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 Blackie wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:


Anyway, I was thinking that maybe a WG plasma squad + cheap Lord for the rerolls might be nice. Kit 5 out with combi-plasma and plasma pistol, 4 with Stormbolter/SS (to not break the bank and have some ablative wounds) and give your Lord his own combi-plasma (and maybe a solid melee weapon to dissuade would-be chargers). You basically pay 65 (?) points to save 2 CP (you don't have to use the outflank stratagem), the freedom to deploy wherever you want instead of being restricted to table edges and you are guaranteed to arrive safely (albeit in T2) because you want this glasscannon of a unit to arrive intact. Will cost you about 350-400 points but spitting out 17 overcharged plasma shots every turn in almost-safety is not something to be underestimated. You'll get a guaranteed umm... beta-strike? and your opponent will have to divert firepower to them to prevent his precious tanks and monsters from being reduced to ash. Which in turn allows your choppy stuff to get in charge range relatively safely.

Both wolf lords and WG can take jump packs though which give them free deep strike. Not only that also better movement and the FLY keyword. Those 10 jump packs also cost less than a drop pod.

At the moment only Grey hunters and blood claws may benefit from a pod since everything else cannot ride in it, have free access to deepstrike or doesn't need to leave their spot (long fangs). But why would you put troops in a pod? If you want the plasma combo, and don't have access to WG, you could bring 10 grey hunters with two plasma guns, one combi plasma and 2 plasma pistols in a pod with a jump packs lord that deep strikes near them eventually. I think it's the only use SW can think of a drop pod at the moment.

Hmm, you are correct, didn't think of that. That does indeed make pods exceedingly useless for SW Now if they could just disembark 3" as normal so they could get within 6" of enemy models... that would instantly fix a lot of Marine melee woes and give pods a good niche. Toss 9 WG with Wolf Claw + SS + Battle Leader with TH/SS, Wulfenstone and Saga of the Savage inside and let the shredding begin.

Marine plasma is lacking in a lot of ways. And 10 man squads are a really, really bad idea. Ablative wounds sound nice until you remember that morale exists, and marines with a sergeant are only leadership 8. Marines are the only army that really suffers from morale, and seriously, if you bring 10 man squads you will suffer morale losses.

And paying over 200 points for a pitiful number of plasma shots out of a pod is a bad idea. Just bring a leman russ tank commander and shoot out 2d6+4d3 plasma shots with bs3+ on a T8 platform, from range. You'll save points and get more miles out of it. Also it's 1 HQ of your mandatory Guard portion of your list.

 Marmatag wrote:
Marine plasma is lacking in a lot of ways. And 10 man squads are a really, really bad idea. Ablative wounds sound nice until you remember that morale exists, and marines with a sergeant are only leadership 8. Marines are the only army that really suffers from morale, and seriously, if you bring 10 man squads you will suffer morale losses.

And paying over 200 points for a pitiful number of plasma shots out of a pod is a bad idea. Just bring a leman russ tank commander and shoot out 2d6+4d3 plasma shots with bs3+ on a T8 platform, from range. You'll save points and get more miles out of it. Also it's 1 HQ of your mandatory Guard portion of your list.

Yeah a far cry where marines where one of the few armies that could take special weapons that matter a lot more cause of their high leadership and higher range capabilities now they erm die?

So what if...
No rules changes to deep strike
Drop pods are free
Can only be used in a game if they are set up off board with a unit in them during deployment (so no using empty drop pods).

In effect they would become for players:-
Free tactical flexibility which would be great for some missions.

And for GW:-
Lots of sales.

Can't see how it would be overpowering, but I could be wrong?

The idea is based on Epic where Space Marine armies can choose to take Rhino transports or drop pods before a battle. Makes them quite flexible and can alter tactics depending on who they are facing.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
So what if...
No rules changes to deep strike
Drop pods are free
Can only be used in a game if they are set up off board with a unit in them during deployment (so no using empty drop pods).

In effect they would become for players:-
Free tactical flexibility which would be great for some missions.

