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Kirby's chairman's preambles, singular sales reports. 7th edition and it's issues. Doom, fire, the end times of Games Workshop were coming in 2014, said a lot of users.

And then there was us, who said GW isn't going under. Labeled as white knights, apologists and what not because we were supposedly wrong. Back then I said we'll see in 4-5 years, and I'll remember to mention it. Keeping my promise!

Turns out we were right, and they were wrong, which is what I said back then already. Also glad I got a lot of GW stock back then when it was down. As far as I'm concerned, 40K is now better than ever, and GW as a company has come a long way in 4 years. Reading those old posts now, where people are dead certain GW is going down and shooting down any counter arguments just felt so funny now.

I even found a guy saying in a thread from 2014 that 8th edition might turn their boat around, and they might gamble by bringing back Specialist Games with new plastics. Talk about a prophet there.

I struggle with remembering last week these days, but pretty sure I did the growed up thing of moving on to playing other games rather than worrying one way or another about GW

I'm glad they didn't die means there is a slender chance they'll get good rather than merely not as bad as before

and you still care of forum ppls (trolls)? dont you see the quality or some topics? why wonder, there will be always someone so disappointed and upset by GW (most of time because they dont make their loved army a tier 1), so they preach gw's doom. Hardly you hear about that stuff from skilled players they come usually from the bottom of the barrel
Anyway after 7th edition flop most i think was ready to bet GW was in bad shape (and i admit i was thinking) but not sure the end of days. Gw will keep make rules and models for many years.

Yep, I was one of those people. I said, "if GW doesn't pull a major 180 on almost every single marketing decision they've been doing, they'll be dead within the decade".

And four years later, I was right. They fired Kirby, did the biggest overhaul of the game in its entire history and have been releasing new models and content on an unprecedented pace while finally entering the digital age in regards to community feedback and PR. All of which came together to save them from the brink.

I never did get that apology from the corporate apologists like the OP of this thread, though.

To be fair, at the end of 2014, that pretty much was the "end times" for GW, 40k had been dethroned as the top selling tabletop miniatures game for the first time since the 1980's and Fantasy had been outsold by competitors for several years, debacles with finecast meant substandard product, the game rules were at an indisputable low point in terms of quality and cohesion, the game scales of 40k and fantasy were spiraling out of control and exhausting the ability of people to get in, and the management involved had been doing squirrel-ey things for years like borrowing money so they could pay dividends. There wasn't much place to move *but* up if they were going to still exist at this point in time.

We can be glad they changed their approach, they're doing much better than they were in 6E/7E, but lets be real here, it took years, the length of several generations of average customers, and arguably there's still a long way to go, GW dug itself a big hole, and had to abandon and radically alter many of their practices.

I was really hoping Hasbro would buy out GW...

Doesn't GW have next to no debt, and massive amounts of assets? I know that was the case years ago. Not exactly a company in danger of bankruptcy.

Honestly, though, this just shows you'll accept mediocrity and praise it as the greatest thing since sliced bread. 40k might be "better", but it's still one of the worst designed games out there. It just has, unfortunately IMHO, shown that the GW fanbase doesn't care. So GW hasn't learned anything except they can throw a bone to it, and turn profits hand over fist.

I'm not sure that's something to be proud of. Sure they are doing a lot better than they did years ago, but they still have so much more they could be doing that they have no need to because their fans have shown having a good game isn't a very big concern to them.

 Runic wrote:
Kirby's chairman's preambles, singular sales reports. 7th edition and it's issues. Doom, fire, the end times of Games Workshop were coming in 2014, said a lot of users.

And then there was us, who said GW isn't going under. Labeled as white knights, apologists and what not because we were supposedly wrong. Back then I said we'll see in 4-5 years, and I'll remember to mention it. Keeping my promise!

