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Hey folks!

I'm getting into 40k. A few months ago, I asked my buddy Hulksmash to help me put together an Ultramarine Army List for me that was low model count but not a breeze to wipe off the table - so I could get into 40k with a few models, and not be overwhelmed with time management trying to learn and practice turns moving, shooting, assaulting. I start buying things to get the first 500 points going. Chapter Approved is here, and my planned bolter-heavy army is about to get more bolterlicious with the new Bolter rule

I'm working on these first 500 points to learn 40k in 8th edition. I have no local meta to build against, so am just trying to cover all the bases in a TAC army - this is the final form of my 500 and 2,000 point army lists. Each of these units is a themed angry marine diorama, for which I'll have proxies in case I run into "those people" at tournaments who don't like my conversions. For example, here's the Captain from the Patrol Detachment. That angry man has a stormbolter built into his thunderhammer. A Thunderstorm Hampter(tm).





The man has a story, a name, and even his cloak has a rich history. But for now, here's the army list. I can't promise this will make any GT top tables, but I'LL LOOK ****ING ANGRY while I do my best.


500 points

Patrol Detachment
HQ1: Captain: Jump Pack, Stormbolter, Thunderhammer, Armor Indomitus
TC1: Scout Squad: 4x Sniper Rifle Scouts + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle + Boltgun.
EL1: Aggressor Squad: 2x Boltstorm/Fragstorm Aggressors + 1x Sergeant
FA1: Scout Bike Squad: 3x Scout Bikers (Twin Boltgun & Astartes Shotgun & Bolt Pistol) + Sergeant (Twin Boltgun & Stormbolter & Astartes Shotgun)
DT1: Razorback + Twin Assault Cannons

2000 Points

Ultramarine Battalion
HQ1: Tigerius
HQ2: Telion
TC1: Scout Squad: 3x Sniper Rifle Scouts + 1x Heavy Bolter Scout + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter.
TC2: Scout Squad: 3x Sniper Rifle Scouts + 1x Heavy Bolter Scout + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter.
TC3: Scout Squad: 3x Sniper Rifle Scouts + 1x Heavy Bolter Scout + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter.
TC4: Scout Squad: 3x Sniper Rifle Scouts + 1x Heavy Bolter Scout + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter.

EL1: Aggressor Squad: 4x Boltstorm/Fragstorm Aggressors + 1x Sergeant
EL2: Company Ancient: Standard Bearer, Storm Bolter, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant
EL3: Company Veterans: 4x Veterans with Stormbolter & Stormshield + 1x Sergeant with Stormbolter + Stormshield
EL4: Company Veterans: 4x Veterans with Stormbolter & Stormshield + 1x Sergeant with Stormbolter + Stormshield
EL5: Dreadnought: Twin Autocannon + Twin Heavy Bolter
EL6: Dreadnought: Twin Autocannon + Twin Heavy Bolter

FA1: Scout Bike Squad: 2x Scout Bikers (Twin Boltgun & Astartes Shotgun & Bolt Pistol) + Sergeant (Twin Boltgun & Stormbolter & Astartes Shotgun)
FA2: Scout Bike Squad: 2x Scout Bikers (Twin Boltgun & Astartes Shotgun & Bolt Pistol) + Sergeant (Twin Boltgun & Stormbolter & Astartes Shotgun)
FA3: Scout Bike Squad: 2x Scout Bikers (Twin Boltgun & Astartes Shotgun & Bolt Pistol) + Sergeant (Twin Boltgun & Stormbolter & Astartes Shotgun)

HS1: Rapier Quad Mortar + 2x Astartes Gunners
HS2: Rapier Quad Mortar + 2x Astartes Gunners
HS3: Rapier Quad Mortar + 2x Astartes Gunners

Heavy Auxiliary:
LOW: Rouboute Guilliman

Welcome back Dash!

I'm a Xenos player, but I've played against Gurlyman lists often...

It seems that in order to really take advantage of his aura, you'd need a solid firebase. So, I'd see what others have done in that regard.

As an Ork/DE player, I've always been surprised that we don't see more FW Rapiers quad cannons:


Hell, if you really want to keep your model count low but still be effective, consider the FireRaptor:

I'm sure that FETHING ANGRY paint style would look great on that model.

Hey Dash, I'm just coming back after a long break too I don't know too much about the Codex Marines or their new units / options, but doesn't it look like you have very little anti-tank? I know My 2000 pt Guard list has 4 Leman Russ and a Baneblade, and I'm not sure you have anything that could come close to putting a dent in that. You should probably take a Smash Captain or two (TH/SS + Jump Pack) to try to get in close and mess up tanks if you don't wanna put in things like Hellblasters.

So yea, try to get some Devastators with Lascannons in, or some Hellblasters in, or preferably both, so you can deal with tanks

 Dashofpepper wrote:



500 point version:

Ultramarine Detachment (not sure what detachment this is)
Captain: Jump Pack, Stormbolter, and Thunderhammer
5 Scouts with Boltguns
3 Aggressors: Boltstorm Gauntlets & Frag Launchers
4 Scout Bikes (3 Scouts + Sergeant with Stormbolter)
Razorback + Twin Assault Cannons

What is the idea behind this list?
I think it could be to advance in the middle of the table where your unit can hurt more. I don't have any experience with Aggressors but seeing that they move 5' makes me wonder if they can keep up with the rest of the army. Is the razorback carrying someone inside or is it just there for firesupport? I love twin assault cannons and if you can find the points I will give it a stormbolter too. What worries me is that it is your only vehicle and so the only target for AV weapons that your opponent might bring (still notmany of them at 500 pts I guess, so smart positioning and prudence could help the razorback to stay alive).
I love the scout bikers.

 Dashofpepper wrote:


2000 Point Option #1

Ultramarine Battalion
Tigerius
Telion
6x Aggressors: Boltstorm Gauntlets & Frag Launchers
5x Vets: 3 Stormshields, 5 Stormbolters
5x Vets: 3 Stormshields, 5 Stormbolters
Standard Bearer + Relic Banner
6x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter), Heavy Bolter Scout (for strategem)
6x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter), Heavy Bolter Scout (for strategem)
5xScouts w/Bolters
5xScouts w/Bolters
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter
Mortis Dreadnought: 2 sets of Twin Heavy Bolters
Mortis Dreadnought: 2 sets of Twin Heavy Bolters

Heavy Auxiliary:
Rouboute Guilliman

Option #4

Vertus praetors (custodes bikers) - they have always had worked wonders for me, keep them safe at the beginning and then close in. Hurricane bolters and then charge is just amazing, they can threat a wide range of target with their reroll on charges. Just make sure to bring an umbrella or a raincoat because you could get splashed by your opponent tears.

