Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?

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**Talinsin**

Summary of thread so far:
"Reivers are terrible, because mathhammer."
"They have utility that isn't related to the mathhammer."
"They're the worst unit in the game, look at this math."
"They have great utility, math isn't everything in an objective game."
"Only offence and defense exists. Strategy is a lie, math is god."
...

**Asherian Command**

Their niche is filled by Scouts, who have more offensive power for the points and are more durable against anything D2 and above.

Prove me wrong.

Revilers fill a great place in space marine armies. They are great count as intercessors.

**Karthicus**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Del, your threads crack me up. They all are basically you giving an opinion then shouting down anyone who disagrees, whether they are right or wrong.

You mean like everyone else on here? Do you want me to root around looking for threads where you do the same because I have the time to do that. People think I'm more of an donkey-cave than I am, because all use donkey-cave level rudness when sly people subtly insult, but try and find a thread where I started incivility and you might find a handful but thats it. I'm just honest and don't deny doing anything that you all do in your "polite" way. I at least never hold an argument against someone, next time I speak with them I forget about it and be civil again because we all have heated arguments where we act like donkey-caves.

Let's try to take it down a notch my friend. My post didn't call you out, but I can see why you might have thought that since you are the main one still railing on. I was speaking in general about the fire being thrown here. If you feel you are being flamed you shouldn't respond with more flames. That doesn't advance the conversation at all does it? Nope.

And yes... people will think you are a jerk if you act like a jerk.... regardless of WHY you might be acting like a jerk. That shouldn't be shocking.

Back on the topic of Reivers.....

**Slayer-Fan123**

Talinsin wrote:
Summary of thread so far:
"Reivers are terrible, because mathhammer."
"They have utility that isn't related to the mathhammer."
"They're the worst unit in the game, look at this math."
"They have great utility, math isn't everything in an objective game."
"Only offence and defense exists. Strategy is a lie, math is god."
...

Except Scouts already filled that strategic niche.

Disruption as a strategy only matters if the unit doing said disruption is actually a threat.

**phillv85**

Talinsin wrote:
Summary of thread so far:
"Reivers are terrible, because mathhammer."
"They have utility that isn't related to the mathhammer."
"They're the worst unit in the game, look at this math."
"They have great utility, math isn't everything in an objective game."
"Only offence and defense exists. Strategy is a lie, math is god."
...

So much this.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Asherian Command wrote:

Their niche is filled by Scouts, who have more offensive power for the points and are more durable against anything D2 and above.

Prove me wrong.

Revilers fill a great place in space marine armies. They are great count as intercessors.

I DO like those skull helmets for maybe the Sergeants...

**Asherian Command**

Talinsin wrote:
Summary of thread so far:
"Reivers are terrible, because mathhammer."
"They have utility that isn't related to the mathhammer."
"They're the worst unit in the game, look at this math."
"They have great utility, math isn't everything in an objective game."
"Only offence and defense exists. Strategy is a lie, math is god."
...

They still aren't useful, if I can get better options that deal more damage outside of niche cases then they aren't worth taking. If they were faster, or had -ap weapons, or had more options that made them far more viable then they would be great, honestly, they just need an ability that ALWAYS prevents overwatch and great AP weapons like power axes, or power swords. I think someone put it that Primaris's major problem is their over specializations, in a codex filled with generalists they are the only specialists in the space marine army.

They can be a good unit they just don't have any utility outside of niche cases because their weapons currently are just very terrible. People only ever go for their ranged capabilities which are counter to what the unit wants to do which is get into close combat.

But this also addresses the issue that space marines, in general, do not deal enough damage in melee combat to actually matter.

**Ishagu**

Talinsin wrote:
Summary of thread so far:
"Reivers are terrible, because mathhammer."
"They have utility that isn't related to the mathhammer."
"They're the worst unit in the game, look at this math."
"They have great utility, math isn't everything in an objective game."
"Only offence and defense exists. Strategy is a lie, math is god."
...

Yep, this is pretty accurate.

Someone keeps bringing Scouts up. They are very good, as I have said, but you can't keep them off the board and are less durable. Reivers are different enough.

