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The Leviathan is a beast when combined with re-roll auras. Keep him near you Commander and Lieutenant, even better if you take Storm of Fire.

I'm still not too convinced that Telion or the Scout Bikers are worth it. Dropping the Bikers frees up 71pts to boost your units elsewhere or upgrade Telion to something else, or at least replace him with a Lieutenant.

 Valkyrie wrote:
The Leviathan is a beast when combined with re-roll auras. Keep him near you Commander and Lieutenant, even better if you take Storm of Fire.

I'm still not too convinced that Telion or the Scout Bikers are worth it. Dropping the Bikers frees up 71pts to boost your units elsewhere or upgrade Telion to something else, or at least replace him with a Lieutenant.

I think I'm learning what Hulksmash's intent with this army is...and I see the role of both of those - at least theoretically because I haven't started playing 40k yet and I don't have any of these models yet.

Telion: On top of Telion's Quietus rifle, he gives +1 to hit to a nearby scout unit. I have two units of sniper scouts with a heavy bolter that can therefore cause D3 mortal wounds on a rerollable 2+. I'm a big fan of maximimizing efficiency, and part of me feels that the absence of camo cloaks on at least one or two of my scout sniper units is created wasted opportunity with Telion to make a particularly entrenched, objective-capturing, Cover+2 receiving, character-sniping, Mortal wound causing unit.

Scout Bikers: These guys exist because I need board control. I'm going to run into vehicle heavy armies. Knights. Super heavies. Triple Leman Russ platoons. These guys are to go shoot and assault things that my castle can't get to. I don't have the anti-tank to shoot up and kill a triple leman russ formation, but I can try clearing their screen with massed small arms fire, and assaulting them with a 71 point unit of scout bikers. Or these guys can go nab an objective, or contest it and use their special ultramarine or battleforged or whatever it is, "If we're contesting objectives, I get them instead of you" rule.

The leviathan *DOES* look like a beast. 303 points to get two stormcannon arrays, and two sets of 10 STR7 AP-2 D2 shots that can just mow down the field. What is the opportunity cost of those 303 points? Do I take out my dreadnoughts and remove my firebase? That's not enough points. Do I also take out my scout bikers and lose the ability to fast assault vehicles and contest objectives? Do I remove aggressors and the ability to clear a screen so guilliman can get into close combat and kill knights and baneblades and stuff?

I don't know. I need experience to be able to answer those things, and I have none...zero, no table-top experience, no practice - I have a demo game under my belt where yesterday a buddy taught me the principles of how to set up a game, deploy, move, shoot, charge, assault, and make morale tests. These sort of things are WAY beyond my comprehension right now - which is why I'm always asking the internet (and Hulksmash) to help me make these decisions now, because these decisions drive what I purchase and don't purchase. I am trying to distill my time, energy, and money efficiently into a workable army. Creating options comes later. Trying unit substitutions comes later. Experimentation and mix-and-match comes later.

First goal is to get a 2,000 point army list defined. Then buy the models for it, make them, learn how to use them...and not end up in a position where in a year I'm looking at one of my units like, "I wish I had spent this time, energy and money invested in this unit on a different unit."

It's ok if the Leviathan is more powerful and I don't have it. I've asked Hulksmash to take a look at it and consider whether it belongs in this list or not. Or for you guys to tell me what opportunity cost I should consider when trying to fit this guy into my army. I have 2,039 points in my army. I intellectually understand why each piece of my army exists. A leviathan is 303 points. I do not have the experience to weight the Leviathan's capabilities against the capabilities of whatever I might replace to get it, which is why I'm trying to outsource that decision making to YOU guys to help me decide which models to buy. I just need reassurance that I have a 2,000 point army list that makes sense, so that I can go buy the models, bring it to life, and learn how to play 40k with it.

Does that make sense? I can't process "The Leviathan is great" in a vacuum because I don't have contextual understanding of this game yet to fit it into a list that I'm only beginning to intellectually grasp.

face a Castellian and say goodbye to that Leviathan. I like them myself but your existing list mitigates the damage a Castellian does to your army.

Stick with your present list and see how it does.... its very solid and with the ever changing meta this list shouldnt be left in the dust while you build it.