-The first thing that I can see is a lack of anti tank fire power as mentioned by others before me. At 2000 pts it is kind of mandatory.

-The banner is going to hug the bubble advancing in the middle I guess, maybe try to squeeze in some Hellblasters or devastator to go with it? (with Guilliman rerolls moving and firing heavy weapons is not *that* big of a deal)

-Also you have 4 Troops while you need only 3. Maybe dropping the 4th one and the extra man in the others to give the veterans bikes? [t5 and 3++ save is wonderful imo] (not to mention that, often, walking marines are dead marines. You want something to deliver them in rapid fire range/charge range at least. Bikes are an amazing solution.

-3 units of scout bikers are a bit of too much imo. Maybe drop some to give your Dreadnoughts some AT or to buy Hellblasters/devastators.

What are you after in your list? You say you want a low model count, but then spam a lot of scouts. You are also woefully light on anti tank fire. You want something hard to wipe off the table, but are mostly a 4+ save marine army.

The individual units are not bad, but it’s not a balanced force, and I’m having trouble seeing your theme.

There are as many ways to build a marine army as there are players. One of the nice things about the codex is that many different units can be geared to do the same job, so you have a lot of options on how to build a TAC list. The trick is to find the right tool to do the job that fits your play style. Just be sure to have some AV, some way to clear hordes, some way of getting boots on objectives, etc.

Since you are playing angry marines, you are not looking for some subtle min/max efficient way of getting the job done, but what gets the job done in the most ANGRY WAY POSSIBLE!

So scout bikers, good for clearing out hordes. But can they do the job with as much ing carnage as vanguard vets with jump packs and 2x chainswords? While they might not be as point efficient, bolter inceptors can deliver some nice dakka to the backfield, and also put some mortal woulds through someone’s head when they charge! Look at those boots, if that doesn’t say “Your face here” I don’t know what does.

Dreads are a good platform for getting all sorts of stuff done. And they are referred to as “Angry washing machines” for a good reason. Good fit thematically for your list, with plenty of space to scrawl slogans on. You can load them up for ranged AV, but still have a giant fist to crush things with. Although Guiliman promotes static gunlines, I feel that you should be pushing forward to crush your foes in the MOST ANGRY WAY POSSIBLE! So mixing good firepower with some CC power is a must, IMHO.

If you are taking a banner, you might want to look into Hellblasters. They are good, solid firepower, especially with the re-rolls. And if they die to overheating, they get an extra shot from the banner. Bonus points if you can work an apothecary into your list, so they can get up and do it again. And they can do this on the move, so can keep up the fire while you charge into the enemy.

The scout list might play well vs. a horde heavy army, but it doesn’t really say "ALWAYS ANGRY, ALL THE TIME” to me.

Hope this helps.

Wow! That whirlwind conversion is hilariously awesome!


Army critique:
Looking at the list, it looks like a lot is relying on a bunch of S4 shooting, and I think that will only get you so far. I don't have experience spamming just bolter equivalents with my Marines, because I always bring loads of Heavy and Special weapons. But when I've tried getting work done with S4 spam using Tyranids (Devourer Termagants can put out 180 S4 shots a turn) it has severe limits when up against heavier armored targets (like Custodes or vehicles), and I've had to go back to relying on heavier weapons.

One of the best guns right now for Space Marines is the Plasma Cannon. With a range of 36", D3 shots, and the capacity to overcharge, it puts up really nice averages against a lot of targets. I've built my current list around a heavy weapons core of 3 Devastator Squads, with 10 Plasma Cannons, 1 Heavy Bolter (for the Stratagem) and one Missile Launcher (for the other Stratagem) between them. Then I put the Relic Banner in the midst, and as they die, they often get to shoot again, which is sweet.

Also, because Plasma Cannons can kill your own models, there's a nice who-gives-a-**** raging quality to them.

As Nevelon says above, Hellblasters work pretty well for this, too. I'm just Primaris-adverse, and Devastators have a few advantages like being able to be put in cheaper transports, fire-again-Cherub, Signum for 2+ to hit's, and they have more weapon options allowing them to use the Hellfire and Flakk Missile Stratagems.

@whembly: Thanks for the welcome back! It's been an age!. Do you not think the aggressors are a solid fire base? 6+d6 shots per model, firing twice if they don't move, smarmy rerolls across the board, with some snipers doing snipey sniping and resniping for mortal wounds, those Mortis dreads adding 24 more shots, and volume of fire wounding on 5+ instead of a couple of shots wounding on 3+ adding quantity where quality is lacking. Isn't that Rapier quad cannon what I'm talking about in Option #3? The SM equivalent of mortars? Tanks don't have AV anymore, so STR4 can wound all that stuff on a 5+, and even when I ran Darklight spam in 5th edition with maximum blasters and dark lances putting out 16-18 shots per turn, there wasn't much RoI.

@Horst: Don't STR4 bolters wound those Leman Russ tanks and Baneblades on a 5+? I'd think the scout bikers would be able to zip in and assault those tanks to keep them from firing if I had to? FYI, those scout bikers are going to be ANGRY ROMAN CHARIOTS (counts as bikers) where Scout Sergeants are riding a chariot instead of a bike, being pulled along by slaved Khorne berzerkers who are being literally whipped into a frenzy with their own arms.

@xross93x: I don't really know what the idea behind this list is, except to make a defensible firebase of Space Marine Dakka with Guilliman style rerolls and buffs. 6 Aggressors with 6+d6 shots per turn, rerolls, and firing twice if they don't move is a LOT of firepower. For the 500 point army, I think my buddy put the razorback in there so it *could* transport scouts if needed, but probably mostly to have twin assault cannons available to pour more fire into things. I already bought the razorback. And a terminator. And an angry head. And had some 3" and 4" assault cannons printed, because my razorback isn't going to mount perfectly good weapons on a chassis when a terminator could be SURFING INTO COMBAT ON A RAZORBACK dual wielding chainsword-tipped assault cannons while the driver is holding him leashed to the top so he doesn't fly off. The idea behind "the army" was that I had a demo game to learn 8th edition where I spent 5 hours trying to figure out how to use a borrowed 2,000 point Tau list, we got through two turns, I'm pretty sure I did most of it wrong, and I thought, "I need to get into 40k with a low model count army that isn't so fluffy that people laugh it off the table but also don't make people say, 'Oh look, Dash is back with a WAAC army."