**Karthicus**

Talinsin wrote:
Summary of thread so far:
"Reivers are terrible, because mathhammer."
"They have utility that isn't related to the mathhammer."
"They're the worst unit in the game, look at this math."
"They have great utility, math isn't everything in an objective game."
"Only offence and defense exists. Strategy is a lie, math is god."
...

Accurate. Well played!

**Asherian Command**

Ishagu wrote:
You can't keep Scouts off the board. They are less durable.

Prove me wrong.

Scouts are a cheap unit that can be spammed easily, they also have heavy weapon options and tank killing weapons if they so choose. They also have sniper rifles which outrange reviers and have more general abilities that make them worth taking. They are also a great smoke screen unit!

**Slayer-Fan123**

Ishagu wrote:
You can't keep Scouts off the board. They are less durable.

Prove me wrong.

They're less durable to anything D2 and above. Did...did that really need any explanation?

**Delvarus Centurion**

Karthicus wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Del, your threads crack me up. They all are basically you giving an opinion then shouting down anyone who disagrees, whether they are right or wrong.

You mean like everyone else on here? Do you want me to root around looking for threads where you do the same because I have the time to do that. People think I'm more of an donkey-cave than I am, because all use donkey-cave level rudness when sly people subtly insult, but try and find a thread where I started incivility and you might find a handful but thats it. I'm just honest and don't deny doing anything that you all do in your "polite" way. I at least never hold an argument against someone, next time I speak with them I forget about it and be civil again because we all have heated arguments where we act like donkey-caves.

Let's try to take it down a notch my friend. My post didn't call you out, but I can see why you might have thought that since you are the main one still railing on. I was speaking in general about the fire being thrown here. If you feel you are being flamed you shouldn't respond with more flames. That doesn't advance the conversation at all does it? Nope.

And yes... people will think you are a jerk if you act like a jerk.... regardless of WHY you might be acting like a jerk. That shouldn't be shocking.

Back on the topic of Reivers.....

No people that pretend to be polite think that, I get along with people on here that don't do the whole pretence thing. "I never do that" even though there are tonnes of threads that show otherwise.

**Karthicus**

Asherian Command wrote:

They still aren't useful, if I can get better options that deal more damage outside of niche cases then they aren't worth taking. If they were faster, or had -ap weapons, or had more options that made them far more viable then they would be great, honestly, they just need an ability that ALWAYS prevents overwatch and great AP weapons like power axes, or power swords. I think someone put it that Primaris's major problem is their over specializations, in a codex filled with generalists they are the only specialists in the space marine army.

They can be a good unit they just don't have any utility outside of niche cases because their weapons currently are just very terrible. People only ever go for their ranged capabilities which are counter to what the unit wants to do which is get into close combat.

But this also addresses the issue that space marines, in general, do not deal enough damage in melee combat to actually matter.

My BT army begs to differ with that last part. Centurian Assault Dev lists that I am toying with right now have be absolutely melting a Chaos Khorne player, and a DA player I go up against the past month.

**Asherian Command**

Karthicus wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

They still aren't useful, if I can get better options that deal more damage outside of niche cases then they aren't worth taking. If they were faster, or had -ap weapons, or had more options that made them far more viable then they would be great, honestly, they just need an ability that ALWAYS prevents overwatch and great AP weapons like power axes, or power swords. I think someone put it that Primaris's major problem is their over specializations, in a codex filled with generalists they are the only specialists in the space marine army.

They can be a good unit they just don't have any utility outside of niche cases because their weapons currently are just very terrible. People only ever go for their ranged capabilities which are counter to what the unit wants to do which is get into close combat.

But this also addresses the issue that space marines, in general, do not deal enough damage in melee combat to actually matter.

My BT army begs to differ with that last part. Centurian Assault Dev lists that I am toying with right now have be absolutely melting a Chaos Khorne player, and a DA player I go up against the past month.

Centurions are not really normal marines... Assault Marines, Vanguard, all marines are missing the critical +1 attack on charge that was universal to all factions. It gave a severe advantage to those who charged into combat. It should've stayed honestly.

**Karthicus**

Asherian Command wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
You can't keep Scouts off the board. They are less durable.

Prove me wrong.

Scouts are a cheap unit that can be spammed easily, they also have heavy weapon options and tank killing weapons if they so choose. They also have sniper rifles which outrange reviers and have more general abilities that make them worth taking. They are also a great smoke screen unit!

