Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For some reason I have a really wierd urge to see some Catachan jungle fighter beat the gak out of some other IG for making fun of one of the regiments Ogryns. Is there anything like that in any of the books or other lore?

I doubt any IG personnel is dumb enough to make fun of a ogryn, not even ratlings, as they are usually sniper/sharpshooter.

 Big Mac wrote:
I doubt any IG personnel is dumb enough to make fun of a ogryn, not even ratlings, as they are usually sniper/sharpshooter.

There are only 3 things that are truly infinite. the universe, human stupidity, and the Imperiums Xenophobia

"Hey, unusually violent Giant! Yeah you! Your mother smelled of elderberry and your father..."

*SPLUTCH!*

The Catachan watched as Guardsman Nhonayme was vaporized by the impact of the Ogryn's fist to his torso. He reflected for a moment that there could be a less lethal intelligence test for off-worlders, but they wouldn't be as entertaining.

**********************

Gordon the Ratling brushed himself off. The too-tall bastards had roughed him up a bit playing "Heave the Half-man". Well, joke was on them. He'd picked up some Emperor's Fury peppers on his last leave, and the cook was his brother's-inlaw's-cousin's-wife's-son. Gordon had heard that people could actually have their colons fall out after eating the pepper, even in small amounts. By this time tomorrow, he'd know for sure.

********************

Abhumans don't really need protection.

 greatbigtree wrote:
"Hey, unusually violent Giant! Yeah you! Your mother smelled of elderberry and your father..."

*SPLUTCH!*

The Catachan watched as Guardsman Nhonayme was vaporized by the impact of the Ogryn's fist to his torso. He reflected for a moment that there could be a less lethal intelligence test for off-worlders, but they wouldn't be as entertaining.

**********************

Gordon the Ratling brushed himself off. The too-tall bastards had roughed him up a bit playing "Heave the Half-man". Well, joke was on them. He'd picked up some Emperor's Fury peppers on his last leave, and the cook was his brother's-inlaw's-cousin's-wife's-son. Gordon had heard that people could actually have their colons fall out after eating the pepper, even in small amounts. By this time tomorrow, he'd know for sure.

********************

Abhumans don't really need protection.

Still kind wanna see it though

Write your own fiction. I just did in like, 30 seconds.

Start off with the scene you want...

Mess hall? Parade Ground? In the field?

Create 5 characters that populate the scene, plus extras?

What lead to this situation? That's the back story. Does the abhuman deserve a dressing down for having done something legit stupid, or is this someone having a power trip?

Describe the back story. Gives the key scene gravitas. Is the abhuman a prop, or protagonist? Is the Catachan a hero for stepping up for the big guy, or is the Big Guy the protagonist resisting an urge to murderate the aggressor?

You could crank something out in 15 mins.

These people aren't a regiment, but they do exist. They are called commissars. You don't want to mess with these. They will tell you when it's ok do insult an abhuman and when it's not. They will also tell you when to talk, fight or urinate and it would be ill advise to disagree with them on any subject. If they tell you to pick flowers and sing a love song to an ogryn, you pick the priestest roses you can find and you channel your inner Frank Sinatra.

Plus, insulting an ogryn is a waste of time, he will probably not understand the insult and if you get in a fist fight against one and your name isn't Guilliman, your chance of winning it are probably slim to none. As for the ratlings, they usually run the blackmarket. Only an idiot will insult the guy who can afford more candy bars in your ration whatever drug smooth your edge off.

I don't understand why abhumans are even in the lore as the imperium was supposedly rabidly xenophobic to the point where they wiped out every mutant species they came across. Navigators are only tolerated because they are necessary for warp travel, but are largely shunned. Sanctioned psykers are treated with fear and suspicion, and unsanctioned psykers are basically "kill on sight". It makes no sense why these mutants would be tolerated to the point where they are actually allowed to fight in the armies of the Imperium.

That being said, I realize that this is just my opinion on the lore.

w1zard wrote:
I don't understand why abhumans are even in the lore as the imperium was supposedly rabidly xenophobic to the point where they wiped out every mutant species they came across. Navigators are only tolerated because they are necessary for warp travel, but are largely shunned. Sanctioned psykers are treated with fear and suspicion, and unsanctioned psykers are basically "kill on sight". It makes no sense why these mutants would be tolerated to the point where they are actually allowed to fight in the armies of the Imperium.

That being said, I realize that this is just my opinion on the lore.

