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They are useless as CC units, their anti-overwatch grenades are hardly ever going to be used. All they are are crap Intecessors that can jump about a lot, why you would take these instead of intecessors which are actually useful boggles the mind. I wonder what genius made the rules for this unit.

If Reivers had access to some real CC-weapon they'd fulfil a role as Primaris-CC unit. Right now they're not doing anything really, just ripping off Nightlords.

I'd say Mutilators are the most pointless unit. With their point decrease they are possibly not even bad per se, they're just... not needed. GW tried to justify them by taking away the obliterator's powerfist. But they're still just bad looking terminators.

Well the fact they can Deep strike, or grapple on gives them some purpose.

But I think they should have dropped in price for the CA also.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If Reivers had access to some real CC-weapon they'd fulfil a role as Primaris-CC unit. Right now they're not doing anything really, just ripping off Nightlords.

I'd say Mutilators are the most pointless unit. With their point decrease they are possibly not even bad per se, they're just... not needed. GW tried to justify them by taking away the obliterator's powerfist. But they're still just bad looking terminators.

Mutilators at least fit a role, its just their points that are gak. They couldn't make reivers a good unit, not unless they gave them access to CC weapons.

I do actually find Reivers work for me - I don't look for them to be a melee specialist unit, or even alpha striking. I see them as more mobile Intercessors with assault bolt rifle. I'd never want assault bolt rifle Intercessors when I can take Reivers instead.

I don't ask much of them, but I certainly wouldn't complain if they could have more specialised melee weapons.

Why would you want assault bolters, period? Especially ones that aren’t filling troop slots in a battalion for you. Reivers are the worst Primaris unit by a mile. Primaris in general need access to real CC weapons. Fists on sergeants is nice. Fists on characters isn’t enough; and power swords on lieutenants is hilariously bad.

Bremon wrote:
Why would you want assault bolters, period? Especially ones that aren’t filling troop slots in a battalion for you. Reivers are the worst Primaris unit by a mile. Primaris in general need access to real CC weapons. Fists on sergeants is nice. Fists on characters isn’t enough; and power swords on lieutenants is hilariously bad.

Lots of shots at short range? I find assault bolt rifles on Intercessors are lacklustre because they lack the maneuverability to make them have a function over regular bolt rifles.

Assault bolt rifles aren't great, but I find they have a role, and I put them on Reivers instead of Intercessors because A, they have more maneuverability, and B, I already have Intercessors, my Reivers are for my 10th Company Vanguard detachment.

Ok in a DW army if not spending a CP to drop a FKT, but not great

I'm guessing you'd take assault bolters if you want manoeuvrability and a guaranteed two shots rather than -1 ap? Assault bolters give marine armies good speed and the ability to jump around isn't game winning but good for winkling out objectives up high or getting up onto high cover with good fields of fire.
Eldar manage to make S4 assault 2 weapons, albeit with a slim chance of -3 ap, the backbone of their shooting and they're half decent from what I've heard.
Reivers seem like decent skirmishers, they can out melee most shooting units and out shoot most melee units with the manoeuvrability to get into advantageous situations. They're not a gold standard unit but they're hardly trash.

It is such a shame as they're really cool models. I really don't understand why GW wants them to be so bad. They gave the Intercessors (the shooty unit) an ability to upgrade them to have an extra attack and power sword or fist for a sergeant. Giving those two things would have instantly made the Reivers much better (not great, but better.) It is just crazy how much more capable the Intercesors are in the melee than the supposed melee unit.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Why would you want assault bolters, period? Especially ones that aren’t filling troop slots in a battalion for you. Reivers are the worst Primaris unit by a mile. Primaris in general need access to real CC weapons. Fists on sergeants is nice. Fists on characters isn’t enough; and power swords on lieutenants is hilariously bad.

Lots of shots at short range? I find assault bolt rifles on Intercessors are lacklustre because they lack the maneuverability to make them have a function over regular bolt rifles.