But that's not what he is talking about is it? You start taking heavy weapons and the cost goes up a fair bit for starters, and staying back with sniper rifles (which is a loadout I include a lot) , or smoke screening is a totally different role from the Reivers being a backline disruption.

**Crimson**

Ishagu wrote:

I guess Columbus was wrong when he said the world was round because everyone else said otherwise? Oh wait

Everyone else didn't say otherwise. Scholars knew perfectly well that Earth was round; it had been known since the third century BC. They also knew how large Earth was, and thus dismissed Columbus' claims that he could sail to India as the voyage was obviously way too long. Columbus had made his own, completely erroneous, calculations about the size of the Earth, and assumed that it was much smaller than it actually was. If there had not been an unknown continent on his way, he and his men would have surely perished in the middle of the giant ocean. And he never even realised he had been wrong, he always though that he actually went to India. Columbus was a lucky idiot, much like a player winning games with Reivers.*

(* Ok, I will include them too, but I'm not under illusion that they're good. But I really like how they look, and I got the models, so I'm gonna use them in friendly games. It is fine to use bad units, just don't delude yourself about their actual worth.)

**Ishagu**

So to conclude this topic - Reivers are not the most pointless unit in the game.

**Karthicus**

Asherian Command wrote:
Karthicus wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

They still aren't useful, if I can get better options that deal more damage outside of niche cases then they aren't worth taking. If they were faster, or had -ap weapons, or had more options that made them far more viable then they would be great, honestly, they just need an ability that ALWAYS prevents overwatch and great AP weapons like power axes, or power swords. I think someone put it that Primaris's major problem is their over specializations, in a codex filled with generalists they are the only specialists in the space marine army.

They can be a good unit they just don't have any utility outside of niche cases because their weapons currently are just very terrible. People only ever go for their ranged capabilities which are counter to what the unit wants to do which is get into close combat.

But this also addresses the issue that space marines, in general, do not deal enough damage in melee combat to actually matter.

My BT army begs to differ with that last part. Centurian Assault Dev lists that I am toying with right now have be absolutely melting a Chaos Khorne player, and a DA player I go up against the past month.

Centurions are not really normal marines... Assault Marines, Vanguard, all marines are missing the critical +1 attack on charge that was universal to all factions. It gave a severe advantage to those who charged into combat. It should've stayed honestly.

I guess I missed the mark on your point. You are saying that in general SM isn't good enough in CC right? Well, between my crusader squad filled with Chain Swords and Combat Knifes, my Emperors Champion, Grimaldus, Ironclad Dread, and Certurian Assault.... looks to me like I can pack some punch in CC.

I will leave it at that since I am driving this off topic, but I don't think SM has a lack of CC punch - generally speaking.

**Asherian Command**

Karthicus wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
You can't keep Scouts off the board. They are less durable.

Prove me wrong.

Scouts are a cheap unit that can be spammed easily, they also have heavy weapon options and tank killing weapons if they so choose. They also have sniper rifles which outrange reviers and have more general abilities that make them worth taking. They are also a great smoke screen unit!

But that's not what he is talking about is it? You start taking heavy weapons and the cost goes up a fair bit for starters, and staying back with sniper rifles (which is a loadout I include a lot) , or smoke screening is a totally different role from the Reivers being a backline disruption.

Oh i agree. Scouts and Reivers occupy completely different roles.

The only unit that is similar are Vanguard Vets or Terminator Assault Squads or Death Company or Deathwing Knights. Reviers have competitors but they are the cheaper of those five, but are less effective due to have less of a load out. If reivers go down the shooty path they start to try to be the smokescreen unit, but they don't have the scout rules or abilities to make them anywhere near worthwhile compared to a scout squads potential load out.

Reivers are in a weird spot they CAN be good, but they need a bit of a push to make them viable. And because of that they are useless until they receive their proper melee unit upgrades. (Read Power Weapons)

**Crimson**

Ishagu wrote:
So to conclude this topic - Reivers are not the most pointless unit in the game.

Well, that is certainly true. They're still disappointingly bad.

**Asherian Command**

Ishagu wrote:
So to conclude this topic - Reivers are not the most pointless unit in the game.