Do you not think that quantity of firepower with rerolls makes up for quality of shots? Given my historical dice capabilities, I can't make a few high quality weapons work, and I'm told that 8th edition is about quantity of shots, not quality of shots. I don't have to do STR vs. AV to glance/penetrate, so simply wounding on a 5+ with rerolls is as good as a high strength single shot. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it. Having not played a game yet...I don't have any personal experience to offer in where the banner is supposed to go, or support. Are Hellblasters something the Chapter Approved made more competitive? And the company veterans with stormshields aren't on bikes in my army; they're walking. I don't have vehicles for them in the list. That's not to say it's right, just that if you were assuming those were company veterans on bikes, they're...TOO ANGRY TO RIDE. Or something. I'll ask my buddy who created that 2,000 list to look at Hellblasters sometime and tell me why he didn't weigh those in.

@Nevelon: I am playing Ultramarines, I'm just modeling them as angry marines because they're hilarious, and because the guy who (IMHO) helped create and popularize them agreed to take on the commission of making me some since I have zero artistic ability. I have a lot of angry plans here; even the scout snipers are going to be angrified with Xenos corpse camouflage. I've been thinking those Company veteran stormshields might be oversized vindicator dozer blades that they're pushing up the field on wheeled dollies - but I don't want to go all close combat to thematically fit angry marines if Ultramarine shooting is more competitive. Does that make sense? I'll fit my ultramarine army into the angry marine theme instead of creating an angry marine theme and trying to apply it to a codex. I'd love see your vision of this army, retooled to what you think would have more synergy; especially since I'm talking about model purchasing (and commissioning), and not just pulling models from an existing pool to re-envision a fieldable army. I'm a Dark Eldar player at heart, but bringing an outdated 3rd Edition DE to 5th edition games where they aren't really strong and generalship decides wins and losses isn't the same as taking the current top tier army and trying to beatstick with it. Angry marines are like foreplay. You can't lead with rape; there has to be some foreplay first - but if Space Marines aren't very competitive right now, I want to make a competitive army with them, get as good as I can get with them, then one day decide if I'm going to put together the Drukhari army that beckons me to torture, enslave, and be evil.

@Insectum7: All credit for that whirlwind conversion to where it's due (Vyler) who's angry marine conversions inspired me to get an angry start back into 40k. If you mathhammer out all that S4 shooting against heavier armed targets, does it not equate? I don't want to try being tricky, or having a gimmick army; I don't want to be relying on a couple of models getting critical hits deciding if I win or lose - I'll always miss those shots. The idea of "Here's NINE THOUSAND FETHING GUNS, SOMETHING IS GOING TO GET THROUGH" is attractive. I did ask Hulksmash why he chose aggressors over devastators for this list, to which he responded:
------------
I didn't realize that the FAQ ruled you could double use the strats. There is something to it. 4d3 Mortals is good. But it's basically just for magnus or morty and Riptides. And morty will ignore 1/3 of them. So while I like it it's not something I'd go hard in on it bears some bonuses. I really like the aggressors because of their amazing shooting but they also can hold up in CC in support of Gully. Honestly if you're playing ITC then the agressors are so much better because they can clear chaff like it's going out of style and not be shot turn one because they hid in a building.

I think a 200pts minimum investment if you're taking both weapons isn't worth the 4d3 mortals and 2d3 for maybe two turns thereafter before they get murdered.
-------------
I disclaim again that I haven't played a game yet - to say this: Tactical analysis at the start of a game always leads off with, "What does the other guy have that can hurt me the most" and you create a list of things you want to kill in which order. Devastators create a big target. If everything is equally dangerous (or equally...mediocre) it confuses target priority by your opponents, which I'm a fan of. In 5th edition, I always encouraged people to go all vehicles or all infantry to break your opponent's efficiency, such that anti-tank weapons were wasted on infantry, or anti-infantry weapons didn't have a target until the anti-tank weapons has managed to create targets. In this edition, can't one aggressor with 6+D6 STR4 shots do as much to a titan (or Knight, or superheavy, or rhino) as one model with a lascannon? Same application of scouts with stormbolters, etc?

Dash, bolters are gonna wound tanks on a 6, not a 5. As for assaulting, massed bolter fire will help clear the screens, but your fast units will be a priority to shoot at as well, so I'm not sure if they'll live long enough to get to assault.

Someone may have mentioned, your list lack some real AT punch. I think you might want those Dread pack up with Twin Lascannon, onstead of more Str5 level weapons. You might still run into armies with LRBT, Carnifexes, T-Fexes, Exocrines, etc., Lascannons might do better against these units.

Horst wrote:Dash, bolters are gonna wound tanks on a 6, not a 5. As for assaulting, massed bolter fire will help clear the screens, but your fast units will be a priority to shoot at as well, so I'm not sure if they'll live long enough to get to assault.

Oy? That's the problem with me not having played a game yet. =p I'm looking at some vehicles. I see some T5, mostly T6 and T7, Land Raiders (former AV14) are now T8. Is the rule not 4+ against even S vs T, then 5+ until you get to double + 1, then 6?

Neophyte2012 wrote:Someone may have mentioned, your list lack some real AT punch. I think you might want those Dread pack up with Twin Lascannon, onstead of more Str5 level weapons. You might still run into armies with LRBT, Carnifexes, T-Fexes, Exocrines, etc., Lascannons might do better against these units.

Lascannons *would* do better against a LRBT than a bolter. I'm at a math-hammer disadvantage because I don't KNOW the math yet to mathhammer this out. A squad of devastators that cost X points, equipped with Y lascannons firing against a LRBT with rerolls to hit and wound, and a squad of aggressors that cost X, equipped with Y bolter equivalents firing against a LRBT with rerolls to hit and wound. I swear I heard somewhere that bolters wound tanks on a 5+, so it was pretty reasonable to aim for volume of shots to make up for lack of quality with quantity. I wish GW would release an 8th edition pocket rulebook.

*edit* - I went back and re-read what Hulksmash put together for me in that initial army list - which was "They changed the wound chart. You can always wound on a 6 now but you only wound on a 2 if you double the toughness and you only have to wound on a 6 if it doubles your strength (or more). 1's still fail. Essentially st6 wound t4 on a 3 now instead of 2 and so on."

So S4 wounds T7 on a 5+ and wounds T8 on a 6+....but all that S4 gets rerolls, which in turn I haven't math-hammered out yet. Sniper rifles can target independent characters and do mortal wounds to tanks on 6s? I've got to believe that a single aggressor model for however many points it is now, who can spit out up to 24 S4 bolter shots per turn, with rerolls to hit and wound...can get on par with someone wielding a lascannon point for point?

 Dashofpepper wrote:

Horst wrote:Dash, bolters are gonna wound tanks on a 6, not a 5. As for assaulting, massed bolter fire will help clear the screens, but your fast units will be a priority to shoot at as well, so I'm not sure if they'll live long enough to get to assault.

Oy? That's the problem with me not having played a game yet. =p I'm looking at some vehicles. I see some T5, mostly T6 and T7, Land Raiders (former AV14) are now T8. Is the rule not 4+ against even S vs T, then 5+ until you get to double + 1, then 6?