And for GW:-
Lots of sales.

Can't see how it would be overpowering, but I could be wrong?

Ok, so three drop pods with servitors would be 20 pts. each. And since GW hasnt clarified what the same datasheet actually means i could use 3x3 of them. Thats 180 pts. for blocking movement of enemy units, for holding objectives, for linebreaker, etc.

 Marmatag wrote:
Marine plasma is lacking in a lot of ways. And 10 man squads are a really, really bad idea. Ablative wounds sound nice until you remember that morale exists, and marines with a sergeant are only leadership 8. Marines are the only army that really suffers from morale, and seriously, if you bring 10 man squads you will suffer morale losses.

And paying over 200 points for a pitiful number of plasma shots out of a pod is a bad idea. Just bring a leman russ tank commander and shoot out 2d6+4d3 plasma shots with bs3+ on a T8 platform, from range. You'll save points and get more miles out of it. Also it's 1 HQ of your mandatory Guard portion of your list.

Plasma Cannons are 1D3, and sponsons don't get to fire twice. 2D6+2D3, averaging 11 Plasma rather than 15. Don't know how many points that is.

Command Squad with Plasma gets 10 Plasma shots in Rapid-fire Range at 125 points. Devastator Squad with Cherub averages 10 shots as well. Comparable offensive capability to the Leman Russ. Heck, two 5-man Tactical Squads get you 8 Plasma shots in Rapid-Fire range. Mitigate morale by taking the Relic Banner or 5-man squads.

"paying over 200 points for a pitiful number of plasma shots out of a pod is a bad idea." 2 Command Squads will get you 20 Plasma shots out of a single pod. I'm not sure if it's worth it, but it's on my radar.

What if: jump packs lose the deep strike rule as well as terminators. Drop pods can carry one dread and infantries of any kinds. Now they would have a role.

Add some equipment and rules that make a Drop Pod worth its cost.

DP must deep strike more than 9 away, but not the disembatking models

Models disembarked cannot assault but can fire or advance

DP have at 0 cost a deep strike Beacon that allow deep striking units to land within 6’ from enemy unit if within 6 from theBeacon itself.

GW didnt realize that many units have the ability to deepstrike. Either via stratagem, JP, grav chutes, or its built in, like terminators. Drop pods have become (almost) obsolete. There is very little use for them. The price should be 30-40. If the price drop continues the same way like it has in the past they will become an option in 2 years

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe sternguard for Black Templars. Maybe.

Why BT? It's not as though Sternguard are dangerous in melee.

You can still tie stuff up and have a sarge swing a relic blade 3 times. Sternguard can beat chaff to death certainly.

I think just letting disembarking models disembark normally would fix them. Drop the pod at 9" disembark 3, you're now in melta range, rapid fire range, and a good charge range.

I like this.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well one of the CA play tests on FtN sounded like they dont understand the power level of units... you should listen to it (the one talking about SoB that was last week i think).

He was trying to argue that Tac armies are just as good and viable as Primaris b.c of the options, the main guy cut him off and was like "No, we are no going down this road neither are good" lol or something to that effect, it was a week ago. but i got the impression they really play at a lower tier level when play testing.


With the CA points like you said Ghorgul about Twin weapons, etc.. and that Pod cast, it is VERY clear they over value units with high options compare to dedicated roles.

A lot of playtesters use only ITC ruleset (and a few use nova) which also changes the balance. For example under the new ITC rules, custodes bikers are pretty awful. They can’t shoot or charge most infantry units due to ITC terrain rules. But in most games they’re fricken amazing

Bring in a proper "Deathwind" pod and a proper "support pod" ala V1 Epic and then pods are useful, otherwise let them drop T1 - even if in your deployment or no mans land only - gives them something nothing else can do.

drop a deathwind or two, which open and fire immediately they touch down, able to create a clear zone for a troop carrier to drop into.

add a support pop or two with some sort of seriously heavy weapon (IIRC Epic V1 had a plasma cannon, same as a titan carried, though lower rate of fire)

 Blackie wrote:
What if: jump packs lose the deep strike rule as well as terminators. Drop pods can carry one dread and infantries of any kinds. Now they would have a role.