No, the most useless unit in space marines are Vindicators. F8 me

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karthicus wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Karthicus wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

They still aren't useful, if I can get better options that deal more damage outside of niche cases then they aren't worth taking. If they were faster, or had -ap weapons, or had more options that made them far more viable then they would be great, honestly, they just need an ability that ALWAYS prevents overwatch and great AP weapons like power axes, or power swords. I think someone put it that Primaris's major problem is their over specializations, in a codex filled with generalists they are the only specialists in the space marine army.

They can be a good unit they just don't have any utility outside of niche cases because their weapons currently are just very terrible. People only ever go for their ranged capabilities which are counter to what the unit wants to do which is get into close combat.

But this also addresses the issue that space marines, in general, do not deal enough damage in melee combat to actually matter.

My BT army begs to differ with that last part. Centurian Assault Dev lists that I am toying with right now have be absolutely melting a Chaos Khorne player, and a DA player I go up against the past month.

Centurions are not really normal marines... Assault Marines, Vanguard, all marines are missing the critical +1 attack on charge that was universal to all factions. It gave a severe advantage to those who charged into combat. It should've stayed honestly.

I guess I missed the mark on your point. You are saying that in general SM isn't good enough in CC right? Well, between my crusader squad filled with Chain Swords and Combat Knifes, my Emperors Champion, Grimaldus, Ironclad Dread, and Certurian Assault.... looks to me like I can pack some punch in CC.

I will leave it at that since I am driving this off topic, but I don't think SM has a lack of CC punch - generally speaking.

We can start a new thread or you can check out my Power Armor Problem Thread.... Its a general "Whats wrong with space marines." has turned into a "Whats wrong with 8th edition."

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
So to conclude this topic - Reivers are not the most pointless unit in the game.

Well, that is certainly true. They're still disappointingly bad.

No, they ARE pointless.

The moment your niche is filled by another unit that does it significantly better, you're automatically pointless. That's how it works.

**Karthicus**

Asherian Command wrote:
Karthicus wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
You can't keep Scouts off the board. They are less durable.

Prove me wrong.

Scouts are a cheap unit that can be spammed easily, they also have heavy weapon options and tank killing weapons if they so choose. They also have sniper rifles which outrange reviers and have more general abilities that make them worth taking. They are also a great smoke screen unit!

But that's not what he is talking about is it? You start taking heavy weapons and the cost goes up a fair bit for starters, and staying back with sniper rifles (which is a loadout I include a lot) , or smoke screening is a totally different role from the Reivers being a backline disruption.

Oh i agree. Scouts and Reivers occupy completely different roles.

The only unit that is similar are Vanguard Vets or Terminator Assault Squads or Death Company or Deathwing Knights. Reviers have competitors but they are the cheaper of those five, but are less effective due to have less of a load out. If reivers go down the shooty path they start to try to be the smokescreen unit, but they don't have the scout rules or abilities to make them anywhere near worthwhile compared to a scout squads potential load out.

Reivers are in a weird spot they CAN be good, but they need a bit of a push to make them viable. And because of that they are useless until they receive their proper melee unit upgrades. (Read Power Weapons)

I can 100% get behind you on that. Personally, I would rather take a 10 man Term squad with TH/SS - even MORE so with the recent point adjustments - to pop up in the back line and make some heretics cry.

**Loafing**

Asherian Command wrote:

Reivers are in a weird spot they CAN be good, but they need a bit of a push to make them viable. And because of that they are useless until they receive their proper melee unit upgrades. (Read Power Weapons)

I'd rather they be pushed into a bit more supportive role.

Let shock grenades last until the start of your turn (infantry hit by 1 get -1 to hit and can't overwatch.

Let Reivers take auxiliary grenade launchers. Lets them "throw" grenades 30". Now they have good range on their grenade.

Rework Terror Troops to be enemies cannot control objectives if they're within 3" of Reivers.

Now if they're on an objective it means the enemy cannot take it until all Reivers are dead.

**Crimson**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
So to conclude this topic - Reivers are not the most pointless unit in the game.

Well, that is certainly true. They're still disappointingly bad.

No, they ARE pointless.

The moment your niche is filled by another unit that does it significantly better, you're automatically pointless. That's how it works.

Sure, they're pretty pointless. But "the most pointless unit in the game" is certainly hyperbole. There are more pointless units, Conscripts, for example.