Neophyte2012 wrote:Someone may have mentioned, your list lack some real AT punch. I think you might want those Dread pack up with Twin Lascannon, onstead of more Str5 level weapons. You might still run into armies with LRBT, Carnifexes, T-Fexes, Exocrines, etc., Lascannons might do better against these units.

Lascannons *would* do better against a LRBT than a bolter. I'm at a math-hammer disadvantage because I don't KNOW the math yet to mathhammer this out. A squad of devastators that cost X points, equipped with Y lascannons firing against a LRBT with rerolls to hit and wound, and a squad of aggressors that cost X, equipped with Y bolter equivalents firing against a LRBT with rerolls to hit and wound. I swear I heard somewhere that bolters wound tanks on a 5+, so it was pretty reasonable to aim for volume of shots to make up for lack of quality with quantity. I wish GW would release an 8th edition pocket rulebook.

You're at 6+ to wound when you hit double toughness, not double+1. So Knights, Leman Russes, Land Raiders, and other "heavy" vehicles at T8+ are gonna be very hard for bolters to wound. It's funny, a squad of Guardsmen shoot better at T8+ vehicles than marines, since they get more attacks.

edit - also, check out this website - https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/

Helpful if you wanna do some math hammer to figure out expected results from shooting

You're really lacking anti-vehicle firepower in this one. I'd suggest picking up a unit of 10 Hellblasters. They're very powerful when combined with Guilliman and a SotEA Ancient.

Not really sure why you have so many Scouts. Would be worth taking some Tacs or Primaris as well. I'd ditch the Scout Bikes entirely. I'd also suggest trying a Leviathan Dread instead of the 2x Mortis and he'd make a pretty awesome Angry Marine Leviathan.

Quad Mortars may be interesting to try out, haven't had enough experience with them yet however.

One problem with agressors is that the are slow, short range, and not that tough for their points. Sure, if they stand still they double their firepower, but someone has to willingly walk into that. The are more likely going to have to stagger forward, and hope not to eat a lascannon to the face before getting a chance to shoot.

With imperial knights out there you need an answer for T8+ heavy units. Especially if you want to be on the competitive side. They are part of the meta, and a hard counter to your first list.

Full disclosure: I’m a casual player, advice on competitive play is from hanging out here too much, not experience.
Despite attempts to slow it down, soup is still the way to go for competitive imperial players. Start with the Loyal 32. 3x10 squads of guardsmen, 2 HQs for them. They will provide CP, screening units, and light firepower. You can continue to cherry pick top units from other books (like a knight of your own, or dawneagle captains) but I’ll assume you actually want to include Ultramarines in your UM army.
Despite Guiliman’s getting a price hike or two, he’s still a monster. You want to pack as much firepower into his auras as you can. Razorbacks are nice (AsC used to be king, with the price cut on the TLLC they might be better now), dev squads are good (Mostly LCs, with some HB/MLs+cherubs for MW tricks). What’s top depends a lot on the CA18 updates which I’ve not digested yet. Spamming plasma is never a bad call these days. With re-rolls, it’s pretty safe, and can effectively threaten everything.

I run 30 intercessors as base with my Ultras in basically every list. I don't like scouts one bit. Though with sniper rifles they are a lot better after CA.

I'd rank our best units like this.
Ven Dread with las/ML
Dread with las/ML
Plasma Devestators
Primaris Ancient
Scouts with sniper rifles
Scout bikes
Stalkers
Redemptor dread with gatlings cannons (now very good after CA)
Repulsors (good but not really viable in competitive because of Castellan knights)
Intercessors (you really have to commit to this these guys to make them work - I take 30)
Plasma Inceptors (One of the better suicide squads in the game)
Hell blasters (lots of damage - die really easy)

For Hq's
Calgar
Tigarius
Jetpack Librarian
Lt.
Tech Marine

You can build your army a lot of ways. The most sucessful method is going to be spamming devs/scouts with snipers/ maybe even vets with storm bolters/ + ancient banner bearer with relic + GMAN

Or you can take another apporach and spam dreads with LC around calgar LT - probably using intercessors for troops here.

Or you can go full mech and bring repulsors and fire raptors with Gman.

Keep in mind - none of this is actually very strong - you probably wont be winning tournaments with it.

There are two concepts you really need to grasp for 8th ed ITC competitive scene.

1) TAC Army lists is much harder now to be even semi-competitive. Yet, as contradictory it sounds, you really need to build your list for the current meta that is really diverse. Hence why so many responses you're getting about the lack of AT weapons. Imperial Knights are here to stay, and the Castigator is extremely popular that people really need to have a strategy for those. Spammed Str 4 or even Str 5 won't cut it. Additionally, horde armies are en vogue in this edition as well (orks, IG, demons, etc...)... because they're designed to overwhelm your opponent with board control that helps maximizes mission points. I believe this is the reason why we're seeing so many "soup" armies.

2) To further expand on point #1, it isn't about building a TAC lists based on what your opponent brings... it's really about how to maximize the ITC mission scenarios as well. Frankly, your army building strategies should answer the following questions:
a) What unit(s) can clear out chaff units?
b) What unit(s) can take on IK (T8 monsters)? Either by destroying or occupying it's attention.
c) What's my objective holding strategy? How do I mitigate my opponent's objective holding strategy?

Your old darklight spam Dark Elder can answer all three of those, and yet that list isn't even near top tier. (I'm sure you'll win plenty of games by being a great general).

So, before you land on your final army composition, I'd start wrapping your head around the various ITC mission packets so that you can build something that can not only give your opponent heart burn, but also maximize the ITC missions.

Onto your quesitons:

 Dashofpepper wrote:
@whembly: Thanks for the welcome back! It's been an age!. Do you not think the aggressors are a solid fire base? 6+d6 shots per model, firing twice if they don't move, smarmy rerolls across the board,

The range seems so short imo. I know about the "firing twice" strat so I'm not going to "tee up " a target for you.

with some snipers doing snipey sniping and resniping for mortal wounds,

Eh... snipers never seem to work well for what they do. These units are probably more of a personal preference thing. They value, imo, is that they fill out the required Troop slots, can Concealed Positions during deployment and that they're CHEAP. I've never been afraid of their sniper shots as many models that is worth shooting at as plenty of wounds.

those Mortis dreads adding 24 more shots, and volume of fire wounding on 5+ instead of a couple of shots wounding on 3+ adding quantity where quality is lacking.

Now, don't get me wrong, I LOVED Mortis dreads... always will. I'd echo other posters of maybe going with LC or ML on those platform.

Isn't that Rapier quad cannon what I'm talking about in Option #3? The SM equivalent of mortars?