Many abhumans were indeed killed for their deviancy. Ogryns and ratlings are to mutants and abhumans what sanctionned psykers are to witches and psykers in general. Their genetic patrimony was stable. Their forms were due to rapid evolution caused by environmental pressures, not the Warp on anything like that. They had powers and skills that made them uniquely useful and thus are tolerated. Mutants and abhumans in the Imperium to exists and live. They do live in constant fear of pogrom and abject conditions. Those who serve in the Guard do so as auxiliaries where they are treated little better then penal troopers. If condamned prisonners can fight as cannon fodder or first line trooper, why not those abhumans? It's a mildly useful way to dispose of them. I don't think it goes against the lore at all. I think it gives it a much needed nuance and realism.

I don't recall any specific accounts, but it is well within possibility. While Abhumans are often the subject of discrimination it is not a universal thing. The Catachans certainly don't seem to mind the Ogruns. I could definitely see them defending their brothers in arms from a more closed minded regiment's slurs.

Discrimination against fellow guardsmen falls under a host of laws and rules regarding discipline and conduct. So guardsmen whose hatred of Abhumans got to the point where fighting broke out would be in violation of those laws and could expect to be court-martialed. To raise a hand against your fellow servants of the Emperor is a grave offense. Guardsmen are property of the Imperium and Departmento Munitorum. Harming that property is a grave offense.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:
It makes no sense why these mutants would be tolerated to the point where they are actually allowed to fight in the armies of the Imperium.

It depends on where you are. The Imperium as a whole considers certain Abhumans still human enough to not be considered mutants. Ogruns, Ratlings, Navigators, etc... are considered within the tolerated bounds of genetic deviation. Specific cultures within the Imperium might have more strict views, as is their right on their worlds, but its not a concern for the Imperium at large. Mutation isn't itself a bad thing. The Imperium knows that humanity is always mutating and evolving and they desire what improvement will come, however they know from experience that most of the time it is a very bad thing. It must be controlled and monitored and not be allowed to happen willy-nilly. Thats why mutants are generally killed on sight. Only if specific types of mutants are proven to be valuable will they be tolerated, like Ogruns and Ratlings.

Its actually an example of the Imperium being practical. Many people think the Imperium is colossally stupid, however its actually the opposite. There is a rational behind their dogma and behavior. They hate mutants and Xeno yes, but they do make concessions when it is in their interest. Ogruns and Ratlings are not so deviant as to be a danger, and they are useful to the Imperium. Likewise, they might make alliances of convenience with Xeno when it is the pragmatic thing to do. It is not done lightly and they never trust them completely.

epronovost wrote:
If condamned prisonners can fight as cannon fodder or first line trooper, why not those abhumans?

Because condemned prisoners are still human?

epronovost wrote:
It's a mildly useful way to dispose of them.

It's also dangerous to give these mutants weapons, and disrespectful to the honor of the Guard to have those... things... fight alongside human troops.

I'm just trying to give the response I think the Imperium would give. Like I said, I personally believe the fact that abhumans exist in the lore is "stretching" things to get hobbit and ogre expys in the setting and they really don't fit in with other established lore.

w1zard wrote:
Like I said, I personally believe the fact that abhumans exist in the lore is "stretching" things to get hobbit and ogre expys in the setting and they really don't fit in with other established lore.

There used to be beastman regiments. The description of those was basically "cannon fodder", screaming penitent fanatics sent in to blunt the enemy before the real troops mopped up. And Squats, basically dwarves in space.

The IoM also allows mutants to live in some places, provided they do something useful like work dangerous jobs in place of "real" humans. On most feudal or primitive worlds mutants are slain outright, sure, but more advanced worlds are perfectly happy with exploiting them instead. That's not something new, it's been so since Rogue Trader.

Whatever happened to the beastmen? Were they retconned away, turned into chaos worshipers, or what?

NVM, I used my gooooogle skillz and learned...stuff.

-STS

Spetulhu wrote:
On most feudal or primitive worlds mutants are slain outright, sure, but more advanced worlds are perfectly happy with exploiting them instead. That's not something new, it's been so since Rogue Trader.

Again, it is not a case of "it's new stuff and I don't like it"... It is a case of "it never should have been a thing in the first place because it clashes with other lore in a misguided attempt to introduce non-human races that are friendly with humanity."

Rogue trader also had the ultramarines having a half-eldar librarian... let's be honest, RT had some awful lore.

The key point is that abhumans are not mutants. They are officially designated as such within the labyrinthine bureaucracy that is the Imperium. There are lists. No one can question their place in the armies of Man, because the paperwork says so. Abuman worlds are tithed, often collecting plenty of meat for the Guard. This practice goes back millennia. To change the classification of an abhuman strain is a herculean task. Even just the request for could spend decades in a scribe's inbox on an administrative planet before being seen. So things continue as they always have. The Imperium runs on paperwork, after all.

slade the sniper wrote:
Whatever happened to the beastmen? Were they retconned away, turned into chaos worshipers, or what?