How about we don't nerf GK more, just so other marines can use one unit more.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe sternguard for Black Templars. Maybe.

Why BT? It's not as though Sternguard are dangerous in melee.

You could always make Lias count as Black Templars CT so that they can just natively reroll charges anyway, and Lias takes care of the mobility thing.

It's legal, though very...odd, rather than flat out bad.

stratigo wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well one of the CA play tests on FtN sounded like they dont understand the power level of units... you should listen to it (the one talking about SoB that was last week i think).

He was trying to argue that Tac armies are just as good and viable as Primaris b.c of the options, the main guy cut him off and was like "No, we are no going down this road neither are good" lol or something to that effect, it was a week ago. but i got the impression they really play at a lower tier level when play testing.


With the CA points like you said Ghorgul about Twin weapons, etc.. and that Pod cast, it is VERY clear they over value units with high options compare to dedicated roles.

A lot of playtesters use only ITC ruleset (and a few use nova) which also changes the balance. For example under the new ITC rules, custodes bikers are pretty awful. They can’t shoot or charge most infantry units due to ITC terrain rules. But in most games they’re fricken amazing

What's special about ITC terrain rules?

Martel732 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well one of the CA play tests on FtN sounded like they dont understand the power level of units... you should listen to it (the one talking about SoB that was last week i think).

He was trying to argue that Tac armies are just as good and viable as Primaris b.c of the options, the main guy cut him off and was like "No, we are no going down this road neither are good" lol or something to that effect, it was a week ago. but i got the impression they really play at a lower tier level when play testing.


With the CA points like you said Ghorgul about Twin weapons, etc.. and that Pod cast, it is VERY clear they over value units with high options compare to dedicated roles.

A lot of playtesters use only ITC ruleset (and a few use nova) which also changes the balance. For example under the new ITC rules, custodes bikers are pretty awful. They can’t shoot or charge most infantry units due to ITC terrain rules. But in most games they’re fricken amazing

What's special about ITC terrain rules?

From what i hear, No they didnt have ITC terrain in mind.

ITC rules for terrain are completely different, 100% different. You should just watch the update video for it. I did a fast google search, i watched only 2-3min but it seems like he is going over it well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBScGToqIR4

 p5freak wrote:
GW didnt realize that many units have the ability to deepstrike. Either via stratagem, JP, grav chutes, or its built in, like terminators. Drop pods have become (almost) obsolete. There is very little use for them.

The major thing for Marines is that it's hard to Deep Strike with good firepower. Terminators can Deep Strike, sure, but they themselves are expensive, and their ranged weapon options are not particularly hard-hitting. Getting Thunder Hammer charges off is a nice idea, but it's far from guaranteed. A Drop Pod allows you to deliver a huge array of ranged weapon options within optimal range of the target, plus the troops disembarking cannot be intercepted. Pods are a guaranteed alpha strike capability for some of the best weapons in the armory.

Slanesh termintors are ok. But combi plasma and shoting twice is a very powerful combination when you drop in to <12" ranger.

Insectum7 768461 wrote: The major thing for Marines is that it's hard to Deep Strike with good firepower. Terminators can Deep Strike, sure, but they themselves are expensive, and their ranged weapon options are not particularly hard-hitting. Getting Thunder Hammer charges off is a nice idea, but it's far from guaranteed. A Drop Pod allows you to deliver a huge array of ranged weapon options within optimal range of the target, plus the troops disembarking cannot be intercepted. Pods are a guaranteed alpha strike capability for some of the best weapons in the armory.

BA company vets with plasma guns and chainswords and a smash captn don't need drop pods. Add one or two SS for better survivability.

"Mistakes were made" would be the classic, realistic reply to how accurate and frequent Deep Strike has been made.