True. I'm coming from a standpoint that if the goal is to squeeze out more number of Str4 / Str5 shots, things like the rapiers have a place. Rapiers also are HEAVY unit, so its cheaper too than a Devastator squad (I think, don't hold me to that).

Tanks don't have AV anymore, so STR4 can wound all that stuff on a 5+, and even when I ran Darklight spam in 5th edition with maximum blasters and dark lances putting out 16-18 shots per turn, there wasn't much RoI.

Str4 can wound most light tanks (T5 to T7) on 5+... on Lemon Russ/IK/Big Boppers? You're wounding on 6+... and then, you're opponents get his SAVE (and maybe FnP).

 whembly wrote:
There are two concepts you really need to grasp for 8th ed ITC competitive scene.

1) TAC Army lists is much harder now to be even semi-competitive. Yet, as contradictory it sounds, you really need to build your list for the current meta that is really diverse. Hence why so many responses you're getting about the lack of AT weapons. Imperial Knights are here to stay, and the Castigator is extremely popular that people really need to have a strategy for those. Spammed Str 4 or even Str 5 won't cut it. Additionally, horde armies are en vogue in this edition as well (orks, IG, demons, etc...)... because they're designed to overwhelm your opponent with board control that helps maximizes mission points. I believe this is the reason why we're seeing so many "soup" armies.

2) To further expand on point #1, it isn't about building a TAC lists based on what your opponent brings... it's really about how to maximize the ITC mission scenarios as well. Frankly, your army building strategies should answer the following questions:
a) What unit(s) can clear out chaff units?
b) What unit(s) can take on IK (T8 monsters)? Either by destroying or occupying it's attention.
c) What's my objective holding strategy? How do I mitigate my opponent's objective holding strategy?

I think you see the bind I'm in.

I have no models. In the interest of getting models on the tabletop to play with, I purchased the stuff to make that 500 point list, plus a bit more. I can't sit forever talking to smart people on the internet trying to figure it out, I have to start somewhere. I bought a captain box, a razorback, 5 bolter scouts, two boxes of primaris aggressors, and 3 boxes of scout bikers. While I'm getting those commissioned into angry marines with awesome conversions, I'm trying to forward think whether the 2,000 point army variants I have are something I'll have buyer's remorse for in a year or two.

I need to take to the tabletop to see what works and what doesn't, get experience, lose my ass over and over, learn from those experiences, and adapt. But I need models first, and I don't want to be in a position in 12-24 months where I've spent hundreds/thousands to buy stuff, hundreds/thousands more to have another guy convert these things and paint them into angry marines, and countless hours of my time doing the same to find out I didn't spend that time or money efficiently, the models I purchased don't fit into my theme, and now I need to course correct. I'm trying to lean on you guys to mitigate the pain of learning how to manage ITC mission scenarios, and answering those questions myself. I want to buy the right stuff the first time around, then learn how to use it around those ITC objectives.


You say that my 5th edition Darklight storm answered all three of those questions. I don't have any models anymore. Long, partly angry story, which is the sole reason for ANGRY marines, because we *are* angry. My first thought on re-entering the hobby was, "Let me just rebuild my old DE army."

-I bought the Drukhari Codex.
-I read it cover to cover twice.
-I raged over Baron Sathonyx being taken out. He was my favorite, and I spent $300 getting a custom Baron Sathonyx conversion done back in the day with a green-stuffed energy field vortex as his Shadowfield.
-My friends told me vehicles are WAY different now, and dark lance spam isn't very good any more.
-I looked up some Drukhari army lists, which all involve lots of disintegrators, usually some Talos, and some Eldar allies.
-I read all the rumors of Chapter Approved nerfing Drukhari disintegrators and Talos, and Eldar Allies.
-I couldn't even figure out how to build an army into the framework of 8th edition detachments.
-I elected to wait on Drukhari because I wanted to put models on the table NOW, so I'd let the game settle down, let the codices finish deploying, let FAQs get all done, then figure out how to play Drukhari and get after it.
-I remembered that in 5th edition, we thought of Space Marines as the army for kids and dumb people, because they were very forgiving, unchallenging to play, and boring.
-I am a dumb person, overwhelmed by how complex 40k has gotten. I'm also angry over having no models anymore. ANGRY MARINES IT IS.
-We're full circle to this, and figuring out what to buy for my angry marines army.


Let me reframe my mission and question to you - and the folks responding.

Mission:
* I want to make an ultramarine type army (modeled and painted as angry marines because I love the shoulder pads, the rage, and the graffiti - not because I love close combat).
* This army should be low model count specifically so that when I start playing in local tournaments around the southeast US, I don't run into time-management issues or accusations of slow play as a result of my newbness, lack of understanding of the game, the army I have, or the army arrayed against me. The low model count requirement is solely so I don't piss anyone off when I poke into FLGS Saturday morning tournaments because I don't know what the I'm doing, and having fewer models should mean it takes me less time to do stuff.
* Balance low model count with being as competitive as possible with a low-tier codex so that when I start in tournaments, my opponents can't autopilot me off the board. Winning is nice, learning is more important. Avoiding buyer's remorse is most important. I'm not going to be in the top GT player club with an Ultramarine army. I get it. But I want my 2,000 points to be the best tools available.
* When I lose, it needs to be because I made generalship mistakes and used my models poorly - not because I have the wrong models in my army.

Progress To Date:
I bought a commander, razorback, 9 scout bikers, 6 aggressors, 5 bolter scouts. Given the discussion in this thread, I suspect I'm already going to have buyer's remorse over the aggressors and scout bikers.

Tasking Order:
Build a 2,000 point army that meets my mission. The 2,000 point army in the OP is my best friend and 40k mentor's interpretation of that mission, but he doesn't play Space Marines. But I had to start somewhere. Help me figure out what models to buy so I can advance my commission. I work 60-80 hours a week, there is no hobbying time; so every purchase also means I'm paying to have someone else clean it, convert it into angry marines, and paint it, so me buying (for example - Guilliman) that I'm not going to end up wanting later from a competitive perspective isn't a $60 mistake, its a $300-$600 mistake.

If none of the three 2,000 point options in the OP meet that mission, can you help me make a 2,000 point Ultramarine army that does?

Mission:
* I want to make an ultramarine type army (modeled and painted as angry marines because I love the shoulder pads, the rage, and the graffiti - not because I love close combat).

A very worthy mission because who wouldn't want to see not only fething angry marines, but FETHING ANGRY MARINES!.

* This army should be low model count specifically so that when I start playing in local tournaments around the southeast US, I don't run into time-management issues or accusations of slow play as a result of my newbness, lack of understanding of the game, the army I have, or the army arrayed against me. The low model count requirement is solely so I don't piss anyone off when I poke into FLGS Saturday morning tournaments because I don't know what the I'm doing, and having fewer models should mean it takes me less time to do stuff.