Inquisition dislike them so much they declared them mutants and most of them were killed/sent to the meat-grinder/banished. Not everywhere, though. Beastmen are still a fluffy thing in the Imperium, but they are usually found on some fringe world or somewhere where they are harder to be found, or somewhere where the population treats them violent coughing nice, despite the Inquisitional order. Perhaps for their traits, skills, abilities or usefullness. For example, in my fan-lore, Beastmen took the role of Ogryns and act as heavy assault troops, as regular Ogryns are not present.
Most of the Beastmen that survived the culling turned to Chaos, becasue they are treated better there.

See the 6th and 7th ed dark millennium sections of the brb on abhumans to find out about how beastmen are classed.

They are a sanctioned strain of abhumans under very strict controls, such as it being a crime to take them off planet. Note they are under the process of reclassification.

 Trickstick wrote:
The key point is that abhumans are not mutants.

Lol what? They are the exact definition of what a "mutant" is...

 Trickstick wrote:
They are officially designated as such within the labyrinthine bureaucracy that is the Imperium. There are lists. No one can question their place in the armies of Man, because the paperwork says so. Abuman worlds are tithed, often collecting plenty of meat for the Guard. This practice goes back millennia. To change the classification of an abhuman strain is a herculean task. Even just the request for could spend decades in a scribe's inbox on an administrative planet before being seen. So things continue as they always have. The Imperium runs on paperwork, after all.

Look, I just disagree with abhumans serving in the imperial guard (or even being able to exist alongside the Imperium) ever being a piece of lore in the first place. My reasoning being that it clashes with the Imperium's "all mutants must die" ideology. You can agree with, or disagree with my opinion, but quoting me lore that I have already said I disagreed with and think is stupid is not going to change my mind on the matter. I am fully aware that the lore is canon, I personally just think it shouldn't have ever been a "thing".

w1zard wrote:

Look, I just disagree with abhumans serving in the imperial guard (or even being able to exist alongside the Imperium) ever being a piece of lore in the first place. My reasoning being that it clashes with the Imperium's "all mutants must die" ideology. You can agree with, or disagree with my opinion, but quoting me lore that I have already said I disagreed with and think is stupid is not going to change my mind on the matter. I am fully aware that the lore is canon, I personally just think it shouldn't have ever been a "thing".

What do you think of Space Marines? By all account they are mutant too and worse for it they were made to be mutants. Furthermore, unlike astropath and navigator they aren't strictly necessary for the Imperium survival. Once upon a time, Space Marines were rabid criminals used and disposed as weapons of war. Now, they are lords, knights and champions of the Imperium. I personnaly think their first incarnation was more consistent with the Imperium view on mutants and psykers. What do you think?

epronovost wrote:
What do you think of Space Marines? By all account they are mutant too and worse for it they were made to be mutants. Furthermore, unlike astropath and navigator they aren't strictly necessary for the Imperium survival. Once upon a time, Space Marines were rabid criminals used and disposed as weapons of war. Now, they are lords, knights and champions of the Imperium. I personnaly think their first incarnation was more consistent with the Imperium view on mutants and psykers. What do you think?

I think the space marines being a creation of the emperor himself are an exception to the rule. The same way as viewing an angel vs a demon. Neither is human, but demons are to be reviled and shunned, whereas angels are to be treated with awe and respect as the personal agents of god (the emperor in this case).

w1zard wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The key point is that abhumans are not mutants.

Lol what? They are the exact definition of what a "mutant" is...

Not really.
There are three types of mutants in 40k, and one is functionally discontinued and ignorable.

First, we have the abhumans, particularly, squats, ratlings and ogryns. These mutations are produced through high and low gravity world and different environmental conditions. These are broadly acceptable to the Imperium.

Second, we had mutants produced by exposure to NBC materials (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical). This was inspired by AD2000, Judge Dredd and the like and has largely been dropped since RT, and replaced with a sort of handwaved <insert future health conditions> here, or 'stunted frames' or 'withered limbs' or what have you kind of 'birth defects' without ever directly saying that.

Third, we've got chaos mutants, including beastmen, which currently are pretty much always bad. The old fluff did use them in guard armies, but they were virulently disliked and not common. The old WD articles that made it into the 40k compendium are flush with quotes from commanders that refuse to use them or even serve with any regiment that does use them. Even in the old fluff, they were considered distinctly different and worse than ratlings or ogryns.