Turns out we were right, and they were wrong, which is what I said back then already. Also glad I got a lot of GW stock back then when it was down. As far as I'm concerned, 40K is now better than ever, and GW as a company has come a long way in 4 years. Reading those old posts now, where people are dead certain GW is going down and shooting down any counter arguments just felt so funny now.

I even found a guy saying in a thread from 2014 that 8th edition might turn their boat around, and they might gamble by bringing back Specialist Games with new plastics. Talk about a prophet there.

All I remember seeing is people saying that GW is on a self destructive path that might eventually end it going under, that their way of handling a company is outdated, and that they need to do a massive revamp if they want to continue.

And look how that turned out.

I'm one of those people who gets labelled a white knight these days, for saying how great GW is doing with the game. But still I'm actually embarrassed for you for making this thread. Those sales reports were real whether you like them or not. You've completely dismissed the fact that if anything, the complaints that GW really needed to spin their management of the IP around for 40k to continue healthily, seem like they were hitting pretty close to the mark.

You don't get to say "I told you so!" to all the people who said GW needed to make drastic changes to stay successful, after GW made drastic changes and managed to remain successful.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Yep, I was one of those people. I said, "if GW doesn't pull a major 180 on almost every single marketing decision they've been doing, they'll be dead within the decade".

And four years later, I was right. They fired Kirby, did the biggest overhaul of the game in its entire history and have been releasing new models and content on an unprecedented pace while finally entering the digital age in regards to community feedback and PR. All of which came together to save them from the brink.

I never did get that apology from the corporate apologists like the OP of this thread, though.

Exactly. It's hardly proof that we were wrong when GW had to do a complete 180 on some things to get that recovery.

Wayniac wrote:
Honestly, though, this just shows you'll accept mediocrity and praise it as the greatest thing since sliced bread. 40k might be "better", but it's still one of the worst designed games out there. It just has, unfortunately IMHO, shown that the GW fanbase doesn't care. So GW hasn't learned anything except they can throw a bone to it, and turn profits hand over fist.

I'm not sure that's something to be proud of. Sure they are doing a lot better than they did years ago, but they still have so much more they could be doing that they have no need to because their fans have shown having a good game isn't a very big concern to them.

Go ahead. Do it better. The world is waiting.

 Runic wrote:
Kirby's chairman's preambles, singular sales reports. 7th edition and it's issues. Doom, fire, the end times of Games Workshop were coming in 2014, said a lot of users.

And then there was us, who said GW isn't going under. Labeled as white knights, apologists and what not because we were supposedly wrong. Back then I said we'll see in 4-5 years, and I'll remember to mention it. Keeping my promise!

Turns out we were right, and they were wrong, which is what I said back then already. Also glad I got a lot of GW stock back then when it was down. As far as I'm concerned, 40K is now better than ever, and GW as a company has come a long way in 4 years. Reading those old posts now, where people are dead certain GW is going down and shooting down any counter arguments just felt so funny now.

I even found a guy saying in a thread from 2014 that 8th edition might turn their boat around, and they might gamble by bringing back Specialist Games with new plastics. Talk about a prophet there.

That's because back then they were starting to go under. Player counts were dying off, other games were chewing into GW's market share, 7th edition was a joke, fantasy was dead on the vine, and GW's highest quality product was lawsuits. People hated the company and there was a widespread sentiment that GW just didn't care.

Shockingly, when you stop being a complete idiot and try to at least somewhat improve, customer relations improve. Shocking I know. Getting rid of Kirby, drastically improving customer relations (it's not fixed entirely, but definitely improved), attempting to give more bundles, launching a new edition, and attempting to actually address balance (hell the fact they acknowledge imbalance is an improvement) all helped right their problems.

To come in here and say "lol the fans are idiots,GW is fine," is to ignore that GW didn't fix it's problem until it actually aknowledged the stuff that we said was killing the game for years. If get had kept on the path they had, fantasy really would be dead and 40k would be in it's death throws within a decade.