I understand these sentiments... my first army ever was all Deathwing Terminators in 5th Ed.

* Balance low model count with being as competitive as possible with a low-tier codex so that when I start in tournaments, my opponents can't autopilot me off the board. Winning is nice, learning is more important. Avoiding buyer's remorse is most important. I'm not going to be in the top GT player club with an Ultramarine army. I get it. But I want my 2,000 points to be the best tools available.

Understood. I don't feel like I can give you point-by-point suggestions in this regard as I'm primarily a Xenos player. I can, however, give you suggestions as what my army fears.

* When I lose, it needs to be because I made generalship mistakes and used my models poorly - not because I have the wrong models in my army.

Understood. Look... I know I panned that scout units, but I was pointing out that you really shouldn't factor in their sniper shots for damage output. There's waaay too many wounds on the table for those to be that much of a factor. But, they're still very useful in other ways, ie cheap troops that can forward deploy in cover to deny deep strikers and accumulate mission points. Things like that.

Here's another suggestion that I think you should consider that:
a) fit your FETHING ANGRY theme
b) maintain lower model counts
c) future buyer's remorse should be near nil

Consider getting one dual-gattling Imperial Knight and paint it FETHING ANGRY MARINE style! While it doesn't benefit from Guirlyman's aura, IK are the few units in the game that can stand on it's own, and needs very little CP support.

A WILD HULKSMASH ENTERS THE FRAY.

Few things since I set these lists as a starting point.

-This is for a competitive environment.

-CP aren't really important in this list as SM have terrible strats. Loyal 32 is actually a liability in ITC due to secondaries. Mortars are there because of ITC terrain rules for killing things that simply can't be seen.

-Model count wise this is pretty low for the current meta (I never drop below 100 models nowadays).

-In this list generally you make the standard bearer warlord for storm of fire (AP -1 on 6's to wound). Combined with Gulli you'd be surprised by the reality of the anti-tank.

-List is designed to blow thru the current chaff a lot of armies heavily invest in. It also takes into account orks as a new list.

-People worry about knights but if you can remove the screens gulli isn't to shabby at making pain happen to knight equivalents. He gets close to one shotting a knight with might of heroes.

-Scouts are there for two things. 10 snipers will generally with gulli pick off a 4-5 wound character. Heavy Bolters are for the strat to drop d3 on random things you feel the need for. Bolter scouts are meant for push back for orks and likely gsc once they come out. With the point change on sniper rifles I'd actually arm all of them with sniper rifles in case you don't need to use them for pushback.

-Scout bikes put out respectable amounts of shots per model and got a price drop.

Just throwing some stuff out there.

One of the things that's good is that while you want to run them as Ultramarines they're not painted up as such, therefore you could experiment with different Chapter Tactics and see what takes your fancy. I myself run the following list as Raven Guard (they're painted up as my own homebrew fluff but similar scheme to Red Scorpions).

HQ
Lias Issodon

Lieutenant

Librarian

Troops
10x Tactical Marines
- Plasma Gun
- Combi-Plasma
- Lascannon

10x Tactical Marines
- Plasma Gun
- Combi-Plasma
- Lascannon

10x Primaris Marines

Elites
10x Reivers
- Grav-Chutes

Heavy Support
Leviathan Dreadnought
- 2x Storm Cannons

5x Devastators
- 4x Missile Launchers

5x Devastators
- 4x Heavy Bolters


Don't have the exact points on me but it's roughly 2k. The army-wide -1 to hit is huge in this edition, and there's a good amount of firepower. Lias Issodon has a rule allowing him to deep-strike himself and up to 3 non-Primaris infantry units, which is excellent if you take a squad of Devs with 4x Mult-Meltas and a Combi-Melta. Alternatively he's one of the very few SM Characters who allow you to re-roll all misses rather than just 1's, so taking the Storm of Fire WT and castling up gives you a huge amount of firepower that re-rolls all misses, and re-rolls all 1's to wound, with every 6 to wound increasing the Ap by 1.

I'm very much a fan of this list as it's very flexible, in that the models I use I can shift about and make another list out of quite easily. I also have some Hellblasters I aim to include at some point and would very much recommend them. If you do plan to stick with Ultramarines you can still use Lias (as he's a Raptors character and you can just use Ultramarines CT), but you won't be able to take Guilliman if you do so.

You shouldn't have to worry about slow play, that generally only becomes a concern if you're running huge Ork/Nid lists with 30 models in a unit. If you spend 10 mins "umm-ing and ah-ing" then yeah, it may become a slow play issue but you should never really worry about it being a Marine player.

I wouldn't worry about buyer's remorse. You can always sell them on, or use them for another project. Aggressors can still be pretty decent, they're just not as overpowered as they were before with the RG Strategem. Scouts are still very good as a disruption unit and to provide anti-DS bubbles, but I personally wouldn't make them my only Troops choice.

Exalted for awesomeness, even though the list is missing the commissar.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Few things since I set these lists as a starting point.

-This is for a competitive environment.

-CP aren't really important in this list as SM have terrible strats. Loyal 32 is actually a liability in ITC due to secondaries. Mortars are there because of ITC terrain rules for killing things that simply can't be seen.

-Model count wise this is pretty low for the current meta (I never drop below 100 models nowadays).

-In this list generally you make the standard bearer warlord for storm of fire (AP -1 on 6's to wound). Combined with Gulli you'd be surprised by the reality of the anti-tank.

-List is designed to blow thru the current chaff a lot of armies heavily invest in. It also takes into account orks as a new list.

-People worry about knights but if you can remove the screens gulli isn't to shabby at making pain happen to knight equivalents. He gets close to one shotting a knight with might of heroes.

-Scouts are there for two things. 10 snipers will generally with gulli pick off a 4-5 wound character. Heavy Bolters are for the strat to drop d3 on random things you feel the need for. Bolter scouts are meant for push back for orks and likely gsc once they come out. With the point change on sniper rifles I'd actually arm all of them with sniper rifles in case you don't need to use them for pushback.

-Scout bikes put out respectable amounts of shots per model and got a price drop.

Just throwing some stuff out there.

The list is solid. Its a proven list that can do well. Especially in local rtts. It has a number of tricks that arent obvious and takes a smart Commander to use it effectivly. Its a good list to learn with. It shoots well, has mobility, utilizes Mortals and strats. Theres board control and BobbyG is a good multiplier who can hurt things on his own.

I do have a question regarding the mortis dreads ?

@zedsdead

Those are a personal choice because I like the number of shots on a non-degrading profile. They've been updated to normal dreads w/twin heavy bolter and twin autocannon (index options) due to the point drop the standard dread got in CA18.

 zedsdead wrote:



The list is solid. Its a proven list that can do well. Especially in local rtts. It has a number of tricks that arent obvious and takes a smart Commander to use it effectivly. Its a good list to learn with. It shoots well, has mobility, utilizes Mortals and strats. Theres board control and BobbyG is a good multiplier who can hurt things on his own.

