catachan bonus lines up with guardsmen being atleast 5ppm with Catachan pushing that to 6ppm. Or are you claiming 4ppm guardsmen are fine in comparison to 5ppm cultists?
Guard can also - while doing this - generate a ridiculous amount of CP to fuel whatever super heavy they stable onto their lists.
They also get infinite board control and denial.
They also get screens for all of their MUCH cheaper ranged shooting.
This is indefensible. Guard are winning GTs more than anyone else for a reason. And 2019 is coming up all Guard, too.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: 105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
So in your eyes exalted Champions are broken too because they grant full rerolls under 100pts for 1 model?
Just stop.
Full rerolls is NOTHING compared to TRIPLING attacks, and also having free +1 strength, and having 4 point infantry.
Giving marines full rerolls is also entirely different because the attack volume is a whole lot lower.
Also works on, gasp, cultists.
.....
So cultists who are currently 5ppm and can't get the Catachan bonus lines up with guardsmen being atleast 5ppm with Catachan pushing that to 6ppm. Or are you claiming 4ppm guardsmen are fine in comparison to 5ppm cultists?
Never, albeit World Eaters cultists could come close, fight twice with 3 attacks base and full rerolls, not to mention outflank and recycle if of course we go and don't contextualize.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
That is because you are ignoring the fact that a 4 point guardsmen is infinitely better than a heratic gaurdsmen for MULTIPLE reasons. Not only including army rules but access to the best allies in the game with the best army traits. When you get amazing units - a 30 point tax HQ would not be a big deal instead you get a unit that gives you 80 points of firepower. It literally insane that after over a year people are still defending this rubbish.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Guard can also - while doing this - generate a ridiculous amount of CP to fuel whatever super heavy they stable onto their lists.
They also get infinite board control and denial.
They also get screens for all of their MUCH cheaper ranged shooting.
This is indefensible. Guard are winning GTs more than anyone else for a reason. And 2019 is coming up all Guard, too.
Soup is not guard, again Asmodeus did show you the math for the soup lists, you just want a boogeyman.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Xenomancers wrote: That is because you are ignoring the fact that a 4 point guardsmen is infinitely better than a heratic gaurdsmen for MULTIPLE reasons. Not only including army rules but access to the best allies in the game with the best army traits. When you get amazing units - a 30 point tax HQ would not be a big deal instead you get a unit that gives you 80 points of firepower. It literally insane that after over a year people are still defending this rubbish.
So neither bloodletter bombs nor arhiman etc for Chaos soup are top Tier?
Guard can also - while doing this - generate a ridiculous amount of CP to fuel whatever super heavy they stable onto their lists.
They also get infinite board control and denial.
They also get screens for all of their MUCH cheaper ranged shooting.
This is indefensible. Guard are winning GTs more than anyone else for a reason. And 2019 is coming up all Guard, too.
Your going to loose it wgen you see how well the new vigilous guard formation are doing in GT's.
Tbf the shenanigans gw pulled with vigilus is going to bite us all in the ass like 7th edition formations did.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:15:24
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Guard can also - while doing this - generate a ridiculous amount of CP to fuel whatever super heavy they stable onto their lists.
They also get infinite board control and denial.
They also get screens for all of their MUCH cheaper ranged shooting.
This is indefensible. Guard are winning GTs more than anyone else for a reason. And 2019 is coming up all Guard, too.
Soup is not guard
"Soup is not guard."
This is what people say when they're tapping out.
It's a horrible argument and against the core design of 8th edition, attempting to justify overpowered units by saying that it's a fundamental flaw with the edition itself. If that's the case, let's rework the AP system entirely? Or what other pipe dreams do you have in regards to game balance?
The game is the game. Allies are a part of it.
"Mono is not 8th."
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Guard can also - while doing this - generate a ridiculous amount of CP to fuel whatever super heavy they stable onto their lists.
They also get infinite board control and denial.
They also get screens for all of their MUCH cheaper ranged shooting.
This is indefensible. Guard are winning GTs more than anyone else for a reason. And 2019 is coming up all Guard, too.
Soup is not guard
"Soup is not guard."
This is what people say when they're tapping out.
It's a horrible argument and against the core design of 8th edition, attempting to justify overpowered units by saying that it's a fundamental flaw with the edition itself. If that's the case, let's rework the AP system entirely? Or what other pipe dreams do you have in regards to game balance?
The game is the game. Allies are a part of it.
"Mono is not 8th."
Again missing the keypart that Asmodeus did show you with proof from statistics that the more points were invested in guard the lower the winrate for the top imperial souplists.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:18:57
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Marmatag wrote: 105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.
Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.
So in your eyes exalted Champions are broken too because they grant full rerolls under 100pts for 1 model?
Just stop.
Full rerolls is NOTHING compared to TRIPLING attacks, and also having free +1 strength, and having 4 point infantry.
Giving marines full rerolls is also entirely different because the attack volume is a whole lot lower.
Also works on, gasp, cultists.
.....
So cultists who are currently 5ppm and can't get the Catachan bonus lines up with guardsmen being atleast 5ppm with Catachan pushing that to 6ppm. Or are you claiming 4ppm guardsmen are fine in comparison to 5ppm cultists?
Never, albeit World Eaters cultists could come close, fight twice with 3 attacks base and full rerolls, not to mention outflank and recycle if of course we go and don't contextualize.
Wait what does world eaters getting +1 attack have to do with even remotely justify 4ppm guardsmen?
Guard can also - while doing this - generate a ridiculous amount of CP to fuel whatever super heavy they stable onto their lists.
They also get infinite board control and denial. They also get screens for all of their MUCH cheaper ranged shooting.
This is indefensible. Guard are winning GTs more than anyone else for a reason. And 2019 is coming up all Guard, too.
Soup is not guard
"Soup is not guard."
This is what people say when they're tapping out.
It's a horrible argument and against the core design of 8th edition, attempting to justify overpowered units by saying that it's a fundamental flaw with the edition itself. If that's the case, let's rework the AP system entirely? Or what other pipe dreams do you have in regards to game balance?
The game is the game. Allies are a part of it.
"Mono is not 8th."
Again missing the keypart that Asmodeus did show you with proof from statistics that the more points were invented in guard the lower the wirkte for the top imperial souplists.
Think before you type, Jesus.
Asmodeus's data was discredited. I've actually seen the best coast pairings data, and Guard is the number 1. They're also number 1 in ITC GTs/Majors, where in order to be faction:Astra Militarum, you need to have AM as your largest detachment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:19:58
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Again missing the keypart that Asmodeus did show you with proof from statistics that the more points were invested in guard the lower the winrate for the top imperial souplists.