Deep Strike should be a little bit more unreliable, to make it a sort of gamble. Not as bad as previous editions, but perhaps something like, place the initial model, roll D6", the opponent chooses the direction of the scatter, but it can't be into impassible terrain or on top of units. After the scatter is resolved, place the remaining models in coherency to the first. No model can be closer to enemy units than the first model placed.

Further, it would really be nice if GW made it so that folks reach for "high mobility" answers in the following order, by points, rules or other methods - with each having their own advantages and disadvantages:

Fast Attack > Transport > Drop Pod > Deep Strike.

Fast Attack: Good a grabbing objectives and harrassing enemy; poor at holding objectives or taking return fire

Transport: Fast, but can't hold objectives and can only provide light support

Drop Pod: Arrive where you want, but can't move afterwards

Deep Strike: Where you want (as long as there's a clear spot), but small units and slightly inaccurate

Like everything else, they could give an army *very* limited exclusions to that order - for example, give GK a method to more accurately drop in Deep Striking terminators, perhaps at the cost to Fast Attack units (essentially, the Termi's replace a Fast Attack slot to Deep Strike).

 Insectum7 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
GW didnt realize that many units have the ability to deepstrike. Either via stratagem, JP, grav chutes, or its built in, like terminators. Drop pods have become (almost) obsolete. There is very little use for them.

The major thing for Marines is that it's hard to Deep Strike with good firepower. Terminators can Deep Strike, sure, but they themselves are expensive, and their ranged weapon options are not particularly hard-hitting. Getting Thunder Hammer charges off is a nice idea, but it's far from guaranteed. A Drop Pod allows you to deliver a huge array of ranged weapon options within optimal range of the target, plus the troops disembarking cannot be intercepted. Pods are a guaranteed alpha strike capability for some of the best weapons in the armory.

Shooty termies are expensive but close combat oriente ones are certainly not. 5 Wolf Guard termies with 3 hammers & shields and 2 stormbolters & power fists are only 191 points. For the same amount of points you can get 5-6 meganobz which are considered a good unit.

They just need the good synergies though as the WG termies hit on 3s with hammers and fists pretty much everytime thanks to the faction trait, they can get up to +2 more attacks with proper auras and have a lot of characters, that you may want anyway, that give them re-rolls in both to hit and to wound rolls.

Shooty ones? Too expensive. SM have other shooty units that are more efficient points wise and bringing a units with both shooty and melee upgrades in insanely priced for 2W T4 models.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well one of the CA play tests on FtN sounded like they dont understand the power level of units... you should listen to it (the one talking about SoB that was last week i think).

He was trying to argue that Tac armies are just as good and viable as Primaris b.c of the options, the main guy cut him off and was like "No, we are no going down this road neither are good" lol or something to that effect, it was a week ago. but i got the impression they really play at a lower tier level when play testing.


With the CA points like you said Ghorgul about Twin weapons, etc.. and that Pod cast, it is VERY clear they over value units with high options compare to dedicated roles.

A lot of playtesters use only ITC ruleset (and a few use nova) which also changes the balance. For example under the new ITC rules, custodes bikers are pretty awful. They can’t shoot or charge most infantry units due to ITC terrain rules. But in most games they’re fricken amazing

What's special about ITC terrain rules?

From what i hear, No they didnt have ITC terrain in mind.

ITC rules for terrain are completely different, 100% different. You should just watch the update video for it. I did a fast google search, i watched only 2-3min but it seems like he is going over it well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBScGToqIR4

That's different, but not 100% different.

When it comes to their secondary score system, terrain system, it makes for a different game.

Players are making lists to deny points and you almost never care for the actual mission but secondaries.

That is completely different from GW's missions, there are lists that can win with GW and cant with ITC.

There are more points at stake with primary missions. You can't ignore them.

Yes, you might be able to deny a couple secondary points.

GW's missions are still too trivial for my taste. The new CA missions are okay, but still not very engaging to me. Also, shooting through windows and such is silly.

I will say that I don't like the concept of an "enclosed ruins".