I do have a question regarding the mortis dreads ?

This gives me some comfort that I'm making good model purchasing decisions. I'm willing and able to learn how to be a good angry marine general - and Hulksmash built it for me as a list to learn to play with. Hulksmash *did* get briefly angrily mariney though, and decide that THERE WEREN'T ENOUGH ING ANGRY ING SNIPERS IN THE ING ARMY SO HE ADDED SOME SNIPERS TO THE SNIPERS FOR THE EMPRAH'S ING GLORY.

Here's his new list that I'm ready to start buying and thinking about angrifying.

Tiggy - 115
Telion - 65
6 Aggressors - 222
2x5 Company Vets w/5 SB & 5 SS - 90 (180)
Company Ancient w/Storm Bolter - 65
2xDreadnought w/Autocannon & Twin Heavy Bolter - 100 (200) (Index Equipment)
5 Scouts w/4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter) - 67
5 Scouts w/4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter) - 67
6x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter), Heavy Bolter Scout (for strategem) - 88
6x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter), Heavy Bolter Scout (for strategem) - 88
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter - 71
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter - 71
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter - 71


Heavy Auxiliary:
Rouboute Guilliman - 400

Now, that's all 1,770 points. That leaves me 230 points to figure out. Assassins, IG mortars, or Rapier Quad Mortars? Or Thunderfire cannon with a techpriest that can fix the dreads? The ANGRY MARINE part of me wants quad mortars to make angry marine quad launchers. If that's not competitively feasible, IG mortars or Thunderfire cannons (which in turn has a Tremor Shells stratagem) can also be made into angry marine launchers. If Assassins are competitively the most feasible plug-in, I can do that too. If they're all about equal for utility, I'm going to go for rule of cool.

I mean, who wouldn't want the whirlwind in the OP. Except mortars.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@zedsdead

Those are a personal choice because I like the number of shots on a non-degrading profile. They've been updated to normal dreads w/twin heavy bolter and twin autocannon (index options) due to the point drop the standard dread got in CA18.

hmm are you sure you can do that ?......correction yes you can for 107 pts ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:



The list is solid. Its a proven list that can do well. Especially in local rtts. It has a number of tricks that arent obvious and takes a smart Commander to use it effectivly. Its a good list to learn with. It shoots well, has mobility, utilizes Mortals and strats. Theres board control and BobbyG is a good multiplier who can hurt things on his own.

I do have a question regarding the mortis dreads ?

This gives me some comfort that I'm making good model purchasing decisions. I'm willing and able to learn how to be a good angry marine general - and Hulksmash built it for me as a list to learn to play with. Hulksmash *did* get briefly angrily mariney though, and decide that THERE WEREN'T ENOUGH ING ANGRY ING SNIPERS IN THE ING ARMY SO HE ADDED SOME SNIPERS TO THE SNIPERS FOR THE EMPRAH'S ING GLORY.

Here's his new list that I'm ready to start buying and thinking about angrifying.

Tiggy - 115
Telion - 65
6 Aggressors - 222
2x5 Company Vets w/5 SB & 5 SS - 90 (180)
Company Ancient w/Storm Bolter - 65
2xDreadnought w/Autocannon & Twin Heavy Bolter - 100 (200) (Index Equipment)
5 Scouts w/4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter) - 67
5 Scouts w/4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter) - 67
6x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter), Heavy Bolter Scout (for strategem) - 88
6x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter), Heavy Bolter Scout (for strategem) - 88
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter - 71
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter - 71
3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter - 71


Heavy Auxiliary:
Rouboute Guilliman - 400

Now, that's all 1,770 points. That leaves me 230 points to figure out. Assassins, IG mortars, or Rapier Quad Mortars? Or Thunderfire cannon with a techpriest that can fix the dreads? The ANGRY MARINE part of me wants quad mortars to make angry marine quad launchers. If that's not competitively feasible, IG mortars or Thunderfire cannons (which in turn has a Tremor Shells stratagem) can also be made into angry marine launchers. If Assassins are competitively the most feasible plug-in, I can do that too. If they're all about equal for utility, I'm going to go for rule of cool.

I mean, who wouldn't want the whirlwind in the OP. Except mortars.

Dash...

Couple of options i would consider.

Go Brigade ?

Thunderfire Cannon or 2 got way cheaper in CA plus a good strat

1 Dev squad with ML. - extra use of Strat for more Mortals vs fly

Apothacary

Not enough points for brigading. Also sm are pretty cp light. Their strats pretty much suck. To brigade your have to add 10 scouts and 15 dev's at minimum. Even naked that's 305.

Also there is no reason to ever take a thunder fire over a quad launcher.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Not enough points for brigading. Also sm are pretty cp light. Their strats pretty much suck. To brigade your have to add 10 scouts and 15 dev's at minimum. Even naked that's 305.

Also there is no reason to ever take a thunder fire over a quad launcher.

Playing devil's advocate here - Thunderfire Cannons have a 1 CP stratagem "Tremor Shells" that can immobilize an entire enemy army if they are using a screening unit. It can stop an assault, and just do general farkery with enemy mobility. The techpriest that comes with the cannon can repair the dreadnoughts in this army, or the thunderfire cannon. They got cheaper with Chapter Approved, and for the tactical flexibility of the movement/advancement inhibiting options, before even considering the statline and damage output, its pretty awesome. Quad Mortars by comparison die faster, and are less efficient, neh? I saw a good argument that the with the aggressive price-drop of whirlwinds in chapter approved, there is never a situation where quad mortars make sense over whirlwinds. I don't know.

I've seen suggestions that I should get 1 thunderfire cannon and two whirlwinds, or 1 thunderfire and an IG mortar detachment, or three whirlwinds - but aside from angry marine launching abilities, I need some help figuring out where to go with those options.

Hi Dash, thought I'd stick my nose in and join the debate. It's been a good one so far.

The list you're working towards is pretty specialised, and crutches heavily upon Bobby's aura to allow all those bolter/sniper shots to actually dent armour. This has a great advantage, in that bringing that much hyper-accurate low-strength dakka also does terrible terrible things to orks, harlequins, guardsmen, etc. That's a big plus in my book, as both GW missions and ITC place a high value on board control and numbers, so a list that can wipe your opponent's grunts is starting from a great place.

Scout bikes are a great unit, super efficient, thumbs up.