They were going under. Why do you think the 'new GW' initiative happened?

They took a giant gamble on Sigmar and their 'we're a model company not a rules company' design process and it flopped utterly.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Yep, I was one of those people. I said, "if GW doesn't pull a major 180 on almost every single marketing decision they've been doing, they'll be dead within the decade".

And four years later, I was right. They fired Kirby, did the biggest overhaul of the game in its entire history and have been releasing new models and content on an unprecedented pace while finally entering the digital age in regards to community feedback and PR. All of which came together to save them from the brink.

I never did get that apology from the corporate apologists like the OP of this thread, though.

Exactly. It's hardly proof that we were wrong when GW had to do a complete 180 on some things to get that recovery.

It is proof however, that people still making such claims are wrong.

Know anybody like that?

People started doomsaying GW was going to die any minute now when Privateer launched warmachine and Confrontation was picking up steam. Back in the early 2000s.

It has never stopped since.

Yeah we said if they don't change course, and they did after giving Kirby the heave ho.

They were on a 10 year downward trend thanks to kirby, had he stayed in place we'd of been right.

It's funny how bringing back boardgames and improved customer interaction can change things, the very things we said gw needed to bring back.

GW would still be going under had they not had a RADICAL change of direction, and dont kid yourselves into thinking its anything less than a radical change for the company, zero marketing, terrible treatment of its core customers, insulting those customers, short sighted decisions, the list goes on and on.

The biggest change is marketing, and boy are they good at it now, they are making money hand over fist due to a excellent marketing team and actually paying attention to the consumer desires of the customer base, specialist games is a direct result of this.

TL/DR: Who'da thunk marketing works???

 Formosa wrote:
GW would still be going under had they not had a RADICAL change of direction, and dont kid yourselves into thinking its anything less than a radical change for the company, zero marketing, terrible treatment of its core customers, insulting those customers, short sighted decisions, the list goes on and on.

The biggest change is marketing, and boy are they good at it now, they are making money hand over fist due to a excellent marketing team and actually paying attention to the consumer desires of the customer base, specialist games is a direct result of this.

TL/DR: Who'da thunk marketing works???

Don't act as though it's super obvious that this edition would be a success, you're literally the person I think of when I think about people who argued the opposite. Like this gak here from July:

 Formosa wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. 8th is like the most popular edition of 40k of all time and is a massive success, people have reacted very positively to the changes at all levels of the game. There is a vocal minority you hear screaming about how it's no good, rest assured you will never see these people happy about it. They play the game to complain.

8th is the most popular edition ever eh? Can you prove that ?

A massive success ? Can you prove that? Can you prove that as the only marketed edition that is purely down to the rules?

People have reacted positively to the rules? Well that’s demonstably false, reactions have been mixed, leaning to the positive, but certainly not “at all levels of the game”

There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically.

We want a better game, we want the issues to be ironed out and to quote myself

“I Think 8th will eventually be the game I want to play, I feel like it’s still in the beta stages and given time it will develop into a good and well rounded game, then I will come back to it”

Hardly the screaming of a person who “plays to complain”

GW likely would sitll be going now even with Kirby in charge, however if they'd kept to their original AoS plans and not brought back specialist games they'd still be bleeding fans. Basically GW has a huge market influence and in countries like the UK they are the gateway company to the wargame market for fantasy (and I'd wager a fair few historicals come via the GW pathway). So that would likely have kept them going for a fairly long while; though they'd have been ever more and more dependent on the new fans.

Chances are if their profits kept going down the real downward spiral would have hit if they started closing stores to save money. As that would be shutting down their primary marketing means then.





Kirby was a slow death and even if the comapny didn't die it was certainly bleeding fans and money. Heck just look at how many 3rd parties started big kickstarters whilst GW was dwindling and how many are feeling the pinch now in sales. Kirby might not have been the deathnail but he wasn't growing the company.