BTW ... since you have commited to running Marines , that means your playing 40k on expert

Just my two cents but the Leviathan has never let me down. Never.

The amount of firepower it can put out is amazing. Mixed with Gman and Tiggy it becomes even more insane.

If someone wants to dump an entire Castallan into him go for it. With Tiggy he becomes -1 to hit and can even become T9. The 4++ will help it survive a bit longer too (if you really really want to you can pop smoke on the Leviathan and have it be -2 to hit but you forfeit shooting.).

I once ran Gman with two Leviathans supported by a Techmarine against castle guard. Between the 3 of them they killed:
-2 Sentienls
-1 Leman Russ
-2 Hellhounds
-2 Chimeras
-1 Manticore
-1 Basilisk

Backed properly by supporting units they can be a force multiplayer. The only gripe I have is them being relic and price point in really money.

 zedsdead wrote:


BTW ... since you have commited to running Marines , that means your playing 40k on expert

I wouldn't have it any other way.

That's the joy of competition - finding the angle, the exploit, the edge, trying to get better, perfect your game, and at the top of it...using non-traditional choices and tactics to take down the "powerhouse netlists." In most of 5th edition (my last point of reference), the powerhouse armies were Razorspam SW, Psycannon Spam GK, Chimera / Parking Lot spam IG. Eight out of 10 tournaments games were going to be against one of those three. I picked Dark Eldar (3rd edition DE codex in 5th edition) because NOBODY played them, because they were universally agreed to be the worst codex. If not the worst, tied with Necrons, worse even than Sisters of Battle. I was stomping people with Orks, and wanted to raise my handicap, so I downgraded to DE. After a ridiculous year or two of rolling people with DE, they got a new codex, got more powerful, became more popular, and I downgraded to Necrons, the new "Worst army" in 40k.

I want that again. I'm gonna run pure, non-soup Space Marines. I'm going to model them to disadvantage myself as Angry Marines. The internet agrees my list is not that great. I'm going to try getting really, really good with it. I want my angry marines to double power fist those titan and knight netlists into shock. Every time I lose, I'm going to pore over every detail, comb over over move in minute, excruciating detail to figure out what I did wrong. I'll write battle reports, take pictures, and crowd-source out to other people to tell me what I did wrong. That's part of why I did well back in the day. I spent so much time figuring out what I did wrong, asking what I did wrong, posting what I did so people could point out what I did wrong, so I could learn from it and get better.

I'm looking forward to the journey. I'm probably going to lose, a lot. I have to relearn to play, I'm doing it with the "worst codex," and not using a "good list" from that codex. I'm going to learn that list and its tactical applications up, down, left, right, sideways, in five dimensions. If there comes a day when I feel supremely competent in my generalship, and my losses are attributed solely to my list not being able to compete, then I'll relook at my models. But until then, its gonna be a blast.

Getting a win isn't fun to me. Overcoming a challenge is. There is no fun in clubbing baby seals, but being a baby seal that clubs back is awesome.

okay, outside of a vacuum? The Leviathan is still a monster. he's got 8" movement, so he's manoeuvrable. He's a large model, and one that's rightfully feared. people will make his ass a priority. and unless they're packing a knight castellan (which you'll only see in v competitive play), he'll quite happily take all the shots you need him to. pair with Tigurius for 115pts after chapter approved and you've got a heavy wound, -1 to hit, T9, beast that can hit hard at range, and up close can toast your enemies with twin heavy flamers. he's not even bad in assault, with Tiggy boosting his T to 9, his strength rises as well, meaning he's hitting and wounding on 2's most of the time. -pro tip- the smaller the engagement, the more incredible the Levi becomes. he's happy in lists of any size, and is equally apt at taking down infantry or tanks/monsters... since investing in mine my marines don't see that battlegrid without their honoured dreadnought battle brother.


tactically he draws fire, creates area-denials and boy does he kill stuff.... strongly recommend one if hulksmash gives you the green light