Aggressors are my hands-down favourite Primaris unit, but - and it's a big but - that is because I play Deathwatch. I can embed those guys in squads of intercessors, or if I want to run them pure, can deepstrike them turn 2 into a great position. Without either of those things, aggressors can and will be focus-fired down as a matter of high priority. Why? Because they're great. So your mileage may vary; if you can shepard them through to turn 2 or 3, they will have a very big impact on the game. Like CWE reapers, people want them dead, but unlike reapers, they can't sit right back and shoot, and they can't fire and fade in and out of LoS. All of this is to say, you'll have a blast with them, but it will be a challenge to play them well. Having said all that, you're not playing many big units, so Tiggy's -1 to hit would be a great choice for them in a squad of 6. Might be worth investigating!

While I see Hulk's reasoning, playing this kind of list would make me super nervous going up against competitive knight/soup armies, and they are everywherrrre at the moment. For that reason I'd make two squads of Devs an absolute priority, to leverage the mortal wound/cherub combo. Mortal wounds and close combat are the best answers to knights, so maybe another smash-captain too.

Finally, it's not strictly angry marines, but for this list, I think the librarian supreme command detachment is a really good fit. Basically it involves souping in a DA librarian and and a SW Rune Priest to bring their excellent psychic powers to bear. Alongside Tiggy this would give you a lot of powers at your disposal, a lot of denials to mess with all those Thousand Sons & Eldar out there, and most importantly of all, two nerf powers (Aversion and Tempest's wrath) that can be stacked on the same target, one from each of your guest librarians. This would synergise really well with this list, as you're not bringing much dedicated AT. The Castellan knight is a big problem for that approach, as it can brutally dominate games if left unchecked. But slapping -2 to hit on it every turn will turnt he game on its head, allowing you to burn through your opponent's troops whilst neutering their knight (and slowly chipping away at it with mortal wounds and plinks.)

It will also give Bobby a space in a detachment that actually grants command points. With two batallions and a supreme command, you'd be starting the game with 14CPs which is awesome. Someone upthread said marines don't have many good strats, and while that's kind of true, the ones they do have are great, and spammable. For instance smas-caps burn through a lot in no time, and Dev squads need one or two a turn too, so 14 will give you exactly the kind of pool you'll be needing.

Finally, I feel you should give yourself the option, and the pleasure, of a Storm-cannon Leviathan Dreadnought in your roster. It is a beast, and loves Bobby's reroll all wounds. In this kind of list it would be a magnet for all the AT that your opponent will otherwise have to waste on shooting scouts, so that's a problem. However, if you can manage LoS well it's still viable, and is probably SM's single best unit at the moment. Deredeos are also great at the moment. Anyway, hope this was of some help, great choice on the chapter, and good luck!

grouchoben makes a solid point about FW dreads, my marines have been faring a lot better since I implemented a deredeo and leviathan into my list. I run the plasma cannonade and shield aura on the deredeo, babysitting the devastators makes them more durable while also giving the option to wisdom of the ancients them, and my leviathan proves his worth EVERY GAME... he's a beast. 4+ invuln, I run mine storm and grav flux, but thats only because I got mine from eBay... the grav flux bombard hasn't disappointed me though, it's actually alarmingly good at clearing chaff , MEQs or custodes...


GamerGuy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captain w Jump Pack
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield

Tigurius

Tactical Squad
Combi-plasma
Plasmagun

Tactical Squad
Combi-plasma
Plasmagun

Tactical Squad
Combi-plasma
Plasmagun

Whirlwind
Vengeance Launcher

Devastator Squad
Missile Launcher
Heavy Bolter
Armourium Cherub

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought
Grav-flux Bombard
Storm Cannon Array
Two Heavy Flamers
------------------------------------------
998pts: my reccomendation for 1k pick up games

-Tear it up for all I care, but I think this would work and look good on the field.

GamerGuy

Hey guys!

After many hours of agony, I've settled on the quad mortars. I'm now stuck with 39 Points to remove or I can remove a Rapier and have 46 points to spend. When I was entering this into Battlescribe, the dreadnoughts costed out at 107 instead of 100, and instead of being able to remove two snipers and end up at 1999, I'd still be over.

I don't know where to shave points. I already bought the aggressors, so I'm loathe to shave one off. I could cut the rapier, and spend 46 points on...camo cloaks? I'm not currently taking advantage of Telion's ability to turn Camo Cloaks into +2 cover instead of +1. I could have scouts with a 1+ base save. Or I could add a couple snipers. Advice?


Ultramarine Battalion
HQ1: Tigerius (115)
HQ2: Telion (65)

Elite1: 6x Aggressors: Boltstorm Gauntlets & Frag Launchers (222)
Elite2: 5x Company Veterans, 5 Stormshields, 5 Stormbolters (90)
Elite3: 5x Company Veterans, 5 Stormshields, 5 Stormbolters (90)
Elite4: Company Ancient Standard Bearer, StormBolter (65)
Elite5: Dreadnought: Autocannonon+Twin Heavy Bolter (107)
Elite6: Dreadnought: Autocannon+Twin Heavy Bolter (107)

Troop1: 5x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter) - 67
Troop2: 5x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter) - 67
Troop3: 6x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter), H.Bolter Scout (for stratagem) - 88
Troop4: 6x Scouts: 4 Snipers, Sergeant (Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter), H.Bolter Scout (for stratagem) - 88

Fast Attack1: 3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter (71)
Fast Attack2: 3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter (71)
Fast Attack3: 3x Scout Bikers: 2 Biker Scouts, 1 Sergeant with Stormbolter (71)

Heavy Support1: Rapier Quad Mortar, Two Astartes Gunners (85)
Heavy Support2: Rapier Quad Mortar, Two Astartes Gunners (85)
Heavy Support3: Rapier Quad Mortar, Two Astartes Gunners (85)

Heavy Auxiliary:
Rouboute Guilliman (400)


Total: 2,039:



@grouchoben: I'm hoping the aggressors shine against tyranids, genestealer cults, surprise deep strikes (auspex scanning)...I don't know. Armor denting is partly from Bobby's Aura, but will partly be from he or whomever my Warlord is giving "Storm of Fire" for -1AP to as much of my army as possible. Rerolls to hit, rerolls to wound, and AP-1 to every weapon sounds pretty decent. I'll make do with it. I'll take a look at the Storm Cannon Leviathan Dreadnought tomorrow to see how many points it is, where it would fit in, what I'd have to substitute out, etc.

*edit* I just costed out a storm cannon leviathan, which came out to 303 points. It had *better* be a beast at that price; that's almost a Guilliman. With two Storm Cannon Arrays, that's 20 STR7 shots per turn. Those two Dreadnoughts also have 20 shots per turn; mixed STR7 and STR5, for almost 100 points less, with more things to kill....so while it's a beast, I'm not sure it fits the theme of "not having all my eggs in one basket."