**Asherian Command**

Loafing wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

Reivers are in a weird spot they CAN be good, but they need a bit of a push to make them viable. And because of that they are useless until they receive their proper melee unit upgrades. (Read Power Weapons)

I'd rather they be pushed into a bit more supportive role.

Let shock grenades last until the start of your turn (infantry hit by 1 get -1 to hit and can't overwatch.

Let Reivers take auxiliary grenade launchers. Lets them "throw" grenades 30". Now they have good range on their grenade.

Rework Terror Troops to be enemies cannot control objectives if they're within 3" of Reivers.

Now if they're on an objective it means the enemy cannot take it until all Reivers are dead.

They won't be a supportive role, there are no 'supportive' roles in space marine armies that isn't a character. Reivers are the future of space marines and we will see them become what they are emphasizing which close assault / close combat monsters.

Give it an edition and they will have their special close combat weapons.

**Karthicus**

Loafing wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

Reivers are in a weird spot they CAN be good, but they need a bit of a push to make them viable. And because of that they are useless until they receive their proper melee unit upgrades. (Read Power Weapons)

I'd rather they be pushed into a bit more supportive role.

Let shock grenades last until the start of your turn (infantry hit by 1 get -1 to hit and can't overwatch.

Let Reivers take auxiliary grenade launchers. Lets them "throw" grenades 30". Now they have good range on their grenade.

Rework Terror Troops to be enemies cannot control objectives if they're within 3" of Reivers.

Now if they're on an objective it means the enemy cannot take it until all Reivers are dead.

I think these would be some nice changes. It would really improve their standing in an asset denial role.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
So to conclude this topic - Reivers are not the most pointless unit in the game.

Well, that is certainly true. They're still disappointingly bad.

No, they ARE pointless.

The moment your niche is filled by another unit that does it significantly better, you're automatically pointless. That's how it works.

Sure, they're pretty pointless. But "the most pointless unit in the game" is certainly hyperbole. There are more pointless units, Conscripts, for example.

To be fair, we have to thank CA2018 for the Conscript mess. Otherwise in the codex they were...alright.

**Bremon**

Ishagu wrote:
No stratagem required to deliver them. People are completely missing this aspect. Scouts are certainly not more durable as you'll need to pay for camo cloaks to even get the same save in cover, and ignore cover isn't hard to com by either.
Get Reivers into position on turn 2 or 3 when the opposing player's fiepower has been diminished.

10 wounds in cover with a 2+ save become very hard to dislodge when your army is reduced to half it's size and the most threatening units have been dealt with.
10 points per wound delivered behind enemy lines without the use of Strats or Transport. They job is NOT to kill tough units.

So many haters in here who don't really understand the game and only measure the effectiveness of something by how many models it can kill. . Maybe stop following tournament meta lists and play for yourself and see.
These guys certainly aren't the best infantry in the Imperium's arsenal, but if all you care about is the top choice then you'd be better be playing Guard with a Castellan. I play more often than most and see the finer details that a lot seem to miss, but it's fine to ignore them. There are plenty of meta lists online for people to copy.

Congratulations on your superior intellect and tactical acumen. Truly the great tacticians of history have nothing on you. I’m sure GW will find solace in selling Reivers solely to geniuses such as yourself, while the masses of idiots like myself leave them on the shelf because they’re garbage and unusable without a PhD in 40k.

**Stux**

Ishagu wrote:
It's more disappointing that anything - the amount of negativity and refusal to accept a different viewpoint.

I guess Columbus was wrong when he said the world was round because everyone else said otherwise? Oh wait

People should experiment and try new things, not dismiss them. Remember what I said - Reivers are NOT the best unit by any stretch, but they have a strategic niche that can be useful. That is all. Outright dismissal as seen in this topic is outright stupidity on show.

Oh and I agree with above, if they were troops they'd be a lot more attractive at a glance!

Your first post was pretty condescending. You don't get to make sweeping negative judgements about people and then take the moral high ground when they don't like it.

You could have made your point differently. Maybe people would have reacted differently, and not dismissed it, if they didn't feel you were talking down to them. Sure, maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, but now we'll never know.

(For the record, there are people on both sides getting disproportionately personal and emotional about this now. I'm not putting this all on you by any means, just trying to demonstrate the other viewpoint.)