GamerGuy

 GamerGuy wrote:
okay, outside of a vacuum? The Leviathan is still a monster. he's got 8" movement, so he's manoeuvrable. He's a large model, and one that's rightfully feared. people will make his ass a priority. and unless they're packing a knight castellan (which you'll only see in v competitive play), he'll quite happily take all the shots you need him to. pair with Tigurius for 115pts after chapter approved and you've got a heavy wound, -1 to hit, T9, beast that can hit hard at range, and up close can toast your enemies with twin heavy flamers. he's not even bad in assault, with Tiggy boosting his T to 9, his strength rises as well, meaning he's hitting and wounding on 2's most of the time. -pro tip- the smaller the engagement, the more incredible the Levi becomes. he's happy in lists of any size, and is equally apt at taking down infantry or tanks/monsters... since investing in mine my marines don't see that battlegrid without their honoured dreadnought battle brother.


tactically he draws fire, creates area-denials and boy does he kill stuff.... strongly recommend one if hulksmash gives you the green light

GamerGuy

hey Gamerguy!

Hulksmash and I had a midnight New Years Eve phone call to chat about the Leviathan. I've been gone since 5th, so only have an intellectual understanding of knights, insofar that they are "not quite titans, but super heavy walkers." Hulksmash said that Knights are OP right now - incredibly so, and the feedback didn't make it back to GW in time for CA2018, 6-9 months ago when they were finalizing the content.

I can't tell you all of what he said about Knights, but the part that stuck with me was that they have weapons (especially the Castellan) that go up to STR16 and will always hit on a 2+, cause up to 9 wounds per shot, shoot that 6 times in a turn, and that's just with one of its guns. So any models you put down that are worth something and targetable are going to simply disappear - you can't fight a knight in a slug-fest.

With that said, I'm going to work on the 2k list that I have, try bringing it to life, and in the future if I want to get a Leviathan for fun or giggles (or if no one in my local meta runs knights), I'll break it out for fun play...but I at least now intellectually understand why it is a bad choice for a take all comers list. Which in turn I'm struggling with. Hulksmash also tells me that you can't build a TAC in 8th edition. In 5th edition, I had a single 1850 Dark Eldar army list. I never changed it. I took it everywhere - California to New York to D.C. to Florida - same list, same models, one-size-fits all. It wasn't the strongest codex, or the best assembly of units from the codex, but I knew it inside out, upside down, and could make it sing; so when a new challenge came out, I knew how to adapt the tool I had on the field.

I'm intellectually struggling with the idea that you can't do that. I hear him saying it (and other people saying it), I just can't...conceive of it. Practice makes perfect; you can't keep changing the tool around and pursue perfection. Or you can and I'm not capable of seeing outside of my laser focused narrow vision. Anyway, no Leviathan for now.

Dash... Hulk is correct in that it’s very hard to build TaC list now a days.. however, as I’m sure he told you, it’s better to list build to take the most advantage of the Missions and to limit the amount of damage you take vs armies you struggle with. Power armor armies struggle in 8th due to certain physics within the game now.

Btw .. I’m not gaking on the Levi. I love mine but he’s hard to justify bringing in a competitive meta that dares me to field 300+ points of vehicle that begs to be removed in 1 turn by a Castellian

Ultra (Angry) Marines? I can't wait to see what your guy does to Guilliman.

 zedsdead wrote:
Dash... Hulk is correct in that it’s very hard to build TaC list now a days.. however, as I’m sure he told you, it’s better to list build to take the most advantage of the Missions and to limit the amount of damage you take vs armies you struggle with. Power armor armies struggle in 8th due to certain physics within the game now.

Btw .. I’m not gaking on the Levi. I love mine but he’s hard to justify bringing in a competitive meta that dares me to field 300+ points of vehicle that begs to be removed in 1 turn by a Castellian

Agreed on all points be Zed...

8th edition is about maximizing the ITC mission points whilst "keeping your opponent busy" with your army and maybe mitigate his point tally as well.

Get comfy with your angry marine list and the new edition game mechanic. Then, when you're able to wrap your head around the missions, I'm sure your generalship will come through for some angry curb stomping.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Ultra (Angry) Marines? I can't wait to see what your guy does to Guilliman.

Commissar Fuklaw carrying Guilliman's Sword - the EMPEROR'S FLAMING SWORD - which he looted from Guilliman - while he rides guilliman into combat like Guilliman is a ANGRY WARSTEED. Imagine Fuklaw pulling imaginary underwear out of Guilliman's armor to use as reigns to control him, or putting one hand on the back of his neck to control him, or using the emperor's sword as a riding crop to whip Guilliman into a gallop with.