---
I very much doubt we'll see 'imperial beastmen' again. Just because modern GW has a notable preference to stick to themes and distinct armies (unless they're marines), and chaos mutations have really taken pride of place in the setting. I'm actually a little surprised ratlings and ogryns weren't squatted, especially when sniper rifles started appearing as special weapons on guard models.

In Guants Ghosts, the Esrah apt Nigt is an abhuman from a population that had existed alongside but separate from imperial humans for generations. He ends up owing a main character (Colonel-Commissar Giant) a life dept and accompanies him and the regiment of Ghosts in the ensuing novels. Despite being tall and slender, he is strong, stealthy and deadly so even though some discrimination does or may have happened behind the scenes, and I am sure many of the ghosts did and would stick up for him, I doubt he really needs the help lol

Voss wrote:
First, we have the abhumans, particularly, squats, ratlings and ogryns. These mutations are produced through high and low gravity world and different environmental conditions. These are broadly acceptable to the Imperium.

Again, you aren't getting my point. I'm saying there should be no distinction between abhumans and any other mutant because they are ALL mutants no matter the reason. IMO any distinction is just a flimsy justification for space hobbits and space ogres and goes against the anti-mutant lore that has been firmly established in every other part of 40k. It shouldn't be a thing. If you disagree with me, that is fine, but don't quote the lore to me to "correct" me when I fundamentally don't accept the lore because I think it is a stupid holdover from RT.

Abhumans are stable deviations at the extreme of the 'standard' human form.

The hated mutations are those that aren't inherited and are widely viewed as being caused by spiritual corruption.

In this regard abhumans aren't a mutation as such, but I see your point.

I think the difference really boils down to mutants and human sub-species.

Mutants cant relaibly breed and reproduce thier traits, while a sib species of human (a “stable” strain of mutant) can. The imperium must treat that as an important difference.

nareik wrote:
Abhumans are stable deviations at the extreme of the 'standard' human form.

Underlined part is all that matters. It means kill them.

nareik wrote:
In this regard abhumans aren't a mutation as such, but I see your point.

Yeah, like I said, I acknowledge that abhumans are canon. But IMO they really shouldn't be.

w1zard wrote:
Yeah, like I said, I acknowledge that abhumans are canon. But IMO they really shouldn't be.

That's the view of large parts of the Imperium. If you are on an Ecclesiarchy shrine world, in a Sororitas convent or something similar then any abhumans are going to be burned in short order. You are out on the fringes, some trade hub near a Ratling world, or something similar then people's attitudes will be more lenient. The point is that the Imperium is such a gargantuan place that there is almost no unified stance on anything.

So basically I agree that your stance is perfectly valid, for parts of the Imperium. Others, not so much. Plenty of room for everyone to have what they want.

w1zard wrote:

Voss wrote:
First, we have the abhumans, particularly, squats, ratlings and ogryns. These mutations are produced through high and low gravity world and different environmental conditions. These are broadly acceptable to the Imperium.

Again, you aren't getting my point. .

I am, you're just completely wrong (they don't kill abhumans on sight). Ogryns and ratlings aren't treated like chaos mutants and never have been, 'deviance' isn't a binary, even in 40k. Otherwise there isn't any room for space wolfs or blood angels, or dozens of side characters that don't fit the standard human norm, but are still there, some even valued by members of the crazed bigot organizations.

I don't care that you don't like it, that's irrelevant to everyone that isn't you.

Voss wrote:
I am, you're just completely wrong (they don't kill abhumans on sight). Ogryns and ratlings aren't treated like chaos mutants and never have been, 'deviance' isn't a binary, even in 40k. Otherwise there isn't any room for space wolfs or blood angels, or dozens of side characters that don't fit the standard human norm, but are still there, some even valued by members of the crazed bigot organizations.

I don't care that you don't like it, that's irrelevant to everyone that isn't you.

Cool, you disagree with my very subjective opinion on a piece of lore that I think is stupid but you obviously don't. Want a medal?

 Trickstick wrote:
So basically I agree that your stance is perfectly valid, for parts of the Imperium. Others, not so much. Plenty of room for everyone to have what they want.

I get it. I personally just don't think it should be a thing ANYWHERE in the Imperium because in my mind it clashes with the anti-mutant sentiment that is prevalent in all other parts of the lore. As I said I think it was just a flimsy excuse to get space hobbits/space dwarves/space ogres into the setting. It's ok if you disagree, I acknowledge that the official lore doesn't agree with my POV, I'm just stating my opinion.

Where do you draw the line? Catachans aren't standard humans. Fenrisians aren't either. What about those purple eyes cadians? Nuke them from orbit I say, it's the only way to be sure.