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 Ghaz wrote:
I believe this covers the situation. From page 177 of the main rulebook:

Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.

Once you've chosen a unit to disemark you kust move then unit at that time if you wish to do do as you have no permission to chose that unit again in the Movement phase.

Chosing an Astra Militarum imperial officer to give an order (Action A) doesn't prevent him from being chosen to shoot at a later point in the movement phase (Action B).

Chosing a unit to disembark (Action A) doesn't prevent it from being chose to move at any point of your convenience during the movement phase (Action B). Indeed, the disembark rule explicitly states you can. Without any restrictions or stipulations that it would have to do so immediately after disembarking. If you chose not to use Action B at any point during the movement phase, there is an additional restriction that the unit still behaves as if you'd chosen Action B in the movement phase, even if you didn't.

I've shown where the rule for the Movement phase states that you pick "... another unit...". Please provide a quote as to where you can pick the same unit again.

 Ghaz wrote:
I've shown where the rule for the Movement phase states that you pick "... another unit...". Please provide a quote as to where you can pick the same unit again.

The disembarking rule. It says a unit that disembarked can move normally in the same turn. To move normally, you pick the unit and move as described in the core rules. It makes no restrictions on when in the movement phase you do so. It can be before or after any other units you pick in your army to move during the movement phase.

Also, disembarking is not a "pick for movement". You cannot "pick a unit" to move in the movement phase that isn't on the table. It has to be set up on your table from your reinforcements following the rules for disembarking in order to be eligible to be "picked" for the first time to begin with.

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge,
fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn

But even if you (falsely) think that disembark counts as a "pick for movement", the explicit rule for disembarking that it can later move normally, would in effect be a permission to pick the unit again, because otherwise you couldn't move. And it doesn't state anywhere this happens immediately.

If you think a unit can be picked to move in the movement phase after disembarking, it can do at any time. Doing it right after you set up the unit via the disembark rules doesn't magically change any of the wordings or rules we are discussion. Assuming the unit is allowed to move, it can do at any time during the movement phase. Assuming it isn't allowed, it couldn't do it, even if you tried to "pick the unit" immediately after setting up within 3" of a transport without moving anything else inbetween.

I agree with Sunny Side Up.

Firstly because of the exact wording of disembark rule in question.

Secondly because this "counts as having moved" -part is quite clearly implied toward heavy weapons to give -1 to-hit modifier and not to restrict further actions, as the moving, shooting, charging and fighting are specifically allowed after the disembarking.

Thirdly because if you just read the whole paragraph of disembarking rule there really can't be any argument about this, just basic reading comprehension needed:

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don't move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).

So the rule itself clearly states the counts as having moved is applied only after the movement phase if the unit did not move after disembarking. So the "can't move twice" -rule is never broken to begin with because the unit actually moves when player activates it in moving phase to move, disembarking itself is counted as moving only if the unit does not move during movement phase. Disembark itself is never characterised as moving, functional verb is 'set up' in previous paragraph in the rulebook (not presented here).

EDIT: 1. Added the 3rd point. 2. Modified layout 3.-4. Grammar corrections. 5. Added extra clarifications to end

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

Sorry but that doesn't say that you can choose them again. All it says is that disembarking has no impact on moving, shooting, charging, fighting, etc. It in no way implies that you can ignore the rule that you can only choose a unit once during the Movement phase.

 Ghaz wrote:

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

Sorry but that doesn't say that you can choose them again. All it says is that disembarking has no impact on moving, shooting, charging, fighting, etc. It in no way implies that you can ignore the rule that you can only choose a unit once during the Movement phase.

Where does that idea come from that I have to choose them again?

I choose them once. One time only. But I can do that at any time, including after moving the transport that was used to set them up according to the disembark rules and/or selecting any other unit I want to move.

Sorry, but it doesn't say that you choose them (the one and only time you choose them to move) at any particular time in the movement phase or in any fixed order with other units chosen to move in the movement phase.