Wayniac wrote:
Honestly, though, this just shows you'll accept mediocrity and praise it as the greatest thing since sliced bread. 40k might be "better", but it's still one of the worst designed games out there. It just has, unfortunately IMHO, shown that the GW fanbase doesn't care. So GW hasn't learned anything except they can throw a bone to it, and turn profits hand over fist.

I'm not sure that's something to be proud of. Sure they are doing a lot better than they did years ago, but they still have so much more they could be doing that they have no need to because their fans have shown having a good game isn't a very big concern to them.

For a lot of us 40k fans the game is only one small part of the hobby and the appeal. For me the story and the models are what have kept me coming back in spite of every edition being worse than second edition (which was perfect in all ways). Since then 8th is the best of the bunch. AoS has saved fantasy too. The new models are stunning and the setting is really getting fleshed out. I spend a lot more time building and painting and reading than I do playing.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
GW would still be going under had they not had a RADICAL change of direction, and dont kid yourselves into thinking its anything less than a radical change for the company, zero marketing, terrible treatment of its core customers, insulting those customers, short sighted decisions, the list goes on and on.

The biggest change is marketing, and boy are they good at it now, they are making money hand over fist due to a excellent marketing team and actually paying attention to the consumer desires of the customer base, specialist games is a direct result of this.

TL/DR: Who'da thunk marketing works???

Don't act as though it's super obvious that this edition would be a success, you're literally the person I think of when I think about people who argued the opposite. Like this gak here from July:

 Formosa wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. 8th is like the most popular edition of 40k of all time and is a massive success, people have reacted very positively to the changes at all levels of the game. There is a vocal minority you hear screaming about how it's no good, rest assured you will never see these people happy about it. They play the game to complain.

8th is the most popular edition ever eh? Can you prove that ?

A massive success ? Can you prove that? Can you prove that as the only marketed edition that is purely down to the rules?

People have reacted positively to the rules? Well that’s demonstably false, reactions have been mixed, leaning to the positive, but certainly not “at all levels of the game”

There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically.

We want a better game, we want the issues to be ironed out and to quote myself

“I Think 8th will eventually be the game I want to play, I feel like it’s still in the beta stages and given time it will develop into a good and well rounded game, then I will come back to it”

Hardly the screaming of a person who “plays to complain”

Thank you for showing I’m consistent, literally nothing I said there and back then contradicts itself.

But hey, you posted my quote for a reason, point out the inconsistency.

The inconsistency is you acting like the game wasnt a success at all back then, and now today acting like its blatantly obvious it would be a success. Lol.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The inconsistency is you acting like the game wasnt a success at all back then, and now today acting like its blatantly obvious it would be a success. Lol.

Then it should be easy for you to qoute me using the above post, please do so, as I maintain there is no inconsistency, quite the opposite in fact.

Once you have I can adress it, whether it’s actually an inconsistency or, more likely, you misinterpreting what I’ve said or inserting intent that is not there.

I just did quote the above post. I have no idea what straw you are trying to grasp at here, and I understand why you are trying, but you're not going to be able to backpedal out of it lol, just hold the L. It's right there half a scroll away.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I just did quote the above post. I have no idea what straw you are trying to grasp at here, and I understand why you are trying, but you're not going to be able to backpedal out of it lol, just hold the L. It's right there half a scroll away.

As I stated neither of those comments is inconsistent with the other, you maintain they are, so I’m asking you to point out which parts, if you cannot or are unwilling then I will just consider the matter closed and your comment to have no merit.

Okay let's go slowly here.