Assault bolt rifles aren't great, but I find they have a role, and I put them on Reivers instead of Intercessors because A, they have more maneuverability, and B, I already have Intercessors, my Reivers are for my 10th Company Vanguard detachment.

...but being able to come in on a board edge or deep strike makes the equivalent of a stormbolter at long range “fill a role”? Couldn’t disagree more. There are cheaper and more efficient ways to spam mass S4 small arms fire if that’s what floats your boat.

kingheff wrote:
I'm guessing you'd take assault bolters if you want manoeuvrability and a guaranteed two shots rather than -1 ap? Assault bolters give marine armies good speed and the ability to jump around isn't game winning but good for winkling out objectives up high or getting up onto high cover with good fields of fire.
Eldar manage to make S4 assault 2 weapons, albeit with a slim chance of -3 ap, the backbone of their shooting and they're half decent from what I've heard.
Reivers seem like decent skirmishers, they can out melee most shooting units and out shoot most melee units with the manoeuvrability to get into advantageous situations. They're not a gold standard unit but they're hardly trash.

...Are eldar spamming that S4 on 18 point models? Is that what’s winning them games? To be a “decent skirmisher” a reiver is at least 20 points. They are slightly modified generalists in a game that rewards specialists. “They can outmelee shooting units!”. So can a VV squad. “They can outshoot melee squads”... again, so can VV. “Theyre not a gold standard unit”. No, they’re not even a bronze standard unit; they’re trash. They’re more S4 attacks in a faction that has plenty of places to get S4 attacks, and they take an elite slot. As troops a case could be made for them. As elites, to call them a foolish choice is being generous.

They're an extremely underwhelming unit. I love models (I know many don't) but really struggle to justify taking them.

Give their knives some AP, make them power knives or something. That would help a lot.

Also I wish they hadn't nerfed their grapnels in the Big FAQ 2. I understand they don't want guaranteed charges from deep strike, but it was only possible in very specific circumstances and was at least a reason to take the unit. Now they have nothing.

Vanguard veteran units are great but you're paying almost the same points for single wound models that die, literally, twice as often as reivers.

I hate the fact that it seems like GW is trying to push Reivers with every Primaris box set. I think out of the 9 or so combined box sets 8 of them have Reivers in them...It's like 'we get it, you made too many Reiver models, we still don't want them'...

I really do like the models themselves though.

 Stux wrote:

Also I wish they hadn't nerfed their grapnels in the Big FAQ 2. I understand they don't want guaranteed charges from deep strike, but it was only possible in very specific circumstances and was at least a reason to take the unit. Now they have nothing.

How were the grapnels nerfed?

I don't get what the deal with them is. I'm quite an advocate of Reivers. 200pts gets you 10 2W 2A T4 dudes that can Deep Strike or Outflank/Ignore verticals, each with 3A and a decent Ap-1 pistol.

They're not miracle-makers I agree with you there, but they can be a decent harassment unit or to tie up the enemy big guns. I used a squad in one of my last games. They arrived in his deployment zone, took out 5 Tacticals holding an objective, which forced him to divert his Flamer Aggressors to take them out. I managed to kill 2 Aggressors in CC while losing a few Reivers, but it prevented his Aggressors doing anything else for the rest of the game.

They're pretty fun and fluffy in Killteam.

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Also I wish they hadn't nerfed their grapnels in the Big FAQ 2. I understand they don't want guaranteed charges from deep strike, but it was only possible in very specific circumstances and was at least a reason to take the unit. Now they have nothing.

How were the grapnels nerfed?

They now only work in the movement phase, just like FLY units got changed. So no grapnel charges.

 Stux wrote:

They now only work in the movement phase, just like FLY units got changed. So no grapnel charges.

Oh right... They really should have made the grapnels and grav chutes cheaper considering how much both have been nerfed.

If they had even -1 rend on their knives they could be useful. I think a rule like the Ork kommando throat slittas would upgrade them greatly. They are forward CC units, they need weapons and rules to match.