Or, alternatively, I can opt to not choose them at all. I have chosen them zero times. In that case, the other rule kicks in saying they still count as having moved.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

Sorry but that doesn't say that you can choose them again. All it says is that disembarking has no impact on moving, shooting, charging, fighting, etc. It in no way implies that you can ignore the rule that you can only choose a unit once during the Movement phase.

Where does that idea come from that I have to choose them again?

I choose them once. One time only. But I can do that at any time, including after moving the transport that was used to set them up according to the disembark rules and/or selecting any other unit I want to move.

Sorry, but it doesn't say that you choose them (the one and only time you choose them to move) at any particular time in the movement phase or in any fixed order with other units chosen to move in the movement phase.


Or, alternatively, I can opt to not choose them at all. I have chosen them zero times. In that case, the other rule kicks in saying they still count as having moved.

Because you already chose them when you disembarked.

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Because you already chose them when you disembarked.

No. I haven't. I merely set them up on the board.

You cannot choose a unit to move that isn't on the battlefield. You need to disembark for the unit to be even eligible to be chosen to move (for the first time).

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Because you already chose them when you disembarked.

No. I haven't. I merely set them up on the board.

You cannot choose a unit to move that isn't on the battlefield. You need to disembark for the unit to be even eligible to do so.

"When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain. Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes". If you don't move them immediately (which is what the "can then" is giving you permission to do), they count as having moved, thus you cannot select them again.

Can we just agree to disagree and wait for GW to waste time FAQing something that is blatantly obvious but people have a hard time understanding anyway?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Because you already chose them when you disembarked.

No. I haven't. I merely set them up on the board.

You cannot choose a unit to move that isn't on the battlefield. You need to disembark for the unit to be even eligible to do so.

" if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes". If you don't move them immediately, they count as having moved, thus you cannot select them again.

No. They don't immediately count as having moved.

They count as having moved, if (!!!) I don't move them in the movement phase (which is a condition that can only be decided for certain at the end of the movement phase anyhow). They don't count as having moved during the movement phase. They also don't "count as" having moved if I actually choose to activate and move them, because than they actually moved.

And if a unit is given the permission that it "can move", it would need to be chosen to move anyhow. If the rule you quote would prevent that, it would prevent that in all cases, whether you select it immediately after disembarking (when it would be immediately count as having moved according to you) just the same as it would after moving three other units.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain. Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes". If you don't move them immediately (which is what the "can then" is giving you permission to do), they count as having moved, thus you cannot select them again.

Can we just agree to disagree and wait for GW to waste time FAQing something that is blatantly obvious but people have a hard time understanding anyway?

You have never picked disembarked unit to move. It never says that. You are making stuff up.

When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain. Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

This is the act of disembarking. Show me where does it say the disembarked unit was picked for moving?

Also note that the last sentence refers to every disembarked unit categorically. Unit is singular while units is plural, do you understand this? Rules do not allow moving multiple units at the same time anyway so the rule in question here cannot force you to move the disembarked units at the same time:

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

Units act normally... during the remainder of their turn.

This clearly says that every disembarked unit acts like any other unit during movement phase. And remember, the rule never says the disembarked units moved during disembarking or was picked for moving. Therefore the player has no obligation to execute disembarked unit's movement straight after disembarking because the unit was never picked for moving during disembarking.

..if you don't move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes..

So they only count as moved due to disembarking if the player does not move with them otherwise. Then if you move them they have moved and we are back to perfectly normal situation.

This matter is clear as water, nothing to argue about. Sunny Side Up is correct.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

Sorry but that doesn't say that you can choose them again. All it says is that disembarking has no impact on moving, shooting, charging, fighting, etc. It in no way implies that you can ignore the rule that you can only choose a unit once during the Movement phase.

Did you even read my post right above yours? It directly proves your argument wrong with clear rules quote.