Today's post has you talking about how they are raking it in hand over fist, of course they are going to be successful after the radical change of tactics, who'd have thought marketing works, they just needed a revamp and a change of tactics, etc etc


But the post from a few months ago shows you as one of the few people who was still questioning the success of the company POST revamp, arguing that the main support of the current edition is a vocal minority and white knights, and that it only looks better because it's being marketed more not because people are actually supporting it more or happier with it.



it's fine to have a change of opinion, but it seems disingenuous to put it forth in the manner you did in this thread when you were one of the last people I saw still doomsaying 8th

Okay let's go slowly here

Ok

Today's post has you talking about how they are raking it in hand over fist

Correct

of course they are going to be successful after the radical change of tactics

Nope, its just turned out that way, it could have been a massive failure.

who'd have thought marketing works, they just needed a revamp and a change of tactics, etc etc

Yep

But the post from a few months ago shows you as one of the few people who was still questioning the success of the company POST revamp

Wrong.

"8th is the most popular edition ever eh? Can you prove that ?

A massive success ? Can you prove that? Can you prove that as the only marketed edition that is purely down to the rules? "

So, I am questioning the success being purely down to the "RULES" and questioning if its the most "popular edition ever", older Eds could have been more popular, had more people playing, money is not the only indicator of popularity.

I am/was not the only one questioning it either, a quick forum search will show you that.

arguing that the main support of the current edition is a vocal minority and white knights

Wrong

"There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically."

This clearly shows that the minority of the white knighters are unbearable due to refusing to see fault with the game, it in no way states they are the main support.

and that it only looks better because it's being marketed more not because people are actually supporting it more or happier with it.

Wrong

Nowhere in that statement does it say that, and it is being marketed more and this gets more eyeballs on it and more people through the door, the rules are irrelevent if no one ever even sees them, that is why marketing is so important.

"not because people are actually supporting it more or happier with it."

How many people left due to 8th? How many people came because of 8th? Note i never state either, you have put this in your own head, not me.

it's fine to have a change of opinion, but it seems disingenuous to put it forth in the manner you did in this thread when you were one of the last people I saw still doomsaying 8th

Its not a change of opinion, its a reading error on your behalf, you have assumed intent and meaning that clearly is not there, there is no doomsaying but a call for the core issue with the game to be fixed

“I Think 8th will eventually be the game I want to play, I feel like it’s still in the beta stages and given time it will develop into a good and well rounded game, then I will come back to it”

Hardly the screaming of a person who “plays to complain”

being the very last thing I stated, you are clearly wrong here, I have stated and continue to state that the radical shift in direction of the company and marketing are the main reasons that 8th is successful, the boom happened after a 15/20 year stagnation, the last time they had such a mass of marketing was from lord of the rings and it wasnt GW that did it, it had the same effect a massive rise in popularity that slowly petered out as the movies hype died down, this is slightly different as its GW actually doing the marketing now and they dont have to rely on a big budget movie to get seen.

Had this radical change not happened and the previous CEO was still in, I think GW would still be circling the drain.

As always, I'm not playing into this thing people do when they're on a rope and start indivually quoting every second sentence to try argue them out of context. It's transparent as hell and painful to read, format your post sensibly and I'll read it. If you're genuinely trying to argue that the post wasn't questioning the success of GW well past the revamp and also arguing that it was just looking better not doing better, then lol okay, whatever you say. This is already gone for longer than its worth

 SHUPPET wrote:
As always, I'm not playing into this thing people do when they're on a rope and start indivually quoting every second sentence to try argue them out of context. It's transparent as hell and painful to read, format your post sensibly and I'll read it. If you're genuinely trying to argue that the post wasn't questioning the success of GW well past the revamp and also arguing that it was just looking better not doing better, then lol okay, whatever you say. This is already gone for longer than its worth

So quoting you being wrong by using my own words that you quoted is me on the ropes

I addressed each of your points as you made them, if you don’t like that.. fair enough, as I said before there is no inconsistency and now you are trying to claim some moral ground for ignoring me when you have been shown to be wrong.

Anyway, other than that debacle.

Merry Christmas dakka!

Heh, I remember when people declared GW's fall when they completely dropped their forums. Heck, some were even congratulating themselves on driving the forum to destruction.