Their knives don't have AP for WYSIWYG reasons, they don't have power cords. If a chainsword doesn't have AP then a big knife certainly doesn't either. I know that giving them AP is a popular suggestion, but I think that is unlikely to happen for this reason. Giving them access to the same veteran upgrade and sergeant weapon options than the Intercesors would be an easy fix though.

 Crimson wrote:
Their knives don't have AP for WYSIWYG reasons, they don't have power cords. If a chainsword doesn't have AP then a big knife certainly doesn't either. I know that giving them AP is a popular suggestion, but I think that is unlikely to happen for this reason. Giving them access to the same veteran upgrade and sergeant weapon options than the Intercesors would be an easy fix though.

But like Buddha said, you could give the unit a special rule that their knife attacks are made at AP -1.

Fluff is that the unit are specially trained with knives to find critical weaknesses.

20pts inefficient melee and shoting hybdrid, when did I seen those. Well at least they have 2 wounds and not one. Would they be better if they got access to 2 fists per 5 dudes, or some sort of assault hellblaster weapon ?

Personally I'm not a huge fan of AP knives here. Where you see knives used in armored combat is when things get into grappling, usually once a fight has gone to the ground and typically involves controlling an appendage of some sort (head/arm/leg) and leveraging it to allow stabbing through a gap in the armor, really among the most chaotic, ugly, and desperate fighting one can get.

What a knife has in a fight over other weapons is speed and maneuver, if you can get properly stuck in, you can stick someone with a knife a dozen times in the same time it would take to thrust someone with a sword, withdraw, and thrust again (albeit from a much longer range). I think the +1A does fine there.

I think adding a different utility to Reivers may make them more interesting. Accent that terror troop role in a manner more directly related to mission victory, perhaps adding something anti-obsec, maybe not allowing enemy units within 6" to count as holding objectives (regardless of number or other scoring abilities) or something. Maybe something that turns off chatacter aura abilities as nearby troops are panicked or distracted. Their utility need not come from raw killing power. That could make them an interesting distraction unit that has lots of utility without having to be just another CC blender unit.

I picked up a box when they first came out, and frankly I wish I didn't right now. I love the unit's concept, and the ability to drop behind enemy lines to tie up the valuable units an enemy has in it's back line is nice.... but I just don't see them as effective enough to justify the elite slot. They are also a little on the high side points wise I think.

I really like the models and the fluff. So tend to include them in every army I have. I play primaris only and the grapple and deep strike rules are very handy in such a limited army. And their close combat abilities aren’t too bad if you pick a suitable target. I’ve had some very cool use out of the stun grenades too. I tend to use them to attack my opponents scout type units.

The fact they don't even have AP-1 on their knives but Ogryn do is silly.

I like the model a lot. Every time I look for the model I will use in a game, I see them and ask my self why they are supose to be an especialist cc unit.

Morale, okay, they Could kill one more due morale.
His pistols are AP -1, well, that`s something.
Shok grenade, well, helps a bit.

They have fly for a couple of points, thats good.
For another couple of points they can also deep strike.

They are not terrible, but they are not good for the points they cost. They need something more, cc weapons. More expensive but more powerfull.

Karol wrote:
20pts inefficient melee and shoting hybdrid, when did I seen those. Well at least they have 2 wounds and not one. Would they be better if they got access to 2 fists per 5 dudes, or some sort of assault hellblaster weapon ?

They're worse than strike squads in most ways if that's what you're inferring. That should tell you how poor Reivers are.

Reivers have no AP and if they want a bolter they can't have the knife, and it has half as many shots as a storm bolter in rapid fire range.

The extra wound isn't worth much if the unit isn't actually doing much of anything.

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
20pts inefficient melee and shoting hybdrid, when did I seen those. Well at least they have 2 wounds and not one. Would they be better if they got access to 2 fists per 5 dudes, or some sort of assault hellblaster weapon ?

They're worse than strike squads in most ways if that's what you're inferring. That should tell you how poor Reivers are.

Reivers have no AP and if they want a bolter they can't have the knife, and it has half as many shots as a storm bolter in rapid fire range.

The extra wound isn't worth much if the unit isn't actually doing much of anything.

And they aren't troops.