If you didn't choose the unit to disembark, how did you disembark them?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you didn't choose the unit to disembark, how did you disembark them?

By setting it up on the table from your reinforcements according to the rules for disembarking. Nowhere does it say a unit is selected to move in order to be deployed mid-game. Most other types of mid-turn/game deployments actually don't have the permissive exception that allows you to pick the unit to move at all, if it was deployed during a game turn.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you didn't choose the unit to disembark, how did you disembark them?

Easily. The rule does not require me to choose/pick/select the unit to disembark it:

Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. ..

I do not need to choose/pick/select unit to disembark it. I can just merely set up (=place) the unit on the battlefield, informing my opponent what is happening. Only requirement is that the transport has not moved. Otherwise I can disembark the unit normal 3" within transport, then I can continue my movement phase by picking units to move as I wish and then later disembark more units if I so will, as long as the transport in question has not moved.

By that same logic I can have my dice have a 6 on each side because the rule doesn't require me to have my dice labelled 1 through 6. The game requires a minimum level of English parsing to work.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By that same logic I can have my dice have a 6 on each side because the rule doesn't require me to have my dice labelled 1 through 6. The game requires a minimum level of English parsing to work.

Game also requires basic reading comprehension skills, willfully demonstrated by you.

Anyway, my logic is sound. Moving unit demands unit to picked to be moved, one at a time. Disembarking does not demand unit to be picked in manner that would mean unit was picked for moving. It's just placed within 3" of the transport during movement phase before the transport moves at active players disgression. Surely you do understand difference between "set up" and "pick for moving"? Of course setting up the unit includes someone to physically "pick up" the unit to place it on table, but within context of the rules RAW the disembarking unit is never picked for purpose of moving during disembarking.

/Thread

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By that same logic I can have my dice have a 6 on each side because the rule doesn't require me to have my dice labelled 1 through 6. The game requires a minimum level of English parsing to work.

That is just willful nonsense.


Issuing an order with an Imperial Guard officer, does not prevent it to be picked, once, to shoot in the same shooting phase either.

The models of a unit that is set up on the battle field hasn't moved "in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet".

The fluff might be the soldiers shouting Go! Go! Go! and running out of a hatch, just as Genestealer Cult Ambush has them crawling out of sewers and hiding places, but the models don't actually move. They are just deployed in a type of mid-game deployment that requires them to be within 3" of a different specific game piece (the transport).

If the transport is surrounded at 1" by enemy models, I can still deploy within 3" and outside of 1" of those enemy models, even though the disembarking unit couldn't move through that enemy unit sitting between the transport and their deployment spot, if it were a move. I can disembark things like Deathwatch bikers on one side of a 10 foot high, 1" wide wall, even though their transport is on the other side of that wall and as bikes they couldn't move through that wall, if it were a move.

You're not physically moving models as per the movement rules into and out of the transport model when you disembark and embark. The are set up on the table or are removed from the table and set to the side following specific rules, and those rules aren't "movement".

And after the movement phase is concluded, you ask yourself a simple question:

Has the disembarked unit moved (at any point) in the movement phase?

If yes, the final restriction of the disembark rule doesn't even come into play, because the "if-condition" isn't satisfied. The unit was activated one time (of the players chosing) in the movement phase,

If no, the final restriction of the disembark rule kicks in and the unit counts as having moved, despite being activated zero times in the movement phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By that same logic I can have my dice have a 6 on each side because the rule doesn't require me to have my dice labelled 1 through 6. The game requires a minimum level of English parsing to work.

Posting fallacies with implied insults to the intelligence of others does not strengthen your case. It weakens it. Please stop this behaviour and actually discuss the arguments posited politely.

Show us where “being chosen to disembark” is the same as “selected to move” in the rules. It is never shown to be synonymous, which your hot take relies on. Some proof of your stance in the RAW, which you supposedly always adhere to, would be great. It reads awful lot like what you wish the rules said, with insults thrown if people disagree. That is not the same as RAW.