Or imagine Fuklaw sitting on Guilliman's shoulders, like they're in a pool-game of Marco Polo, while Guilliman is charging into combat and Fuklaw is brandishing Guilliman's sword in a furious rage.

I commissioned a separate artist on another website to immortalize that scene onto canvas for me.

Hey folks!

The final form of my army list is now in the OP. Thank you all so much for such incredible feedback and advice. It was an amazing learning experience that helped me learn the strengths and weaknesses of some of the units in the Space Marine codex.

If you don't want to go back to the OP to see the list, here it is again!

500 points

Patrol Detachment
HQ1: Captain: Jump Pack, Stormbolter, Thunderhammer, Armor Indomitus
TC1: Scout Squad: 4x Sniper Rifle Scouts + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle + Boltgun.
EL1: Aggressor Squad: 2x Boltstorm/Fragstorm Aggressors + 1x Sergeant
FA1: Scout Bike Squad: 3x Scout Bikers (Twin Boltgun & Astartes Shotgun & Bolt Pistol) + Sergeant (Twin Boltgun & Stormbolter & Astartes Shotgun)
DT1: Razorback + Twin Assault Cannons

2000 Points

Ultramarine Battalion
HQ1: Tigerius
HQ2: Telion
TC1: Scout Squad: 3x Sniper Rifle Scouts + 1x Heavy Bolter Scout + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter.
TC2: Scout Squad: 3x Sniper Rifle Scouts + 1x Heavy Bolter Scout + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter.
TC3: Scout Squad: 3x Sniper Rifle Scouts + 1x Heavy Bolter Scout + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter.
TC4: Scout Squad: 3x Sniper Rifle Scouts + 1x Heavy Bolter Scout + Sergeant with Sniper Rifle & Stormbolter.

EL1: Aggressor Squad: 4x Boltstorm/Fragstorm Aggressors + 1x Sergeant
EL2: Company Ancient: Standard Bearer, Storm Bolter, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant
EL3: Company Veterans: 4x Veterans with Stormbolter & Stormshield + 1x Sergeant with Stormbolter + Stormshield
EL4: Company Veterans: 4x Veterans with Stormbolter & Stormshield + 1x Sergeant with Stormbolter + Stormshield
EL5: Dreadnought: Twin Autocannon + Twin Heavy Bolter
EL6: Dreadnought: Twin Autocannon + Twin Heavy Bolter

FA1: Scout Bike Squad: 2x Scout Bikers (Twin Boltgun & Astartes Shotgun & Bolt Pistol) + Sergeant (Twin Boltgun & Stormbolter & Astartes Shotgun)
FA2: Scout Bike Squad: 2x Scout Bikers (Twin Boltgun & Astartes Shotgun & Bolt Pistol) + Sergeant (Twin Boltgun & Stormbolter & Astartes Shotgun)
FA3: Scout Bike Squad: 2x Scout Bikers (Twin Boltgun & Astartes Shotgun & Bolt Pistol) + Sergeant (Twin Boltgun & Stormbolter & Astartes Shotgun)

HS1: Rapier Quad Mortar + 2x Astartes Gunners
HS2: Rapier Quad Mortar + 2x Astartes Gunners
HS3: Rapier Quad Mortar + 2x Astartes Gunners

Heavy Auxiliary:
LOW: Rouboute Guilliman

My 2 cents.

You can keep on getting critique and tweaking your lists forever here, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But the best way is to take the plunge, make a list and stick to it. play it and see what works.

You might lose horribly, you might find the units you picked didn't work that day. But they might the next...

@Dashofpepper this is a good thread, thanks for starting it. I'm just curious why you want to use Ultramarines as your canon army instead of SM chapters that are more melee oriented, such as Space Wolves, Blood Angels and maybe Black Templars?

I started my Angry Marines chapter last week when I stumbled upon them while researching Black Templars. I used my new Angry Marinesin two games of Kill Team and I think they are great fun! I got inspired to paint Space Marines that have been collecting dust for decades. Anyway, I plan to use them as Black Templars when in a canon only environment. I realize that BT are not stars of the tournament meta but I like their storyline and their list building flexibility.