Disembark spells out that after disembarking a unit can act normally. That would include being selected to move, one of the things it says is included in this “act normally” permission. Nothing says disembarking equals being selected to move - the opposite is directly inferred.

Once again, set out your stall, argue politely, drop the fallacies and don’t insult people via backhanded comments should you be on a sticky wicket. It’s incredibly unhelpful and adds nothing to the thread, and usually results in the mods locking a topic people were legitimately discussing but which you have derailed.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

No. They don't immediately count as having moved.

They count as having moved, if (!!!) I don't move them in the movement phase (which is a condition that can only be decided for certain at the end of the movement phase anyhow). They don't count as having moved during the movement phase. They also don't "count as" having moved if I actually choose to activate and move them, because than they actually moved.

And if a unit is given the permission that it "can move", it would need to be chosen to move anyhow. If the rule you quote would prevent that, it would prevent that in all cases, whether you select it immediately after disembarking (when it would be immediately count as having moved according to you) just the same as it would after moving three other units.

But the disembark rule spells it out that they do count as having moved for all rules purposes. Some of you appear to believe that this is only for heavy weapons purposes but that is given as one example. The caveat FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES cannot be ignored. Whether you picked them to move or not. The instant they are set up on the battlefield via disembark they have moved. You are permitted to move them again but if you fail to do that immediately then you can't do it again later.

You are all spending too much time focusing on the disembark rule alone. In the movement phase you have to include the effect of the movement phase rules in conjunction with the disembark rule

 Nithaniel wrote:


But the disembark rule spells it out that they do count as having moved for all rules purposes. Some of you appear to believe that this is only for heavy weapons purposes but that is given as one example. The caveat FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES cannot be ignored. Whether you picked them to move or not. The instant they are set up on the battlefield via disembark they have moved. You are permitted to move them again but if you fail to do that immediately then you can't do it again later.

You are all spending too much time focusing on the disembark rule alone. In the movement phase you have to include the effect of the movement phase rules in conjunction with the disembark rule

No. The disembark rule spells out that they do count as having moved for all rules purposes IF a certain condition is met. Namely, IF (IF, IF, IF, IF) they haven't moved in the movement phase.

Not sure why people have such a problem with the if condition.

If (IF, IF, IF) I actually do move them normally in the movement phase (with no stipulations when exactly in the movement phase), that part of the disembark rule doesn't ever even apply, because the IF condition isn't met.


A plasma gun kills the model that uses it (for all rules purposes) IF you roll a 1 when rolling to hit.

You cannot simply ignore the If condition and kiil every model on the table with a plasma gun, whether they ever even rolled to hit or not.

Sunny Side Up wrote:


No. The disembark rule spells out that they do count as having moved for all rules purposes IF a certain condition is met. Namely, IF (IF, IF, IF, IF) they haven't moved in the movement phase.

This is not true.
When you say 'IF' condition do you mean the following sentence?
' Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.'
I don't think this IF condition is as you have interpreted it. You appear to be saying the if condition only applies if you choose to move them further. This is not true. It is instructing you that if you choose to disembark a model then it counts as having moved. It is not saying after you have disembarked, if you choose to move the model further then it counts as having moved.

If you disembark a heavy weapon toting dude and don't move them further do you think they count as having moved for the purposes of -1 to hit when shooting?

 Nithaniel wrote:

You appear to be saying the if condition only applies if you choose to move them further. This is not true. It is instructing you that if you choose to disembark a model then it counts as having moved. It is not saying after you have disembarked, if you choose to move the model further then it counts as having moved.

If you disembark a heavy weapon toting dude and don't move them further do you think they count as having moved for the purposes of -1 to hit when shooting?

The other way around.

It says if you DON'T move the model in the movement phase, it counts as having moved. That is the important part.

Without that rule, a unit that only disembarked but doesn't actually move (i.e. is selected to move (at any given point) in the movement phase per the normal movement rules) would not count as having moved, precisely because it was never picked to move and only disembarked, which doesn't count as moving. Because it is clearly not moving. Why would it count as moving?

However, if you actually DO move a unit (at any point of your convenience) in the movement phase, the IF-condition is NOT triggered and the entire rule does not apply.

Hypothetically, if this if-conditioned rule would not exist and you would disembark a heavy-weapon Marine (but not move him), he clearly would not get a -1. He wasn't ever selected to move in the movement phase, obviously.

That is the reason ALL (I think) rules dealing with reinforcements have a clause that says a unit "counts as" if it had moved. Because for the most part, these units never actually move (largely because they aren't allowed to) and wouldn't suffer any move-related penalties without these extra caveats added as extra "counts as having moved" rules.

If setting up units on the table would naturally or intrinsically be a movement phase activation, those "counts as" rules wouldn't be necessary.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By that same logic I can have my dice have a 6 on each side because the rule doesn't require me to have my dice labelled 1 through 6. The game requires a minimum level of English parsing to work.

Posting fallacies with implied insults to the intelligence of others does not strengthen your case. It weakens it. Please stop this behaviour and actually discuss the arguments posited politely.

Show us where “being chosen to disembark” is the same as “selected to move” in the rules. It is never shown to be synonymous, which your hot take relies on. Some proof of your stance in the RAW, which you supposedly always adhere to, would be great. It reads awful lot like what you wish the rules said, with insults thrown if people disagree. That is not the same as RAW.

Disembark spells out that after disembarking a unit can act normally. That would include being selected to move, one of the things it says is included in this “act normally” permission. Nothing says disembarking equals being selected to move - the opposite is directly inferred.

Once again, set out your stall, argue politely, drop the fallacies and don’t insult people via backhanded comments should you be on a sticky wicket. It’s incredibly unhelpful and adds nothing to the thread, and usually results in the mods locking a topic people were legitimately discussing but which you have derailed.

To go further, it states the unit can act normally in the Movement phase. It does not state that it must move directly after disembarking, which it would if that was required. It can act normally at any time in the movement phase after it has disembarked.

I don't get where these weird conclusions are even coming from.

Let's try a simile.


Student only have one attempt at the Math exam.Students can only take the math exam one at a time.

Students checking into school can then take exams (Math, English, Science,) normally during the remainder of the week. Note though, that even if a student does NOT take the math exam on Monday, they still count as having taken the math exam for all grading purposes.

- Absolutely nothing in that rule prevents a student from actually taking the math exam on Monday (in fact, it explicitly gives permission).
- Absolutely nothing in the rule indicates that said student would then be considered having taken two tries or two attempts at the math exam.
- Absolutely nothing in the rule states that checking into school would magically already be considered his/her one attempt at the math exam.
- Absolutely nothing in the rule states that the student would have to take the math exam immediately after checking in.



Units can only be activated to move once. Units are activated/selected to move one at a time

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, ...


- Absolutely nothing in that rule prevents a unit from actually moving in the movement phase (in fact, it explicitly gives permission).
- Absolutely nothing in the rule indicates that said unit would be considered having taken two movement activations.
- Absolutely nothing in the rule states that disembarking would magically already be considered your single movement activation for that unit.
- Absolutely nothing in the rule states that the unit would have to be activated to move immediately after disembarking.

The rule that a unit that disembarks counts having moved even if they don't move during the Movement phase is irrelevant as to when they need to move during the Movement phase. As noted by others, you only need to check this after the Movement phase has ended.

The question is does the unit need to move immediately after it is setup per Disembark?

There is no guidance in the rule itself. It does not direct you to immediately move the unit after it is setup. It does not state that a unit embarked in a Transport can be selected to move and is then setup within all models within 3" of the transport, etc. This is at worst a grey area where intent is not explicitly stated. Going strictly by the words in the rules, there is no reason you can't wait until later in the turn to select that unit to move.